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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
On April 12 2012 03:34 UniversalSnip wrote:
personally i wish supports got a lot more gold than they do, i just don't think there's any way around the fact that starving for gold isn't particularly fun. At the same, the old double cc bot comps were not very fun to play because you were competing with your lane partner for farm which is frustrating. There's also the fact many of the supports are just really boring, they should pretty much all be aggressive ccers with heals that are at best shitty. Add on to that the fact that support items are restrictive (wow I'm building philo this game, can you believe it? Only the 800th time ive done that) and boring (every single support item but shurelya's is low risk low reward. Aegis for example is an incredibly boring item). ON TOP OF THAT support is hard to play, but the higher difficulty doesn't translate into higher impact on the game. The decisions are high risk and relatively complex but that doesn't mean your team gets rewarded proportionately when you get them right. Put all this together and you just have a really shitty role that people hate and want to avoid.
Yeah, I totally agree with this. I started playing Alistar/Nunu more in solo queue not because they're better than Soraka/Janna, but because it's more fun to headbutt/hurt opponents than to heal/shield your team if you aren't sure that your team will make use of your buffs.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On April 12 2012 03:31 miicah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:14 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 12 2012 03:08 Slayer91 wrote:On April 12 2012 03:05 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 12 2012 03:03 NotTheMonker wrote:
Hey, has anyone ever made a custom game on Summoners' Ridge and just not done anything? Do towers ever die, and does one side eventually win? If you made it again and did nothing, would the EXACT same thing happen as the previous game?
I might have to try this out when I get home. One side wins. I THINK purple pushes harder than blue does IIRC. But I do know that it is not ballanced. It's random, I dunno if you ever played customs to last hit or test jungle routes but random RNG makes lanes push back and forth. Dunno how you've played this game so long and never noticed. For some reason whenever I do customs I have found that purple takes the first towers really quickly. Dunno if that is true or me just imagining things. On April 12 2012 03:13 Slusher wrote:
Chauster himself said it's impossible for support to be MVP when complemented for his Janna ult in the base trade game at IPL.
Honestly I think a good support player can go a long way, and I don't mind playing it from time to time, but I can't personally relate to wanting to 'main' support so I guess I understand. Even the pro support players tend to play mid or top in solo que, unless they are duo queing with their normal ad.
if you want to get into a controversial discussion, something needs to be done about support, I don't know if it's on the players or on Riot, but when you have such a substantial percent of the community hoping to not "get stuck" with support it's a pretty clear flaw in what is at heart a game. I myself can think of times where I've decided not to play because I wasn't in the mood to support and didn't want to risk getting it, and then there are times when I offer to support when denied mid because I don't want to get stuck with someone pouting while supporting and sneaking in offensive items.
the best possible solution I can come up with is to establish some sort of skill based gold source for support, but then thats taking the onus off of the players and mabye thats not the right way to go. however even if you go with Chauster's proposed double bruiser kill lane, lets pretend for a moment they don't split cs (I have no idea) would you feel any different than the current support? In my mind no, but opinions may vary. The #1 thing that would fix support feeling "bad" to play would be to encourage Dota style roaming. The big problem a lot of people have is that it FEELS shitty to be stuck bot lane the whole game doing next to nothing, but you cant leave because if you do the enemy team gets a big advantage in exp. Compared to Dota where supports are always active and roaming the map, its much more fun and rewarding. Thats where we need to go IMO. Can't you TP anywhere you want in dota on a low CD?
No you can't, you can TP to towers(one of the reasons why towers are important in dota), it costs 135 gold everytime you do so however, and as a support you can be cash strapped with having to buy other support items such as wards and courier/flying courier not to mention consumables. It also costs 75 mana everytime you do so which is never to be underestimated, I think it has about a minute cooldown.
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On April 12 2012 03:14 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:08 Slayer91 wrote:On April 12 2012 03:05 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 12 2012 03:03 NotTheMonker wrote:
Hey, has anyone ever made a custom game on Summoners' Ridge and just not done anything? Do towers ever die, and does one side eventually win? If you made it again and did nothing, would the EXACT same thing happen as the previous game?
