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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On April 13 2012 21:46 dooraven wrote: Froggen invents yet another build for anivia lol: trinity force leviathan hextech gunbalde randuins merc threads archangles. to be fair this build has more ap than he usually builds | ||
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Goshawk.
United Kingdom5338 Posts
New Asian cup starting. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On April 13 2012 22:31 spinesheath wrote: Her Q also has an extremely long cast animation. At lvl 18 with a PD and Berserker's Greaves, I wouldn't be surprised if you actually LOST damage by using Q (assuming you could freely autoattack otherwise of course). Not to mention if we want to play around with q's Ezreals is an over 100% damage increase. | ||
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Schwopzi
Netherlands954 Posts
On April 13 2012 22:27 ishboh wrote: i am trying to learn at least on character from each area (support, AD carry, solo top, junger, and mid) and ashe is my pick for AD carry. arrows are cool, and ashe has good damage, but it seems like their tank always runs straight into me and i end up getting zoned every team fight or I just die. without an escape it's really hard to survive team fights (malphite/udyr/mundo are usually the type of champs who get me). is this my fault or is it likely that my team should be doing more to protect me? i have been thinking of trying tristana instead for the jump just becuase my ashe gets focused to easily. Udyr & Mundo shouldnt give too much trouble with q maxed & phantom dancer speedboost; the main crux of kiting with ashe is not attacking as much as possible but as much as needed to keep up your slow. Malphite on the other hand has a awesome gapcloser; you just got to stay out of his ult range unless theres no chance of followup (ie he dived too far through your team to get to you). | ||
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BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
On April 13 2012 22:31 spinesheath wrote: Her Q also has an extremely long cast animation. At lvl 18 with a PD and Berserker's Greaves, I wouldn't be surprised if you actually LOST damage by using Q (assuming you could freely autoattack otherwise of course). If you actually try to kite the tank and focus squishier targets as soon as they get in range by themselves, it's your team. If you try to attack something else behind the enemy tank (assuming he's a threat to you), it's your fault. Sadly people have this "DONT FOCUS THE TANK", "FOCUS THE AD/AP" crap burnt into their minds. Often focusing the tank IS the best thing your team can do until a squishier enemy brings himself into range. Well it all depends on what you mean by focus. When there is nothing else to aa, then by all means shoot the tank, but this "Don't focus the tank line" has more to do with overzealous APs, that blow all their cd on the tank and then become useless for the entire fight. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On April 13 2012 22:31 spinesheath wrote: Her Q also has an extremely long cast animation. At lvl 18 with a PD and Berserker's Greaves, I wouldn't be surprised if you actually LOST damage by using Q (assuming you could freely autoattack otherwise of course). Well even if it's long (which would be pretty huge) as long as it's timed right after an auto the extra damage probably offsets the lost DPS from another auto attack and it gives you stealth which is pretty valuable. Seems a wash. For the record though IE Ez does do slightly more damage overall if he is spamming Qs and landing them, but not a whole lot (aside from the AS gain from passive). This kind of thing is the reason why I like making spreadsheets. People on TL like to talk a lot about blah A affecting blah B without delving into numbers even when numbers would be an obvious answer to the question. While it's hard to say how valuable Randuin's active is from a numbers standpoint this question about whether there actually exists DPS loss from Vayne Q would be pitifully easy to answer if I could just find my old spreadsheet and measure the length of the tumble animation. Meanwhile if I could answer it it'd be a useful thing for vayne players to know for their late game. | ||
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Praetorial
United States4241 Posts
