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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
On April 13 2012 23:00 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 22:47 Schwopzi wrote:On April 13 2012 22:27 ishboh wrote:On April 13 2012 19:40 De4ngus wrote:
ya lategame ashe scary as fuk. big dmg and arrows are op. i am trying to learn at least on character from each area (support, AD carry, solo top, junger, and mid) and ashe is my pick for AD carry. arrows are cool, and ashe has good damage, but it seems like their tank always runs straight into me and i end up getting zoned every team fight or I just die. without an escape it's really hard to survive team fights (malphite/udyr/mundo are usually the type of champs who get me). is this my fault or is it likely that my team should be doing more to protect me? i have been thinking of trying tristana instead for the jump just becuase my ashe gets focused to easily. Udyr & Mundo shouldnt give too much trouble with q maxed & phantom dancer speedboost; the main crux of kiting with ashe is not attacking as much as possible but as much as needed to keep up your slow. Malphite on the other hand has a awesome gapcloser; you just got to stay out of his ult range unless theres no chance of followup (ie he dived too far through your team to get to you). Mundo has a 35% MSpd stereoid, 20 more base MSpd than Ashe, 35% CC Reduction from W, a 40% slow skillshot (which either hits or forces you to dodge in a direction that is not straight away from Mundo), and is quite likely to wear a FoN. He sure as hell isn't easy to kite, even with maxed Ashe Q and red buff. If it's just Ashe vs Mundo, he'll catch up in no time.
The problem for mundo & udyr isn't the base stats; they have to go through your team to reach you and lacking blinklike abilities ashe can safely slow them. Gotta keep your team between you and them.
Can't really say who's fault it is if you get foccused down by mundo without actually seeing it happen because it can be your team not helping with peeling or you positioning badly
@ post above, you pick ez because you like femine looking boys or because corki is banned and you can only play 2 champions.
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On April 13 2012 20:41 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 20:31 Slayer91 wrote:On April 13 2012 20:22 Schwopzi wrote:On April 13 2012 19:30 Slayer91 wrote:On April 13 2012 19:21 Schwopzi wrote:On April 13 2012 19:16 Slayer91 wrote:
Ashes damage in practical circumstances is actually really high with just IE or IE PD because of good range, good animation, volley, and her slow. There's a reason vayne and kog aren't played every game. Endgame damage, not midgame ^^ Add LW and BT in there and the gap is even smaller. You saw hotshots cho with randunis and frozen heart melt in 5 seconds or less in hannover. In lategame being harder to catch with CC and having a huge slow means you do a lot more damage than carries with "more damage" in a lot of games. Nobody cares about your potential damage if everyone leaves you alone for 10 seconds. You don't see people playing rumble and fiddle and cass constantly because they do lots of damage lategame. Kog has huge range a nice slow and good poke, vayne has huge mobility and true damage, tristana has huge range and a 2 escapes. People play ashe for damage just as much as people play tristana for damage, and they all have their own utility. So basically you're saying her endgame damage is worse then any other carry but she can hit stuff easily, like i was saying as well. And the only games you'd do more damage in teamfights with ashe then other ads (with same farm) is when your team is lacking in disables; imo she shines in comps with vlad/shyvana type champs (low cc/high damage&tankiness) "And the only games you'd do more damage in teamfights with ashe then other ads (with same farm) is when your team is lacking in disables" Blatantly not true. AD carry isn't standing still and attacking people. You're the biggest threat on the game. If there's any opportunity at all to get to you they'll take it. You can say ashe does less damage on a target dummy but in a lot of teamfights ashe will get damage in where other ad carries might be zoned. If she is zoned, volley is a ridiculous range aoe poke and slow. Sure you can say well ashe theoretically does less damage per second maximum but if the question is on the viability of ashe and it's basing her as bad because she "does less damage" then I want that argument to be discarded. If ashe gets shut down in lane or versus bursty gap closer champs you can say sure, ashe is worse than escape ADs and will do very little damage, but with the non gap closer bruisers that are popular in jungle right now ashe is pretty damn good. ", in actual games (especially soloQ)" why would you randomly through in solo queue here? You can say other carries are MORE effective in solo queue because chances of weird positioned fights and people getting caught is more likely so you'll get to use your damage, while im competitive people are generally more close to together so things like CC range and escapes are all extremely important. Ashe was dropped when dignitas started running double assassins and everyone was playing jarvan and irelia, she started getting picked again now. I think if people stick to these double AP comps again MF might make a return. MF was a EU popular AD when both teams ran double AP aoe comps and mfs ult range allowed her to safely contribute to that and her speed was great for avoiding something like a kennen flash ult. Not to step on anybodies toes but is there an actual calculation of the flat dps between the different carries? I tried to find one and wasn't successful. I think another very important point about Ashe is, that you can't really disengage from her. The q is just to strong once it is maxed out. I also think that is what happened in the CLG/TSM games. Chaox arrows didn't even hit that often. But once he could aa someone, the person usually went down because they couldn't run away.
