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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
On April 12 2012 04:38 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 04:35 UniversalSnip wrote:On April 12 2012 04:04 PartyBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2012 03:34 UniversalSnip wrote:
personally i wish supports got a lot more gold than they do, i just don't think there's any way around the fact that starving for gold isn't particularly fun. At the same, the old double cc bot comps were not very fun to play because you were competing with your lane partner for farm which is frustrating. There's also the fact many of the supports are just really boring, they should pretty much all be aggressive ccers with heals that are at best shitty. Add on to that the fact that support items are restrictive (wow I'm building philo this game, can you believe it? Only the 800th time ive done that) and boring (every single support item but shurelya's is low risk low reward. Aegis for example is an incredibly boring item). ON TOP OF THAT support is hard to play, but the higher difficulty doesn't translate into higher impact on the game. The decisions are high risk and relatively complex but that doesn't mean your team gets rewarded proportionately when you get them right. Put all this together and you just have a really shitty role that people hate and want to avoid. What would they buy if they weren't limited by gold though? I think it would change the game fairly drastically if Janna was reliably able to get more than 1-2 big ticket support items a game (Reverie/Aegis), would she just stack armour on Frozen Heart or go hybrid AP? LoL doesn't feel very gold starved at all with gold mastery/rune options/gp5 provide more than enough to buy your support items and wards. League has very limited options in terms of what supports can build and I don't think that's going to change without a change to the game itself. If I get ahead in League as (again say Janna), I can basically just rush by gp5s and have my support items faster, there is no item path deviation. In DOTA for a pub, it's more likely you can buy much more impactful items if you get ahead because supports can buy TPs and almost all are gankers as well. if you don't feel the gold pinch, it's because you're not buying enough wards. Wards are actually so cheap it makes sense to just spend all your gold on them, i actually think supports would get more items if wards were MORE expensive. There are a lot ways having more items could make playing support more fun, because it would change the playstyle and open up a lot of options. Think about janna - you could go ap to make your spells bigger, sunfire for getting right into the middle of a fight and disrupting, or auras for traditional play. What about deathfire alistar, or support blitz actually being good? These seem silly right now because they're out of the realm of possibility, but gold makes cool stuff happen. I garuntee you that people would still complain about support being boring/not fun if they got a free item at the 20 minute mark. Items dont change the fact that everything leading up to that point is boring as hell.
my annoyance as support is that after about 10 minutes its so much harder to harras etc and make a difference in lane because 1 shot from the ad almost kills you
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On April 12 2012 04:36 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 04:29 spinesheath wrote:On April 12 2012 04:24 TheKefka wrote:
Well you can make fun of it all you want,but even Xspecial said that they lost bot lanes in IPL because the other bot lane pair had a summoner up on them.I don't see why its a bad idea to run that extra heal summoner on a champion that revolves around healing people lol. So that wasn't trolling? Because support Soraka stays in the back, so she doesn't take much damage. Therefore she doesn't need the Heal for herself. However, 2 Heals don't stack well (you get a debuff once you get healed by Summoner Heal so the next Heal heals for less. Soraka would also only heal an ally for half the amount which is pretty weak. Exhaust is going to be way more useful than that. Ignite as well. Hell, even Promote should be better than that. The heal debuff doesn't affect soraka's heal spells. The heal debuff only applies to other summoner heals. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Heal
That's why I capitalized Heal in "the next Heal". I was talking about 2 Summoner Heals. When you take only 1 Heal, you will always take Heal on the AD unless the AD absolutely needs say Cleanse+Flash since the AD needs the full heal amount, not the support. Therefore if you say Heal on Soraka, I assume you mean 2 Summoner Heal in one lane. Which is bad.
Also what Slayer91 said.
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TOO too cute, "i'm lane taxing this shit", only takes 1 creep from mid >.>. LOL.
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From my point of view one of the main issues with support is the solo queue issue.
I love playing support for a good AD carry because I actually took the time to learn it and I take CV. Since I've been maining jungle for a while 90% of my CVs will spot their jungler or their team heading to an objective and if my ad knows how/when to follow my initiations we can just snowball the lane (this is specially true with someone like janna/alistar) it used to be true with sona but the level 1 nerf on her Q and passive actually made a huge difference.
Instead when playing solo queue I'm stuck with an AD carry who can't cs and over extends all the time while expecting me to be as dumb as him. When I play AD carry I'm stuck with e.g. janna who starts dorans ring, shields herself and spams q to push the lane every time its off CD. I tend to avoid bottom lane lately because of this. In fact, bot lane should be reserved for duo queues with good communication.
