EPTI'm pretty sure the person who is going to have no items but needs to have a big impact on the game should be the best player. They have to rely on pure ability to do well. They're so good they don't need items.
[Patch 1.0.0.136: Lulu] General Discussion - Page 262
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Flicky
England2667 Posts
I'm pretty sure the person who is going to have no items but needs to have a big impact on the game should be the best player. They have to rely on pure ability to do well. They're so good they don't need items. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On April 12 2012 02:43 JackDino wrote: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=23067623#post23067623 Phreaks long lost criminal brother. I almost choked on my caprisun, from laughing so hard. I was always under the impression the best player was the support, w/ the exception of Curse's team (lol, sorry elementz, you not that good). | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On April 12 2012 02:40 Flicky wrote: Not sure why people don't think the support is allowed to be the best player. I'm pretty sure the person who is going to have no items but needs to have a big impact on the game should be the best player. They have to rely on pure ability to do well. They're so good they don't need items. The best player should simply be playing the role where his skill will have the biggest impact on the game. It doesn't matter whether support relies on pure ability or not. All that matters is: If the best player is support, will the team be more likely to win than if the best player was <other role>? (Assuming skill is transferable across roles, otherwise the entire question is moot) | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
The key with who you want to be on support IMO is that THEY want to be the support. Like I feel one of the reasons Ele was terrible for so long was because he just didnt want to do it. You look at Chau or Xpecial and they just dominate lanes because they want to. | ||
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NotTheMonker
United States131 Posts
I might have to try this out when I get home. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On April 12 2012 03:03 NotTheMonker wrote: Hey, has anyone ever made a custom game on Summoners' Ridge and just not done anything? Do towers ever die, and does one side eventually win? If you made it again and did nothing, would the EXACT same thing happen as the previous game? I might have to try this out when I get home. One side wins. I THINK purple pushes harder than blue does IIRC. But I do know that it is not ballanced. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On April 12 2012 03:05 Two_DoWn wrote: One side wins. I THINK purple pushes harder than blue does IIRC. But I do know that it is not ballanced. It's random, I dunno if you ever played customs to last hit or test jungle routes but random RNG makes lanes push back and forth. Dunno how you've played this game so long and never noticed. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
That was before several changes to minions/towers tho, so no idea if it's still like that. But as a pro ARAM player, I definetly know purple pushes the first towers faster than blue. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
Honestly I think a good support player can go a long way, and I don't mind playing it from time to time, but I can't personally relate to wanting to 'main' support so I guess I understand. Even the pro support players tend to play mid or top in solo que, unless they are duo queing with their normal ad. if you want to get into a controversial discussion, something needs to be done about support, I don't know if it's on the players or on Riot, but when you have such a substantial percent of the community hoping to not "get stuck" with support it's a pretty clear flaw in what is at heart a game. I myself can think of times where I've decided not to play because I wasn't in the mood to support and didn't want to risk getting it, and then there are times when I offer to support when denied mid because I don't want to get stuck with someone pouting while supporting and sneaking in offensive items. the best possible solution I can come up with is to establish some sort of skill based gold source for support, but then thats taking the onus off of the players and mabye thats not the right way to go. however even if you go with Chauster's proposed double bruiser kill lane, lets pretend for a moment they don't split cs (I have no idea) would you feel any different than the current support? In my mind no, but opinions may vary. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On April 12 2012 03:08 Slayer91 wrote: It's random, I dunno if you ever played customs to last hit or test jungle routes but random RNG makes lanes push back and forth. Dunno how you've played this game so long and never noticed. For some reason whenever I do customs I have found that purple takes the first towers really quickly. Dunno if that is true or me just imagining things. On April 12 2012 03:13 Slusher wrote: Chauster himself said it's impossible for support to be MVP when complemented for his Janna ult in the base trade game at IPL. Honestly I think a good support player can go a long way, and I don't mind playing it from time to time, but I can't personally relate to wanting to 'main' support so I guess I understand. Even the pro support players tend to play mid or top in solo que, unless they are duo queing with their normal ad. if you want to get into a controversial discussion, something needs to be done about support, I don't know if it's on the players or on Riot, but when you have such a substantial percent of the community hoping to not "get stuck" with support it's a pretty clear flaw in what is at heart a game. I myself can think of times where I've decided not to play because I wasn't in the mood to