This is a few patches old, but I think the numbers are still pretty good:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx_rsd5bn-VTYTFiNjNlMjEtMmFlMy00YjRkLTlkMDYtNDdmMmY4YjE3ZDZl/edit
I think it's public so anyone can view it. The charts everyone wants start on ~page 50, but there's a lot of cool math and calculations beforehand. MF actually has pretty high lategame damage, but again her low range and lack of escape seem to be the thing holding her back.
Again, these are just damage numbers and calculations, so things like escapes, utility, and what not are not really inclusive.
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So wtf to do about Vlad? Seems like a pretty faceroll kinda champ...
I was playing shen, maxed shield first, bought 2 null-magics and he was still chunking me every time I walked near him.
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On April 14 2012 00:00 miicah wrote:
So wtf to do about Vlad? Seems like a pretty faceroll kinda champ...
I was playing shen, maxed shield first, bought 2 null-magics and he was still chunking me every time I walked near him.
Don't play someone with low damage output vs. Vlad is a good first rule of thumb.
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United States37500 Posts
On April 14 2012 00:19 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 00:00 miicah wrote:
So wtf to do about Vlad? Seems like a pretty faceroll kinda champ...
I was playing shen, maxed shield first, bought 2 null-magics and he was still chunking me every time I walked near him. Don't play someone with low damage output vs. Vlad is a good first rule of thumb.
In tandem with this, you want to burst Vlad more than he can heal within the first 5-7 levels. Keep him low so he loses lane control and eventually gets zoned.
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On April 13 2012 23:56 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 20:41 BlueSpace wrote:On April 13 2012 20:31 Slayer91 wrote:On April 13 2012 20:22 Schwopzi wrote:On April 13 2012 19:30 Slayer91 wrote:On April 13 2012 19:21 Schwopzi wrote:On April 13 2012 19:16 Slayer91 wrote:
Ashes damage in practical circumstances is actually really high with just IE or IE PD because of good range, good animation, volley, and her slow. There's a reason vayne and kog aren't played every game. Endgame damage, not midgame ^^ Add LW and BT in there and the gap is even smaller. You saw hotshots cho with randunis and frozen heart melt in 5 seconds or less in hannover. In lategame being harder to catch with CC and having a huge slow means you do a lot more damage than carries with "more damage" in a lot of games. Nobody cares about your potential damage if everyone leaves you alone for 10 seconds. You don't see people playing rumble and fiddle and cass constantly because they do lots of damage lategame. Kog has huge range a nice slow and good poke, vayne has huge mobility and true damage, tristana has huge range and a 2 escapes. People play ashe for damage just as much as people play tristana for damage, and they all have their own utility. So basically you're saying her endgame damage is worse then any other carry but she can hit stuff easily, like i was saying as well. And the only games you'd do more damage in teamfights with ashe then other ads (with same farm) is when your team is lacking in disables; imo she shines in comps with vlad/shyvana type champs (low cc/high damage&tankiness) "And the only games you'd do more damage in teamfights with ashe then other ads (with same farm) is when your team is lacking in disables" Blatantly not true. AD carry isn't standing still and attacking people. You're the biggest threat on the game. If there's any opportunity at all to get to you they'll take it. You can say ashe does less damage on a target dummy but in a lot of teamfights ashe will get damage in where other ad carries might be zoned. If she is zoned, volley is a ridiculous range aoe poke and slow. Sure you can say well ashe theoretically does less damage per second maximum but if the question is on the viability of ashe and it's basing her as bad because she "does less damage" then I want that argument to be discarded. If ashe gets shut down in lane or versus bursty gap closer champs you can say sure, ashe is worse than escape ADs and will do very little damage, but with the non gap closer bruisers that are popular in jungle right now ashe is pretty damn good. ", in actual games (especially soloQ)" why would you randomly through in solo queue here? You can say other carries are MORE effective in solo queue because chances of weird positioned fights and people getting caught is more likely so you'll get to use your damage, while im competitive people are generally more close to together so things like CC range and escapes are all extremely important. Ashe was dropped when dignitas started running double assassins and everyone was playing jarvan and irelia, she started getting picked again now. I think if people stick to these double AP comps again MF might make a return. MF was a EU popular AD when both teams ran double AP aoe comps and mfs ult range allowed her to safely contribute to that and her speed was great for avoiding something like a kennen flash ult. Not to step on anybodies toes but is there an actual calculation of the flat dps between the different carries? I tried to find one and wasn't successful. I think another very important point about Ashe is, that you can't really disengage from her. The q is just to strong once it is maxed out. I also think that is what happened in the CLG/TSM games. Chaox arrows didn't even hit that often. But once he could aa someone, the person usually went down because they couldn't run away. This is a few patches old, but I think the numbers are still pretty good: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx_rsd5bn-VTYTFiNjNlMjEtMmFlMy00YjRkLTlkMDYtNDdmMmY4YjE3ZDZl/editI think it's public so anyone can view it. The charts everyone wants start on ~page 50, but there's a lot of cool math and calculations beforehand. MF actually has pretty high lategame damage, but again her low range and lack of escape seem to be the thing holding her back. Again, these are just damage numbers and calculations, so things like escapes, utility, and what not are not really inclusive.
