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On January 18 2012 02:39 turdburgler wrote:
i said buckshot was a melee ability, in the sense that it rewards you for being closer to the target, where as everything else about playing ad carry is about playing at max range. dash i said was in their words, anti fun. because it serves 2 different rolls which they said they dont like.
I can agree that it goes against the wording, but you're not really taking into account the risk/reward ratio.
For low risk/low reward, you can hit with Buckshot at max range for less damage and only use his dash for the buff. On the other hand, you can go high risk/high reward and dash in, max damage buckshot, and not get the full potential of the AS buff.
Going for one or the other in all situations is never the best choice. Buckshot/Quickdraw is a perfectly acceptable combo, in my opinion, because it gives a lot of flexibility of choice to Grave's gameplay.
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On January 18 2012 02:16 turdburgler wrote:
on the subject of graves he also said abilities which serve 2 distinct purposes are anti fun, because you arent ever sure what the optimal use is, why does graves's movement ability also buff his dps. "do i use it to engage? do i save it for the dps? do i need to save it for a peel?"
his comments on false choice: WHY DOES LEE SIN HAVE AN AP SHIELD?! you never want to build ap on him but it gives bad players the idea that it might be good, its a false choice. if they dont want abilities to scale just dont let them scale, dont make them scale with a stat you dont want.
I'll answer this. One of the primary paradigm shifts when creating LoL was the idea that all abilities should be able to scale. This led to the ideas of AP and AD. If you wanted to autoattack harder, buy AD. If you want to cast spells harder, buy AP. While a very simplified statement, the core of it stands true. This concept is what was the driving force behind some of the stranger kits of older champions, such as Tristan and Master Yi. Both of these champions want to autoattack people but at the same time their spells all scale off AP.
The advent of the idea of AD scaling and the AD caster changed a lot of things. Most obviously, it introduced a form of powercreep where certain champions were simply superior in many ways and functions by virtue of having a much more streamlined and efficient form of scaling. Graves and Talon are two of the most obvious examples that come to mind, but Renekton follows swiftly behind. However, the discussion of AD scaling in spells will be beyond the scope of this post. Maybe I will come back to it some other time.
So we return to the idea of AP scaling. Why then do we still have AP scaling on champions that also have AD scaling (such as Jarmander Shield)? The idea behind this is that these skills were considered inappropriate to have AD scaling. Could you imagine Jarmander with AD scaling shield? It would be the nuts. Further more, from a lore or fantasy perspective, AP scaling on these abilities makes more sense. Shields are like summoning your inner spirit and ability to block damage, and is about your inner power, and hence AP. Riven is a break from this concept as she was designed to be a purely AD scaling caster with some nuisances to her. Her skillset draws heavily from Xypherous' experiences from fighting games and Magic the Gathering.. but again I digress.
Since AD scaling would be inappropriate on several champion's skillsets but the mantra is that all skills should scale, there logical conclusion is that these skills have AP scaling. You may argue that these scaling ratios are useless. Perhaps they are. However, they're not hurting you by being there. If you do buy AP, fine, if you don't, that's also fine. It also means that bonus stats from items such as Trinity give you a small extra boost, albeit rather negligible.
Your comparison to false choice is also wrong. False choice is like if Swain's Q did 90% slow. Do you run or do you fight? Either involves you taking lots of damage and he'll kite you either way. Therefore there is no correct solution. (Technically, you fight, get kited, do no damage and die anyway but it's better than running and dying.) However, quirky scalings do not fall into this category because building AP isn't "wrong" in the sense it's equal to doing nothing. It's an incredibly huge waste of gold and stat efficiency, but the net gain isn't zero or negative. Therefore there is no false choice involved here. Just bad choices.
The same here goes for Graves' dash ability. It has a lot of things all in one. Having lots of abilities isn't an issue of unclear optimisation in the sense can tell when you want to do something or not. Need a run over a ledge? Scoot over. Did you waste the AS boost? Yes, but it's not like you needed it when running away anyway. Want to get more AS? Learn to adapt to the dash and adjust for it, such as just before you get into the fight, or using it to sidescoot and shoot. Being able to do many things but never all at the same time isn't unclear optimisation. Unclear optimisation is when you cannot tell whether the use of an ability is good or not. Graves' dash is because you can tell if it was a good play or not.