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On April 12 2012 04:56 wei2coolman wrote:
TOO too cute, "i'm lane taxing this shit", only takes 1 creep from mid >.>. LOL.
Farming Game: The OddOne Edition
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On April 12 2012 04:42 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 04:38 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 12 2012 04:35 UniversalSnip wrote:On April 12 2012 04:04 PartyBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2012 03:34 UniversalSnip wrote:
personally i wish supports got a lot more gold than they do, i just don't think there's any way around the fact that starving for gold isn't particularly fun. At the same, the old double cc bot comps were not very fun to play because you were competing with your lane partner for farm which is frustrating. There's also the fact many of the supports are just really boring, they should pretty much all be aggressive ccers with heals that are at best shitty. Add on to that the fact that support items are restrictive (wow I'm building philo this game, can you believe it? Only the 800th time ive done that) and boring (every single support item but shurelya's is low risk low reward. Aegis for example is an incredibly boring item). ON TOP OF THAT support is hard to play, but the higher difficulty doesn't translate into higher impact on the game. The decisions are high risk and relatively complex but that doesn't mean your team gets rewarded proportionately when you get them right. Put all this together and you just have a really shitty role that people hate and want to avoid. What would they buy if they weren't limited by gold though? I think it would change the game fairly drastically if Janna was reliably able to get more than 1-2 big ticket support items a game (Reverie/Aegis), would she just stack armour on Frozen Heart or go hybrid AP? LoL doesn't feel very gold starved at all with gold mastery/rune options/gp5 provide more than enough to buy your support items and wards. League has very limited options in terms of what supports can build and I don't think that's going to change without a change to the game itself. If I get ahead in League as (again say Janna), I can basically just rush by gp5s and have my support items faster, there is no item path deviation. In DOTA for a pub, it's more likely you can buy much more impactful items if you get ahead because supports can buy TPs and almost all are gankers as well. if you don't feel the gold pinch, it's because you're not buying enough wards. Wards are actually so cheap it makes sense to just spend all your gold on them, i actually think supports would get more items if wards were MORE expensive. There are a lot ways having more items could make playing support more fun, because it would change the playstyle and open up a lot of options. Think about janna - you could go ap to make your spells bigger, sunfire for getting right into the middle of a fight and disrupting, or auras for traditional play. What about deathfire alistar, or support blitz actually being good? These seem silly right now because they're out of the realm of possibility, but gold makes cool stuff happen. I garuntee you that people would still complain about support being boring/not fun if they got a free item at the 20 minute mark. Items dont change the fact that everything leading up to that point is boring as hell. ... So? I cited like 30 reasons playing support sucks, i'm well aware there 29 other ones. Don't see your point
I dont like the idea that everything seems to boil down to with support: that the answer to ALL the problems is that they just dont get enough gold.
It isnt GOLD that is the issue IMO. People look at the whole support thing and see that they are bored, and they dont buy items, put the 2 together and say "oh look every other role is fun, every other role gets to buy an item, so therefore if you let supports buy items it automatically becomes fun!"
That logic seems faulty to me. Items dont make janna better at bouncing people around and ccing. Soraka and sona dont need them to be annoying as shit in lane. Supports dont need items to do what they need to do. I dont think adding items necessarily makes them more fun because they STILL would do the same exact shit. Sure, soraka with an ap item can heal for an extra 50 health. That doesnt change the fact that you still are doing nothing but healing, or the fact that early laning is STILL gonna be boring as hell, even if you get extra gold.
I think what really needs to be changed is the action and expectations. You wanna play blitz or morg? Forget gold, imagine if roaming was back. They instantly jump into viability. And instead of being fun to play at minute 15 with an item, they reward skill from minute 1 on. And with more action comes the opportunity to get more gold: picking up creeps when someone leaves, grabbing exp from kills, ect.
So thats what I was picking at in your post. The idea that Janna without items is not fun, but a janna with a sunfire or a void staff is somehow MORE fun.
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Janna is the only support I have fun playing. It's always fun to bait entire enemy team, and kite them for hella days.
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On April 12 2012 05:10 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote:
From my point of view one of the main issues with support is the solo queue issue.
I love playing support for a good AD carry because I actually took the time to learn it and I take CV. Since I've been maining jungle for a while 90% of my CVs will spot their jungler or their team heading to an objective and if my ad knows how/when to follow my initiations we can just snowball the lane (this is specially true with someone like janna/alistar) it used to be true with sona but the level 1 nerf on her Q and passive actually made a huge difference.
