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On January 08 2012 08:22 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 08:10 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Aight yo, just bought Viktor. Gonna take advantage of his sleeper op status, and then when they buff him I'll be unstoppable. Hes kinda trash.
You shut your mouth when you talk to me.
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United States13132 Posts
On January 08 2012 08:45 Noocta wrote:
I hope i'm reading it wrong and people ain't starting think PD first is a good item.
Because if it's the case, i lose all faith in this game.
I said I go PD first on Kog'Maw and people decided it'd be a good idea to compare PD and IE damage. Sorry about that ^_^
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On January 08 2012 08:42 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 08:36 TheYango wrote:On January 08 2012 08:34 starfries wrote:On January 08 2012 08:22 Shikyo wrote:
Most of the time you can't stand still and right click someone though, PD gives you much better animation canceling and kiting. I still wouldn't rush it first on most champions but it's not so black-and-white, as IE gives damage and nothing more whereas PD gives far more utility with movespeed along with better animation canceling.
LOL You see that Cruzerthebruzer vs TOO and Reginald? =D Still think Skarner is fine? ;D What... ? You can animation cancel with IE just as well as with PD. PD gives you better kiting because it gives you movespeed. IE is still better because it when you get those single autos off on a high priority target they're more relevant. I don't even know why we're talking about rushing PD anyways, it's so bad. A better comparison would be BT+Zeal. Higher Aspd = shorter attack animation = easier to kite. I don't think it's as significant as Shikyo is making it out to be, but to say you can do it "just as well" with IE isn't correct either. Aspd will make the wind-up animation faster, and you cancel the recovery portion, but you have to do it more often. I think it evens out unless you don't autoattack as fast as your attack speed allows.
Well I'm not sure if you've tested it, but with only an IE your animation canceling is horrendous and you really can't attack properly while kiting, whereas if you have PD and their AD carry is chasing you, you can keep firing while still getting away.
going PD also allows you to always kill the lane opponent off if an advantageous situation arrives, and to get away when it arrives for them.
Of course IE is still usually better but my point isn't arguing that you should go PD instead of IE by default, but that you should recognize it as a viable option when the situation calls for it.
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On January 08 2012 08:44 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 08:26 Two_DoWn wrote:
Naw, its pretty much black and white. At the point in the game where you get your IE the laning phase will be ending because you FORCE it to end. IE powers up an ad carry that much. If you give me a carry with an IE at that point in the game against a carry with a PD, I can guarantee you that the team with the carry who has an IE will win that teamfight. It definitely isn't black and white. There are plenty of times where I build a BT over an IE with the intent that it will give me a much easier and stronger mid game. Lifesteal is basically impossible to value without putting it into game context, and if I think I'm going to get dived I tend to build BT > IE 100% of the time since it'll allow me to live and do even more damage. BT can also allow you to completely zone somebody from bottom lane farming so it can be useful if you're able to set something like that up (aka you got really ahead at the start). It's far easier to build on that advantage when you're topped off 100% of the time and can freely push, zone, and threaten the enemy.
Cool, only we werent talking about IE vs other BF items, we were talking about IE vs PD.
IE vs PD is always black and white.
IE vs other BF items is dealers choice (IE is safer, BT is riskier (cuz dying REALLY hurts with a BT and will put you behind someone who went IE)).
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On January 08 2012 08:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 08:45 Noocta wrote:
I hope i'm reading it wrong and people ain't starting think PD first is a good item.
Because if it's the case, i lose all faith in this game. I said I go PD first on Kog'Maw and people decided it'd be a good idea to compare PD and IE damage. Sorry about that ^_^
Mmm I'm pretty sure it started from TRM going PD first on Corki solo top followed by LW. I maintained TRM's Corki build was retarded. Some people said it was good/okay and now this discussion.
PD first is godawful on most AD carries. Even on Vayne or Kog where they scale really well with attack speed, I'd still much rather have BT before a completed PD. The only champ in the game I can imagine who PD first could be core is tryndamere, but that's because his Q and passive gives him tons of offensive stats that PD can amplify.
@Shikyo: If you can't kite properly with IE imo you're doing it wrong :\
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Bloodthirster + Dagger + Glove is just about the same gold as Infinity Edge, which of those does more?