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but running from a 90% slow isnt doing nothing, its putting you closer to your base, it might put swain out of position to die, it helps your team get to you. running from a 90% slow seems to be the direct equal of buying ap on lee win
and what you said on ad scaling shield, 1 word, riven. so clearly it can be done and not be full retard
On January 18 2012 02:42 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 02:39 turdburgler wrote:
i said buckshot was a melee ability, in the sense that it rewards you for being closer to the target, where as everything else about playing ad carry is about playing at max range. dash i said was in their words, anti fun. because it serves 2 different rolls which they said they dont like. I can agree that it goes against the wording, but you're not really taking into account the risk/reward ratio. For low risk/low reward, you can hit with Buckshot at max range for less damage and only use his dash for the buff. On the other hand, you can go high risk/high reward and dash in, max damage buckshot, and not get the full potential of the AS buff. Going for one or the other in all situations is never the best choice. Buckshot/Quickdraw is a perfectly acceptable combo, in my opinion, because it gives a lot of flexibility of choice to Grave's gameplay.
but for huge portions of the game because of grave's retarded steroid, smoke screen and passive, he faces no risk at being caught out, atleast not as much as other ads.
if ashes arrow thing worked like buck shot i would agree with you, it would be a huge risk to try and get bonus dmg out of it, but again in that situation it would go against their own rules on fun. zileas and co have done a great job designing the game and obviously everyone loves to hear designer thoughts on things, i just think its odd that he revealed so much about how he thinks about design, because its just gonna have dicks like me try and pick holes in it.
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On January 18 2012 02:16 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 02:12 JackDino wrote:On January 18 2012 02:10 turdburgler wrote:On January 18 2012 01:58 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 18 2012 01:51 Shiv. wrote:On January 18 2012 01:47 sob3k wrote:
Is it just me or is Sejuani pretty much the most anti fun champ possible.
The entire character is just a giant inescapable slow that does basically no damage. I've gotten caught by her a few times now and its just retarded, its basically pre nerf skarner with only a buffed Q and nothing else. Once she gets close to you you might as well just take your hands off the keyboard and mouse and go read a book. Anti fun is such a strange term. I still want to have a serious discussion with the guy who introduced it. Meh. Anyway, yeah, from what I've seen so far, she's insanely annoying but doesn't really hurt. You'd want to talk to my friend at Riot then. he brings up melee abilities on ranged feel stupid, then why does buckshot encourage you to use your only escape to run into their face to use it? Surviving with 10hp because you dodged the last hit is anti fun. Getting crit for 200 by 4% crit @ lvl1 is fun. >.> on the subject of graves he also said abilities which serve 2 distinct purposes are anti fun, because you arent ever sure what the optimal use is, why does graves's movement ability also buff his dps. "do i use it to engage? do i save it for the dps? do i need to save it for a peel?" his comments on false choice: WHY DOES LEE SIN HAVE AN AP SHIELD?! you never want to build ap on him but it gives bad players the idea that it might be good, its a false choice. if they dont want abilities to scale just dont let them scale, dont make them scale with a stat you dont want. Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 02:15 Phrost wrote:On January 18 2012 02:10 turdburgler wrote:On January 18 2012 01:58 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 18 2012 01:51 Shiv. wrote:On January 18 2012 01:47 sob3k wrote:
Is it just me or is Sejuani pretty much the most anti fun champ possible.
The entire character is just a giant inescapable slow that does basically no damage. I've gotten caught by her a few times now and its just retarded, its basically pre nerf skarner with only a buffed Q and nothing else. Once she gets close to you you might as well just take your hands off the keyboard and mouse and go read a book. Anti fun is such a strange term. I still want to have a serious discussion with the guy who introduced it. Meh. Anyway, yeah, from what I've seen so far, she's insanely annoying but doesn't really hurt. You'd want to talk to my friend at Riot then. he brings up melee abilities on ranged feel stupid, then why does buckshot encourage you to use your only escape to run into their face to use it? It's not a melee ability, it's more effective when used at close range but there are risks associated with this. If buckshot was literally only usable when right next to an enemy, it would suck too. But you can cast buckshot from range for less damage so its either a false choice, or its a melee ability, in his own words both are anti fun.
It's not anti-fun. It's an anti-pattern. There's a big difference. You want to TRY and avoid anti-patterns, but it's not a strict rule or anything. It's a lot like music composition. There are a lot of "rules", but good composers break them all the time because they know what they're doing and realize they are general guidelines.
And you can't just say a skill is "anti-fun", the way Zileas uses it is as a noun, not an adjective. So some skills carry a greater amount of anti-fun for your opponent than the fun they provide for you, which is an anti-pattern.
