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On January 08 2012 09:17 r.Evo wrote:
Hm. Assuming 5225gold you can get:
a) Serkers, Dblade, IE = +25% AS, +90 AD, +25% crit chance, crits +50% dmg., 3% lifesteal.
b) Serkers, Dblade, BF, zeal, vampscepter, dagger. = +60% AS, +55 AD, +10% crit. +15%lifesteal, +8% movement speed
c) Serkers, Dblade, Pickaxe + PD = +80% AS, +35AD, +30% crit, +15% movement speed
Now the question is, which of those would you want to have for your first big teamfight? =P
now heres a realistic example ;p you are playing x champ, y lane oponent will poke you out without decent life steal. you have to b at like roughly 1600 gold. do you get a bf sword and continue to leave lane early or be zoned out before you cant sustain yourself, or do you get a zeal and a scepter to enable to you last hit and sustain a ton better?
blindly IE first seems like a ridiculous over simplification of the game
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5225 gold is such an inrealistic situation though, what if you first had to back early, buying the cloak of agility, and as you B for a second time you have 2000 gold.
Do you finish the PD or buy a BF Sword and save 350 gold? There's not going to be completely ideal situations where you perfectly afford items or where you're going to be able to always avoid banking money.
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You get dblade(s) boots and a scepter.
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So you rather stack dblades and delay your IE by forever? Not sure how I feel about that though some people still like doing it.
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On January 08 2012 09:01 r.Evo wrote:Honestly... after this: Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:30 tobi9999 wrote:
lol M5 running boots of swiftness, zeal before BF sword Ashe
..and the argument on the last pages.. ...has anyone here done the math on e.g. a) BF -> PD -> IE b) zeal -> BF -> PD -> IE c) PD -> BF -> IE d) BF -> IE -> PD Obviously d) is what most people (me included) regard as standard, c) is imo sounding weird to me but I can see it could make sense. a) and b) however are the equivalent of "ima get a negatron, chainmail and giants belt, then I'll finish the actual big items". Dno, at a first glance it makes sense to me. I guess ima do some mathcraft unless Yango, the god of mathcraft, beats me to it.
I've done complete spreadsheets for specific champs. The math doesn't tell you anything that you wouldn't already guess or know from trying it in game yourself. PD first is not great DPS wise and of the AD items is the worst to rush for pure DPS if you have no AD steriods (or have AS steroids/strong AD scaling abilities). AD builds won't hit a high efficiency point until IE is built but IE by itself only begins to engage carry DPS mode (not counting any steroids). BT really needs its stacks to be efficient, BC falls off against higher armor ratings but can work OK into late game, becoming a replacement for the second PD.
Also Vayne can build whatever she wants because she does more damage than anyone else by a good deal at all stages of the game.
IDK I went to all the work of doing it and just found out that, more or less, IE->PD->LW is just the best way to go. If anything from the spreadsheets it's surprising that people go BT at all. In the end experience > math here.
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builds aren't important as we think they are. I'd argue that they have a huge impact on lane phase, but significantly less in teamfights. Like, some champions are just going to hit like trucks still as long as their build isn't COMPLETELY COMPLETELY retarded.
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On January 08 2012 09:26 Shikyo wrote:
So you rather stack dblades and delay your IE by forever? Not sure how I feel about that though some people still like doing it.
"By forever" when you're being poked out of lane because you're too weak to win in trades. That's some really piss poor logic.
If you are weak in trades, you get dblades so you can win or go even. You sit on the scepter because its a lot of free sustain, but it will only help you a little during actual trades. If you try to ignore getting dblades/scepter and rush straight for IE when you're already losing trades then you're going to end up getting zoned and losing on CS. I feel I have to point this out since you aren't grasping it on your own: your IE will be delayed by as much (or more) from rushing it and getting zoned than by getting solid early/midgame items and being able to hold your own in lane.
DBlades are generally also the only source of HP for AD carries, who have some of the lowest base HP pools in the game to begin with. They are incredibly useful to have going into the midgame.
