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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:10 turdburgler wrote: he brings up melee abilities on ranged feel stupid, then why does buckshot encourage you to use your only escape to run into their face to use it? Surviving with 10hp because you dodged the last hit is anti fun. Getting crit for 200 by 4% crit @ lvl1 is fun. >.> | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:07 Shiv. wrote: Thanks for the link! While I get the idea of anti-fun, I am not sure how to measure the amount of fun anyone has while doing something. Like, how do they decide on mechanic is more anti-fun to play against than fun to play? Sure, Manaburn is annoying to play against, but so is a perma-Q-ing Skarner. Yet, I'd love to burn mana bars left and right and I surely do love perma-Q-ing as Skarner, and I'd say I enjoy it about equally as much as I hate it when I have to face it. My problem is: it's been like that with every mechanic in any game I've ever played. Manta Style Morphling, AM-PoM-Pyro mages back when trinkets used to stack, 2 Rax rushes. I have always loved and hated those mechanics equally. I can see if something is overpowered and they need to nerf it because of balance, I can't wrap my head around the statement that something creates more misery on the one side than fun on the other. I think it's more the idea that everything should have some sort of counter. "Anti-fun" for me is things that you can't avoid, and once hit with, you can't do anything about. Or, from a different side, Trynd's ult is anti-fun, since the only thing you can really do about it is try to chain CC him for the duration, which is silly. For example. You can't really do much about being snared by Nevermove, but you can dodge it in the first place, so it's not anti-fun. Neither are his birds, since you can run from the leash distance if you want. Jax's old Counterstrike was kind of anti-fun, since you'd see the buff on him and be like "oh, well he's going to jump me from a huge distance and stun me, nothing I can do about it except take it". I don't think Sejuani's Ult or Passive are anti fun (since you can dodge the ult and run before she gets to you with her passive), but the idea of "oh, well she just jumped on me from the bush/over a wall and I couldn't possibly dodge and now she permafrosts me and I can't do shit about it" is pretty anti-fun. I could be wrong, haven't played against her enough to say more, but that's my initial impression. | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:10 turdburgler wrote: he brings up melee abilities on ranged feel stupid, then why does buckshot encourage you to use your only escape to run into their face to use it? It's not a melee ability, it's more effective when used at close range but there are risks associated with this. If buckshot was literally only usable when right next to an enemy, it would suck too. But you can cast buckshot from range for less damage | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:12 JackDino wrote: Surviving with 10hp because you dodged the last hit is anti fun. Getting crit for 200 by 4% crit @ lvl1 is fun. >.> on the subject of graves he also said abilities which serve 2 distinct purposes are anti fun, because you arent ever sure what the optimal use is, why does graves's movement ability also buff his dps. "do i use it to engage? do i save it for the dps? do i need to save it for a peel?" his comments on false choice: WHY DOES LEE SIN HAVE AN AP SHIELD?! you never want to build ap on him but it gives bad players the idea that it might be good, its a false choice. if they dont want abilities to scale just dont let them scale, dont make them scale with a stat you dont want. On January 18 2012 02:15 Phrost wrote: It's not a melee ability, it's more effective when used at close range but there are risks associated with this. If buckshot was literally only usable when right next to an enemy, it would suck too. But you can cast buckshot from range for less damage so its either a false choice, or its a melee ability, in his own words both are anti fun. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Chrispy
Canada5878 Posts
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OreoBoi
Canada1639 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:07 Shiv. wrote: Thanks for the link! While I get the idea of anti-fun, I am not sure how to measure the amount of fun anyone has while doing something. Like, how do they decide on mechanic is more anti-fun to play against than fun to play? Sure, Manaburn is annoying to play against, but so is a perma-Q-ing Skarner. Yet, I'd love to burn mana bars left and right and I surely do love perma-Q-ing as Skarner, and I'd say I enjoy it about equally as much as I hate it when I have to face it. My problem is: it's been like that with every mechanic in any game I've ever played. Manta Style Morphling, AM-PoM-Pyro mages back when trinkets used to stack, 2 Rax rushes. I have always loved and hated those mechanics equally. I can see if something is overpowered and they need to nerf it because of balance, I can't wrap my head around the statement that something creates more misery on the one side than fun on the other. Going off on a tangent here but since you're asking: When Zileas (and Riot) are using the fun/anti-fun paradigm, you really have to nit-pick the little details. Skarner perma-Q might be annoying but it's nowhere comparable if a Demon Hunter Mana Burn was ported into LoL. In top lane, Skarner can chase after you with Q, expend mana while doing so. You have a variety of choices to deal with this situation. Stand and fight, CC him (Panth stun), jump away (Trynd spin), Flash, Ghost. It's an irritant about Skarner's kit but you can react. That's the main point. Compare this to Mana Burn. You're going to be losing mana+taking damage very 10-15 seconds with no way to avoid it. Baring you standing at tower all lane, there's nothing to stop a champion from walking up to you, poke your mana pool, and running away. There's nothing you can to do stop (or react) to you losing mana every couple of seconds. | ||
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jacosajh