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Thanks everyone for explaining it so kindly.
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On January 18 2012 02:44 turdburgler wrote:
but running from a 90% slow isnt doing nothing, its putting you closer to your base, it might put swain out of position to die, it helps your team get to you. running from a 90% slow seems to be the direct equal of buying ap on lee win
and what you said on ad scaling shield, 1 word, riven. so clearly it can be done and not be full retard
but for huge portions of the game because of grave's retarded steroid, smoke screen and passive, he faces no risk at being caught out, atleast not as much as other ads.
if ashes arrow thing worked like buck shot i would agree with you, it would be a huge risk to try and get bonus dmg out of it, but again in that situation it would go against their own rules on fun. zileas and co have done a great job designing the game and obviously everyone loves to hear designer thoughts on things, i just think its odd that he revealed so much about how he thinks about design, because its just gonna have dicks like me try and pick holes in it.
Well, you can either be the guy who awkwardly tries to nitpick the small details leading from a poor understanding of the abstract concept being tackled, or the type of person who thinks 'Aha, I see that even though he didn't cover every possible case/didn't argue everything perfectly, he's onto something about good game design that could be fleshed out further.'
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United States37500 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:49 Shiv. wrote:
Thanks everyone for explaining it so kindly.
It's what we do here.
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Champions with unclear scaling may not be false choice but it *is* confusing. It's the whole reason why Shyv W scales with AD rather than AP because people didn't know what to build and Riot wanted to give them an easy answer.
Honestly so much of game design just seems completely arbitrary. Whenever discussions like this come up I feel like throwing my hands up in the air and saying "I wouldn't do that if I was designing my own game but whatever".
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United States37500 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:44 turdburgler wrote:but running from a 90% slow isnt doing nothing, its putting you closer to your base, it might put swain out of position to die, it helps your team get to you. running from a 90% slow seems to be the direct equal of buying ap on lee win and what you said on ad scaling shield, 1 word, riven. so clearly it can be done and not be full retard Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 02:42 Requizen wrote:On January 18 2012 02:39 turdburgler wrote:
i said buckshot was a melee ability, in the sense that it rewards you for being closer to the target, where as everything else about playing ad carry is about playing at max range. dash i said was in their words, anti fun. because it serves 2 different rolls which they said they dont like. I can agree that it goes against the wording, but you're not really taking into account the risk/reward ratio. For low risk/low reward, you can hit with Buckshot at max range for less damage and only use his dash for the buff. On the other hand, you can go high risk/high reward and dash in, max damage buckshot, and not get the full potential of the AS buff. Going for one or the other in all situations is never the best choice. Buckshot/Quickdraw is a perfectly acceptable combo, in my opinion, because it gives a lot of flexibility of choice to Grave's gameplay. but for huge portions of the game because of grave's retarded steroid, smoke screen and passive, he faces no risk at being caught out, atleast not as much as other ads. if ashes arrow thing worked like buck shot i would agree with you, it would be a huge risk to try and get bonus dmg out of it, but again in that situation it would go against their own rules on fun. zileas and co have done a great job designing the game and obviously everyone loves to hear designer thoughts on things, i just think its odd that he revealed so much about how he thinks about design, because its just gonna have dicks like me try and pick holes in it.
Let's try not to be dicks here, mmk?
Zileas made that post so the general public that play LoL could have a better understanding of how things are done at Riot.
MoonBear and I do our best to explain things in more detail.
If you want to adamantly pick holes at things, you're right, that does make you a dick. Game design is not about cover 100% of the points and making all the champions looking alike. If you can't understand why champions like Vayne and Graves were introduced to Ranged AD, then there's really no hope in convincing you otherwise.
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im not saying i dont understand it, it just seems to break their own rules. and on a kinda similar subject, this probably is why it feels graves outclasses the older ads. his abilities working well at range and close, his multipurpose e. breaking the rules to spice things up can be a good thing, but if only some champs get to break the rules then whats gonna happen to older champs like ashe?
ashe had 1 remaining niche, perma slow. now the new champ is just ashe, except you can bring a good ad too. and his ult is better and his slow is better and he has better aoe and less mana problems....