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On January 08 2012 09:19 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:17 r.Evo wrote:
Hm. Assuming 5225gold you can get:
a) Serkers, Dblade, IE = +25% AS, +90 AD, +25% crit chance, crits +50% dmg., 3% lifesteal.
b) Serkers, Dblade, BF, zeal, vampscepter, dagger. = +60% AS, +55 AD, +10% crit. +15%lifesteal, +8% movement speed
c) Serkers, Dblade, Pickaxe + PD = +80% AS, +35AD, +30% crit, +15% movement speed
Now the question is, which of those would you want to have for your first big teamfight? =P now heres a realistic example ;p you are playing x champ, y lane oponent will poke you out without decent life steal. you have to b at like roughly 1600 gold. do you get a bf sword and continue to leave lane early or be zoned out before you cant sustain yourself, or do you get a zeal and a scepter to enable to you last hit and sustain a ton better? blindly IE first seems like a ridiculous over simplification of the game
Now this is going somewhere. Honestly, despite me enjoying to dump on Shikyo from time to time myself, I find it pretty insulting and stupid that people throw random "I say do this" or "I say do that" at each other without anyone providing solid examples.
e.g. I find the "Ima get a bit of everything"-option (b) pretty damn realistic. It gives some stuff of everything, awesum. Now I'm like ~2k from the first big multiplier and ~1600 from the next.
Not sure how it will work in an actual game, but I think this scales way better unless you're in a position to finish IE/zeal/vamp scepter at once.
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On January 08 2012 06:22 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 05:52 clickrush wrote:On January 08 2012 05:35 UniversalSnip wrote:On January 08 2012 00:43 phyvo wrote:
how the crap did WotA get so OP anyways? all the answers you are getting are completely wrong. Basically the item used to be super bad. At the time revolver gave 15% spellvamp (before that it gave 10%) and was pretty much worthless, like it is now. Both items that built out of it, gunblade and wota, were costed with the assumption that revolver had the correct gold per stat ratio. When they buffed revolver up to 20%, they also buffed wota and gunblade to be in line with that. The new revolver turned out to be completely broken so they nerfed it back, then gunblade turned out to be completely broken so they did about the same with that, now there's rumbling about wota... Do you see a pattern? I aggree when your saying that alot of considerations tend to be psychological (a general moba thing). In this case its mb also sth different. WotA has a pretty good ap/gold ratio which ppl ignored for a time. The aura effect is mostly considered as bad for soloq even if the item itself is costeffective and you need the stats. Aegis is another prime example. Generally I would say most ppl don't do the math at all. For example tiamat has one of the best AD/gold ratios. If you really just need quick and cheap AD and can make use of the regen and farmspeed it provides then you should buy it. Despite that fact you rarely see this item. Another problem is that ppl often don't consider buying a bunch of small-middle sized items because they 'clump up the inventory' and you 'delay the important stuff' despite their costeffectiveness, completely ignoring the fact that 99% of the games are decided way (WAY) before you have 5 major 3k+items. The same goes for consumables. Wether those are wards, buffs or pots: Consumables in LoL cost nothing and provide insane stats/utility. You should allways fill your inventory space with some of them. Popping a healing potion during a fight easily turns the tide. Having a great bunch more stats during 4minutes easily turns the tide. The <250g investment turns into dragons/kills/turrets and freefarm so easily. Haha I say you, if I only had decent decision making and better nerves I would be the best player out there  riot definitely has way better sense of champion balance than I think everyone on this forum... but they really don't seem to know what is up with their items at all. Ever since I saw wu thuong's spreadsheet it's been pretty simple picking out the next fotm item. You just go down the list and look at - Cost efficiency. Not exclusively significant but sometimes you can make the call just based on that number. - Resource generation. For example lifesteal and gold generation are both dangerous because they're prone to abuse. Mana on the other hand doesn't necessarily generate any real resource advantage. Infinite mana ezreal spamming Q every time it's up isn't that much better than ezreal just using Q when it's useful. On the other hand put a chalice on corki and you get an abusive pusher. So it's just down to whether the combination of stats generates continually greater resource advantage. - Ties into some other abusive mechanic. For example free spells with kennen + spellvamp. Kennen is fine without wota around and wota would be a lot less obviously stupid without heroes like kennen around, you put them together and the results are unfair. I think they don't have anyone on their staff who is like... a former professional tcg player or something. They don't seem to see engines clearly, for example when they look at nasus they obsess over his Q and ignore his passive.
