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[Patch 1.0.0.132: Sejuani] General Discussion - Page 157

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Public Service Announcement
Use the Champion threads whenever appropriate.
Don't use General Discussion simply out of ease.
=====
If you want to whine about server lag, use the QQ thread. We all suffer alike when Riot servers kaput. No need to make a post about it in GD.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
January 29 2012 06:05 GMT
#3121
On January 29 2012 14:44 BlackPaladin wrote:
I said RANGED AD. Your main damage sources in a standard game are your AD ranged and your AP carry. Your bruiser is more of a tanky dps champ that can either be played as a more anti-carry role or a peeler. Sometimes you have 2 bruisers in your team comp from jungle + top even, 1 might peel, one might be more of an anti-carry.
Obviously those are not the only comps you run, BUT, that's "standard" to run atm and we're talking about more standard/optimal builds and choices in the first place I thought?

I think the difference is overblown, and that there are plenty of ADs that could do well by using Triforce, Atmogs, or Wit's (several DO get Triforce) instead of these glass-cannon builds. The idea that "ADs with good enough positioning don't need early defensive stats" comes from a point in time when not every melee carry had some combination of insane mobility/CC reduction), and when burst-threat APs didn't normally have ~1000 engagement range. But that's a discussion for another time.
Moderator
Offhand
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1869 Posts
January 29 2012 06:17 GMT
#3122
RoA and Rylais aren't "tanky AP" items. They're absurdly good AP items that just so happen to have a health component.
starfries
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada3508 Posts
January 29 2012 06:30 GMT
#3123
On January 29 2012 15:17 Offhand wrote:
RoA and Rylais aren't "tanky AP" items. They're absurdly good AP items that just so happen to have a health component.

That sounds like nitpicking... they give AP, and make you tanky. Why not just call them a tanky AP item? And they're both kind of mediocre from a damage perspective. I think they're a bit overrated if anything, unless you really need the utility (tons of mana or slow).
DJ – do you like ramen, Savior? Savior – not really. Bisu – I eat it often. Flash – I’m a maniac! | Foxer Fighting!
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
January 29 2012 06:45 GMT
#3124
On January 29 2012 15:17 Offhand wrote:
RoA and Rylais aren't "tanky AP" items. They're absurdly good AP items that just so happen to have a health component.

what would u consider tanky AP items then? Abyssal? What else? -.-;
anmolsinghmzn2009
Profile Joined June 2011
India1783 Posts
January 29 2012 06:46 GMT
#3125
On January 29 2012 15:30 starfries wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 15:17 Offhand wrote:
RoA and Rylais aren't "tanky AP" items. They're absurdly good AP items that just so happen to have a health component.

That sounds like nitpicking... they give AP, and make you tanky. Why not just call them a tanky AP item? And they're both kind of mediocre from a damage perspective. I think they're a bit overrated if anything, unless you really need the utility (tons of mana or slow).


I never like building a Rylai straight-up as a 2nd/3rd item unless I REALLY need the slow. Tbh, if you need to get a bit beefy on an AP, just get cata/belt+chainmail+negatron as and when you need it. Finishing those items into a rylai, abyssal etc early just gimps your damage too much.
Dunk first. Ask questions while dunking.
dooraven
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia2820 Posts
January 29 2012 06:53 GMT
#3126
On January 29 2012 15:05 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 14:44 BlackPaladin wrote:
I said RANGED AD. Your main damage sources in a standard game are your AD ranged and your AP carry. Your bruiser is more of a tanky dps champ that can either be played as a more anti-carry role or a peeler. Sometimes you have 2 bruisers in your team comp from jungle + top even, 1 might peel, one might be more of an anti-carry.
Obviously those are not the only comps you run, BUT, that's "standard" to run atm and we're talking about more standard/optimal builds and choices in the first place I thought?