I might have to try this out when I get home. One side wins. I THINK purple pushes harder than blue does IIRC. But I do know that it is not ballanced. It's random, I dunno if you ever played customs to last hit or test jungle routes but random RNG makes lanes push back and forth. Dunno how you've played this game so long and never noticed. For some reason whenever I do customs I have found that purple takes the first towers really quickly. Dunno if that is true or me just imagining things. Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:13 Slusher wrote:
Chauster himself said it's impossible for support to be MVP when complemented for his Janna ult in the base trade game at IPL.
Honestly I think a good support player can go a long way, and I don't mind playing it from time to time, but I can't personally relate to wanting to 'main' support so I guess I understand. Even the pro support players tend to play mid or top in solo que, unless they are duo queing with their normal ad.
if you want to get into a controversial discussion, something needs to be done about support, I don't know if it's on the players or on Riot, but when you have such a substantial percent of the community hoping to not "get stuck" with support it's a pretty clear flaw in what is at heart a game. I myself can think of times where I've decided not to play because I wasn't in the mood to support and didn't want to risk getting it, and then there are times when I offer to support when denied mid because I don't want to get stuck with someone pouting while supporting and sneaking in offensive items.
the best possible solution I can come up with is to establish some sort of skill based gold source for support, but then thats taking the onus off of the players and mabye thats not the right way to go. however even if you go with Chauster's proposed double bruiser kill lane, lets pretend for a moment they don't split cs (I have no idea) would you feel any different than the current support? In my mind no, but opinions may vary. The #1 thing that would fix support feeling "bad" to play would be to encourage Dota style roaming. The big problem a lot of people have is that it FEELS shitty to be stuck bot lane the whole game doing next to nothing, but you cant leave because if you do the enemy team gets a big advantage in exp. Compared to Dota where supports are always active and roaming the map, its much more fun and rewarding. Thats where we need to go IMO.
Roaming supports in dota are possible because of TP scrolls and the fact that baseline stats on abilities tend to be much stronger than in LoL.
Ofc, that's not saying LoL can't do roaming supports (we did have roam meta for a short while after all), but there needs to be fundamental changes before that can happen imo. The way it is now, wards are just too strong.
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If Riot wants to encourage 0 CS support meta, they should go all out with it. Make a huge Gp10 that gives less gold the more CS you have, or stops the gold generation for a minute every time you kill a minion.
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On April 12 2012 02:40 Flicky wrote:
Not sure why people don't think the support is allowed to be the best player.
I'm pretty sure the person who is going to have no items but needs to have a big impact on the game should be the best player. They have to rely on pure ability to do well. They're so good they don't need items.
Yeah I've actually had a lot of success playing support (my highest winrates!), not saying I'm the best player, but I was quite surprised how impactful I was as support compared to when I played jungler or AD carry bot. Only thing is people won't really recognize how good you are participating in the win, ok this isn't generally a problem as long as you do good and win etc, but I've had for example a carry that played totally reckless, thinking he was god's gift to the game as he had the most kills on our team, but in reality I had to spam heal him with soraka and do everything I could to keep him up. Then at one point after he died (doing a stupid tower dive into enemy team) he starts flaming me I sucked and didn't heal him when all I did was focus on him, he just didn't notice! This kinda ruined our teamplay and we lost :/
On April 12 2012 03:48 Requizen wrote:
If Riot wants to encourage 0 CS support meta, they should go all out with it. Make a huge Gp10 that gives less gold the more CS you have, or stops the gold generation for a minute every time you kill a minion.
They actually want to get rid of this but they haven't found a good way to do it (yet). In a post for example they explained they even looked into nerfing support mana regen so hard you would NEED cs but then the optimal play simply became to play other champs (like GP) as support instead of these nerfed supports.