in the other hand kennen is a very predictable champion that has his specific counters. I can agree with alot of the things you say. Often in these discussions I wished riot would tone down the update (hero introductions and balance changes) speed a bunch and let the game breathe a bit more, so we could actually figure out stuff better as a community which would make riots statistics much more reliable. (btw what is tcg? is that an american thing? never heard of it)
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kennen may be predictable but the ability of team mates to go full retard, is not :D
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On January 08 2012 09:27 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:01 r.Evo wrote:Honestly... after this: On January 08 2012 07:30 tobi9999 wrote:
lol M5 running boots of swiftness, zeal before BF sword Ashe
..and the argument on the last pages.. ...has anyone here done the math on e.g. a) BF -> PD -> IE b) zeal -> BF -> PD -> IE c) PD -> BF -> IE d) BF -> IE -> PD Obviously d) is what most people (me included) regard as standard, c) is imo sounding weird to me but I can see it could make sense. a) and b) however are the equivalent of "ima get a negatron, chainmail and giants belt, then I'll finish the actual big items". Dno, at a first glance it makes sense to me. I guess ima do some mathcraft unless Yango, the god of mathcraft, beats me to it. I've done complete spreadsheets for specific champs. The math doesn't tell you anything that you wouldn't already guess or know from trying it in game yourself. PD first is not great DPS wise and of the AD items is the worst to rush for pure DPS if you have no AD steriods (or have AS steroids/strong AD scaling abilities). AD builds won't hit a high efficiency point until IE is built but IE by itself only begins to engage carry DPS mode (not counting any steroids). BT really needs its stacks to be efficient, BC falls off against higher armor ratings but can work OK into late game, becoming a replacement for the second PD. Also Vayne can build whatever she wants because she does more damage than anyone else by a good deal at all stages of the game. IDK I went to all the work of doing it and just found out that, more or less, IE->PD->LW is just the best way to go. If anything from the spreadsheets it's surprising that people go BT at all. In the end experience > math here.
Waitwut. Are you trying to say that from your spreadsheets IE rush isn't THAT awesome for dps compared to if you'd go BF+zeal? Cause that would be an argument in favor of "a bit of everything quickly"-builds imo.
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On January 08 2012 09:19 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:17 r.Evo wrote:
Hm. Assuming 5225gold you can get:
a) Serkers, Dblade, IE = +25% AS, +90 AD, +25% crit chance, crits +50% dmg., 3% lifesteal.
b) Serkers, Dblade, BF, zeal, vampscepter, dagger. = +60% AS, +55 AD, +10% crit. +15%lifesteal, +8% movement speed
c) Serkers, Dblade, Pickaxe + PD = +80% AS, +35AD, +30% crit, +15% movement speed
Now the question is, which of those would you want to have for your first big teamfight? =P now heres a realistic example ;p you are playing x champ, y lane oponent will poke you out without decent life steal. you have to b at like roughly 1600 gold. do you get a bf sword and continue to leave lane early or be zoned out before you cant sustain yourself, or do you get a zeal and a scepter to enable to you last hit and sustain a ton better? blindly IE first seems like a ridiculous over simplification of the game
I agree with your idea of oversimplification, but in your instance if I had 1600 gold I would definitely get the BF Sword especially if I had a sustain support like Soraka.
If I have a good support then I really shouldn't have to worry about sustain. I would actually last hit a LOT better with a bonus 45 attack damage than with extra attack speed/movespeed/crit.
Generally I don't B unless I HAVE to OR I can afford the BF Sword. And if I B before I can afford BFS then I purchase Doran's for extra sustain while still giving just a slight attack bonus.
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On January 08 2012 09:33 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:27 phyvo wrote:On January 08 2012 09:01 r.Evo wrote:Honestly... after this: On January 08 2012 07:30 tobi9999 wrote:
lol M5 running boots of swiftness, zeal before BF sword Ashe
..and the argument on the last pages.. ...has anyone here done the math on e.g. a) BF -> PD -> IE b) zeal -> BF -> PD -> IE c) PD -> BF -> IE d) BF -> IE -> PD Obviously d) is what most people (me included) regard as standard, c) is imo sounding weird to me but I can see it could make sense. a) and b) however are the equivalent of "ima get a negatron, chainmail and giants belt, then I'll finish the actual big items". Dno, at a first glance it makes sense to me. I guess ima do some mathcraft unless Yango, the god of mathcraft, beats me to it. I've done complete spreadsheets for specific champs. The math doesn't tell you anything that you wouldn't already guess or know from trying it in game yourself. PD first is not great DPS wise and of the AD items is the worst to rush for pure DPS if you have no AD steriods (or have AS steroids/strong AD scaling abilities). AD builds won't hit a high efficiency point until IE is built but IE by itself only begins to engage carry DPS mode (not counting any steroids). BT really needs its stacks to be efficient, BC falls off against higher armor ratings but can work OK into late game, becoming a replacement for the second PD. Also Vayne can build whatever she wants because she does more damage than anyone else by a good deal at all stages of the game. IDK I went to all the work of doing it and just found out that, more or less, IE->PD->LW is just the best way to go. If anything from the spreadsheets it's surprising that people go BT at all. In the end experience > math here. Waitwut. Are you trying to say that from your spreadsheets IE rush isn't THAT awesome for dps compared to if you'd go BF+zeal? Cause that would be an argument in favor of "a bit of everything quickly"-builds imo.
