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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
Soraka is just a whole different class anyways. I wouldn't put her in the same group as Janna, Taric and so on. She's a Healer and not much else. All the other supports have way more offensive traits.
AD > APen because the damage against champions is pretty much equal, but the damage against minions is significantly better for AD. Now that's fine and all, but I can lasthit without that extra AD, I don't need that AD, RIGHT? No. When your enemy knows exactly when you will go for a lasthit, he can punish you for it. But the more AD you have, the more time you have to get that lasthit in. That means you have a greater chance to take that lasthit while your enemy can't punish because he is out of position or busy lasthitting himself and so on.
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On April 12 2012 04:05 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:52 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 12 2012 03:46 Kipsate wrote:On April 12 2012 03:31 miicah wrote:On April 12 2012 03:14 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 12 2012 03:08 Slayer91 wrote:On April 12 2012 03:05 Two_DoWn wrote:On April 12 2012 03:03 NotTheMonker wrote:
Hey, has anyone ever made a custom game on Summoners' Ridge and just not done anything? Do towers ever die, and does one side eventually win? If you made it again and did nothing, would the EXACT same thing happen as the previous game?
I might have to try this out when I get home. One side wins. I THINK purple pushes harder than blue does IIRC. But I do know that it is not ballanced. It's random, I dunno if you ever played customs to last hit or test jungle routes but random RNG makes lanes push back and forth. Dunno how you've played this game so long and never noticed. For some reason whenever I do customs I have found that purple takes the first towers really quickly. Dunno if that is true or me just imagining things. On April 12 2012 03:13 Slusher wrote:
Chauster himself said it's impossible for support to be MVP when complemented for his Janna ult in the base trade game at IPL.
Honestly I think a good support player can go a long way, and I don't mind playing it from time to time, but I can't personally relate to wanting to 'main' support so I guess I understand. Even the pro support players tend to play mid or top in solo que, unless they are duo queing with their normal ad.
if you want to get into a controversial discussion, something needs to be done about support, I don't know if it's on the players or on Riot, but when you have such a substantial percent of the community hoping to not "get stuck" with support it's a pretty clear flaw in what is at heart a game. I myself can think of times where I've decided not to play because I wasn't in the mood to support and didn't want to risk getting it, and then there are times when I offer to support when denied mid because I don't want to get stuck with someone pouting while supporting and sneaking in offensive items.
the best possible solution I can come up with is to establish some sort of skill based gold source for support, but then thats taking the onus off of the players and mabye thats not the right way to go. however even if you go with Chauster's proposed double bruiser kill lane, lets pretend for a moment they don't split cs (I have no idea) would you feel any different than the current support? In my mind no, but opinions may vary. The #1 thing that would fix support feeling "bad" to play would be to encourage Dota style roaming. The big problem a lot of people have is that it FEELS shitty to be stuck bot lane the whole game doing next to nothing, but you cant leave because if you do the enemy team gets a big advantage in exp. Compared to Dota where supports are always active and roaming the map, its much more fun and rewarding. Thats where we need to go IMO. Can't you TP anywhere you want in dota on a low CD? No you can't, you can TP to towers(one of the reasons why towers are important in dota), it costs 135 gold everytime you do so however, and as a support you can be cash strapped with having to buy other support items such as wards and courier/flying courier not to mention consumables. It also costs 75 mana everytime you do so which is never to be underestimated, I think it has about a minute cooldown. It's not as bad as you make it out to be in all honesty. 135 gold is only 2 and a half cs, which is easily obtainable by taking the cs your carry can't get and/or pulling jungle creep. While yes you have to buy wards and courier, the courier cost is 340 (for courier+upgrade) usually split between 2 supports and wards are usually also bought by 2-3 people. Not to mention you can't spam wards like in LoL so the overall cost of wards is lower. It's also worth noting that DotA meta tends to favor teams with like 2-3 supports, and 1-2 "core" champions which are basically supports that farm/semi-carry. So the burden of buying consumables is split among a lot more people, which lowers the individual gold burden unlike LoL where the support is the usually the sole person doing bitch work. @T_D: supports in DotA are gold starved, but from what I can see, they tend to be less gold starved than their LoL counterparts. I more meant that its not to be underestimated how much it costs over time, its not free, it has a cost, its medium risk/investment high reward. Either support roaming potential has indeed more to do with the LoL design and its not something which can be easily fixed without drastically changing the game, most of it comes from the ability to teleport, the fact that abilities are already really powerfull without any items and smoke/how the map is build. Personally I find support to be a fun role to play, but I never play Soraka or Sona, I like playing Janna or Lulu more, the other ones are just too boring to play. Its not that I think Soraka is too weak, in fact he is really powerfull, he is just really boring and not fun at all apart from the fact that you can throw bananas. Also small question, why are flat ADs better then ArP runes?
