[Patch 1.0.0.136: Lulu] General Discussion - Page 240

On April 10 2012 15:31 iCanada wrote:
You guys think we'll ever see a LoL champion sort of like Meepo?

They'd rather instantly become the only champion I played like... ever.

I suck at DotA, and havn't played for years... but I have fond memories of running around with five meepos and instagibbing people with "Poof!" when everyone was convinced Geomancer was the worst champ ever made.

On April 10 2012 15:31 iCanada wrote:
You guys think we'll ever see a LoL champion sort of like Meepo?

They'd rather instantly become the only champion I played like... ever.

I suck at DotA, and havn't played for years... but I have fond memories of running around with five meepos and instagibbing people with "Poof!" when everyone was convinced Geomancer was the worst champ ever made.

On April 10 2012 15:44 Xevious wrote:

Sadly no, and only because that sounds like the epitome of riot's definition of "anti-fun."

On April 10 2012 15:07 TheYango wrote:

LoL already uses some of the same kill callouts as DotA anyway. I'd assume that it's fine.

On April 10 2012 15:33 Xevious wrote:
awwwwwww :D

On April 10 2012 15:51 overt wrote:


That was a pretty awesome video, although one thing that I was confused about was how he said that he and Chaox lost bot lane because he ran CV yet iirc in the CLG matches Chauster ran CV in several of the matches...? Like, in the last game for sure Chauster ran CV and that was the game where Double got three kills on Ashe. Granted, Graves > Ashe in lane phase so still not surprising that they lost that lane but I'm pretty sure Chauster ran CV most of his games this tournament. And while for solo queue I still think I prefer aggressive summoner's on my supports (cause in solo q it's usually win lane win game) I think it says a lot that Xpecial and Chauster ran CV so often this tournament and were probably by far the two best supports of the tournament. CV too good.

edit:
Double checked, in games 2-4 Chauster ran CV. Only game against TSM he didn't run CV was game 1.

On April 10 2012 15:53 ManyCookies wrote:
With that said, I am convinced an elemental mage ala. Invoker could work in LoL, despite strong (legitimate) protests from Riot. It's possible to have a lot of spells (and differences between spells) and still have coherence. Invoker was just sort of all over the place with his spells. The key is to have a general rule that will always make a spell do some effect that you want, even if the specifics might be more nuanced.

Let's use Fire-Ice-Lightning as our reagents. Combine two; the first selected always determines the casting type of the spell. If it's fire, it's a simple skillshot bolt. If it's Lightning, it's a debuff/CC. If it's Ice, it's an AoE spell. Secondary determines a "side" effect. Fire-Fire a more damaging bolt, Fire-Lightning might slow/stun, Fire-Ice could live a path of fire in its wake, etc. Regardless of what you use as your second reagent, you're going to get a damaging bolt of some sort. If you see a bolt, it's going to do some damage. Yeah it might do something fancy once it lands, but general consistency is established on both sides of the bolt. Hell, the secondary reagents don't even have to fit with their primary theme. Fire-Lightning could do chain bolts, Fire-Ice could slow, etc.

On April 10 2012 14:11 Niton wrote:


Shield removal is (usually) not that big of a deal, but sometimes you're going to be up against a 500 AP Janna, and all of a sudden you're facing down a 700 HP shield that has no current in-game counter to it. If you want to make it a more diverse item, in my opinion one of the best ways to do that is to also encompass similar effects.

Even if it's rarely useful, there should be SOME way to deal with ginormo shields, the same way there's one to deal with ginormo heals.

On April 10 2012 15:51 Ryuu314 wrote:

and if I'm not mistaken DotA appropriated the callouts from unreal tournament

On April 10 2012 16:04 Parnage wrote:
It's my understanding that Lee Sin was a champion put in that rewarded people who could master his complexity. If they could do it with Lee Sin, I don't see why an Invoker style mage could not be done in a way that would please the guys wanting such and be easy enough for people to understand the happenings when facing such a champion. It's just a matter of taking the time to do it right which if I had to guess is why we have not seen such a champion yet.

While that would be really cool and fun, I highly doubt Riot would implement such a complicated champion into LoL. Not only would it be very hard for casuals (which Riot does pander to) it would cause a nightmare for Riot balance. Even Invoker is pretty darn imba in the context of DotA.