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On January 18 2012 02:44 turdburgler wrote:
but running from a 90% slow isnt doing nothing, its putting you closer to your base, it might put swain out of position to die, it helps your team get to you. running from a 90% slow seems to be the direct equal of buying ap on lee win
and what you said on ad scaling shield, 1 word, riven. so clearly it can be done and not be full retard
This is one of the biggest reasons a number of people think Riven is absurdly overpowered though. Heroes where you can build pure offense items and get lots of defense from it scale too well to be a part of this game. Prenerf Jax and Riven are a testament to this. I could understand if they actually had a very weak early game to compensate, but they don't so they are in this league of their own.
On January 18 2012 03:08 turdburgler wrote:
im not saying i dont understand it, it just seems to break their own rules. and on a kinda similar subject, this probably is why it feels graves outclasses the older ads. his abilities working well at range and close, his multipurpose e. breaking the rules to spice things up can be a good thing, but if only some champs get to break the rules then whats gonna happen to older champs like ashe?
ashe had 1 remaining niche, perma slow. now the new champ is just ashe, except you can bring a good ad too. and his ult is better and his slow is better and he has better aoe and less mana problems....
Ashe is still the only ad carry that can initiate. ECA is such a game changing ability that I can't believe ashe has fallen off so hard.
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On January 18 2012 03:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 02:44 turdburgler wrote:
but running from a 90% slow isnt doing nothing, its putting you closer to your base, it might put swain out of position to die, it helps your team get to you. running from a 90% slow seems to be the direct equal of buying ap on lee win
and what you said on ad scaling shield, 1 word, riven. so clearly it can be done and not be full retard This is one of the biggest reasons a number of people think Riven is absurdly overpowered though. Heroes where you can build pure offense items and get lots of defense from it scale too well to be a part of this game. Prenerf Jax and Riven are a testament to this. I could understand if they actually had a very weak early game to compensate, but they don't so they are in this league of their own. Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 03:08 turdburgler wrote:
im not saying i dont understand it, it just seems to break their own rules. and on a kinda similar subject, this probably is why it feels graves outclasses the older ads. his abilities working well at range and close, his multipurpose e. breaking the rules to spice things up can be a good thing, but if only some champs get to break the rules then whats gonna happen to older champs like ashe?
ashe had 1 remaining niche, perma slow. now the new champ is just ashe, except you can bring a good ad too. and his ult is better and his slow is better and he has better aoe and less mana problems.... Ashe is still the only ad carry that can initiate. ECA is such a game changing ability that I can't believe ashe has fallen off so hard.
What people don't understand is that anyone dies to focus fire though, especially those without hp/resistances. Sure having a shield that scales with ad is nice, but if you're caught it won't save you. That said, people dont'seem to know how to actually swap targets in fights. It's why some "tanks" tend to do good lol.
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sivir can initiate with ulti.. somewhat..
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On January 18 2012 03:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 02:44 turdburgler wrote:
but running from a 90% slow isnt doing nothing, its putting you closer to your base, it might put swain out of position to die, it helps your team get to you. running from a 90% slow seems to be the direct equal of buying ap on lee win
and what you said on ad scaling shield, 1 word, riven. so clearly it can be done and not be full retard This is one of the biggest reasons a number of people think Riven is absurdly overpowered though. Heroes where you can build pure offense items and get lots of defense from it scale too well to be a part of this game. Prenerf Jax and Riven are a testament to this. I could understand if they actually had a very weak early game to compensate, but they don't so they are in this league of their own. Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 03:08 turdburgler wrote:
im not saying i dont understand it, it just seems to break their own rules. and on a kinda similar subject, this probably is why it feels graves outclasses the older ads. his abilities working well at range and close, his multipurpose e. breaking the rules to spice things up can be a good thing, but if only some champs get to break the rules then whats gonna happen to older champs like ashe?
ashe had 1 remaining niche, perma slow. now the new champ is just ashe, except you can bring a good ad too. and his ult is better and his slow is better and he has better aoe and less mana problems.... Ashe is still the only ad carry that can initiate. ECA is such a game changing ability that I can't believe ashe has fallen off so hard.
but initiate isnt what your ad is for. whats the point of being the ad carry if your tool kit doesnt allow you to carry. compare her to vayne because they are both good at chasing down people. vayne doesnt need to land a hit to chase, and her passive out ranges attack ranges, ashe needs to be in range to continue to chase. vayne is just plain better.
vayne also have a movement ability, allows better chasing and survival, ashe has her slow as her main ability, her passive is terrible in team fights as it only boost your late game crit by 10% (if your lucky) once.
ashes stun allows the fight to start, but its a skill shot and scales from ap. this enable it to sometimes fail, vaynes stun is a target, requires some skill but even when its not possible to stun its still a peel of equal use to ashes.
once the fight starts ashe has less damage straight up, vayne has small ad boost from ult and then silver bolts. ashe has her spread shot which deals moderate damage once. vayne again is just flat out superior.