AD runes aren't necessarily better. The easy answer to why some players prefer them is because AD runes are better for hitting creep and Arpen runes are better for hitting champions. But late enough into the game, both runes barely make a difference.
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Sometimes I feel like soraka is super farm/level dependent because of how good tank soraka is with starcall spam + double heals.
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Personally I think soraka should be played with summoner heal all the time.
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Personally I think tryndamere should be played with 5 IEs because he has a great AD steriod!
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On the topic of supports they could also just let people play 4v4 or TT.
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Well you can make fun of it all you want,but even Xspecial said that they lost bot lanes in IPL because the other bot lane pair had a summoner up on them.I don't see why its a bad idea to run that extra heal summoner on a champion that revolves around healing people lol.
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On April 12 2012 04:19 Slayer91 wrote:
Personally I think tryndamere should be played with 5 IEs because he has a great AD steriod!
5 Pdancer trynda totally legit man.
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On April 12 2012 04:24 TheKefka wrote:
Well you can make fun of it all you want,but even Xspecial said that they lost bot lanes in IPL because the other bot lane pair had a summoner up on them.I don't see why its a bad idea to run that extra heal summoner on a champion that revolves around healing people lol.
So that wasn't trolling?
Because support Soraka stays in the back, so she doesn't take much damage. Therefore she doesn't need the Heal for herself. However, 2 Heals don't stack well (you get a debuff once you get healed by Summoner Heal so the next Heal heals for less. Soraka would also only heal an ally for half the amount which is pretty weak. Exhaust is going to be way more useful than that. Ignite as well. Hell, even Promote should be better than that.
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On April 12 2012 04:24 TheKefka wrote:
Well you can make fun of it all you want,but even Xspecial said that they lost bot lanes in IPL because the other bot lane pair had a summoner up on them.I don't see why its a bad idea to run that extra heal summoner on a champion that revolves around healing people lol.
The fact that you can heal doesn't make summoner heal any better, in fact it makes it relatively worse. Just like stacking AD ona champ with an AD steriod is worse than building some attack speed. For example exhaust scales better with healing because you reduce the damage by a % making your innate heals more effective.
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On April 12 2012 04:04 PartyBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:34 UniversalSnip wrote:
personally i wish supports got a lot more gold than they do, i just don't think there's any way around the fact that starving for gold isn't particularly fun. At the same, the old double cc bot comps were not very fun to play because you were competing with your lane partner for farm which is frustrating. There's also the fact many of the supports are just really boring, they should pretty much all be aggressive ccers with heals that are at best shitty. Add on to that the fact that support items are restrictive (wow I'm building philo this game, can you believe it? Only the 800th time ive done that) and boring (every single support item but shurelya's is low risk low reward. Aegis for example is an incredibly boring item). ON TOP OF THAT support is hard to play, but the higher difficulty doesn't translate into higher impact on the game. The decisions are high risk and relatively complex but that doesn't mean your team gets rewarded proportionately when you get them right. Put all this together and you just have a really shitty role that people hate and want to avoid. What would they buy if they weren't limited by gold though? I think it would change the game fairly drastically if Janna was reliably able to get more than 1-2 big ticket support items a game (Reverie/Aegis), would she just stack armour on Frozen Heart or go hybrid AP? LoL doesn't feel very gold starved at all with gold mastery/rune options/gp5 provide more than enough to buy your support items and wards. League has very limited options in terms of what supports can build and I don't think that's going to change without a change to the game itself. If I get ahead in League as (again say Janna), I can basically just rush by gp5s and have my support items faster, there is no item path deviation. In DOTA for a pub, it's more likely you can buy much more impactful items if you get ahead because supports can buy TPs and almost all are gankers as well.
if you don't feel the gold pinch, it's because you're not buying enough wards. Wards are actually so cheap it makes sense to just spend all your gold on them, i actually think supports would get more items if wards were MORE expensive. There are a lot ways having more items could make playing support more fun, because it would change the playstyle and open up a lot of options. Think about janna - you could go ap to make your spells bigger, sunfire for getting right into the middle of a fight and disrupting, or auras for traditional play. What about deathfire alistar, or support blitz actually being good? These seem silly right now because they're out of the realm of possibility, but gold makes cool stuff happen.