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To go along with the hotshot moving to support: It's just hotshot going emo after a tourney not the first time it's happened and playing support is like the polar opposite of his personality and playstyle. CLG is better off with someone who is emotionally stable at support rather then putting doublelift through listening to hotshot every lane phase. Just give Chauster chance to lead calls while he is chilling in his brush bot lane every game ^_^
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On April 12 2012 03:34 UniversalSnip wrote:
personally i wish supports got a lot more gold than they do, i just don't think there's any way around the fact that starving for gold isn't particularly fun. At the same, the old double cc bot comps were not very fun to play because you were competing with your lane partner for farm which is frustrating. There's also the fact many of the supports are just really boring, they should pretty much all be aggressive ccers with heals that are at best shitty. Add on to that the fact that support items are restrictive (wow I'm building philo this game, can you believe it? Only the 800th time ive done that) and boring (every single support item but shurelya's is low risk low reward. Aegis for example is an incredibly boring item). ON TOP OF THAT support is hard to play, but the higher difficulty doesn't translate into higher impact on the game. The decisions are high risk and relatively complex but that doesn't mean your team gets rewarded proportionately when you get them right. Put all this together and you just have a really shitty role that people hate and want to avoid.
The odd thing though is that even in dota supports are incredibly gold starved. But it isnt really an issue because playing a support is more FUN because you have more option for movement and action. That just doesnt exist in lol.
Items dont make roles fun: a character is fun because of the actions you get to do. If something isnt fun, adding an item doesnt magically make it fun. Buying something isnt fun in itself, its what you can DO with it that is fun. And ATM even if supports got the same income as everyone else, I still think people would bitch about support. The ACTION is missing. The movement. The FEELING that you can have an impact on the outcome.
I think a HUGE part of this has been Riot making a massive effort to remove any sort of early game killing potential because it isnt "fun."
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On April 12 2012 03:49 mrgerry wrote:
To go along with the hotshot moving to support: It's just hotshot going emo after a tourney not the first time it's happened and playing support is like the polar opposite of his personality and playstyle. CLG is better off with someone who is emotionally stable at support rather then putting doublelift through listening to hotshot every lane phase. Just give Chauster chance to lead calls while he is chilling in his brush bot lane every game ^_^
Afaik it's the team's idea, not Hotshot's though I have no proof to back that up.
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On April 12 2012 03:46 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:31 miicah wrote:On April 12 2012 03:14 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 12 2012 03:08 Slayer91 wrote:On April 12 2012 03:05 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 12 2012 03:03 NotTheMonker wrote:
Hey, has anyone ever made a custom game on Summoners' Ridge and just not done anything? Do towers ever die, and does one side eventually win? If you made it again and did nothing, would the EXACT same thing happen as the previous game?
I might have to try this out when I get home. One side wins. I THINK purple pushes harder than blue does IIRC. But I do know that it is not ballanced. It's random, I dunno if you ever played customs to last hit or test jungle routes but random RNG makes lanes push back and forth. Dunno how you've played this game so long and never noticed. For some reason whenever I do customs I have found that purple takes the first towers really quickly. Dunno if that is true or me just imagining things. On April 12 2012 03:13 Slusher wrote:
Chauster himself said it's impossible for support to be MVP when complemented for his Janna ult in the base trade game at IPL.
Honestly I think a good support player can go a long way, and I don't mind playing it from time to time, but I can't personally relate to wanting to 'main' support so I guess I understand. Even the pro support players tend to play mid or top in solo que, unless they are duo queing with their normal ad.
if you want to get into a controversial discussion, something needs to be done about support, I don't know if it's on the players or on Riot, but when you have such a substantial percent of the community hoping to not "get stuck" with support it's a pretty clear flaw in what is at heart a game. I myself can think of times where I've decided not to play because I wasn't in the mood to support and didn't want to risk getting it, and then there are times when I offer to support when denied mid because I don't want to get stuck with someone pouting while supporting and sneaking in offensive items.
the best possible solution I can come up with is to establish some sort of skill based gold source for support, but then thats taking the onus off of the players and mabye thats not the right way to go. however even if you go with Chauster's proposed double bruiser kill lane, lets pretend for a moment they don't split cs (I have no idea) would you feel any different than the current support? In my mind no, but opinions may vary. The #1 thing that would fix support feeling "bad" to play would be to encourage Dota style roaming. The big problem a lot of people have is that it FEELS shitty to be stuck bot lane the whole game doing next to nothing, but you cant leave because if you do the enemy team gets a big advantage in exp. Compared to Dota where supports are always active and roaming the map, its much more fun and rewarding. Thats where we need to go IMO. Can't you TP anywhere you want in dota on a low CD? No you can't, you can TP to towers(one of the reasons why towers are important in dota), it costs 135 gold everytime you do so however, and as a support you can be cash strapped with having to buy other support items such as wards and courier/flying courier not to mention consumables. It also costs 75 mana everytime you do so which is never to be underestimated, I think it has about a minute cooldown.