support and didn't want to risk getting it, and then there are times when I offer to support when denied mid because I don't want to get stuck with someone pouting while supporting and sneaking in offensive items. the best possible solution I can come up with is to establish some sort of skill based gold source for support, but then thats taking the onus off of the players and mabye thats not the right way to go. however even if you go with Chauster's proposed double bruiser kill lane, lets pretend for a moment they don't split cs (I have no idea) would you feel any different than the current support? In my mind no, but opinions may vary. The #1 thing that would fix support feeling "bad" to play would be to encourage Dota style roaming. The big problem a lot of people have is that it FEELS shitty to be stuck bot lane the whole game doing next to nothing, but you cant leave because if you do the enemy team gets a big advantage in exp. Compared to Dota where supports are always active and roaming the map, its much more fun and rewarding. Thats where we need to go IMO. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On April 12 2012 03:11 Slayer91 wrote: That's ages ago and got fixed, right? Thats where the whole purple caster minion thing came from. i don't remember when it was. The post was essentially "i know for a fact that eventually side x will always win if the creeps are left by themselves, but it takes a really long time. But if you hit the creeps at all this isn't true." anything else about the post is lost to memory. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
the specific idea that I had was to make the final talent in utility give an amount of gold from nearby cs, but reduce your own cs by an even greater amount of gold. or if you think roaming is the key, mabye make the final talent passive exp? or mabye a 7th ward only slot? just ideas I'm throwing out there. personally I feel like if I could just not be routed into gp5 and actually build my character for lategame I wouldn't feel like I was being robbed of a game. it might also help balance how strong supports are in solo lanes if you can actually balance them around having items. | ||
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Seiuchi
United States931 Posts
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miicah
Australia2470 Posts
On April 12 2012 03:14 Two_DoWn wrote: For some reason whenever I do customs I have found that purple takes the first towers really quickly. Dunno if that is true or me just imagining things. The #1 thing that would fix support feeling "bad" to play would be to encourage Dota style roaming. The big problem a lot of people have is that it FEELS shitty to be stuck bot lane the whole game doing next to nothing, but you cant leave because if you do the enemy team gets a big advantage in exp. Compared to Dota where supports are always active and roaming the map, its much more fun and rewarding. Thats where we need to go IMO. Can't you TP anywhere you want in dota on a low CD? | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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bmn
886 Posts
On April 12 2012 03:13 Slusher wrote: Chauster himself said it's impossible for support to be MVP when complemented for his Janna ult in the base trade game at IPL. Honestly I think a good support player can go a long way, and I don't mind playing it from time to time, but I can't personally relate to wanting to 'main' support so I guess I understand. Even the pro support players tend to play mid or top in solo que, unless they are duo queing with their normal ad. if you want to get into a controversial discussion, something needs to be done about support, I don't know if it's on the players or on Riot, but when you have such a substantial percent of the community hoping to not "get stuck" with support it's a pretty clear flaw in what is at heart a game. I myself can think of times where I've decided not to play because I wasn't in the mood to support and didn't want to risk getting it, and then there are times when I offer to support when denied mid because I don't want to get stuck with someone pouting while supporting and sneaking in offensive items. the best possible solution I can come up with is to establish some sort of skill based gold source for support, but then thats taking the onus off of the players and mabye thats not the right way to go. however even if you go with Chauster's proposed double bruiser kill lane, lets pretend for a moment they don't split cs (I have no idea) would you feel any different than the current support? In my mind no, but opinions may vary. As you already suggested, I think it's quite obvious why it's much better to have your strongest player -- assuming for the discussion that each player has a certain role-independent skill -- pick something other than support: Support doesn't get the same reward for kills and last-hitting that other roles do. Gold is not something that detracts from the value of a player's skill, quite the opposite: It amplifies it. Getting more gold for kills than assists and getting a relative advantage from out-farming your lane (/jungle) opponent means that in any non-support role, a skill differential in lane allows you to snowball much more so than is ever the case for a support. A fed good AD carry with a good support is scarier than a fed bad AD carry with a good support. That being said, in reality not everyone is equally good at all roles, so this is a rather theoretical discussion. I think the problem with solo queue (unlike duo queue) is that at champ select, you have no idea whether you'll get along with your bot lane partner, and as a support, you're much more dependent on the AD carry than the reverse. (Both need each other, but the AD carry has more control over how to play the lane, and a greater impact after the laning phase.) | ||
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