I think the difference is overblown, and that there are plenty of ADs that could do well by using Triforce, Atmogs, or Wit's (several DO get Triforce) instead of these glass-cannon builds. The idea that "ADs with good enough positioning don't need early defensive stats" comes from a point in time when not every melee carry had some combination of insane mobility/CC reduction), and when burst-threat APs didn't normally have ~1000 engagement range. But that's a discussion for another time.


One thing that I would like to point out is that Yellowpete, CLGeu's AD carry, built a wits end in the game v mTL (g1) so that he wouldn't be stomped by mTl's double AP comp, which I believe worked very very well for him on Sivir.
Go go Alliance.
starfries
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada3508 Posts
January 29 2012 06:56 GMT
#3127
On January 29 2012 15:46 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 15:30 starfries wrote:
On January 29 2012 15:17 Offhand wrote:
RoA and Rylais aren't "tanky AP" items. They're absurdly good AP items that just so happen to have a health component.

That sounds like nitpicking... they give AP, and make you tanky. Why not just call them a tanky AP item? And they're both kind of mediocre from a damage perspective. I think they're a bit overrated if anything, unless you really need the utility (tons of mana or slow).


I never like building a Rylai straight-up as a 2nd/3rd item unless I REALLY need the slow. Tbh, if you need to get a bit beefy on an AP, just get cata/belt+chainmail+negatron as and when you need it. Finishing those items into a rylai, abyssal etc early just gimps your damage too much.

rush hat like real man, death is best cc

I kind of like going catalyst > deathcap > banshee's, pretty cute build for roaming around since people can't CC you and run away.
DJ – do you like ramen, Savior? Savior – not really. Bisu – I eat it often. Flash – I’m a maniac! | Foxer Fighting!
wussleeQ
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States3130 Posts
January 29 2012 06:59 GMT
#3128
FUCK YOU LEAGUE OF LEGENDS CLIENT. Just had to dodge a ranked because I couldn't select a champ from an empty list.

User was warned for this post
BW -> League -> CSGO
anmolsinghmzn2009
Profile Joined June 2011
India1783 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-29 07:12:45
January 29 2012 07:11 GMT
#3129
On January 29 2012 15:56 starfries wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 15:46 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
On January 29 2012 15:30 starfries wrote:
On January 29 2012 15:17 Offhand wrote:
RoA and Rylais aren't "tanky AP" items. They're absurdly good AP items that just so happen to have a health component.

That sounds like nitpicking... they give AP, and make you tanky. Why not just call them a tanky AP item? And they're both kind of mediocre from a damage perspective. I think they're a bit overrated if anything, unless you really need the utility (tons of mana or slow).


I never like building a Rylai straight-up as a 2nd/3rd item unless I REALLY need the slow. Tbh, if you need to get a bit beefy on an AP, just get cata/belt+chainmail+negatron as and when you need it. Finishing those items into a rylai, abyssal etc early just gimps your damage too much.

rush hat like real man, death is best cc

I kind of like going catalyst > deathcap > banshee's, pretty cute build for roaming around since people can't CC you and run away.


I said I don't like finishing rylai as my '2nd/3rd' main item. First item is always DC.
Don't you dare doubt me. >.>
Dunk first. Ask questions while dunking.
Niton
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2395 Posts
January 29 2012 07:24 GMT
#3130
On January 29 2012 15:17 Offhand wrote:
RoA and Rylais aren't "tanky AP" items. They're absurdly good AP items that just so happen to have a health component.


They're as much tanky items as Atma's or Wit's End are. They have components split fairly evenly between HP and AP, with a third effect (Mana / Slow) added in. How is Rylai's significantly different from Hourglass or Abyssal?
tree.hugger: Coming off of [(T)fantasy v. (T)Really] into [(T)Barracks v. (T)MVP] is like coming out of Manhattan into New Jersey. You just have to speed up and ignore it.
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-29 07:33:34
January 29 2012 07:32 GMT
#3131
On January 29 2012 15:56 starfries wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 15:46 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
On January 29 2012 15:30 starfries wrote:
On January 29 2012 15:17 Offhand wrote:
RoA and Rylais aren't "tanky AP" items. They're absurdly good AP items that just so happen to have a health component.

