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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
Because assuming you go Trinity having 30% crit even on a bruiser is pretty strong. And by adding AD to an item that builds off Exec just makes it an ideal item for AD carries, not bruisers. Bruisers would benefit a lot more from armor or MR than from AD.
If they made an item that built off phage and exec I would buy it every game as AD carry. I don't play many bruisers but I don't see why I would get that item over Trinity especially when I could just get Wriggle's for my lifesteal if I need lifesteal. And if they made it off of like a BF sword or pickaxe or any other AD item it would still probably be insta-buy for AD carries while being something that seems very passable for a bruiser.
Having 30% crit is always going to mean you do more damage in fights than 15%. Even if AD would be better
He meant that the relative value of each point in crictial strike decreases with more crit chance, NOT neccesarily buying more critical strike chance is a bad idea. But there will be a cutoff value at some point where buying AD/AS/whatever would be more efficient usage of gold. Same goes for... I think every basic buyable stat in the game.
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On April 10 2012 12:30 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 12:16 UniversalSnip wrote: You're gonna get crit when you get Trinity or Atma's anyway and since practically every bruiser ever is going to get one of those two the extra crit from exec's doesn't hurt. I don't understand... the more crit you have the worse buying more crit is, unless you have infinity edge. Because assuming you go Trinity having 30% crit even on a bruiser is pretty strong. And by adding AD to an item that builds off Exec just makes it an ideal item for AD carries, not bruisers. Bruisers would benefit a lot more from armor or MR than from AD. If they made an item that built off phage and exec I would buy it every game as AD carry. I don't play many bruisers but I don't see why I would get that item over Trinity especially when I could just get Wriggle's for my lifesteal if I need lifesteal. And if they made it off of like a BF sword or pickaxe or any other AD item it would still probably be insta-buy for AD carries while being something that seems very passable for a bruiser. Having 30% crit is always going to mean you do more damage in fights than 15%. Even if AD would be better.
Phage and exec? lol wut. I was talking about remaking exec with different stats, crit and lifesteal is a stupid combination.
You're not making any sense -_-
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On April 10 2012 12:38 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 12:30 overt wrote:On April 10 2012 12:16 UniversalSnip wrote: You're gonna get crit when you get Trinity or Atma's anyway and since practically every bruiser ever is going to get one of those two the extra crit from exec's doesn't hurt. I don't understand... the more crit you have the worse buying more crit is, unless you have infinity edge. Because assuming you go Trinity having 30% crit even on a bruiser is pretty strong. And by adding AD to an item that builds off Exec just makes it an ideal item for AD carries, not bruisers. Bruisers would benefit a lot more from armor or MR than from AD. If they made an item that built off phage and exec I would buy it every game as AD carry. I don't play many bruisers but I don't see why I would get that item over Trinity especially when I could just get Wriggle's for my lifesteal if I need lifesteal. And if they made it off of like a BF sword or pickaxe or any other AD item it would still probably be insta-buy for AD carries while being something that seems very passable for a bruiser. Having 30% crit is always going to mean you do more damage in fights than 15%. Even if AD would be better. Phage and exec? lol wut. I was talking about remaking exec with different stats, crit and lifesteal is a stupid combination. You're not making any sense -_-
I interpreted your post to mean that crit + life steal is bad (and for everyone that isn't AD carry I'd agree) and I thought you were saying you wanted them to make an item that built from exec and phage. My bad.
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On April 10 2012 11:25 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
Let's say you could upgrade Exec Calling to something else, Hexdrinker style. Would that make you get it in lane?
I already do get it in some lanes. Ie WW/Swain/Mundo/Volibear.
That being said it just a silly combination of stats. I think crit just kinda meh, really. I think it would be cool if it was something like increased total or a flat amount of true damage to things under a certain percentage of HP, kinda like the Executioner mastery. Brutalizer style armor pen would be cool too... but then I probably wouldn't ever buy brutalizer. Thats the problem really, Crit not desirable but there aren't very many other stats that you could give it that don't overlap with another item choice.
Perhaps something like Tenacity? I'd be more willing to buy Executioners calling and boots not named Mercury treads... especially if Exe got another item to build into.