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On January 08 2012 08:50 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 08:44 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:26 Two_DoWn wrote:
Naw, its pretty much black and white. At the point in the game where you get your IE the laning phase will be ending because you FORCE it to end. IE powers up an ad carry that much. If you give me a carry with an IE at that point in the game against a carry with a PD, I can guarantee you that the team with the carry who has an IE will win that teamfight. It definitely isn't black and white. There are plenty of times where I build a BT over an IE with the intent that it will give me a much easier and stronger mid game. Lifesteal is basically impossible to value without putting it into game context, and if I think I'm going to get dived I tend to build BT > IE 100% of the time since it'll allow me to live and do even more damage. BT can also allow you to completely zone somebody from bottom lane farming so it can be useful if you're able to set something like that up (aka you got really ahead at the start). It's far easier to build on that advantage when you're topped off 100% of the time and can freely push, zone, and threaten the enemy. Cool, only we werent talking about IE vs other BF items, we were talking about IE vs PD. IE vs PD is always black and white. IE vs other BF items is dealers choice (IE is safer, BT is riskier (cuz dying REALLY hurts with a BT and will put you behind someone who went IE)).
It was actually IE vs other items, PD's an example. Another I could use it triforce. I'm not sure what right you have to decide what we were or weren't talking about and how that means that what he said is irrelevant?
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On January 08 2012 08:55 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 08:50 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 08 2012 08:44 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:26 Two_DoWn wrote:
Naw, its pretty much black and white. At the point in the game where you get your IE the laning phase will be ending because you FORCE it to end. IE powers up an ad carry that much. If you give me a carry with an IE at that point in the game against a carry with a PD, I can guarantee you that the team with the carry who has an IE will win that teamfight. It definitely isn't black and white. There are plenty of times where I build a BT over an IE with the intent that it will give me a much easier and stronger mid game. Lifesteal is basically impossible to value without putting it into game context, and if I think I'm going to get dived I tend to build BT > IE 100% of the time since it'll allow me to live and do even more damage. BT can also allow you to completely zone somebody from bottom lane farming so it can be useful if you're able to set something like that up (aka you got really ahead at the start). It's far easier to build on that advantage when you're topped off 100% of the time and can freely push, zone, and threaten the enemy. Cool, only we werent talking about IE vs other BF items, we were talking about IE vs PD. IE vs PD is always black and white. IE vs other BF items is dealers choice (IE is safer, BT is riskier (cuz dying REALLY hurts with a BT and will put you behind someone who went IE)). It was actually IE vs other items, PD's an example. Another I could use it triforce. I'm not sure what right you have to decide what we were or weren't talking about and how that means that what he said is irrelevant?
I'm pretty darn sure the discussion started out discussing the merits of PD as first item. It then branched out into IE v. PD and IE v. BT.
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On January 08 2012 08:55 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 08:50 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 08 2012 08:44 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:26 Two_DoWn wrote:
Naw, its pretty much black and white. At the point in the game where you get your IE the laning phase will be ending because you FORCE it to end. IE powers up an ad carry that much. If you give me a carry with an IE at that point in the game against a carry with a PD, I can guarantee you that the team with the carry who has an IE will win that teamfight. It definitely isn't black and white. There are plenty of times where I build a BT over an IE with the intent that it will give me a much easier and stronger mid game. Lifesteal is basically impossible to value without putting it into game context, and if I think I'm going to get dived I tend to build BT > IE 100% of the time since it'll allow me to live and do even more damage. BT can also allow you to completely zone somebody from bottom lane farming so it can be useful if you're able to set something like that up (aka you got really ahead at the start). It's far easier to build on that advantage when you're topped off 100% of the time and can freely push, zone, and threaten the enemy. Cool, only we werent talking about IE vs other BF items, we were talking about IE vs PD. IE vs PD is always black and white. IE vs other BF items is dealers choice (IE is safer, BT is riskier (cuz dying REALLY hurts with a BT and will put you behind someone who went IE)). It was actually IE vs other items, PD's an example. Another I could use it triforce. I'm not sure what right you have to decide what we were or weren't talking about and how that means that what he said is irrelevant?
Well, given the fact that EVERY FUCKING POST I AND EVERYONE ELSE MADE compared an IE rush to a PD rush, then ya, I would say that the discussion centered around whether a PD rush was any good compared to a IE rush.
