|
Public Service AnnouncementUse the Champion threads whenever appropriate. Don't use General Discussion simply out of ease. ===== If you want to whine about server lag, use the QQ thread. We all suffer alike when Riot servers kaput. No need to make a post about it in GD. |
On January 29 2012 12:55 phyvo wrote:
Rumble is tanky AP but building him tanky AP is obvious because he's melee.
Also Fizz.
If you're a sustained damage mage, tanky is the way to go. But if you're someone who blows all his stuff and then retreats for cooldowns then you just build damage with a bit of survivabilty like RoA and stuff.
That said, glass cannon malz OP. DC+WOTA+zhonya's+2xAA huehuehue 
Edit: exception - if you're Karthus, you build whatever the fuck you want, get a triple kill, revive then get a double kill while spamming /l and /t
|
So I just discovered that there are spell vamp/lifesteal quints. When were these added? More importantly, who thought this was a good idea?
|
Christmas I believe.. Xerath patch? I've been meaning to experiment with lifesteal quints but they're so damn expensive and 6% is rather low.
|
On January 29 2012 13:09 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 12:55 phyvo wrote:
Rumble is tanky AP but building him tanky AP is obvious because he's melee.
Also Fizz. If you're a sustained damage mage, tanky is the way to go. But if you're someone who blows all his stuff and then retreats for cooldowns then you just build damage with a bit of survivabilty like RoA and stuff.
There aren't really any mages like that in the mid-late game I think. Realistically I find AP just does not scale as hard as buying tank items.
On January 29 2012 13:14 arnath wrote:
So I just discovered that there are spell vamp/lifesteal quints. When were these added? More importantly, who thought this was a good idea?
I thought the lifesteal quints were gonna be amazing and I tried them and they just didn't work for me -_-. Didn't really do anything until late/late-mid and if I were runing for that I coulda used... I don't know, crit chance or attack speed or something.
|
Mages are way too diverse and you can basically build whatever the hell you want depending on the game. Some games, RoA if you need some beefiness and damage together. Tankier builds like WotA, rylais are great for dps mages. Standard burst casters like annie/brand are still generally best with the deathcap -> void route though.
Basically every single champ in the game builds at least 1 defensive item. While ranged AD's only really have BV, GA, or QSS as good defensive choices, and generally only build 1 defensive item or they'll lose a lot of damage, AP's get the benefit of being able to build items that give them tankiness along with damage (RoA, abyssal, zhonyas, rylais) so they're naturally just tankier with any build.
I don't see how choosing a lanning item like cata is "going towards tankier builds." People just build stuff that helps them in lane. Philostone used to be so OP broken that even mages would build 1 in mid half the time. That doesn't make them tankier, it just gives them more sustain, which was one of the main reasons people would actually get cata in the first place too.
Froggen just has a really weird anivia build. It works for him, so that's all well and good. But against a lot of anti-carries imo it's more optimal to just pick good peelers and build somewhat tanky (such as RoA, not warmogs) :x
And I think as time goes on you'll begin to see more and more optimal build choices because the less optimal ones will simply stop working as people figure out the game.
|
done tank annie a number of times recently, a build like wota warmogs is actually really strong on her
|
United States47024 Posts
On January 29 2012 13:09 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
If you're a sustained damage mage, tanky is the way to go. But if you're someone who blows all his stuff and then retreats for cooldowns then you just build damage with a bit of survivabilty like RoA and stuff.
What AP carries do not have a significant "sustained damage" spell with <5 second CD with blue buff? The few that only have medium-long CD spells are people like Sion and Morgana, who have to engage at close-range and need tankiness for that purpose anyway.
On January 29 2012 13:59 BlackPaladin wrote:
Basically every single champ in the game builds at least 1 defensive item. While ranged AD's only really have BV, GA, or QSS as good defensive choices, and generally only build 1 defensive item or they'll lose a lot of damage, AP's get the benefit of being able to build items that give them tankiness along with damage (RoA, abyssal, zhonyas, rylais) so they're naturally just tankier with any build.
There are plenty of Defensive+Offensive mixed items that are great for AD-based champions that get bought all the time on bruisers like Atma's and Wit's. The idea that AP-based champs get offensive/defensive mixed items and AD-based champs don't is patently false.
|
On January 29 2012 13:59 BlackPaladin wrote:
Basically every single champ in the game builds at least 1 defensive item. While ranged AD's only really have BV, GA, or QSS as good defensive choices, and generally only build 1 defensive item or they'll lose a lot of damage, AP's get the benefit of being able to build items that give them tankiness along with damage (RoA, abyssal, zhonyas, rylais) so they're naturally just tankier with any build.