2919 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:10 turdburgler wrote: he brings up melee abilities on ranged feel stupid, then why does buckshot encourage you to use your only escape to run into their face to use it? Again, it's not a blanket statement. Doing Grave's EQ takes a risk assessment. Your trade greater damage for the possibility of getting caught and taking additional damage that isn't equal to a face on Buckshot. | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:13 Requizen wrote: I think it's more the idea that everything should have some sort of counter. "Anti-fun" for me is things that you can't avoid, and once hit with, you can't do anything about. Or, from a different side, Trynd's ult is anti-fun, since the only thing you can really do about it is try to chain CC him for the duration, which is silly. For example. You can't really do much about being snared by Nevermove, but you can dodge it in the first place, so it's not anti-fun. Neither are his birds, since you can run from the leash distance if you want. Jax's old Counterstrike was kind of anti-fun, since you'd see the buff on him and be like "oh, well he's going to jump me from a huge distance and stun me, nothing I can do about it except take it". I don't think Sejuani's Ult or Passive are anti fun (since you can dodge the ult and run before she gets to you with her passive), but the idea of "oh, well she just jumped on me from the bush/over a wall and I couldn't possibly dodge and now she permafrosts me and I can't do shit about it" is pretty anti-fun. I could be wrong, haven't played against her enough to say more, but that's my initial impression. Zileas says: Anti-fun is the negative experience your opponents feel when you do something that prevents them from 'playing their game' or doing activities they consider fun. While everything useful you can do as a player is likely to cause SOME anti-fun in your opponents, it only becomes a design issue when the 'anti-fun' created on your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. So, yeah, I know it's frustrating when a Trynd charges in and ults, but it IS counterable. And I don't see how it isn't LOTS of fun for the Trynd to do so, hence my problem understanding the whole concept. Personally, I consider Shurelya-Flash-Ults from Skarner a lot worse than Tryndamere, but then again, I enjoy doing it a lot. I can't do anything about the mechanic either besides QSS-Flash on my own, but I'm already slowed by SkarnerQ and at a great disadvantage positioning wise. How is that less anti-fun than, say, Trynd ult or manaburn? I get your points and I'm not trying to say you are wrong at all, but I just... I don't know. Apparently, I'm not able to fully grasp the concept the way Zileas seems to look at it. On January 18 2012 02:19 NeoIllusions wrote: Going off on a tangent here but since you're asking: When Zileas (and Riot) are using the fun/anti-fun paradigm, you really have to nit-pick the little details. Skarner perma-Q might be annoying but it's nowhere comparable if a Demon Hunter Mana Burn was ported into LoL. In top lane, Skarner can chase after you with Q, expend mana while doing so. You have a variety of choices to deal with this situation. Stand and fight, CC him (Panth stun), jump away (Trynd spin), Flash, Ghost. It's an irritant about Skarner's kit but you can react. That's the main point. Compare this to Mana Burn. You're going to be losing mana+taking damage very 10-15 seconds with no way to avoid it. Baring you standing at tower all lane, there's nothing to stop a champion from walking up to you, poke your mana pool, and running away. There's nothing you can to do stop (or react) to you losing mana every couple of seconds. Why can't you CC him under the tower, spin away so he takes free hits, flash or ghost from the manaburn, too? Honestly asking because I'm really trying to understand the whole concept. | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:13 Requizen wrote: I think it's more the idea that everything should have some sort of counter. "Anti-fun" for me is things that you can't avoid, and once hit with, you can't do anything about. Or, from a different side, Trynd's ult is anti-fun, since the only thing you can really do about it is try to chain CC him for the duration, which is silly. For example. You can't really do much about being snared by Nevermove, but you can dodge it in the first place, so it's not anti-fun. Neither are his birds, since you can run from the leash distance if you want. Jax's old Counterstrike was kind of anti-fun, since you'd see the buff on him and be like "oh, well he's going to jump me from a huge distance and stun me, nothing I can do about it except take it". I don't think Sejuani's Ult or Passive are anti fun (since you can dodge the ult and run before she gets to you with her passive), but the idea of "oh, well she just jumped on me from the bush/over a wall and I couldn't possibly dodge and now she permafrosts me and I can't do shit about it" is pretty anti-fun. I could be wrong, haven't played against her enough to say more, but that's my initial impression. You're missing the point of anti-fun in terms of crowd control completely. Getting stunned or slowed sucks, but it feels great for the other player (and is really the only way people ever die) so it's "anti-fun" are hugely outweighed by the fun factor of the person doing it. Anti-fun cc is like in earlier versions of dota when you could play against troll berserker with a cranium basher and he could literally perm-astun you to death. You can't do shit about that, but against Sejulani you can use cleanse or mercury treads to mitigate the slow. Tryn's ult is not anti-fun either. The fact that you can cc him while he's ulted means you have a way to react to what's going on. You personally don't find it fun to be forced to crowd control a single player, but that doesn't mean you're not having fun crowd controlling someone. You are annoyed because your decision making process has to weigh in the fact that trynd can't be killed by damage temporarily. Choosing between ccing tryn and ccing the escaping mage is a decision you can still make, which is significantly different than you can't cc tryn and he continues to kill you and you can try to cc the escaping mage. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