He doesn't use items either. I think kayle has the highest sustained 10 second dps of all champions given noninfinite time to stack things. With E and Q she should have 3/4k dps?
She has 2.6k deeps with this setup. Doesn't count her passive or green pots.
http://leaguecraft.com/builder/kayle/?items=60,89,89,33,73,64&runes=45,45,45,45,45,45,45,45,45,92,92,92,92,92,92,92,92,92,14,14,14,14,14,14,14,14,14,77,77,77&level=18&masteries=0302400410313030100000000000000000000000000000000
1.614*(60+1.4*(364*(1-.9337)+364*.9337*2.8544) )*1.1
attack speeed*(base e damage + base e scaling *( (non crit damage *chance of noncrit) + (crit damage*chance of crit) ) * Q scaling.
http://leaguecraft.com/builder/kayle/?items=60,89,89,73,73,73&runes=45,45,45,45,45,45,45,45,45,92,92,92,92,92,92,92,92,92,14,14,14,14,14,14,14,14,14,77,77,77&level=18&masteries=0302400410313030100000000000000000000000000000000
This is with a retarded setup. Still no soto or pots.
1.614*(60+ 1.4*(524*(1-.9337)+524*.9337*2.8544) )*1.1
3.7k deeps ^_^
edit: this is wrong. too much uptime on Q
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On April 13 2012 23:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
They are always watching...
Which makes it VERY odd that I havent eaten like 17 thousand temp bans.
Too bad I was in champ select so I posted fast in between games and didn't notice I posted in wrong thread XD My second warning since I have joined in 2003 so not too bad hehe.
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how does rumble do against vlad?
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On April 14 2012 00:55 wei2coolman wrote:
how does rumble do against vlad?
I think Vlad wins it. Ramble takes too long to ramp up and sucks vs. sustained long range damage.
