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On January 29 2012 06:53 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 06:43 Seuss wrote:On January 29 2012 06:11 Two_DoWn wrote:
People slowly starting to realize that scaling doenst mean shit if you dont live. Realistically all aps should be built like bruisers: survivability first priority, damage after. You do more damage by being alive long enough to cast a spell you otherwise wouldnt than by going glass cannon and dying after getting off 1 rotation. Realistically all APs should build based on the situation and how that works for or against their strengths. Warmog's worked for Froggen on Anivia that game because Anivia's passive doubles its benefits, Anivia's damage is fairly continuous, and surviving Kennen/Ahri's ultimates was roughly equivalent with winning the team fight. At the same time, that sort of build would have made no sense on Ahri. Actually Froggen uses a tanky build on Ahri as well because she needs to be dancing around very close to enemies. Like I think warmogs is a bit over the top, but on some characters like annie, ahri, cass, ryze, swain- getting tanky through items like abyssal and shit like that makes sense.
I don't think it's really fair to call what Froggen does on Anivia 'over the top' when he's been so successful with her. You can't really argue with his results.
Edit: anyone know what his build specifically is? I think its something like tear/mejai's/spirit visage/warmog's/WotA. Spirit visage before wota often, which is also counter-intuitive but I'm pretty sure I've seen him do it.
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On January 29 2012 06:11 Two_DoWn wrote:
People slowly starting to realize that scaling doenst mean shit if you dont live. Realistically all aps should be built like bruisers: survivability first priority, damage after.
Going to disagree with this. If you prioritize survival first, your damage takes a nose dive. It's not like there's an equivalent to Atma's Impaler for AP's that suddenly gives you a lot of damage if you build tanky. It doesn't do a lot of good to be sitting in the back while being tanky and doing really crap damage during dragon fights when the enemy AP is blowing up the rest of your team..
Certain champions can build that way and be okay, but to say all APs should build like that is really pushing it. How much good does a tanky Veigar really do?
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the atmas impaler of ap is called ryze
i think if it works out, for whatever reason, that you 'need' tanky items on aps people will just stop playing them, if you cant burst someone as an ap you might aswell just play bruiser or ranged ad with some tanky items. aps strength is about that front loaded ability spam, if that doesnt kill people, its not worth playing them.
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On January 29 2012 07:32 turdburgler wrote:
the atmas impaler of ap is called ryze
i think if it works out, for whatever reason, that you 'need' tanky items on aps people will just stop playing them, if you cant burst someone as an ap you might aswell just play bruiser or ranged ad with some tanky items. aps strength is about that front loaded ability spam, if that doesnt kill people, its not worth playing them.
And if people on the enemy team are all tanky enough then you can't burst any of them down. This all goes back to spear and shield. The best thing to do is just to try things out and play however you'd like. You'll likely get games where you're successful with both builds.
I know glass cannon is the standard, and in those few games you never get focused and get lots of farm, you'll get legendary. The vast majority of close games, I'm not so sure.
Ryze gets very little damage from items. Even with a fully charged tear he only gets 108 extra damage on his Q and 67 damage on his W. Not really that big of a difference when you want to burst someone from 100-0 but enough to find a low target and take them down. He's good enough to be used by M5, the only seemingly dominant team on the planet if Kiev is to be taken seriously.
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On January 29 2012 07:41 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 07:32 turdburgler wrote:
the atmas impaler of ap is called ryze
i think if it works out, for whatever reason, that you 'need' tanky items on aps people will just stop playing them, if you cant burst someone as an ap you might aswell just play bruiser or ranged ad with some tanky items. aps strength is about that front loaded ability spam, if that doesnt kill people, its not worth playing them. And if people on the enemy team are all tanky enough then you can't burst any of them down. This all goes back to spear and shield. The best thing to do is just to try things out and play however you'd like. You'll likely get games where you're successful with both builds. I know glass cannon is the standard, and in those few games you never get focused and get lots of farm, you'll get legendary. The vast majority of close games, I'm not so sure. Ryze gets very little damage from items. Even with a fully charged tear he only gets 108 extra damage on his Q and 67 damage on his W. Not really that big of a difference when you want to burst someone from 100-0 but enough to find a low target and take them down. He's good enough to be used by M5, the only seemingly dominant team on the planet if Kiev is to be taken seriously.
Except in a typical attempt to 100-0 someone ryze will be using his q 3 times, so the bonus on his q and w goes up to 400 extra damage overall which is a LOT.