^_^
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On April 10 2012 13:02 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 11:25 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
Let's say you could upgrade Exec Calling to something else, Hexdrinker style. Would that make you get it in lane? I already do get it in some lanes. Ie WW/Swain/Mundo/Volibear. That being said it just a silly combination of stats. I think crit just kinda meh, really. I think it would be cool if it was something like increased total or a flat amount of true damage to things under a certain percentage of HP, kinda like the Executioner mastery. Brutalizer style armor pen would be cool too... but then I probably wouldn't ever buy brutalizer. Thats the problem really, Crit not desirable but there aren't very many other stats that you could give it that don't overlap with another item choice. Perhaps something like Tenacity? I'd be more willing to buy Executioners calling and boots not named Mercury treads... especially if Exe got another item to build into. ^_^
Id like to see it upgrade into something with Crit Lifesteal and AD but i think that'd be a really really strong item.
as is though its just a niche item vs certain heroes(that and the dot is just like, wtf?)
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Do people consider Maw a good item? I think the Hexdrinker changes were nice because it's now on the level of Wit's End in terms of item cost and a good early-to-mid game item for AD-scaling bruisers to get some MR. That said, I think the upgrade to Maw is almost completely a waste of money for a bruiser. You're spending 1900 gold on almost purely offensive stats (it only gains 6 MR) which I think you can't get away with in 90% of cases.
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I don't think it's bad, but not necessarily amazing, either. You can sit on the Hex for awhile while you get your other tanky items.
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On April 10 2012 13:06 arnath wrote:
Do people consider Maw a good item? I think the Hexdrinker changes were nice because it's now on the level of Wit's End in terms of item cost and a good early-to-mid game item for AD-scaling bruisers to get some MR. That said, I think the upgrade to Maw is almost completely a waste of money for a bruiser. You're spending 1900 gold on almost purely offensive stats (it only gains 6 MR) which I think you can't get away with in 90% of cases.
Hexdrinker is a good midgame item. The upgrade to maw just means that buying it isn't a complete waste of a slot in the lategame. Honestly, the upgrade isn't bad. You get a ton of AD and while you only gain 6MR, the shield bumps up to 400, which is pretty significant.
I definitely wouldn't rush Maw tho and it's still a situational item. If I were to grab it I'd probably grab Hexdrinker, finish 1-2 tanking items and then upgrade it unless I'm dominating.
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On April 10 2012 13:06 arnath wrote:
Do people consider Maw a good item? I think the Hexdrinker changes were nice because it's now on the level of Wit's End in terms of item cost and a good early-to-mid game item for AD-scaling bruisers to get some MR. That said, I think the upgrade to Maw is almost completely a waste of money for a bruiser. You're spending 1900 gold on almost purely offensive stats (it only gains 6 MR) which I think you can't get away with in 90% of cases.
The shield amount and duration go up significantly (250->400 and 3s ->5s) which I think is very noticeable. On a lot of champs I think if you already bought a hex to counter your lane and then you max out the rest of your build it is a good buy rather than selling the hex. On bursty melee AD caster types I think it is a great item to get after a bloodthirster because it really helps your teamfighting and carry jumping.
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The shield is 150 hp stronger and last 2 seconds longer.
I think it fits well on the champs that go BT > GA and need the extra magic resistance since GA is mostly armor.
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I think it's a freaking beast bruiser item, you don't need a whole lot more than hex as far as MR typically and the money you dump in towards upgrading it offensively is quite efficient. It's not particularly great at full health but an item getting better and better in higher risk situations and being discounted for it is actually pretty much optimal. When nobody is damaging you is when you least need free stats as a bruiser anyway.
Wriggles maw is a really efficient package, you get lifesteal and then you combine it with the three stats that best synergize with it: armor, damage, and mr. That's so good. Get some hp next and it just like, all comes together, so sexily.
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IMO Hexdrinker is a pretty good item. I've been saved a bunch now buying hexdrinker, makes ganking strong AP's a LOT less scary in jungle, and for top lane it's pretty amazing against magic damage. Been buying it a ton because there's an endgame item in it now. Wouldn't get the full MoM before most other things though cept maybe for Olaf.