On April 13 2012 22:32 turdburgler wrote: to be fair this build has more ap than he usually builds How does he get away with it? I just build straight AP on Anivia, is Froggen just so good that he can make up weird builds and still do fantastic? | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On April 13 2012 22:47 Schwopzi wrote: Udyr & Mundo shouldnt give too much trouble with q maxed & phantom dancer speedboost; the main crux of kiting with ashe is not attacking as much as possible but as much as needed to keep up your slow. Malphite on the other hand has a awesome gapcloser; you just got to stay out of his ult range unless theres no chance of followup (ie he dived too far through your team to get to you). Mundo has a 35% MSpd stereoid, 20 more base MSpd than Ashe, 35% CC Reduction from W, a 40% slow skillshot (which either hits or forces you to dodge in a direction that is not straight away from Mundo), and is quite likely to wear a FoN. He sure as hell isn't easy to kite, even with maxed Ashe Q and red buff. If it's just Ashe vs Mundo, he'll catch up in no time. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On April 13 2012 23:00 Praetorial wrote: How does he get away with it? I just build straight AP on Anivia, is Froggen just so good that he can make up weird builds and still do fantastic? I'm just starting to believe that Anivia can do absolutely everything. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On April 13 2012 23:00 Praetorial wrote: How does he get away with it? I just build straight AP on Anivia, is Froggen just so good that he can make up weird builds and still do fantastic? walls slows and stuns dont scale off ap. On April 13 2012 22:58 phyvo wrote: Well even if it's long (which would be pretty huge) as long as it's timed right after an auto the extra damage probably offsets the lost DPS from another auto attack and it gives you stealth which is pretty valuable. Seems a wash. For the record though IE Ez does do slightly more damage overall if he is spamming Qs and landing them, but not a whole lot (aside from the AS gain from passive). This kind of thing is the reason why I like making spreadsheets. People on TL like to talk a lot about blah A affecting blah B without delving into numbers even when numbers would be an obvious answer to the question. While it's hard to say how valuable Randuin's active is from a numbers standpoint this question about whether there actually exists DPS loss from Vayne Q would be pitifully easy to answer if I could just find my old spreadsheet and measure the length of the tumble animation. Meanwhile if I could answer it it'd be a useful thing for vayne players to know for their late game. i dont see how a phantom dancer can be more dps than a triforce for ezreal. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On April 13 2012 22:19 phyvo wrote: I once made a spreadsheet comparing 6 item AD carries. I can't find it now but carries varied in max DPS from 600 to 900, with ashe at the bottom and Vayne significantly at top. Kog below vayne, way below an ulting vayne (who hit something like 1000). Other carries did not have as much difference between them and sat between 650 and 800. Against tanks OFC since that's the line you're trying to break. This was all with IE focused builds because anyone (like corki/ez) who uses triforce in a 6 item build loses so much raw DPS it's not even close to fair. Given what I remember of the spreadsheet, then, Ashe matching up with most other DPS champs lategame is pretty plausible. For the mid-high end she just has to get 25% more opportunities to attack which is pretty plausible in a kiting scenario. I don't think she realistically does more DPS than Trist or Vayne though, Kog maybe if only because he's W reliant and it can screw his positioning if it wears off at the wrong time. I just want to point out that 600 dps is very low and just comes from an IE and 2 PD's iirc. 6 item ads get dpses high into the one thousands. Even ashe. If they're getting a GA the dps is lower. I never bothered with the damage calculations as there are a lot of variables as stated that are hard to calculate like ashe's first attack critting and vayne's tumble but I do agree that items provide most of the dps. Vayne may have a 50% damage increase on a 2 second cooldown but she should be firing 4 shots in that time frame. Tumbling actually lowers her dps because the animation doesn't let her autoattack once she gets enough items. Not to mention if you put it like that kayle has a 40% autoattack steroid on a 0 second timer. In the end it's better to study replays than to do damage calculations imo since replays play out actual game scenarios. | ||
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zodde
Sweden1908 Posts
On April 13 2012 23:06 turdburgler wrote: walls slows and stuns dont scale off ap. i dont see how a phantom dancer can be more dps than a triforce for ezreal. Yeah I'd like to see the math behind this as well. You need to use spells as ezreal to keep your passive up, even if using Q might (no idea here) be a dps loss. So it's 30 ad + sheen proc vs 25% attack speed and 15% crit. Dunno, triforce definitely seems like the better item overall when you count the mana, health and phage proc. Pure dps target dummy scenario Pdancer could win. @ BlueSpace: I'd love to see the math behind it, been thinking of doing it myself but I haven't had the time (or motivation) to do it yet. EDIT about Anivia: Yeah she's a beast because of her utility (cc), not her damage. If you fight in the jungle, one good wall could be game. When ganking/assisting a gank, one good wall/stun combo is a kill. Froggen just trolls to the max because he knows he can play anivia CC-bot and let give his team free kills, or even outplay people so much that he doesn't need the AP. Kind of insane how he can do it, hopefully we will see more good anivias pop up in the pro-scene (jiji perhaps?). | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
