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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
United States47024 Posts
On April 10 2012 16:37 Ryuu314 wrote:
Okay several problems with having an Invoker champ:
Say our Invoker rip-off has 9 spells; either the cd on spell switching is significant and/or the different combinations are similar, in which case the player would essentially only ever use the most "powerful" of the 9 spells, rendering the others irrelevant, or the cd on spell switching is small and/or the different combinations are dissimilar, in which case the champion becomes broken as a champion having 9 distinct abilities will almost always be superior compared to other champions who only have 4 abilities.
Not only that, but LoL's engine/UI simply won't accommodate this.
Actually, ManyCookies' "primary/secondary" system makes this just fine.
Any spell that shares a "primary" component can share CD. For example, Qq, Qw, Qe all share CD (indicated by CD on Q in the interface), Wq, Ww, We share CD, etc.
In this way, you'd essentially 3 distinct spells, that each have 3 modalities. Each would probably end up having a primary mode that's most useful (e.g. maybe you'll use the slowing bolt more often than the chain bolt), but so long as there's situational utility for the 2 secondary modes, that's fine.
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On April 10 2012 16:45 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 16:37 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 10 2012 16:10 ManyCookies wrote:While that would be really cool and fun, I highly doubt Riot would implement such a complicated champion into LoL. Not only would it be very hard for casuals (which Riot does pander to) it would cause a nightmare for Riot balance. Even Invoker is pretty darn imba in the context of DotA. Balance would be difficult to do without making the spells homogenous, I agree. But the entire point of a general rule is to reduce the set of the possible effects each combo can do. You don't need to know that Nocturne's Q gives him movespeed and attack damage while he's on the dark, while Brand's Q stuns if you're aflame; the strategy for both is "It's firing at me, don't get hit by it". While our Invoker rip-off has 9 spells, there's only three strategies the other player needs to know. Likewise, a starting player has a foundation of "Fire bolt, Lightning debuff, Ice offensive AoE" regardless of what he picks next. The main problem with DOTA Invoker is that he's just a pile of debuffs, selfbuffs, bolts, AoEs, Globals, and so on. That is on orders of magnitude more difficult to balance than 3 primary spells with some tweakable secondary effects. Okay several problems with having an Invoker champ: Say our Invoker rip-off has 9 spells; either the cd on spell switching is significant and/or the different combinations are similar, in which case the player would essentially only ever use the most "powerful" of the 9 spells, rendering the others irrelevant, or the cd on spell switching is small and/or the different combinations are dissimilar, in which case the champion becomes broken as a champion having 9 distinct abilities will almost always be superior compared to other champions who only have 4 abilities. Not only that, but LoL's engine/UI simply won't accommodate this. nidalee is not always more powerful than teemo or wukong or annie. the spells could (not easily) be balanced so none stands out above the rest except through playstyle your post isn't correct at all and i think it's a great idea, cookies
The difference between Nid and Invoker is that when you pick between AD and AP, you make a choice between her human and cougar form and the rest of her abilities become more or less neglected because they're simply not very good without the itemization for it. The exception is her W. Whereas for Invoker you will always use the vast majority of his spells simply because of the massive utility they offer.
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That's true. Nidalee's forms aren't so much "6 spells" as "2 sets of 3 spells", and her Cougar form abilities are all relatively simplistic.
The point of that little idea was just to overcome the huge burden of knowledge barrier. Actually fleshing out a coherent champion out of that would be rather difficult.