on the subject of graves he also said abilities which serve 2 distinct purposes are anti fun, because you arent ever sure what the optimal use is Abilities like those are actually more fun, do I give mana on soraka, or do I harass. Do I give mana on soraka, or do I save the silence for when I need it, instead of just being a mana bot. Do I jump in and do damage, or do I save it to get out if I need to? Etc etc, I don't see having a choice being anti fun. Unless an ability can do 5 things and it's impossible to choose. Regarding trynd ult, just play garen or ap morde, no choice to be made:p Anti-fun is the negative experience your opponents feel when you do something that prevents them from 'playing their game' or doing activities they consider fun Like those asshole junglers that perma camp a lane and make it impossible for you to do anything other than hug your turret. That shit can be so frustrating. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:22 NeoIllusions wrote: Again, it's not a blanket statement. Doing Grave's EQ takes a risk assessment. Your trade greater damage for the possibility of getting caught and taking additional damage that isn't equal to a face on Buckshot. i know its not a blanket statement i just find it odd that such a new champion seems to fall into so many "anti fun" categories. i have no problem with graves but it sounds as if by their own standards they do | ||
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Ryalnos
United States1946 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:16 turdburgler wrote: on the subject of graves he also said abilities which serve 2 distinct purposes are anti fun, because you arent ever sure what the optimal use is, why does graves's movement ability also buff he dps. "do i use it to engage? do i save it for the dps? do i need to save it for a peel?" his comments on false choice WHY DOES LEE SIN HAVE AN AP SHIELD?! you never want to build ap on him but it gives bad players the idea that it might be good, its a false choice. if they dont want abilities to scale just dont let them scale, dont make them scale with a stat you dont want. so its either a false choice, or its a melee ability, in his own words both are anti fun. It is sure as heck not a false choice if you bothered to read that post at all. You can use buckshot perfectly normally from a distance and its strength is fine from that distance - Zileas specifically comments that abilities that have an inherent 'choice' and possible room for creativity but have an obvious basic use are fine. There is a reasonable risk/reward for using it from close range, it is not 'clearly always better/worse' to use it from afar. If you play Graves you should generally NOT feel like you're confused about how you should use the ability. Graves may be an AD carry, but I daresay putting a melee-range benefit on one of his abilities is not that weird, given how his passive makes him tankier than the typical ranged AD (not to mention he can escape/disrupt attackers with E and W making him a little safer in melee range). What he is talking about is abilities that do not synergize with the rest of the kit (and thus would tend to be never used or awkwardly used). | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:24 Shiv. wrote: Why can't you CC him under the tower, spin away so he takes free hits, flash or ghost from the manaburn, too? Honestly asking because I'm really trying to understand the whole concept. DH Mana Burn is a walk up, poke, run away. He can do that and not miss any last hits. If Skarner tries to do the same, he has to chase you own, ceding CS to haras. Champion with Mana Burn poke has greater options and player playing against MB has far fewer. Things could be more comparable if the MB was melee range and did small amounts instead of an instant chunk. But even so, being slowed, you can still react. Being mana burned slowly eliminates your choices because you're losing mana and can't even react with spells after a while. There's a greater sense of helplessness when you can do nothing left but auto attack, compared to a slow. Edit: Feels a lot worse to be in a fight and not being able to cast spells when you haven't been spamming at all. Compared to a near melee range slow where you have to get caught in (overextending for example). You can take blame for one of these situations, the other one is more of "fk this champion". | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Removing choice is not fun. Chain CC (like Troll Berserker) is unfun because, well, you have no choice. It's also unfun to be limited to one choice. I suppose I'm thinking more binary choices than "anti-fun", though I consider making things binary unfun as well. Xin is unfun to me because your only choices in pretty much all situations are "run in, hit all buttons and kill everything" or "run in, hit all buttons and die instantly". While binary decision making doesn't fall under the purview of this "anti-fun" paradigm, it still sucks from a design perspective. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
That said, choice is not the only factor. Game design is not black and white. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On January 18 2012 02:29 turdburgler wrote: i know its not a blanket statement i just find it odd that such a new champion seems to fall into so many "anti fun" categories. i have no problem with graves but it sounds as if by their own standards they do Graves dash isn't really giving a ranged champion a melee skill. Graves' Q benefits more at close range but it's at a cost. A better example of what Zileas is going for is giving Malphite's Ground Pound as a ranged skill on an AD. That would be mindboggling broken at bottom lane. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
i actually like graves from the design side of thing, i think its interesting to have an ad that functions well at closer range, seperating the good graves from the great graves... ;p keeping alive while doing tons of dmg. its just his ult doesnt fit that design so imo they werent shooting for revolution in ad carry design, it just sorta happened. | ||
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