It's not as bad as you make it out to be in all honesty. 135 gold is only 2 and a half cs, which is easily obtainable by taking the cs your carry can't get and/or pulling jungle creep. While yes you have to buy wards and courier, the courier cost is 340 (for courier+upgrade) usually split between 2 supports and wards are usually also bought by 2-3 people. Not to mention you can't spam wards like in LoL so the overall cost of wards is lower.
It's also worth noting that DotA meta tends to favor teams with like 2-3 supports, and 1-2 "core" champions which are basically supports that farm/semi-carry. So the burden of buying consumables is split among a lot more people, which lowers the individual gold burden unlike LoL where the support is the usually the sole person doing bitch work.
@T_D: supports in DotA are gold starved, but from what I can see, they tend to be less gold starved than their LoL counterparts.
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Speaking of support gold... doesn't the substantially smaller number of viewers for support players' streams - just because they play a less popular role - mean that support players make less real-life money than players that play other roles at an equally high level?
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On April 12 2012 03:51 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:49 mrgerry wrote:
To go along with the hotshot moving to support: It's just hotshot going emo after a tourney not the first time it's happened and playing support is like the polar opposite of his personality and playstyle. CLG is better off with someone who is emotionally stable at support rather then putting doublelift through listening to hotshot every lane phase. Just give Chauster chance to lead calls while he is chilling in his brush bot lane every game ^_^ Afaik it's the team's idea, not Hotshot's though I have no proof to back that up.
Can't imagine Doublelift wants Hotshot instead of Chauster...
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On April 12 2012 03:52 danana wrote:
Speaking of support gold... doesn't the substantially smaller number of viewers for support players' streams - just because they play a less popular role - mean that support players make less real-life money than players that play other roles at an equally high level?
yep. which is pretty much why the only well known high level streamers that play support all have a pro-team.
On April 12 2012 03:54 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:51 HazMat wrote:On April 12 2012 03:49 mrgerry wrote:
To go along with the hotshot moving to support: It's just hotshot going emo after a tourney not the first time it's happened and playing support is like the polar opposite of his personality and playstyle. CLG is better off with someone who is emotionally stable at support rather then putting doublelift through listening to hotshot every lane phase. Just give Chauster chance to lead calls while he is chilling in his brush bot lane every game ^_^ Afaik it's the team's idea, not Hotshot's though I have no proof to back that up. Can't imagine Doublelift wants Hotshot instead of Chauster...
i think in his ama DL said he prefers Chauster, but the fact of the matter is Chauster plays some top lane matchups that HS simply won't/can't.
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I run gp10 quints and yellows, and I go typical philo+hog, I don't really feel gold starved when team is doing okay (to good).
I only feel really gold starved when there's absolutely no action going on.
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On April 12 2012 03:54 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:51 HazMat wrote:On April 12 2012 03:49 mrgerry wrote:
To go along with the hotshot moving to support: It's just hotshot going emo after a tourney not the first time it's happened and playing support is like the polar opposite of his personality and playstyle. CLG is better off with someone who is emotionally stable at support rather then putting doublelift through listening to hotshot every lane phase. Just give Chauster chance to lead calls while he is chilling in his brush bot lane every game ^_^ Afaik it's the team's idea, not Hotshot's though I have no proof to back that up. Can't imagine Doublelift wants Hotshot instead of Chauster...
i remember reading something about how they were crippled by the fact HotShot could play only 3 heroes well.