Instead when playing solo queue I'm stuck with an AD carry who can't cs and over extends all the time while expecting me to be as dumb as him. When I play AD carry I'm stuck with e.g. janna who starts dorans ring, shields herself and spams q to push the lane every time its off CD. I tend to avoid bottom lane lately because of this. In fact, bot lane should be reserved for duo queues with good communication.
My mentality in duo queue is that you'll have two lanes that don't feed if one of you takes top and the other takes mid.
On topic, I thought that people actually didn't mind playing support when I asked about it a few months ago. Personally I hate it.
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On April 12 2012 05:13 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 04:42 UniversalSnip wrote:On April 12 2012 04:38 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 12 2012 04:35 UniversalSnip wrote:On April 12 2012 04:04 PartyBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2012 03:34 UniversalSnip wrote:
personally i wish supports got a lot more gold than they do, i just don't think there's any way around the fact that starving for gold isn't particularly fun. At the same, the old double cc bot comps were not very fun to play because you were competing with your lane partner for farm which is frustrating. There's also the fact many of the supports are just really boring, they should pretty much all be aggressive ccers with heals that are at best shitty. Add on to that the fact that support items are restrictive (wow I'm building philo this game, can you believe it? Only the 800th time ive done that) and boring (every single support item but shurelya's is low risk low reward. Aegis for example is an incredibly boring item). ON TOP OF THAT support is hard to play, but the higher difficulty doesn't translate into higher impact on the game. The decisions are high risk and relatively complex but that doesn't mean your team gets rewarded proportionately when you get them right. Put all this together and you just have a really shitty role that people hate and want to avoid. What would they buy if they weren't limited by gold though? I think it would change the game fairly drastically if Janna was reliably able to get more than 1-2 big ticket support items a game (Reverie/Aegis), would she just stack armour on Frozen Heart or go hybrid AP? LoL doesn't feel very gold starved at all with gold mastery/rune options/gp5 provide more than enough to buy your support items and wards. League has very limited options in terms of what supports can build and I don't think that's going to change without a change to the game itself. If I get ahead in League as (again say Janna), I can basically just rush by gp5s and have my support items faster, there is no item path deviation. In DOTA for a pub, it's more likely you can buy much more impactful items if you get ahead because supports can buy TPs and almost all are gankers as well. if you don't feel the gold pinch, it's because you're not buying enough wards. Wards are actually so cheap it makes sense to just spend all your gold on them, i actually think supports would get more items if wards were MORE expensive. There are a lot ways having more items could make playing support more fun, because it would change the playstyle and open up a lot of options. Think about janna - you could go ap to make your spells bigger, sunfire for getting right into the middle of a fight and disrupting, or auras for traditional play. What about deathfire alistar, or support blitz actually being good? These seem silly right now because they're out of the realm of possibility, but gold makes cool stuff happen. I garuntee you that people would still complain about support being boring/not fun if they got a free item at the 20 minute mark. Items dont change the fact that everything leading up to that point is boring as hell. ... So? I cited like 30 reasons playing support sucks, i'm well aware there 29 other ones. Don't see your point I dont like the idea that everything seems to boil down to with support: that the answer to ALL the problems is that they just dont get enough gold.
I can't tell if you're deliberately misunderstanding me or what. It makes me really not want to discuss things with you when you draw the most retarded conclusions from what I'm saying.
I agree adding more roaming could be cool. I'm not sure why riot hated roaming to start with to be honest. There's a certain point where there's just too much gank presence, I guess they don't want to go over that.
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Riot didn't hate roaming, they didn't kill it. Support + Ranged AD butchering everything you could try to run in bot lane killed roaming.
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There are plenty of people who enjoy playing support. It's fine as it is. Well, you might need to actually understand what you are doing and how a duo lane works in detail to enjoy it, while exploding people with a burst caster or wiping whole teams with a fed bruiser are cheap sources of fun for the vast majority of players.
And isn't top lane pretty damn boring most of the time as well? Or how is PvE 70% of the game that much fun?
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On April 12 2012 05:27 Mogwai wrote:
Riot didn't hate roaming, they didn't kill it. Support + Ranged AD butchering everything you could try to run in bot lane killed roaming.
I think the new exp changes could help push back if a roamer can get a huge level boost by sucessfully converting a gank.
The REAL thing that killed any sort of roam was Riot destroying 1v2 exp gain in their misguided attempts to make jungling not necessary. Makes it way to hard to play safe and give up a bit of farm but get levels. Now you dont get farm OR levels.