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On April 13 2012 23:56 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 20:41 BlueSpace wrote:On April 13 2012 20:31 Slayer91 wrote:On April 13 2012 20:22 Schwopzi wrote:On April 13 2012 19:30 Slayer91 wrote:On April 13 2012 19:21 Schwopzi wrote:On April 13 2012 19:16 Slayer91 wrote:
Ashes damage in practical circumstances is actually really high with just IE or IE PD because of good range, good animation, volley, and her slow. There's a reason vayne and kog aren't played every game. Endgame damage, not midgame ^^ Add LW and BT in there and the gap is even smaller. You saw hotshots cho with randunis and frozen heart melt in 5 seconds or less in hannover. In lategame being harder to catch with CC and having a huge slow means you do a lot more damage than carries with "more damage" in a lot of games. Nobody cares about your potential damage if everyone leaves you alone for 10 seconds. You don't see people playing rumble and fiddle and cass constantly because they do lots of damage lategame. Kog has huge range a nice slow and good poke, vayne has huge mobility and true damage, tristana has huge range and a 2 escapes. People play ashe for damage just as much as people play tristana for damage, and they all have their own utility. So basically you're saying her endgame damage is worse then any other carry but she can hit stuff easily, like i was saying as well. And the only games you'd do more damage in teamfights with ashe then other ads (with same farm) is when your team is lacking in disables; imo she shines in comps with vlad/shyvana type champs (low cc/high damage&tankiness) "And the only games you'd do more damage in teamfights with ashe then other ads (with same farm) is when your team is lacking in disables" Blatantly not true. AD carry isn't standing still and attacking people. You're the biggest threat on the game. If there's any opportunity at all to get to you they'll take it. You can say ashe does less damage on a target dummy but in a lot of teamfights ashe will get damage in where other ad carries might be zoned. If she is zoned, volley is a ridiculous range aoe poke and slow. Sure you can say well ashe theoretically does less damage per second maximum but if the question is on the viability of ashe and it's basing her as bad because she "does less damage" then I want that argument to be discarded. If ashe gets shut down in lane or versus bursty gap closer champs you can say sure, ashe is worse than escape ADs and will do very little damage, but with the non gap closer bruisers that are popular in jungle right now ashe is pretty damn good. ", in actual games (especially soloQ)" why would you randomly through in solo queue here? You can say other carries are MORE effective in solo queue because chances of weird positioned fights and people getting caught is more likely so you'll get to use your damage, while im competitive people are generally more close to together so things like CC range and escapes are all extremely important. Ashe was dropped when dignitas started running double assassins and everyone was playing jarvan and irelia, she started getting picked again now. I think if people stick to these double AP comps again MF might make a return. MF was a EU popular AD when both teams ran double AP aoe comps and mfs ult range allowed her to safely contribute to that and her speed was great for avoiding something like a kennen flash ult. Not to step on anybodies toes but is there an actual calculation of the flat dps between the different carries? I tried to find one and wasn't successful. I think another very important point about Ashe is, that you can't really disengage from her. The q is just to strong once it is maxed out. I also think that is what happened in the CLG/TSM games. Chaox arrows didn't even hit that often. But once he could aa someone, the person usually went down because they couldn't run away. This is a few patches old, but I think the numbers are still pretty good: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx_rsd5bn-VTYTFiNjNlMjEtMmFlMy00YjRkLTlkMDYtNDdmMmY4YjE3ZDZl/editI think it's public so anyone can view it. The charts everyone wants start on ~page 50, but there's a lot of cool math and calculations beforehand. MF actually has pretty high lategame damage, but again her low range and lack of escape seem to be the thing holding her back. Again, these are just damage numbers and calculations, so things like escapes, utility, and what not are not really inclusive.
Just makes Ez look even worse than I thought.
He needs a remake, because the difficulty/reward ratio is way off.
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Lane Fiddlesticks amusingly beats the shit out of Vlad. As far as typical top laners go the only champs I can see who can really harass vlad enough early are Nid, Yorick and maybe Pantheon and Talon if you want to consider less typical ones. Obviously Kennen does just fine vs Vlad, too.
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Lane Fiddle is like lane yi. if you don't have a disable to stop his heal, he's pretty fucking immovable.
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Ez is close enough to the other AD carries that a full remake is probably unnecessary. A few tweaks perhaps, but no more than that.
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Doesn't Drain stay on Vlad through his pool, too?
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On April 14 2012 00:55 Mogwai wrote:I think Vlad wins it. Ramble takes too long to ramp up and sucks vs. sustained long range damage.
Although one gank can throw the lane either way. Most vlads push the lane to your tower pretty fast and rumble actually can chase the pool at early levels (I save my E for after he goes out of pool) I've gotten multiple kills with early ganks while I'm rumble vs vlad and if you can get a small advantage (and a revolver) you should be able to start outtrading whenever vlad comes in to cs. He can't spellvamp back up if you engage on him every time he tries to CS.
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On April 14 2012 01:10 Seuss wrote:
Ez is close enough to the other AD carries that a full remake is probably unnecessary. A few tweaks perhaps, but no more than that.
Suggestions?
I'd look at W, and Passive, but that is just me.
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On April 14 2012 01:12 Mogwai wrote:
yes
See, it's hilarious because everything fiddles does shits on Vlad. Drop CCs all over his ass if he tries to farm and Drain him the second he gets in range. It's pretty funny but mostly impractical because you're, well, fiddlesticks.
I'd imagine Swain does fine vs Vlad, too. They're both kind of short range and I'd imagine Swain can stick it out in a fight with Vlad.
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Do Fiddle's ult or Karthus' AoE damage through pool? I know they still destroy Fiora during her ult.
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Swain's one of the most well known vlad counters.
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EPT