You can also build warmogs on AD carries as your one defensive item. Don't forget that :~
I always make a conscious decision of what defensive item to buy. Makes me stay too long in shop. Like against veigar I want merc treads or some tenacity early on so he can't stun kill me. Same with AP sion.
Then against Morde if I'm AD carry, I get some MR (and a hexdrinker TT) because I always think Mordekaisers are after the AD carry.
|
Oh saintvicious read my thread right after I posted it ;( That's no fun, now it'll get spammed by everyone and downvoted to oblivion --
By the way I still think it's unacceptable that he frequently intentionally feeds and trolls on stream. (And I think the same way if others do that)
Volibear seems like a nice champion though even though I wouldn't jungle as him
Against Mordekaiser can't you just go QSS? It removes ulti right? That way even if you get bursted he doesn't get your clone, which is the main problem with morde. He gets buffed and then gets a clone that has a ton of health and like 300 dmg autos..
|
My point is someone like ryze/cass needs to build more tanky than someone like annie/brand. There are a lot of other factors too like range and mobility.
Basically I'm just saying you suddenly don't start building tanky on every AP. Depends on the particular champion and your playstyle.
|
On January 29 2012 14:17 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
My point is someone like ryze/cass needs to build more tanky than someone like annie/brand. There are a lot of other factors too like range and mobility.
don't really agree with that, A) it's a little weird that you mention ryze since he specifically gets damage from building specific tank items, and in fact only has 1 or 2 viable build paths at all B) you never woulda put cass in this category until tanky cass became a 'known' build C) I don't see why you would put annie and brand in the same category, the champions are very dissimilar and D) annie is quite a solid tanky champ, since I don't play brand I can't comment on him.
|
Hahahaha, opponent cait and soraka calling Akali "a dead champ" because she lost to a good player.
Akali is not a dead champ, just not as faceroll as before.
Plus people figured out that if you stop her early she can't snowball as hard.
|
On January 29 2012 14:21 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 14:17 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
My point is someone like ryze/cass needs to build more tanky than someone like annie/brand. There are a lot of other factors too like range and mobility. don't really agree with that, A) it's a little weird that you mention ryze since he specifically gets damage from building specific tank items, and in fact only has 1 or 2 viable build paths at all B) you never woulda put cass in this category until tanky cass became a 'known' build C) I don't see why you would put annie and brand in the same category, the champions are very dissimilar and D) annie is quite a solid tanky champ, since I don't play brand I can't comment on him.
Well yeah putting ryze there was definitely stupid. But I don't get why the rest of my argument doesn't make sense :/. I'm just saying that you guys suddenly going 'hey warmog annie is good' and all is just weird.
Like for cass, karth and swain, as long as they're in the fight they are doing significant amounts of sustained damage - either with spamming their spells or with AOE auras. So its valid to build tanky on them. But someone who throws out 3 damage spells from a decent range and then backs off for a few seconds to wait out cooldowns is still gonna focus on DC+void staff with some survivabilty like RoA, right?
|
What stream would you guys recommend watching? I've been watching SV and TOO lately but I'm getting kind of tired of watching solely jungle . Preferably something with some commentary
Thx in advance 
|
|
|
On January 29 2012 14:02 TheYango wrote:
There are plenty of Defensive+Offensive mixed items that are great for AD-based champions that get bought all the time on bruisers like Atma's and Wit's. The idea that AP-based champs get offensive/defensive mixed items and AD-based champs don't is patently false.
I said RANGED AD. Your main damage sources in a standard game are your AD ranged and your AP carry. Your bruiser is more of a tanky dps champ that can either be played as a more anti-carry role or a peeler. Sometimes you have 2 bruisers in your team comp from jungle + top even, 1 might peel, one might be more of an anti-carry.
Obviously those are not the only comps you run, BUT, that's "standard" to run atm and we're talking about more standard/optimal builds and choices in the first place I thought?
Warmogs has only ever been considered good on sivir as far as ranged AD's go, but that was more back when she had lower range and essentially had to be IN your champion model in order to just autoattack you, lol. I don't think any ranged AD should ever get warmogs anymore. :s If you need health BV/redpot are both better options than building a warmogs.