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On April 12 2012 05:27 Mogwai wrote:
Riot didn't hate roaming, they didn't kill it. Support + Ranged AD butchering everything you could try to run in bot lane killed roaming.
remake every hero with a heal, make it so heals can only be self cast.
make it so that a last hit shares gold with all the champions in xp range so that people cant hog the cs.
this will neuter ranged ads bot but it will open up a huge range of duos and stop making duo lane about an ad and his bitch about more about a partnership.
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I personally don't mind playing support as its really the only pure pvp role. Your job in lane is to make sure your ad has free time to cs while denying that to the enemy ad. A better support lets an ad be stronger at the first buy which can give you early kills or dragons.
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On April 12 2012 05:30 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 05:27 Mogwai wrote:
Riot didn't hate roaming, they didn't kill it. Support + Ranged AD butchering everything you could try to run in bot lane killed roaming. remake every hero with a heal, make it so heals can only be self cast. make it so that a last hit shares gold with all the champions in xp range so that people cant hog the cs. this will neuter ranged ads bot but it will open up a huge range of duos and stop making duo lane about an ad and his bitch about more about a partnership.
And will also rape the game and ruin balance. This is a horrible idea.
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Shared CS is kinda a bad idea because then whenever it's safe your support will go out of xp.gold range to give the carry more gold. I don't want to be encouraged to stay away from my teammates in a duo lane for the sake of them getting more gold.
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On April 12 2012 05:27 spinesheath wrote:
There are plenty of people who enjoy playing support. It's fine as it is. Well, you might need to actually understand what you are doing and how a duo lane works in detail to enjoy it, while exploding people with a burst caster or wiping whole teams with a fed bruiser are cheap sources of fun for the vast majority of players.
And isn't top lane pretty damn boring most of the time as well? Or how is PvE 70% of the game that much fun?
unless by plenty you mean ~20% or more, which I personally doubt, then it's still an issue.
where the disconnect between T_D and I is happening is I don't dislike the idea of harass and denial, as the game progresses this just isn't possible. Somebody already mentioned it becomes really hard to do this when you present literally 0 threat to anyone on the opposing team. Think about Nunu harass lvl1, now think about nunu harass lvl11 if you had RoA or chainmail, as is if you go to snowball Vayne/graves/corki out in front of the creep line they just lifesteal the dmg with the counter hit. I exaggerate but it's the basic idea of what is happening.
This isn't to say I think your idea of promoting roaming is bad, I just think you aren't looking at the whole picture of what items can bring to the table.
On April 12 2012 05:42 phyvo wrote:
Shared CS is kinda a bad idea because then whenever it's safe your support will go out of xp.gold range to give the carry more gold. I don't want to be encouraged to stay away from my teammates in a duo lane for the sake of them getting more gold.
if you are referring to the utility talent that I suggested, the idea would be adding gold to the game like 10g for a nearby cs, but to counterbalance, somebody with this talent can only ever get 10g(or less) from last hitting themselves.
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On April 12 2012 05:42 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 05:30 turdburgler wrote:On April 12 2012 05:27 Mogwai wrote:
Riot didn't hate roaming, they didn't kill it. Support + Ranged AD butchering everything you could try to run in bot lane killed roaming. remake every hero with a heal, make it so heals can only be self cast. make it so that a last hit shares gold with all the champions in xp range so that people cant hog the cs. this will neuter ranged ads bot but it will open up a huge range of duos and stop making duo lane about an ad and his bitch about more about a partnership. And will also rape the game and ruin balance. This is a horrible idea.
No, it'll just make all bruisers go bottom and we'll have solo ADs again. Solo mid AD carry, solo top AP carry, double bruiser bottom. Just like old NA days.
It might increase roaming, but it would completely eliminate the support role from the game lol.
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On April 12 2012 05:51 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 05:42 Craton wrote:On April 12 2012 05:30 turdburgler wrote:On April 12 2012 05:27 Mogwai wrote:
Riot didn't hate roaming, they didn't kill it. Support + Ranged AD butchering everything you could try to run in bot lane killed roaming. remake every hero with a heal, make it so heals can only be self cast. make it so that a last hit shares gold with all the champions in xp range so that people cant hog the cs. this will neuter ranged ads bot but it will open up a huge range of duos and stop making duo lane about an ad and his bitch about more about a partnership. And will also rape the game and ruin balance. This is a horrible idea. No, it'll just make all bruisers go bottom and we'll have solo ADs again. Solo mid AD carry, solo top AP carry, double bruiser bottom. Just like old NA days. It might increase roaming, but it would completely eliminate the support role from the game lol.
Supports like janna would still be good, other supports would only be good if they could harass and heal themselves back up.
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EPT