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On April 10 2012 17:09 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 16:45 gtrsrs wrote:On April 10 2012 16:37 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 10 2012 16:10 ManyCookies wrote:While that would be really cool and fun, I highly doubt Riot would implement such a complicated champion into LoL. Not only would it be very hard for casuals (which Riot does pander to) it would cause a nightmare for Riot balance. Even Invoker is pretty darn imba in the context of DotA. Balance would be difficult to do without making the spells homogenous, I agree. But the entire point of a general rule is to reduce the set of the possible effects each combo can do. You don't need to know that Nocturne's Q gives him movespeed and attack damage while he's on the dark, while Brand's Q stuns if you're aflame; the strategy for both is "It's firing at me, don't get hit by it". While our Invoker rip-off has 9 spells, there's only three strategies the other player needs to know. Likewise, a starting player has a foundation of "Fire bolt, Lightning debuff, Ice offensive AoE" regardless of what he picks next. The main problem with DOTA Invoker is that he's just a pile of debuffs, selfbuffs, bolts, AoEs, Globals, and so on. That is on orders of magnitude more difficult to balance than 3 primary spells with some tweakable secondary effects. Okay several problems with having an Invoker champ: Say our Invoker rip-off has 9 spells; either the cd on spell switching is significant and/or the different combinations are similar, in which case the player would essentially only ever use the most "powerful" of the 9 spells, rendering the others irrelevant, or the cd on spell switching is small and/or the different combinations are dissimilar, in which case the champion becomes broken as a champion having 9 distinct abilities will almost always be superior compared to other champions who only have 4 abilities. Not only that, but LoL's engine/UI simply won't accommodate this. nidalee is not always more powerful than teemo or wukong or annie. the spells could (not easily) be balanced so none stands out above the rest except through playstyle your post isn't correct at all and i think it's a great idea, cookies The difference between Nid and Invoker is that when you pick between AD and AP, you make a choice between her human and cougar form and the rest of her abilities become more or less neglected because they're simply not very good without the itemization for it. The exception is her W. Whereas for Invoker you will always use the vast majority of his spells simply because of the massive utility they offer.
Hotshot's AP nidalee was bullying the shit out of voyboy's lee sin, in cougar form.
cougar form is still relevant in AP nid, while human form a bit more negligible for AD nidalee.
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On April 10 2012 17:19 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 17:09 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 10 2012 16:45 gtrsrs wrote:On April 10 2012 16:37 Ryuu314 wrote:On April 10 2012 16:10 ManyCookies wrote:While that would be really cool and fun, I highly doubt Riot would implement such a complicated champion into LoL. Not only would it be very hard for casuals (which Riot does pander to) it would cause a nightmare for Riot balance. Even Invoker is pretty darn imba in the context of DotA. Balance would be difficult to do without making the spells homogenous, I agree. But the entire point of a general rule is to reduce the set of the possible effects each combo can do. You don't need to know that Nocturne's Q gives him movespeed and attack damage while he's on the dark, while Brand's Q stuns if you're aflame; the strategy for both is "It's firing at me, don't get hit by it". While our Invoker rip-off has 9 spells, there's only three strategies the other player needs to know. Likewise, a starting player has a foundation of "Fire bolt, Lightning debuff, Ice offensive AoE" regardless of what he picks next. The main problem with DOTA Invoker is that he's just a pile of debuffs, selfbuffs, bolts, AoEs, Globals, and so on. That is on orders of magnitude more difficult to balance than 3 primary spells with some tweakable secondary effects. Okay several problems with having an Invoker champ: Say our Invoker rip-off has 9 spells; either the cd on spell switching is significant and/or the different combinations are similar, in which case the player would essentially only ever use the most "powerful" of the 9 spells, rendering the others irrelevant, or the cd on spell switching is small and/or the different combinations are dissimilar, in which case the champion becomes broken as a champion having 9 distinct abilities will almost always be superior compared to other champions who only have 4 abilities. Not only that, but LoL's engine/UI simply won't accommodate this. nidalee is not always more powerful than teemo or wukong or annie. the spells could (not easily) be balanced so none stands out above the rest except through playstyle your post isn't correct at all and i think it's a great idea, cookies The difference between Nid and Invoker is that when you pick between AD and AP, you make a choice between her human and cougar form and the rest of her abilities become more or less neglected because they're simply not very good without the itemization for it. The exception is her W. Whereas for Invoker you will always use the vast majority of his spells simply because of the massive utility they offer. Hotshot's AP nidalee was bullying the shit out of voyboy's lee sin, in cougar form. cougar form is still relevant in AP nid, while human form a bit more negligible for AD nidalee.