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don't hate too hard on hotshot support. he used to be known for his taric
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On April 12 2012 04:29 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 04:24 TheKefka wrote:
Well you can make fun of it all you want,but even Xspecial said that they lost bot lanes in IPL because the other bot lane pair had a summoner up on them.I don't see why its a bad idea to run that extra heal summoner on a champion that revolves around healing people lol. So that wasn't trolling? Because support Soraka stays in the back, so she doesn't take much damage. Therefore she doesn't need the Heal for herself. However, 2 Heals don't stack well (you get a debuff once you get healed by Summoner Heal so the next Heal heals for less. Soraka would also only heal an ally for half the amount which is pretty weak. Exhaust is going to be way more useful than that. Ignite as well. Hell, even Promote should be better than that.
The heal debuff doesn't affect soraka's heal spells. The heal debuff only applies to other summoner heals.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Heal
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On April 12 2012 04:35 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 04:04 PartyBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2012 03:34 UniversalSnip wrote:
personally i wish supports got a lot more gold than they do, i just don't think there's any way around the fact that starving for gold isn't particularly fun. At the same, the old double cc bot comps were not very fun to play because you were competing with your lane partner for farm which is frustrating. There's also the fact many of the supports are just really boring, they should pretty much all be aggressive ccers with heals that are at best shitty. Add on to that the fact that support items are restrictive (wow I'm building philo this game, can you believe it? Only the 800th time ive done that) and boring (every single support item but shurelya's is low risk low reward. Aegis for example is an incredibly boring item). ON TOP OF THAT support is hard to play, but the higher difficulty doesn't translate into higher impact on the game. The decisions are high risk and relatively complex but that doesn't mean your team gets rewarded proportionately when you get them right. Put all this together and you just have a really shitty role that people hate and want to avoid. What would they buy if they weren't limited by gold though? I think it would change the game fairly drastically if Janna was reliably able to get more than 1-2 big ticket support items a game (Reverie/Aegis), would she just stack armour on Frozen Heart or go hybrid AP? LoL doesn't feel very gold starved at all with gold mastery/rune options/gp5 provide more than enough to buy your support items and wards. League has very limited options in terms of what supports can build and I don't think that's going to change without a change to the game itself. If I get ahead in League as (again say Janna), I can basically just rush by gp5s and have my support items faster, there is no item path deviation. In DOTA for a pub, it's more likely you can buy much more impactful items if you get ahead because supports can buy TPs and almost all are gankers as well. if you don't feel the gold pinch, it's because you're not buying enough wards. Wards are actually so cheap it makes sense to just spend all your gold on them, i actually think supports would get more items if wards were MORE expensive. There are a lot ways having more items could make playing support more fun, because it would change the playstyle and open up a lot of options. Think about janna - you could go ap to make your spells bigger, sunfire for getting right into the middle of a fight and disrupting, or auras for traditional play. What about deathfire alistar, or support blitz actually being good? These seem silly right now because they're out of the realm of possibility, but gold makes cool stuff happen.
I garuntee you that people would still complain about support being boring/not fun if they got a free item at the 20 minute mark.
Items dont change the fact that everything leading up to that point is boring as hell.
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Yea your right,whatever..
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On support soraka I would probably always take Flash/Exhaust or Flash/CV. The AD carry should be the one with the summoner heal if you want to stack a bunch of heals.