The purpose of putting an AP mid is to give them experience and farm so they can carry the midgame tempo and 1shot squishies if ever given the chance. The point of putting an AD carry bot with a support is because AD carries don't need levels as much as they need gold. The purpose of putting the support bot is to help with dragon fights and to make sure the AD carry gets fed to carry the late game tempo. The point of the bruiser top confuses me a bit though. Is it because the team needs a bruiser to be balanced and to get APs? Or because the bruiser is hardest to kill in a gank and top is easy to gank? Or because top lane is hard to gank therefore people just farm a lot and sustainy champions farm best? Of course there are also variations like putting an AP/AD top to abuse the melee range of bruisers and zone them, and for the double wota sustain. Then the point of having a tanky jungler is to sustain in the jungle, and to help the bruiser top absorb some damage. I feel like understanding the meta is very important because I was thinking about how everyone plays the meta but some people cs like crazy as supports thinking they need to keep everyone sustained. I don't think they understand the meta or that farmed champs can generally sustain themselves better than farmed supports late game. Then I got to thinking, I don't understand why people do things that are meta to begin with. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
On April 13 2012 23:34 koreasilver wrote: I thought the rule of thumb for AD carries was that once you have finished your BT item + PD auto attacking was always always better than using your skills when it comes to damage (steroids are included here), with skills only being used for CC, poking, and escape purposes. Like Vayne's Q, for example, is useful in teamfights mostly due to its low CD re-positioning power, especially with ult up. The 60% autoattack increase also scales off crit, for what it's worth. But yes, it's mainly for the repositioning and tactical stealth disengage. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On April 13 2012 23:34 koreasilver wrote: I thought the rule of thumb for AD carries was that once you have finished your BT item + PD auto attacking was always always better than using your skills when it comes to damage (steroids are included here), with skills only being used for CC, poking, and escape purposes. Like Vayne's Q, for example, is useful in teamfights mostly due to its low CD re-positioning power, especially with ult up. Stuff like Sivir's Ricochet should be obvious: Resets auto attack timer, almost no cast time: Clearly increases your DPS. Long range skills, preferably AoE: You can hit squishies further back with those for huge amounts of damage (Peacemaker, Volley, Buckshot, Boomerang Blade). Definitely worth it (if you don't die because of it). If all you can hit is the tank you're autoattacking anyways? Might not be useful. @below me: QQ thread. 6700 posts man, you should know better. Whoa that warning came swiftly. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
Sorry about that mods. User was warned for this post | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Which makes it VERY odd that I havent eaten like 17 thousand temp bans. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 13 2012 23:20 zodde wrote: Yeah I'd like to see the math behind this as well. You need to use spells as ezreal to keep your passive up, even if using Q might (no idea here) be a dps loss. So it's 30 ad + sheen proc vs 25% attack speed and 15% crit. Dunno, triforce definitely seems like the better item overall when you count the mana, health and phage proc. Pure dps target dummy scenario Pdancer could win. @ BlueSpace: I'd love to see the math behind it, been thinking of doing it myself but I haven't had the time (or motivation) to do it yet. EDIT about Anivia: Yeah she's a beast because of her utility (cc), not her damage. If you fight in the jungle, one good wall could be game. When ganking/assisting a gank, one good wall/stun combo is a kill. Froggen just trolls to the max because he knows he can play anivia CC-bot and let give his team free kills, or even outplay people so much that he doesn't need the AP. Kind of insane how he can do it, hopefully we will see more good anivias pop up in the pro-scene (jiji perhaps?). Can someone explain to me why I should even pick Ez other than his ult (which seems less attractive every time I watch a game)? Rising spell force is such an annoyance when poking towers. 6 Seconds is way too short for something he is essentially balanced around and minions just vaporize and W sucks. | ||
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