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On January 08 2012 08:58 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 08:55 Shikyo wrote:On January 08 2012 08:50 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 08 2012 08:44 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:26 Two_DoWn wrote:
Naw, its pretty much black and white. At the point in the game where you get your IE the laning phase will be ending because you FORCE it to end. IE powers up an ad carry that much. If you give me a carry with an IE at that point in the game against a carry with a PD, I can guarantee you that the team with the carry who has an IE will win that teamfight. It definitely isn't black and white. There are plenty of times where I build a BT over an IE with the intent that it will give me a much easier and stronger mid game. Lifesteal is basically impossible to value without putting it into game context, and if I think I'm going to get dived I tend to build BT > IE 100% of the time since it'll allow me to live and do even more damage. BT can also allow you to completely zone somebody from bottom lane farming so it can be useful if you're able to set something like that up (aka you got really ahead at the start). It's far easier to build on that advantage when you're topped off 100% of the time and can freely push, zone, and threaten the enemy. Cool, only we werent talking about IE vs other BF items, we were talking about IE vs PD. IE vs PD is always black and white. IE vs other BF items is dealers choice (IE is safer, BT is riskier (cuz dying REALLY hurts with a BT and will put you behind someone who went IE)). It was actually IE vs other items, PD's an example. Another I could use it triforce. I'm not sure what right you have to decide what we were or weren't talking about and how that means that what he said is irrelevant? I'm pretty darn sure the discussion started out discussing the merits of PD as first item. It then branched out into IE v. PD and IE v. BT.
The debate started because therainman rushed PD first in a scrim against m5 as corki.
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On January 08 2012 08:50 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 08:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:45 Noocta wrote:
I hope i'm reading it wrong and people ain't starting think PD first is a good item.
Because if it's the case, i lose all faith in this game. I said I go PD first on Kog'Maw and people decided it'd be a good idea to compare PD and IE damage. Sorry about that ^_^ Mmm I'm pretty sure it started from TRM going PD first on Corki solo top followed by LW. I maintained TRM's Corki build was retarded. Some people said it was good/okay and now this discussion. PD first is godawful on most AD carries. Even on Vayne or Kog where they scale really well with attack speed, I'd still much rather have BT before a completed PD. The only champ in the game I can imagine who PD first could be core is tryndamere, but that's because his Q and passive gives him tons of offensive stats that PD can amplify. @Shikyo: If you can't kite properly with IE imo you're doing it wrong :\
Nah it's actually just not possible to kite properly with IE o_o I'm not doing anything wrong
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Honestly... after this:
On January 08 2012 07:30 tobi9999 wrote:
lol M5 running boots of swiftness, zeal before BF sword Ashe
..and the argument on the last pages..
...has anyone here done the math on e.g.
a) BF -> PD -> IE
b) zeal -> BF -> PD -> IE
c) PD -> BF -> IE
d) BF -> IE -> PD
Obviously d) is what most people (me included) regard as standard, c) is imo sounding weird to me but I can see it could make sense. a) and b) however are the equivalent of "ima get a negatron, chainmail and giants belt, then I'll finish the actual big items".
Dno, at a first glance it makes sense to me. I guess ima do some mathcraft unless Yango, the god of mathcraft, beats me to it.
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On January 08 2012 09:00 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 08:50 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:45 Noocta wrote:
I hope i'm reading it wrong and people ain't starting think PD first is a good item.
Because if it's the case, i lose all faith in this game. I said I go PD first on Kog'Maw and people decided it'd be a good idea to compare PD and IE damage. Sorry about that ^_^ Mmm I'm pretty sure it started from TRM going PD first on Corki solo top followed by LW. I maintained TRM's Corki build was retarded. Some people said it was good/okay and now this discussion. PD first is godawful on most AD carries. Even on Vayne or Kog where they scale really well with attack speed, I'd still much rather have BT before a completed PD. The only champ in the game I can imagine who PD first could be core is tryndamere, but that's because his Q and passive gives him tons of offensive stats that PD can amplify. @Shikyo: If you can't kite properly with IE imo you're doing it wrong :\ Nah it's actually just not possible to kite properly with IE o_o I'm not doing anything wrong
AAANNNND thats my cue to stop arguing with you.
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On January 08 2012 09:03 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:00 Shikyo wrote:On January 08 2012 08:50 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:45 Noocta wrote:
I hope i'm reading it wrong and people ain't starting think PD first is a good item.