Sorry, bolded statement is trying to say that PD first is pretty bad. You can basically be intuitive about all of this. Like, I'd consider PD first with Janna/Vayne but not Trist/Nunu or anything like that.
About IE I was trying to say that, while getting IE is an important landmark, a carry with just IE is far from god mode. The multipliers don't start getting ridiculous until at least IE + PD. Like you can do cute midgame stuff with like BC/SotD or BC/Ghostblade on many champs and keep up with a more traditional DPS build until IE + PD, but once IE + PD happens any other AD build generally gets blown out of the water.
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maybe i am completely wrong but since as bonus work off your base speed not current attack speed gets worse and worse the more you get, so how is PD WORSE on people with no steroid? if you have no steroid you will get the most benefit from PD in terms of pure dps.
are we also talking vayne specific because for her attack speed helps 1 of her abilities, also graves e scales with as but on the other hand ezreal doesnt get any other bonus to as except more autohit dmg
On January 08 2012 09:39 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:19 turdburgler wrote:On January 08 2012 09:17 r.Evo wrote:
Hm. Assuming 5225gold you can get:
a) Serkers, Dblade, IE = +25% AS, +90 AD, +25% crit chance, crits +50% dmg., 3% lifesteal.
b) Serkers, Dblade, BF, zeal, vampscepter, dagger. = +60% AS, +55 AD, +10% crit. +15%lifesteal, +8% movement speed
c) Serkers, Dblade, Pickaxe + PD = +80% AS, +35AD, +30% crit, +15% movement speed
Now the question is, which of those would you want to have for your first big teamfight? =P now heres a realistic example ;p you are playing x champ, y lane oponent will poke you out without decent life steal. you have to b at like roughly 1600 gold. do you get a bf sword and continue to leave lane early or be zoned out before you cant sustain yourself, or do you get a zeal and a scepter to enable to you last hit and sustain a ton better? blindly IE first seems like a ridiculous over simplification of the game I agree with your idea of oversimplification, but in your instance if I had 1600 gold I would definitely get the BF Sword especially if I had a sustain support like Soraka. If I have a good support then I really shouldn't have to worry about sustain. I would actually last hit a LOT better with a bonus 45 attack damage than with extra attack speed/movespeed/crit. Generally I don't B unless I HAVE to OR I can afford the BF Sword. And if I B before I can afford BFS then I purchase Doran's for extra sustain while still giving just a slight attack bonus.
if you are talking about a soraka lane then theres probably something going full retard if you are getting poked out, im talking about situations where u clearly arent being healed enough.
i also think movement speed in general is so underrated, if you cant catch people you do 0 dps, if you run faster you do dps. you see people every day of the week running away at 10% hp. in that situation zeal is infinitely better than IE let alone PDvsIE
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On January 08 2012 09:29 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:26 Shikyo wrote:
So you rather stack dblades and delay your IE by forever? Not sure how I feel about that though some people still like doing it. "By forever" when you're being poked out of lane because you're too weak to win in trades. That's some really piss poor logic. If you are weak in trades, you get dblades so you can win or go even. You sit on the scepter because its a lot of free sustain, but it will only help you a little during actual trades. If you try to ignore getting dblades/scepter and rush straight for IE when you're already losing trades then you're going to end up getting zoned and losing on CS. I feel I have to point this out since you aren't grasping it on your own: your IE will be delayed by as much (or more) from rushing it and getting zoned than by getting solid early/midgame items and being able to hold your own in lane. DBlades are generally also the only source of HP for AD carries, who have some of the lowest base HP pools in the game to begin with. They are incredibly useful to have going into the midgame.
Well I dunno, when I've got boots 1 + BF + vamp I feel very confident against 3 Dorans + Zerkers.