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On January 29 2012 07:45 Nehsb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 07:41 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On January 29 2012 07:32 turdburgler wrote:
the atmas impaler of ap is called ryze
i think if it works out, for whatever reason, that you 'need' tanky items on aps people will just stop playing them, if you cant burst someone as an ap you might aswell just play bruiser or ranged ad with some tanky items. aps strength is about that front loaded ability spam, if that doesnt kill people, its not worth playing them. And if people on the enemy team are all tanky enough then you can't burst any of them down. This all goes back to spear and shield. The best thing to do is just to try things out and play however you'd like. You'll likely get games where you're successful with both builds. I know glass cannon is the standard, and in those few games you never get focused and get lots of farm, you'll get legendary. The vast majority of close games, I'm not so sure. Ryze gets very little damage from items. Even with a fully charged tear he only gets 108 extra damage on his Q and 67 damage on his W. Not really that big of a difference when you want to burst someone from 100-0 but enough to find a low target and take them down. He's good enough to be used by M5, the only seemingly dominant team on the planet if Kiev is to be taken seriously. Except in a typical attempt to 100-0 someone ryze will be using his q 3 times, so the bonus on his q and w goes up to 400 extra damage overall which is a LOT.
His Q can be used 3 times if his enemy doesn't escape by flashing 2-3 seconds after his combo. Cass's twin fang cooldown gets reduced to .5 seconds if it hits a poisoned target so by your logic cass's twin fang will have hit 7 times to 100-0 someone so we should multiply that ap ratio by 7.
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Im not saying that all ap's should build pure tank, but look at the evolution:
First we have pure glass cannon shit where people just rush DFG on everyone.
Then they realize that cata is op and everyone goes cata-ROA.
Then Riot nerfs cata and everyone alternates between ROA and 3 drings into cap
Then everyone starts to go wota cuz of the lane and fight sustain.
Now people starting to throw a tank item into an ap build to allow extra cast cycles before death.
History has demonstrated a consistent shifting away from glass cannon and towards more sustain and beefiness on casters.
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On January 29 2012 07:49 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 07:45 Nehsb wrote:On January 29 2012 07:41 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:On January 29 2012 07:32 turdburgler wrote:
the atmas impaler of ap is called ryze
i think if it works out, for whatever reason, that you 'need' tanky items on aps people will just stop playing them, if you cant burst someone as an ap you might aswell just play bruiser or ranged ad with some tanky items. aps strength is about that front loaded ability spam, if that doesnt kill people, its not worth playing them. And if people on the enemy team are all tanky enough then you can't burst any of them down. This all goes back to spear and shield. The best thing to do is just to try things out and play however you'd like. You'll likely get games where you're successful with both builds. I know glass cannon is the standard, and in those few games you never get focused and get lots of farm, you'll get legendary. The vast majority of close games, I'm not so sure. Ryze gets very little damage from items. Even with a fully charged tear he only gets 108 extra damage on his Q and 67 damage on his W. Not really that big of a difference when you want to burst someone from 100-0 but enough to find a low target and take them down. He's good enough to be used by M5, the only seemingly dominant team on the planet if Kiev is to be taken seriously. Except in a typical attempt to 100-0 someone ryze will be using his q 3 times, so the bonus on his q and w goes up to 400 extra damage overall which is a LOT. His Q can be used 3 times if his enemy doesn't escape by flashing 2-3 seconds after his combo. Cass's twin fang cooldown gets reduced to .5 seconds if it hits a poisoned target so by your logic cass's twin fang will have hit 7 times to 100-0 someone so we should multiply that ap ratio by 7.
Even if they flash after the initial burst, you pretty much have two guaranteed qs, which is still 300 damage overall.
EDIT: And for pure 100-0ing considerations, yes cass's e ap ratio should be multiplied by 4 or 5.
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Yeah, Cassios absurd damage is a key factor if you decide to pick her. But so is the fact that Ryze gets to build damage and defense at the same time.
A champions quality is far far more than just their burst.
On January 29 2012 07:57 Two_DoWn wrote:
Im not saying that all ap's should build pure tank, but look at the evolution:
First we have pure glass cannon shit where people just rush DFG on everyone.
Then they realize that cata is op and everyone goes cata-ROA.
Then Riot nerfs cata and everyone alternates between ROA and 3 drings into cap
Then everyone starts to go wota cuz of the lane and fight sustain.
Now people starting to throw a tank item into an ap build to allow extra cast cycles before death.
History has demonstrated a consistent shifting away from glass cannon and towards more sustain and beefiness on casters.
It´s a result of more earlygame/snowballing focused strategies. Offense outscales defense in the endgame but by the point where "Deathcap marginalizes Warmoggs" the match is already past major deciding points like first 3 dragons, towers and sometimes even Baron.