Because if it's the case, i lose all faith in this game. I said I go PD first on Kog'Maw and people decided it'd be a good idea to compare PD and IE damage. Sorry about that ^_^ Mmm I'm pretty sure it started from TRM going PD first on Corki solo top followed by LW. I maintained TRM's Corki build was retarded. Some people said it was good/okay and now this discussion. PD first is godawful on most AD carries. Even on Vayne or Kog where they scale really well with attack speed, I'd still much rather have BT before a completed PD. The only champ in the game I can imagine who PD first could be core is tryndamere, but that's because his Q and passive gives him tons of offensive stats that PD can amplify. @Shikyo: If you can't kite properly with IE imo you're doing it wrong :\ Nah it's actually just not possible to kite properly with IE o_o I'm not doing anything wrong AAANNNND thats my cue to stop arguing with you.
Kite properly =/= move back after every attack and after 2 repetitions they are melee with you
but yeah this thread argued against garen Q refreshing autoattack timer as well so I guess people just don't know mechanics of the game too well
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On January 08 2012 09:03 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:00 Shikyo wrote:On January 08 2012 08:50 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:45 Noocta wrote:
I hope i'm reading it wrong and people ain't starting think PD first is a good item.
Because if it's the case, i lose all faith in this game. I said I go PD first on Kog'Maw and people decided it'd be a good idea to compare PD and IE damage. Sorry about that ^_^ Mmm I'm pretty sure it started from TRM going PD first on Corki solo top followed by LW. I maintained TRM's Corki build was retarded. Some people said it was good/okay and now this discussion. PD first is godawful on most AD carries. Even on Vayne or Kog where they scale really well with attack speed, I'd still much rather have BT before a completed PD. The only champ in the game I can imagine who PD first could be core is tryndamere, but that's because his Q and passive gives him tons of offensive stats that PD can amplify. @Shikyo: If you can't kite properly with IE imo you're doing it wrong :\ Nah it's actually just not possible to kite properly with IE o_o I'm not doing anything wrong AAANNNND thats my cue to stop arguing with you.
I nominate this for best post of 2012.
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On January 08 2012 09:00 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 08:50 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:45 Noocta wrote:
I hope i'm reading it wrong and people ain't starting think PD first is a good item.
Because if it's the case, i lose all faith in this game. I said I go PD first on Kog'Maw and people decided it'd be a good idea to compare PD and IE damage. Sorry about that ^_^ Mmm I'm pretty sure it started from TRM going PD first on Corki solo top followed by LW. I maintained TRM's Corki build was retarded. Some people said it was good/okay and now this discussion. PD first is godawful on most AD carries. Even on Vayne or Kog where they scale really well with attack speed, I'd still much rather have BT before a completed PD. The only champ in the game I can imagine who PD first could be core is tryndamere, but that's because his Q and passive gives him tons of offensive stats that PD can amplify. @Shikyo: If you can't kite properly with IE imo you're doing it wrong :\ Nah it's actually just not possible to kite properly with IE o_o I'm not doing anything wrong
Notsureifserious.jpg
IE is outright better than PD + w/e you want to add to give it equal gold value. As an AD carry you NEED damage. You keep yourself alive by proper positioning, your summoners, and a bit of peel from your team. Getting PD FIRST so "you can kite better" just means your positioning is horrendous. You need damage to be a threat. Otherwise your farm is simply wasted. PD doesn't give you damage, it amplifies it. If you have none to begin with you're going to still do no damage. If you're the AD carry on your team and you're doing no damage "but you're alive!" you're more useless than an ad carry that did a ton of damage but died.
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On January 08 2012 09:01 r.Evo wrote:Honestly... after this: Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:30 tobi9999 wrote:
lol M5 running boots of swiftness, zeal before BF sword Ashe
..and the argument on the last pages.. ...has anyone here done the math on e.g. a) BF -> PD -> IE b) zeal -> BF -> PD -> IE c) PD -> BF -> IE d) BF -> IE -> PD Obviously d) is what most people (me included) regard as standard, c) is imo sounding weird to me but I can see it could make sense. a) and b) however are the equivalent of "ima get a negatron, chainmail and giants belt, then I'll finish the actual big items". Dno, at a first glance it makes sense to me. I guess ima do some mathcraft unless Yango, the god of mathcraft, beats me to it.
why do people buy dorans at all? "this item doesnt build into anything, but i have enough money for it now and it will help me win my lane"
why do people suddenly dump this logic after the 4 minute mark?
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My main AD carry is Tristana and I always get Infinity Edge as first item. It makes farming much easier and since Tristana really shines in the super late game with a full build I want to make sure I get that full build as quickly as possible.