That sounds like nitpicking... they give AP, and make you tanky. Why not just call them a tanky AP item? And they're both kind of mediocre from a damage perspective. I think they're a bit overrated if anything, unless you really need the utility (tons of mana or slow).


I never like building a Rylai straight-up as a 2nd/3rd item unless I REALLY need the slow. Tbh, if you need to get a bit beefy on an AP, just get cata/belt+chainmail+negatron as and when you need it. Finishing those items into a rylai, abyssal etc early just gimps your damage too much.

rush hat like real man, death is best cc

I kind of like going catalyst > deathcap > banshee's, pretty cute build for roaming around since people can't CC you and run away.


Unless you build WotA or are reliant on mana there's no reason for an AP carry not to get 2-3 Drings and go Dcap -> Void staff or Zhonya's. Dring stacking is about as strong as cata in lane on most APs imo. I think that going Cata -> Dcap -> BV can be good on a few champions (Swain comes to mind) but for the most part Dring stack is better for winning your lane if you aren't super reliant on mana or if you aren't one of the APs that rushes WotA.
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
January 29 2012 07:56 GMT
#3132
On January 29 2012 16:32 overt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 15:56 starfries wrote:
On January 29 2012 15:46 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
On January 29 2012 15:30 starfries wrote:
On January 29 2012 15:17 Offhand wrote:
RoA and Rylais aren't "tanky AP" items. They're absurdly good AP items that just so happen to have a health component.

That sounds like nitpicking... they give AP, and make you tanky. Why not just call them a tanky AP item? And they're both kind of mediocre from a damage perspective. I think they're a bit overrated if anything, unless you really need the utility (tons of mana or slow).


I never like building a Rylai straight-up as a 2nd/3rd item unless I REALLY need the slow. Tbh, if you need to get a bit beefy on an AP, just get cata/belt+chainmail+negatron as and when you need it. Finishing those items into a rylai, abyssal etc early just gimps your damage too much.

rush hat like real man, death is best cc

I kind of like going catalyst > deathcap > banshee's, pretty cute build for roaming around since people can't CC you and run away.


Unless you build WotA or are reliant on mana there's no reason for an AP carry not to get 2-3 Drings and go Dcap -> Void staff or Zhonya's. Dring stacking is about as strong as cata in lane on most APs imo. I think that going Cata -> Dcap -> BV can be good on a few champions (Swain comes to mind) but for the most part Dring stack is better for winning your lane if you aren't super reliant on mana or if you aren't one of the APs that rushes WotA.



Its kinda what I like about Karthus. He doesn't insta burst people down but he does insane sustained dmg and his Q can do some nasty dmg as well. Glass cannon on him can work but so can tanky Karthus because even if you build all the "tanky" ap items on him he still does a lot of dmg.

But his passive makes him so relatively unique as well as his global nuke.
Never Knows Best.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22700 Posts
January 29 2012 08:58 GMT
#3133
On January 29 2012 15:59 wussleeQ wrote:
rage


If your champion list doesnt load use the search bar to search for a champion will force it to load. just remove the search again to see your entire list.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Norada
Profile Joined August 2010
China482 Posts
January 29 2012 09:05 GMT
#3134
That doesnt always work. I get this bug sometimes. Think it's related to an adobe error.

http://s7.postimage.org/i6xx50h7u/lol_fucked.jpg
Inflicted
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Australia18228 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-29 09:24:57
January 29 2012 09:19 GMT
#3135
On January 29 2012 15:53 dooraven wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 15:05 TheYango wrote:
On January 29 2012 14:44 BlackPaladin wrote:
I said RANGED AD. Your main damage sources in a standard game are your AD ranged and your AP carry. Your bruiser is more of a tanky dps champ that can either be played as a more anti-carry role or a peeler. Sometimes you have 2 bruisers in your team comp from jungle + top even, 1 might peel, one might be more of an anti-carry.
Obviously those are not the only comps you run, BUT, that's "standard" to run atm and we're talking about more standard/optimal builds and choices in the first place I thought?