I used to do a tanky annie too, unsip. You get like 200 armor/MR and it was hilarious at times. (dude, you're talking to the guy who built tank veiger with warmogs nearly every single trolly TL inhouse :O ) But she gets innate tankiness from her e so you're better off with damage (deathcap) and magic pen (void) first anyway to abuse her strong midgame where she can 1 combo you. For burst mages the point of damage first is to abuse that midgame strength where they can 1 combo you. Would you seriously be afraid of an annie with sub-100 AP 25 minutes into a game? Cause honestly, I'm not.
Lategame, mages have so many defensive options though that you can build a million different things and they're all good cause half of them also give you some damage. So it's really game dependent. That's just the benefit of being AP, since lategame most burst casters scale like crap (can no longer combo people in 1 combo) so it kind of balances out. Like what AP champ nowadays in a full item build does not get one of the following: Zhonyas, abyssal, BV, QSS, rylais, RoA, WotA
Every single one except BV/QSS (both being situational) gives you some damage added onto the tankiness it gives. You more or less get the damage as an added bonus to the tankiness type you want (hp, MR, armor, or spellvamp for the hidden EHP)
|
On January 29 2012 14:30 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2012 14:21 UniversalSnip wrote:On January 29 2012 14:17 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
My point is someone like ryze/cass needs to build more tanky than someone like annie/brand. There are a lot of other factors too like range and mobility. don't really agree with that, A) it's a little weird that you mention ryze since he specifically gets damage from building specific tank items, and in fact only has 1 or 2 viable build paths at all B) you never woulda put cass in this category until tanky cass became a 'known' build C) I don't see why you would put annie and brand in the same category, the champions are very dissimilar and D) annie is quite a solid tanky champ, since I don't play brand I can't comment on him. Well yeah putting ryze there was definitely stupid. But I don't get why the rest of my argument doesn't make sense :/. I'm just saying that you guys suddenly going 'hey warmog annie is good' and all is just weird.
well I can't say why anyone else is saying it but I have been posting 'I really like most mages as tanky ap' for quite a while (at least a month) and my reasons are exactly as stated. It makes no difference to me whether other people like it or not, it might never catch on and I'd still feel it was a very good option and often correct.
Like for cass, Karthus and swain, as long as they're in the fight they are don't significant amounts on sustained damage - either with spamming a spell or with AOE auras. So its valid to build tanky on them. But someone who throws out 3 damage spells from a decent range and then backs off for a few seconds to wait out cooldowns is still gonna focus on DC+void staff with some survivabilty like RoA, right?
well for me it just comes down to tank items for the most part giving more value than ap items. Until you get deathcap ap items tend not to be very efficient at all and even afterwards they don't enjoy the kind of scaling items like phantom dancer and infinity edge give. When you build tank items you are giving up damage but it's not as much as you think since you can just fight for longer and get more casts off.
Would you seriously be afraid of an annie with sub-100 AP 25 minutes into a game? Cause honestly, I'm not.
I would potentially be concerned about that, yes. If she's hard to kill and she's latching onto my squishies' nuts she's gonna be outputting enough to be a threat.
|
If an ANNIE (625 range OP) is on your squishy's nutts every fight then your squishy is about as good as Phreak's builds.
|
On January 29 2012 14:51 BlackPaladin wrote:
If an ANNIE (625 range OP) is on your squishy's nutts every fight then your squishy is about as good as Phreak's builds.
you legitimately play her like a tanky hero... get the fuck in there
do you wanna just duo a normal or something and see if I feed and am useless? add me. I'm not saying it proves anything to play a normal but at least it'll show you what I'm getting at.
|
On a burst caster like Annie I feel really weak if I rush RoA instead of Dcap and rushing Warmog's would probably be even worse. But I can see it being ok to get survivability right after deathcap. You still have that really scary midgame damage and as people start surviving your burst you're transitioning into a more sustained damage build, rather than trying to up your damage. People's defensive stats will start to outscale your burst anyways, so even if you build void staff/hourglass after deathcap you'll never be at the scary one-shot-everyone level that you were when you first got deathcap. So it does make sense to build for survivability at that point over burst.
Also it would be super awesome if Tibbers scaled with bonus AD/bonus HP, so that we could have cool non-troll AD Annie builds.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