Cougar form is relevant for AP nid only in early game in lane due to the high base damage values of cougar form abilities at lvl 1. When laning breaks down you will never use cougar form except to escape or chase/clean-up. You simply can't use cougar form on AP nidalee in teamfights since you'll be so damn squishy you blow up before you get in range to use your skills. I'm not saying picking AD or AP Nid means you never touch the other abilities. I'm saying that when you pick AD or AP Nid you heavily prefer one set over the other and rarely use the other.
Regarding ManyCookie's idea I can see it working, but the biggest issue is if there's a crowd control component. The biggest part of what makes Invoker so OP is the wide array of utility he offers. If you have 9 spells, and 5 of those 9 spells offer cc, you potentially have an abuse case on hand. And even if you could make it perfectly balanced, I don't think LoL's engine could do it.
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The point being that Nidalee does not have the same complexity as (say) a Champion with six castable spells in one form, and hence is a lot easier to balance. It's far from impossible, but it will not be a fun task for Live. I mean hell, Sona provided only 3 diverse spells, but caused all sorts of problem as a support.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 10 2012 17:09 Ryuu314 wrote:
The difference between Nid and Invoker is that when you pick between AD and AP, you make a choice between her human and cougar form and the rest of her abilities become more or less neglected because they're simply not very good without the itemization for it. The exception is her W. Whereas for Invoker you will always use the vast majority of his spells simply because of the massive utility they offer.
Thats largely by the design on the spells though, where too many of Invoker's spells provide a ton of baseline utility.
Easily altered by using more conservative design on the individual spells.
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Ultimately, Ryu's right in the sense that for the effort to be worth it, the champion has to be damn awesome and not just an elemental mage for the sake of having an elemental mage.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 10 2012 17:33 ManyCookies wrote:
Ultimately, Ryu's right in the sense that for the effort to be worth it, the champion has to be damn awesome and not just an elemental mage for the sake of having an elemental mage.
Well yes, but there's a huge middle ground between "Invoker level OP" and "boring elemental mage".
We're talking about a hero's whos *weakest spell* is a global range true damage nuke that also gives vision.
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Why does no-one build Bloodrazer? It seems to be a good item for an AD it costs 3800 same as IE (well 30 less) it gives about 80 damage in magic if the enemy has 2k hp then 45 in physical 40% AtSp and some armor which is nice. Is it not build because the magic damage doesn't crit or add to abilities scaling (e.g graves buckshot)?
On bruisers I understand not building it since it gives fuck all defense.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 10 2012 19:07 valheru wrote:
Why does no-one build Bloodrazer? It seems to be a good item for an AD it costs 3800 same as IE (well 30 less) it gives about 80 damage in magic if the enemy has 2k hp then 45 in physical 40% AtSp and some armor which is nice. Is it not build because the magic damage doesn't crit or add to abilities scaling (e.g graves buckshot)?
On bruisers I understand not building it since it gives fuck all defense.
Pretty much this.
If you are building only 1-1.5 DPS items (Counting items like Atma's or Wit's as "half" DPS items), then other options like Triforce or Wit's provide overall more single-item cost-effectiveness. If you're building 2 or more DPS items, the multiplicative scaling of real AD stats outscales Bloodrazor's damage too quickly.
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On April 10 2012 19:07 valheru wrote:
Why does no-one build Bloodrazer? It seems to be a good item for an AD it costs 3800 same as IE (well 30 less) it gives about 80 damage in magic if the enemy has 2k hp then 45 in physical 40% AtSp and some armor which is nice. Is it not build because the magic damage doesn't crit or add to abilities scaling (e.g graves buckshot)?
On bruisers I understand not building it since it gives fuck all defense.
Reason is powercreeping.
IE is too strong to not build it first. PD is necessary as either second or sometimes first item for the deeps.