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On April 12 2012 03:58 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:54 Dandel Ion wrote:On April 12 2012 03:51 HazMat wrote:On April 12 2012 03:49 mrgerry wrote:
To go along with the hotshot moving to support: It's just hotshot going emo after a tourney not the first time it's happened and playing support is like the polar opposite of his personality and playstyle. CLG is better off with someone who is emotionally stable at support rather then putting doublelift through listening to hotshot every lane phase. Just give Chauster chance to lead calls while he is chilling in his brush bot lane every game ^_^ Afaik it's the team's idea, not Hotshot's though I have no proof to back that up. Can't imagine Doublelift wants Hotshot instead of Chauster... i remember reading something about how they were crippled by the fact HotShot could play only 3 heroes well.
Well, haven't seen hotshot janna but I'm 100% sure that chauster janna>hotshot janna. Also, hotshot plays 4heroes well!
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they really should have just picked up another support instead of doublelift
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On April 12 2012 03:49 mrgerry wrote:
To go along with the hotshot moving to support: It's just hotshot going emo after a tourney not the first time it's happened and playing support is like the polar opposite of his personality and playstyle. CLG is better off with someone who is emotionally stable at support rather then putting doublelift through listening to hotshot every lane phase. Just give Chauster chance to lead calls while he is chilling in his brush bot lane every game ^_^
I'm pretty sure that Chauster > Hotshot in a solo lane. But with that said I'm also pretty sure that Chauster > Hotshot by leaps and bounds in the support role. I really doubt a switch like that is going to work out well for CLG. Mostly because I've seen Hotshot play supports and it isn't pretty. And also because Hotshot's personality means that as soon as something goes bad bot lane he's going to rage at Doublelift.
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On April 12 2012 03:34 UniversalSnip wrote:
personally i wish supports got a lot more gold than they do, i just don't think there's any way around the fact that starving for gold isn't particularly fun. At the same, the old double cc bot comps were not very fun to play because you were competing with your lane partner for farm which is frustrating. There's also the fact many of the supports are just really boring, they should pretty much all be aggressive ccers with heals that are at best shitty. Add on to that the fact that support items are restrictive (wow I'm building philo this game, can you believe it? Only the 800th time ive done that) and boring (every single support item but shurelya's is low risk low reward. Aegis for example is an incredibly boring item). ON TOP OF THAT support is hard to play, but the higher difficulty doesn't translate into higher impact on the game. The decisions are high risk and relatively complex but that doesn't mean your team gets rewarded proportionately when you get them right. Put all this together and you just have a really shitty role that people hate and want to avoid.
What would they buy if they weren't limited by gold though? I think it would change the game fairly drastically if Janna was reliably able to get more than 1-2 big ticket support items a game (Reverie/Aegis), would she just stack armour on Frozen Heart or go hybrid AP? LoL doesn't feel very gold starved at all with gold mastery/rune options/gp5 provide more than enough to buy your support items and wards. League has very limited options in terms of what supports can build and I don't think that's going to change without a change to the game itself. If I get ahead in League as (again say Janna), I can basically just rush by gp5s and have my support items faster, there is no item path deviation. In DOTA for a pub, it's more likely you can buy much more impactful items if you get ahead because supports can buy TPs and almost all are gankers as well.
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On April 12 2012 03:52 danana wrote:
Speaking of support gold... doesn't the substantially smaller number of viewers for support players' streams - just because they play a less popular role - mean that support players make less real-life money than players that play other roles at an equally high level?
They run gp10 quints IRL bro.
I main support and theres no real "gold starvation" i mean, if its an extremely passive game, im more likely to just grab avarice / kage's along with philo/hog.
I find my role fun anyway, the sheer amount of positioning and harrass that goes into a support keeps you constantly on your toes. A good support can really screw the enemy AD via zoning / lost CS etc. As for roaming, aggressive supports really should do it more, i know when im playing leona / ali i try to roam to mid etc, usually when i ward dragon as not to lose too much time, usually can result in SS being used, lost cs exp etc, sometimes a kill ^_^ thats going up through their "turret corridor"
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On April 12 2012 03:52 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:46 Kipsate wrote:On April 12 2012 03:31 miicah wrote:On April 12 2012 03:14 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 12 2012 03:08 Slayer91 wrote:On April 12 2012 03:05 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 12 2012 03:03 NotTheMonker wrote:
Hey, has anyone ever made a custom game on Summoners' Ridge and just not done anything? Do towers ever die, and does one side eventually win? If you made it again and did nothing, would the EXACT same thing happen as the previous game?