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On April 12 2012 04:38 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 04:35 UniversalSnip wrote:On April 12 2012 04:04 PartyBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2012 03:34 UniversalSnip wrote:
personally i wish supports got a lot more gold than they do, i just don't think there's any way around the fact that starving for gold isn't particularly fun. At the same, the old double cc bot comps were not very fun to play because you were competing with your lane partner for farm which is frustrating. There's also the fact many of the supports are just really boring, they should pretty much all be aggressive ccers with heals that are at best shitty. Add on to that the fact that support items are restrictive (wow I'm building philo this game, can you believe it? Only the 800th time ive done that) and boring (every single support item but shurelya's is low risk low reward. Aegis for example is an incredibly boring item). ON TOP OF THAT support is hard to play, but the higher difficulty doesn't translate into higher impact on the game. The decisions are high risk and relatively complex but that doesn't mean your team gets rewarded proportionately when you get them right. Put all this together and you just have a really shitty role that people hate and want to avoid. What would they buy if they weren't limited by gold though? I think it would change the game fairly drastically if Janna was reliably able to get more than 1-2 big ticket support items a game (Reverie/Aegis), would she just stack armour on Frozen Heart or go hybrid AP? LoL doesn't feel very gold starved at all with gold mastery/rune options/gp5 provide more than enough to buy your support items and wards. League has very limited options in terms of what supports can build and I don't think that's going to change without a change to the game itself. If I get ahead in League as (again say Janna), I can basically just rush by gp5s and have my support items faster, there is no item path deviation. In DOTA for a pub, it's more likely you can buy much more impactful items if you get ahead because supports can buy TPs and almost all are gankers as well. if you don't feel the gold pinch, it's because you're not buying enough wards. Wards are actually so cheap it makes sense to just spend all your gold on them, i actually think supports would get more items if wards were MORE expensive. There are a lot ways having more items could make playing support more fun, because it would change the playstyle and open up a lot of options. Think about janna - you could go ap to make your spells bigger, sunfire for getting right into the middle of a fight and disrupting, or auras for traditional play. What about deathfire alistar, or support blitz actually being good? These seem silly right now because they're out of the realm of possibility, but gold makes cool stuff happen. I garuntee you that people would still complain about support being boring/not fun if they got a free item at the 20 minute mark. Items dont change the fact that everything leading up to that point is boring as hell.
... So? I cited like 30 reasons playing support sucks, i'm well aware there 29 other ones. Don't see your point
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Alistar + Trinity Force = Fun
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As long as we are talking about supports...
Lulu's slow is incredible LVL1. Plus...adorable.
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On April 12 2012 04:38 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 04:35 UniversalSnip wrote:On April 12 2012 04:04 PartyBiscuit wrote:On April 12 2012 03:34 UniversalSnip wrote:
personally i wish supports got a lot more gold than they do, i just don't think there's any way around the fact that starving for gold isn't particularly fun. At the same, the old double cc bot comps were not very fun to play because you were competing with your lane partner for farm which is frustrating. There's also the fact many of the supports are just really boring, they should pretty much all be aggressive ccers with heals that are at best shitty. Add on to that the fact that support items are restrictive (wow I'm building philo this game, can you believe it? Only the 800th time ive done that) and boring (every single support item but shurelya's is low risk low reward. Aegis for example is an incredibly boring item). ON TOP OF THAT support is hard to play, but the higher difficulty doesn't translate into higher impact on the game. The decisions are high risk and relatively complex but that doesn't mean your team gets rewarded proportionately when you get them right. Put all this together and you just have a really shitty role that people hate and want to avoid. What would they buy if they weren't limited by gold though? I think it would change the game fairly drastically if Janna was reliably able to get more than 1-2 big ticket support items a game (Reverie/Aegis), would she just stack armour on Frozen Heart or go hybrid AP? LoL doesn't feel very gold starved at all with gold mastery/rune options/gp5 provide more than enough to buy your support items and wards. League has very limited options in terms of what supports can build and I don't think that's going to change without a change to the game itself. If I get ahead in League as (again say Janna), I can basically just rush by gp5s and have my support items faster, there is no item path deviation. In DOTA for a pub, it's more likely you can buy much more impactful items if you get ahead because supports can buy TPs and almost all are gankers as well. if you don't feel the gold pinch, it's because you're not buying enough wards. Wards are actually so cheap it makes sense to just spend all your gold on them, i actually think supports would get more items if wards were MORE expensive. There are a lot ways having more items could make playing support more fun, because it would change the playstyle and open up a lot of options. Think about janna - you could go ap to make your spells bigger, sunfire for getting right into the middle of a fight and disrupting, or auras for traditional play. What about deathfire alistar, or support blitz actually being good? These seem silly right now because they're out of the realm of possibility, but gold makes cool stuff happen. I garuntee you that people would still complain about support being boring/not fun if they got a free item at the 20 minute mark. Items dont change the fact that everything leading up to that point is boring as hell.
Being able to fend for yourself 1v1 mid-game isn't desirable at all to you? you enjoy not even being a threat to push off of tower? you need to open your mind to the doors that 5 people worth of income opens up, you might see some of the same supports, but you might see stuff like Ori, Lux and Morg even more.
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EPT