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How would ryze runes look like?
mpen red
mana yellow
mr/lv blue
mana/lv quint?
User was warned for this post
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On January 29 2012 08:12 Kenpachi wrote:
How would ryze runes look like?
mpen red
mana yellow
mr/lv blue
mana/lv quint?
Basically.
I've also seen MS quints and Mreg yellows.
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On January 29 2012 08:12 Kenpachi wrote:
How would ryze runes look like?
mpen red
mana yellow
mr/lv blue
mana/lv quint?
I use:
mpen red
armor yellow
flat mana blue
movespeed quints
I can't afford mana/level yellows, but the armor is good for going top anyways.
edit: oops you can't get mana/level yellows
edit 2: jk you can
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On January 29 2012 08:12 Kenpachi wrote:
How would ryze runes look like?
mpen red
mana yellow
mr/lv blue
mana/lv quint?
You can go tanky, or you can go with a lot of mana or mana/lvl. Quints are more often movement speed, sometimes spell vamp even. You can also go all flat mana and be a monster at l2 
But more or less mpen reds, mana or mana/lvl yellow, flat mr or mana/lvl blues, and movement speed quints would be standard I think (for mid anyways).
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Some combo of mana+mana/level seals/glyphs is pretty normal, magic penetration marks, and move speed quints.
Personally I use magic resist/level glyphs because I don't want to buy mana glyphs, and most of the time you lane against an AP, and it really screws them over when you have the double combo of Banshee's Veil and scaling magic resist runes (least until they get Void Staff).
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On January 29 2012 04:33 Alaric wrote:
On another topic, I've been playing some Mordekaiser this week, and haven't for months before that. Would you rather turn your early revolver into a Will or a Gunblade? You'll probably attack a bit between spells, and Q scales a bit from bonus AD but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Stuff like sorcs/mercs, gunblade/wota, rylai, FoN, Zhonya, DC's the kind of items I'd get on him. Not sure if "avoiding buying mana" is worth getting Zhonya.
Why choose ? Go WotA + gunblade + Rylai + spirit visage.
Always kill never die.
PS : I had a penta with this build 1h ago. But a special kind of penta. The NO ASSIST penta :D Literal 1v5 into penta kill huehuehuehuehue.
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United States37500 Posts
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On January 29 2012 08:23 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 04:33 Alaric wrote:
On another topic, I've been playing some Mordekaiser this week, and haven't for months before that. Would you rather turn your early revolver into a Will or a Gunblade? You'll probably attack a bit between spells, and Q scales a bit from bonus AD but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Stuff like sorcs/mercs, gunblade/wota, rylai, FoN, Zhonya, DC's the kind of items I'd get on him. Not sure if "avoiding buying mana" is worth getting Zhonya. Why choose ? Go WotA + gunblade + Rylai + spirit visage. Always kill never die. PS : I had a penta with this build 1h ago. But a special kind of penta. The NO ASSIST penta :D Literal 1v5 into penta kill huehuehuehuehue.
I can't even fathom if this is dumb or awesome. o_o
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On January 29 2012 08:32 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 08:23 mr_tolkien wrote:On January 29 2012 04:33 Alaric wrote:
On another topic, I've been playing some Mordekaiser this week, and haven't for months before that. Would you rather turn your early revolver into a Will or a Gunblade? You'll probably attack a bit between spells, and Q scales a bit from bonus AD but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Stuff like sorcs/mercs, gunblade/wota, rylai, FoN, Zhonya, DC's the kind of items I'd get on him. Not sure if "avoiding buying mana" is worth getting Zhonya. Why choose ? Go WotA + gunblade + Rylai + spirit visage. Always kill never die. PS : I had a penta with this build 1h ago. But a special kind of penta. The NO ASSIST penta :D Literal 1v5 into penta kill huehuehuehuehue. I can't even fathom if this is dumb or awesome. o_o
I cheated though. I was lvling a friend's account, he is lvl16 >.> Kinda easy to pubstomp at this level, but still, first time I really pentaed 1v5.
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Any streams out there who plays a lot of Kennen? Just bought him and wanna learn some tricks. :D
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On January 29 2012 09:00 Zhiroo wrote:
Any streams out there who plays a lot of Kennen? Just bought him and wanna learn some tricks. :D
Kennen thread
Only streamer I know of is yellowpete, but that's AD Kennen.
But I'm fairly certain you don't learn anything about Kennen from streams anyways. He's very.... straightforward.
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EPT