I might have to try this out when I get home. One side wins. I THINK purple pushes harder than blue does IIRC. But I do know that it is not ballanced. It's random, I dunno if you ever played customs to last hit or test jungle routes but random RNG makes lanes push back and forth. Dunno how you've played this game so long and never noticed. For some reason whenever I do customs I have found that purple takes the first towers really quickly. Dunno if that is true or me just imagining things. On April 12 2012 03:13 Slusher wrote:
Chauster himself said it's impossible for support to be MVP when complemented for his Janna ult in the base trade game at IPL.
Honestly I think a good support player can go a long way, and I don't mind playing it from time to time, but I can't personally relate to wanting to 'main' support so I guess I understand. Even the pro support players tend to play mid or top in solo que, unless they are duo queing with their normal ad.
if you want to get into a controversial discussion, something needs to be done about support, I don't know if it's on the players or on Riot, but when you have such a substantial percent of the community hoping to not "get stuck" with support it's a pretty clear flaw in what is at heart a game. I myself can think of times where I've decided not to play because I wasn't in the mood to support and didn't want to risk getting it, and then there are times when I offer to support when denied mid because I don't want to get stuck with someone pouting while supporting and sneaking in offensive items.
the best possible solution I can come up with is to establish some sort of skill based gold source for support, but then thats taking the onus off of the players and mabye thats not the right way to go. however even if you go with Chauster's proposed double bruiser kill lane, lets pretend for a moment they don't split cs (I have no idea) would you feel any different than the current support? In my mind no, but opinions may vary. The #1 thing that would fix support feeling "bad" to play would be to encourage Dota style roaming. The big problem a lot of people have is that it FEELS shitty to be stuck bot lane the whole game doing next to nothing, but you cant leave because if you do the enemy team gets a big advantage in exp. Compared to Dota where supports are always active and roaming the map, its much more fun and rewarding. Thats where we need to go IMO. Can't you TP anywhere you want in dota on a low CD? No you can't, you can TP to towers(one of the reasons why towers are important in dota), it costs 135 gold everytime you do so however, and as a support you can be cash strapped with having to buy other support items such as wards and courier/flying courier not to mention consumables. It also costs 75 mana everytime you do so which is never to be underestimated, I think it has about a minute cooldown. It's not as bad as you make it out to be in all honesty. 135 gold is only 2 and a half cs, which is easily obtainable by taking the cs your carry can't get and/or pulling jungle creep. While yes you have to buy wards and courier, the courier cost is 340 (for courier+upgrade) usually split between 2 supports and wards are usually also bought by 2-3 people. Not to mention you can't spam wards like in LoL so the overall cost of wards is lower. It's also worth noting that DotA meta tends to favor teams with like 2-3 supports, and 1-2 "core" champions which are basically supports that farm/semi-carry. So the burden of buying consumables is split among a lot more people, which lowers the individual gold burden unlike LoL where the support is the usually the sole person doing bitch work. @T_D: supports in DotA are gold starved, but from what I can see, they tend to be less gold starved than their LoL counterparts.
I more meant that its not to be underestimated how much it costs over time, its not free, it has a cost, its medium risk/investment high reward. Either support roaming potential has indeed more to do with the LoL design and its not something which can be easily fixed without drastically changing the game, most of it comes from the ability to teleport, the fact that abilities are already really powerfull without any items and smoke/how the map is build.
Also, how gold starved you are in dota depends on which support you are and what lineup you run, if you run a heavy push/ganking lineup then you will gain gold from kills/towers, however if the enemy has a heavy ganking lineup its not unusual to see very very little items on support for the entire game.
Personally I find support to be a fun role to play, but I never play Soraka or Sona, I like playing Janna or Lulu more, the other ones are just too boring to play. Its not that I think Soraka is too weak, in fact he is really powerfull, he is just really boring and not fun at all apart from the fact that you can throw bananas.
Also small question, why are flat ADs better then ArP runes?
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