I don't know how all the AD carries work, but with Trist I generally get the kills in the early and late game. Mid game is all about farming for me and in that regard Infinity Edge is my best bet. Plus, when I start PD first I find that I do absolutely no damage, and when Trist already has an AS steroid starting with attack speed with no damage first just feels silly.
Despite that, if people feel like they do better with PD in mid game then they should do it. I used to spend a lot of time theorycrafting but then I realized what matters is what wins me games.
When people play Phoenix Udyr for instance, they generally never touch Tiger stance until Phoenix Turtle and Bear are maxed. I put 1 point in Tiger at level 6 because I feel it helps me gank better and the attack speed helps a lot when I immediately switch to Phoenix. People can say I'm playing Udyr wrong but I win games so... I dunno?
I think it's okay to theorycraft but arguing about it seems a little silly to me because it all comes down to personal preference and playstyle and what works for an individual player.
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Hm. Assuming 5225gold you can get:
a) Serkers, Dblade, IE = +25% AS, +90 AD, +25% crit chance, crits +50% dmg., 3% lifesteal.
b) Serkers, Dblade, BF, zeal, vampscepter, dagger. = +60% AS, +55 AD, +10% crit. +15% lifesteal, +8% movement speed
c) Serkers, Dblade, Pickaxe + PD = +80% AS, +35AD, +30% crit, +3% lifesteal +15% movement speed
Now the question is, which of those would you want to have for your first big teamfight? =P
Edit:
b) = you're 2180g from IE
c) = you're 2855 from IE
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On January 08 2012 09:16 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:00 Shikyo wrote:On January 08 2012 08:50 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:45 Noocta wrote:
I hope i'm reading it wrong and people ain't starting think PD first is a good item.
Because if it's the case, i lose all faith in this game. I said I go PD first on Kog'Maw and people decided it'd be a good idea to compare PD and IE damage. Sorry about that ^_^ Mmm I'm pretty sure it started from TRM going PD first on Corki solo top followed by LW. I maintained TRM's Corki build was retarded. Some people said it was good/okay and now this discussion. PD first is godawful on most AD carries. Even on Vayne or Kog where they scale really well with attack speed, I'd still much rather have BT before a completed PD. The only champ in the game I can imagine who PD first could be core is tryndamere, but that's because his Q and passive gives him tons of offensive stats that PD can amplify. @Shikyo: If you can't kite properly with IE imo you're doing it wrong :\ Nah it's actually just not possible to kite properly with IE o_o I'm not doing anything wrong Notsureifserious.jpg IE is outright better than PD + w/e you want to add to give it equal gold value. As an AD carry you NEED damage. You keep yourself alive by proper positioning, your summoners, and a bit of peel from your team. Getting PD FIRST so "you can kite better" just means your positioning is horrendous. You need damage to be a threat. Otherwise your farm is simply wasted. PD doesn't give you damage, it amplifies it. If you have none to begin with you're going to still do no damage. If you're the AD carry on your team and you're doing no damage "but you're alive!" you're more useless than an ad carry that did a ton of damage but died.
BTW if you didn't know this I go IE first nearly every time unless playing vayne, all I'm saying is that it should be considered as an option.
Also I could say, some progamers like to actually make PD first so you guys are obviously better players, right? This seems like the TL general discussion thread logic so let's use it.
On January 08 2012 09:09 LoCicero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:03 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 08 2012 09:00 Shikyo wrote:On January 08 2012 08:50 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:45 Noocta wrote:
I hope i'm reading it wrong and people ain't starting think PD first is a good item.
Because if it's the case, i lose all faith in this game. I said I go PD first on Kog'Maw and people decided it'd be a good idea to compare PD and IE damage. Sorry about that ^_^ Mmm I'm pretty sure it started from TRM going PD first on Corki solo top followed by LW. I maintained TRM's Corki build was retarded. Some people said it was good/okay and now this discussion. PD first is godawful on most AD carries. Even on Vayne or Kog where they scale really well with attack speed, I'd still much rather have BT before a completed PD. The only champ in the game I can imagine who PD first could be core is tryndamere, but that's because his Q and passive gives him tons of offensive stats that PD can amplify. @Shikyo: If you can't kite properly with IE imo you're doing it wrong :\ Nah it's actually just not possible to kite properly with IE o_o I'm not doing anything wrong AAANNNND thats my cue to stop arguing with you. I nominate this for best post of 2012.
Can you stop repeatedly sneaking insults at me, please?
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EPT