IF heroes like skarner, gp, rammus, amumu. and items like reverie didnt exist, ashe MIGHT be viable because of a unique ability to get the engage you want. but they do exist and they are in the form of either 1 item on 1 person, or a hero who is also strong. ashe has no niche and no damage. pretty easy to see why she fell off
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Here's Ashe only possible niche right now: CDR+APen vs squishy/bursty teams.
Now where have you read about that before?
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On January 18 2012 03:15 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 03:12 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 18 2012 02:44 turdburgler wrote:
but running from a 90% slow isnt doing nothing, its putting you closer to your base, it might put swain out of position to die, it helps your team get to you. running from a 90% slow seems to be the direct equal of buying ap on lee win
and what you said on ad scaling shield, 1 word, riven. so clearly it can be done and not be full retard This is one of the biggest reasons a number of people think Riven is absurdly overpowered though. Heroes where you can build pure offense items and get lots of defense from it scale too well to be a part of this game. Prenerf Jax and Riven are a testament to this. I could understand if they actually had a very weak early game to compensate, but they don't so they are in this league of their own. On January 18 2012 03:08 turdburgler wrote:
im not saying i dont understand it, it just seems to break their own rules. and on a kinda similar subject, this probably is why it feels graves outclasses the older ads. his abilities working well at range and close, his multipurpose e. breaking the rules to spice things up can be a good thing, but if only some champs get to break the rules then whats gonna happen to older champs like ashe?
ashe had 1 remaining niche, perma slow. now the new champ is just ashe, except you can bring a good ad too. and his ult is better and his slow is better and he has better aoe and less mana problems.... Ashe is still the only ad carry that can initiate. ECA is such a game changing ability that I can't believe ashe has fallen off so hard. What people don't understand is that anyone dies to focus fire though, especially those without hp/resistances. Sure having a shield that scales with ad is nice, but if you're caught it won't save you. That said, people dont'seem to know how to actually swap targets in fights. It's why some "tanks" tend to do good lol.
Yes, there are counters to everything in this game, but defense scaling with offense is a broken concept in my opinion and should be removed from the game. It makes some characters scale too well and turn into "hypercarry" status where you have to shut them down in lane or lose the game. I think this concept is flawed when they aren't actually weaker in the early game than the other champions. Having Riven on your team doesn't automatically win you the game, but if it's a longer game chances are you're the strongest character in the game unless you're under farmed substantially.
Plus due to the interactions of shields, lifesteal, and resists it's incredibly effective to make a GA on Riven. Glass cannon builds generally aren't very useful, but they shouldn't provide you with any sort of defensive stats. There's a reason there isn't a wide variety of items that provide attack damage and health.
On January 18 2012 03:19 freelander wrote:
sivir can initiate with ulti.. somewhat..
She can help your team run up to something, but they can just run away. To initiate you have to force conflict where somebody is going to die. Sivir ulti is like Reverie. It makes it a lot easier to use certain initiations.
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On January 18 2012 03:23 spinesheath wrote:
Here's Ashe only possible niche right now: CDR+APen vs squishy/bursty teams.
Now where have you read about that before?
GP10 ashe better huehuehue.
On a serious note, anyone who builds tanky enough is the best initiator, you just run in like a retard, everyone will focus you because you are all alone, but because you are tanky enough your team will kill them because you're almost dead and they won't focus anyone else.
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Dat vlad buff :D
Gonna be owning shit once that patch gets online.
I'm only like level 15 so take this for what it is but I actually felt perfectly comfortable with vlad as he was. Granted I've played the majority of my games as him so maybe I've gotten used to it or maybe since I'm only level 15 the people I'm playing are really bad, but aside from a little early game weakness I've never felt like I was at a huge disadvantage.
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I wouldn't advise theorycrafting based on bad opponents. I've played warmogs/randuins/shurelyas sona in normals and just right clicked to the other end of their team and it won teamfights for us like 3 times in a row before they f igured out to ignore me.
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On January 18 2012 03:23 spinesheath wrote:
Here's Ashe only possible niche right now: CDR+APen vs squishy/bursty teams.
Now where have you read about that before?
Ghostblade/Brutalizer Ashe was my very first character, after I finished the tutorial and googled "Ashe guide"
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EPT