On April 10 2012 15:51 Ryuu314 wrote:

and if I'm not mistaken DotA appropriated the callouts from unreal tournament

On April 10 2012 15:56 Ryuu314 wrote:
Honestly, I don't see the problem with giant shields. Champions with strong scaling shield abilities are few and far between and shields are more or less like preemptive heals. The only champs with strong scaling shields that can be cast on other targets that I can think of are Janna, Karma, Lulu, Lux in that order of strength/reliability. The shields from those four could be problematic given enough AP, but even then I don't see it being so strong it needs an item purely to counter them. There are few enough champions with good scaling shields that it's not an issue. Furthermore, Riot dislikes heals not because they can turn fights, but rather because of its ability to sustain in lane. In fact, Riot was very clear about wanting to let heals be "clutch" and focused heal balancing more around nerfing sustain. For the fringe abuse cases like pre-nerf Swain and Vlad, they just worked on those on a case-by-case basis, which they can do with shields should they become too OP.

EDIT: There's also Morg and Shen, but Morg's shield is magic damage only and Shen's shield, while it has a crazy AP ratio of 1.5, isn't really going to be much of a problem seeing how it's not spammable and you're not going to have much, if any, AP on Shen.

On April 10 2012 16:18 Niton wrote:


The reason(s) you'd want to buy Exec Calling (or a revamped version) include dealing with a high amount of burst throughput, like Soraka or (kinda) Mundo. Huge amounts of burst survivability tend to be imbalanced, and that's something that Dignitas showed us this weekend, with their Soraka/Lulu comp which offered a huge amount of traditional burst healing and a huge amount (840 +1.1) of completely uncounterable extra burst health.

Burst health is fine, offering zero ways to counteract is is less so.

On April 10 2012 16:24 Ryuu314 wrote:

I'm not saying that burst health is perfectly fine as it is currently. I'm just saying that making an item/mechanic to purely counter the extremely small amount of burst health abilities in the game is so situational it's stupid, especially when out of the four sources of burst health I listed 2 of them are more or less unplayed (Karma/Lux) and one of them never gets the itemization to be significant (Janna). Lulu I do agree is a bit of a problem; I said myself on release that her ulti and its scaling was absolutely ridiculous. Rather, it's more prudent and easier to simply just balance the individual skills by hitting the numbers.

The difference between burst health/shields and healing is that the grievous wound effect applies to all sources of healing and regeneration, which includes traditional heals but also vamp and health regen. This essentially means the grievous wound mechanic will always be relevant in pretty much every single game to varying degrees. Whereas your proposed shield/burst health counter mechanic is ridiculously situational.

On April 10 2012 16:10 ManyCookies wrote:


Balance would be difficult to do without making the spells homogenous, I agree. But the entire point of a general rule is to reduce the set of the possible effects each combo can do. You don't need to know that Nocturne's Q gives him movespeed and attack damage while he's on the dark, while Brand's Q stuns if you're aflame; the strategy for both is "It's firing at me, don't get hit by it". While our Invoker rip-off has 9 spells, there's only three strategies the other player needs to know. Likewise, a starting player has a foundation of "Fire bolt, Lightning debuff, Ice offensive AoE" regardless of what he picks next. The main problem with DOTA Invoker is that he's just a pile of debuffs, selfbuffs, bolts, AoEs, Globals, and so on. That is on orders of magnitude more difficult to balance than 3 primary spells with some tweakable secondary effects.

On April 10 2012 16:04 Parnage wrote:
It's my understanding that Lee Sin was a champion put in that rewarded people who could master his complexity. If they could do it with Lee Sin, I don't see why an Invoker style mage could not be done in a way that would please the guys wanting such and be easy enough for people to understand the happenings when facing such a champion. It's just a matter of taking the time to do it right which if I had to guess is why we have not seen such a champion yet.

On April 10 2012 16:37 Ryuu314 wrote:

Okay several problems with having an Invoker champ:
Say our Invoker rip-off has 9 spells; either the cd on spell switching is significant and/or the different combinations are similar, in which case the player would essentially only ever use the most "powerful" of the 9 spells, rendering the others irrelevant, or the cd on spell switching is small and/or the different combinations are dissimilar, in which case the champion becomes broken as a champion having 9 distinct abilities will almost always be superior compared to other champions who only have 4 abilities.

Not only that, but LoL's engine/UI simply won't accommodate this.