That said, it's also because there are very few alternatives for MR. Wits, mercs, and hexdrinker are the only good midgame sources of MR, with spirit visage being very situational.
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Exe and any defensive stat would be boss imo.
Like if you could clean the active/passive up on the original, then had it combine with kindlegem and gave it an active that did more damage based on how low you/your opponent was. Keepin the heal debuf of course.
Although you would probably need to tack a ghostblade like condition on it to discourage ranged ad purchase.
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I dunno, for a lot of these items I feel like they could just make it resellable for a bigger % of its cost and you wouldn't have to deal with making it viable past laning phase.
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Food for thought:
UNIQUE Active: Dispels all shield effects currently on the target and reduces its healing taken by 50% for 8 seconds (30 second CD)
Shield removal might be too arcane for Riot to want, but it'd be nice if all of the different types of solo-lane support were counterable with the same kind of item.
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I like that, but a passive on hit implementation of the healing debuff feels a lot better to me than an active. If it's an active, it's like, it counters specific abilities - in other words, specific heroes - but if it's a passive it works against sustain stacking generally. An active against somebody who just has generally ridiculous sustain like yorick or a wriggles lee sin/udyr is only useful if they all in, a passive is more versatile.
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Removing shields seem really pointless imo.
Honestly to make Exec better all they have to do is to make the active so that when you activate it, for the next X seconds, all your auto attacks reduce healing. Then it'd immediately see more use. The duration of the buff/debuff can be balanced easily. Probably something like Exec buff lasting 3 seconds and the healing debuff lasting 3 seconds would be plenty. (For reference, MF's W lasts for 6 seconds, with the debuff lasting 3 seconds).
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On April 10 2012 14:04 Ryuu314 wrote:
Removing shields seem really pointless imo.
Shield removal is (usually) not that big of a deal, but sometimes you're going to be up against a 500 AP Janna, and all of a sudden you're facing down a 700 HP shield that has no current in-game counter to it. If you want to make it a more diverse item, in my opinion one of the best ways to do that is to also encompass similar effects.
Even if it's rarely useful, there should be SOME way to deal with ginormo shields, the same way there's one to deal with ginormo heals.
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But now we're back to "Hoses Mundo, Swain, Voli and AD Sion". This isn't necessarily a bad thing for an item meant to specifically hose those types of heals and nothing else. Then it's just a safety net for healing design mistakes. But it's quite another thing when said item becomes a standard build path. It'd be like if a Pickaxe did an extra 150 true damage to Malphite and Skarner. Executioner's in its current state SHOULD be a bad item for 90% of situations.
Ultimately, I feel we have a completely static and inflexible power curve on healing debuffs; they completely hose a few champions (Mundo, Swain etc.) and don't really do much on others. Following that, they make huge healing effects rather binary; either you Ignite the Mundo/Swain and he's a sitting duck (sorta), or you don't and he doesn't die. What if they instead prevented a flat amount of heal for x seconds, rather than a flat 50% reduction on everything? It'd still be useful against healers, but it wouldn't completely hose them if they got ignited. . On the flip-side, it'd also give flexibility for various levels of "anti-sustain" like "Prevent 30 health of regen in the next 10 seconds". I hope no one notices I just copied-pasted this again. Not saying that in particular would necessarily be a good ability, but it opens up the potential design space.
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I actually completely forgot about Sion, heh. A few characters have shields that actually matter, so you'd need some kind of %-reduction there, too..
Item Variant:
Kindlegem (850))
Null-Magic Mantle (400)
Recipe (350)
=
Frostbite (1600)
200 HP
25 Magic Resist
UNIQUE Passive: Your autoattacks have a 35% chance to apply Grievous Wounds, reducing the effect of all healing on the target by 50% for 3 seconds.
Active: Shoots a blast of freezing air at the target, reducing the effect of all shields currently on the target and all new healing and shielding by 50% for 5 seconds. (No idea how to phrase that right..)
If you want to get really saucy, you could even argue for a that + phage combo into a NuMallet.
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EPT