I think the difference is overblown, and that there are plenty of ADs that could do well by using Triforce, Atmogs, or Wit's (several DO get Triforce) instead of these glass-cannon builds. The idea that "ADs with good enough positioning don't need early defensive stats" comes from a point in time when not every melee carry had some combination of insane mobility/CC reduction), and when burst-threat APs didn't normally have ~1000 engagement range. But that's a discussion for another time.


One thing that I would like to point out is that Yellowpete, CLGeu's AD carry, built a wits end in the game v mTL (g1) so that he wouldn't be stomped by mTl's double AP comp, which I believe worked very very well for him on Sivir.


Builds for AD carry that stray away from the glass cannon IE/BT into PD only work in a premade/if you trust your allies enough. Items like Wit's End and early defensive items (Wriggle's) means that you're basically relying on your team (mainly top and mid) to win the teamfights while you just focus on staying alive in order to gain gold/EXP and eventually become strong late-game.

Also: Has anyone actually tried AP Corki before? His Q is on a medium CD easy-to-hit skill with pretty good damage and alright ratios (0.4AP?), which lets you harass quite well in lane. His W can do around the same amount of damage/sec as Rumble's ult (but on a short duration = less damage overall) and his R can be really strong, especially if they bunch up. He can also gank pretty well, as he can Valkyrie in and his Q+R(big one) combo can deal around 700-800 damage.

The problem is that I'm having trouble finding a good build order for him. I've tried Doran -> Tear -> Deathcap -> AA, but AA isn't worth the AP and it leaves you relatively squishy (making it hard to use W in a teamfight). Maybe something like Rylai -> Deathcap -> Zhonya or a spell-vamp Hextech -> Rylai could work.
Liquipedia"Expert"
wussleeQ
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States3130 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-29 09:19:43
January 29 2012 09:19 GMT
#3136
On January 29 2012 17:58 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 15:59 wussleeQ wrote:
rage


If your champion list doesnt load use the search bar to search for a champion will force it to load. just remove the search again to see your entire list.

Tried it. Tried everything I was used to doing when something like that happens lol. What norada says up there^^
BW -> League -> CSGO
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
January 29 2012 09:43 GMT
#3137
Even then you don't have to dodge, just roll with random. A legitimate reason to hardrandom is something a bunch of people would love to have.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-29 09:51:26
January 29 2012 09:51 GMT
#3138
Hmmm, I think I just jumped a level in LoL, in terms of game mechanics and game sense. I've recently been noticing that I've been able to get my CS much higher than I would previously been able too. Even just playing jungler I'll out CS everyone on my team, even in a 40min long match. I don't know why people are so obsessed with getting the kills, but then don't cs at all. The best way to keep a lead in the lane is to make sure you keep your CS up. Every time I see my bot lane with 3 kills up but down in cs, I just want to face palm.

Tl;dr
CS and gold wins games, not just kills.
liftlift > tsm
De4ngus
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6533 Posts
January 29 2012 10:03 GMT
#3139
killing heroes more fun than killing creeps ok.
GANDHISAUCE
BluzMan
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Russian Federation4235 Posts
January 29 2012 10:06 GMT
#3140
People need to start to realize that item builds (on AP carries in particular) are not something that is set in stone at a particular moment (like, "k we all build WotA now"), but instead are completely based on team comps and the items your opponents build. Like if you see an IE/PD Ashe in the enemy team, it's retarded to go for Warmog's on a caster because with a D-cap you could just one-shot her. On the other hand, when they have Kennen/Ahri who are guaranteed to do their damage no matter what, but have little to do when their ults are down (because their ults are really like 50% of their DPS), it might make sense to build some HP to outlast them.

People talk too much about metagame changes and jump on bandwagons too eagerly. Survivability builds on certain casters (mostly around RoA) have been around for ages, for instance, you built Annie tanky before her AP ratios got buffed on almost everything.
You want 20 good men, but you need a bad pussy.
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