Then there's BT and LW, which are both just flat out better in terms of stats. BT gives Lifesteal, veeery important stat lategame. LW is the only item that really makes sense for an AD that goes for Arpen (and you need some arpen late), since ghostblade is a melee item.
So you have 4 big items and boots. Last item is usually a defensive one, GA, BV, ....
There's just no room for madred's, and as long as the current meta items are as strong as they are, that will not change. MBR is a really strong item, don't get me wrong. But not strong enough.
And yeah, the magic damage not scaling is a big turn-off too.
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The reason there is no invoker in LoL is because you have infinite mana and so invoker can spam the fuck out of every spell starting from level 2 or whenever you gave him invoke and completely ruin every single non-pushing (and most pushing) ap mids. You just take any jungler that doesn't require blue and win the game outright. Simple as.
(not even mentioning the fact that some people can't handle 6 spells including summoners on some heroes, how do you expect them to deal with 11+)
tl;dr blue buff still op
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On April 10 2012 19:35 greggy wrote:
The reason there is no invoker in LoL is because you have infinite mana and so invoker can spam the fuck out of every spell starting from level 2 or whenever you gave him invoke and completely ruin every single non-pushing (and most pushing) ap mids. You just take any jungler that doesn't require blue and win the game outright. Simple as.
(not even mentioning the fact that some people can't handle 6 spells including summoners on some heroes, how do you expect them to deal with 11+)
Because you can't make him have huge mana costs, small manapool and low mana regen? That's a simple balance issue, no reason to not have such a champ at all.
Some people can't even handle two spells. Yes I mean it just like that.
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On April 10 2012 19:40 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 19:35 greggy wrote:
The reason there is no invoker in LoL is because you have infinite mana and so invoker can spam the fuck out of every spell starting from level 2 or whenever you gave him invoke and completely ruin every single non-pushing (and most pushing) ap mids. You just take any jungler that doesn't require blue and win the game outright. Simple as.
(not even mentioning the fact that some people can't handle 6 spells including summoners on some heroes, how do you expect them to deal with 11+) Because you can't make him have huge mana costs, small manapool and low mana regen? That's a simple balance issue, no reason to not have such a champ at all. Some people can't even handle two spells. Yes I mean it just like that.
You mean, turtle bear turtle bear too complicated?
Also new blue buff blows for certain champs lol.
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Also the Invoker on dota used to have a tooltip to the game: "selecting this champion might make the game load alot longer"
As soon as the game started with an invoker, 7 people instantly discced
No more invoker for me in any game plz 
Wish they cut the championdevelopment down to 1 a month and focus on a new map / stealth rework / champ reworks
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On April 10 2012 20:24 ihasaKAROT wrote:
Also the Invoker on dota used to have a tooltip to the game: "selecting this champion might make the game load alot longer"
As soon as the game started with an invoker, 7 people instantly discceds
Since when? All that happened in my games was the screen freezing for like 3 seconds.
By the way the balancing factor for invoker are cooldowns. If you made a LoL invoker have 50-90s cooldowns on all his skills he'd actually be very underpowered instead of overpowered.
Invoker doesn't have any simple, basic spells that just get the job done. They all basically are very situational and have long cooldowns. Yes, you could say they are all kind of like ultimates, but either way he doesn't really have any simple workhorse spells that he can just spam for instant effectiveness. His cooldowns are too long for that. Forge Spirits is what comes the closest but LoL has no option for that really
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Just played a game against a Yorick top lane. How is that champion in the game as he is? I mean, they nerfed Eve into oblivion because she was deemed unfun, yet Yorick gets to be the most unfun character in the game.
I suppose this belongs in the QQ thread, but it's still a legitimate worry imo.
Oh and are there any champions that can actually win a lane against yorick? I played bruiser nid and lost pretty hard. What do you rune against him, armor/mr/hp?
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my friend says trundle is the counter to yorrick ^_^ ( guess he was referring to trundle's passive which is that he gets healed for 2% of the max hp of an enemy unit that dies near him )
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EPT