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We're back to unrealistic situations, then. The scenario was that you're losing trades / being outpoked and have to decide what to buy. If the enemy AD is already winning trades / superior poke, they're not going to get 3 dblades and zerkers.
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i think it's best with twitch to not level expunge but the slow if you do a lvl 2 gank.
the opponent won't get away even with using flash.
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On January 08 2012 09:18 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:16 BlackPaladin wrote:On January 08 2012 09:00 Shikyo wrote:On January 08 2012 08:50 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:45 Noocta wrote:
I hope i'm reading it wrong and people ain't starting think PD first is a good item.
Because if it's the case, i lose all faith in this game. I said I go PD first on Kog'Maw and people decided it'd be a good idea to compare PD and IE damage. Sorry about that ^_^ Mmm I'm pretty sure it started from TRM going PD first on Corki solo top followed by LW. I maintained TRM's Corki build was retarded. Some people said it was good/okay and now this discussion. PD first is godawful on most AD carries. Even on Vayne or Kog where they scale really well with attack speed, I'd still much rather have BT before a completed PD. The only champ in the game I can imagine who PD first could be core is tryndamere, but that's because his Q and passive gives him tons of offensive stats that PD can amplify. @Shikyo: If you can't kite properly with IE imo you're doing it wrong :\ Nah it's actually just not possible to kite properly with IE o_o I'm not doing anything wrong Notsureifserious.jpg IE is outright better than PD + w/e you want to add to give it equal gold value. As an AD carry you NEED damage. You keep yourself alive by proper positioning, your summoners, and a bit of peel from your team. Getting PD FIRST so "you can kite better" just means your positioning is horrendous. You need damage to be a threat. Otherwise your farm is simply wasted. PD doesn't give you damage, it amplifies it. If you have none to begin with you're going to still do no damage. If you're the AD carry on your team and you're doing no damage "but you're alive!" you're more useless than an ad carry that did a ton of damage but died. BTW if you didn't know this I go IE first nearly every time unless playing vayne, all I'm saying is that it should be considered as an option. Also I could say, some progamers like to actually make PD first so you guys are obviously better players, right? This seems like the TL general discussion thread logic so let's use it. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:09 LoCicero wrote:On January 08 2012 09:03 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 08 2012 09:00 Shikyo wrote:On January 08 2012 08:50 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 08 2012 08:45 Noocta wrote:
I hope i'm reading it wrong and people ain't starting think PD first is a good item.
Because if it's the case, i lose all faith in this game. I said I go PD first on Kog'Maw and people decided it'd be a good idea to compare PD and IE damage. Sorry about that ^_^ Mmm I'm pretty sure it started from TRM going PD first on Corki solo top followed by LW. I maintained TRM's Corki build was retarded. Some people said it was good/okay and now this discussion. PD first is godawful on most AD carries. Even on Vayne or Kog where they scale really well with attack speed, I'd still much rather have BT before a completed PD. The only champ in the game I can imagine who PD first could be core is tryndamere, but that's because his Q and passive gives him tons of offensive stats that PD can amplify. @Shikyo: If you can't kite properly with IE imo you're doing it wrong :\ Nah it's actually just not possible to kite properly with IE o_o I'm not doing anything wrong AAANNNND thats my cue to stop arguing with you. I nominate this for best post of 2012. Can you stop repeatedly sneaking insults at me, please?
When was the last time a progamer went PD first on an AD carry not named Kog/Vayne?
TRM went PD first on Corki in M5 v. TSM, but he was a non-factor in team fights until he got LW and he said so himself. Not to mention that was the first time I've ever seen TRM play Corki.
On January 08 2012 09:28 tobi9999 wrote:
builds aren't important as we think they are. I'd argue that they have a huge impact on lane phase, but significantly less in teamfights. Like, some champions are just going to hit like trucks still as long as their build isn't COMPLETELY COMPLETELY retarded.
Builds are more important than you think they are. Getting the right build is similar to using the right build order in SC2, albeit less crucial. I'd argue that builds have a bigger impact in teamfights than in lane. Getting a crucial item (IE, Dcap, PD, LW, etc...) at X minutes allows your team to make plays based on the jump in power on specific champions. For example, after most AP carries get their dcap, their damage potential jumps a shitload, allowing their team to play more aggressive and contest objectives.
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i dont see how LW is relevent to this discussion. its an independant item and %armor reduce is a % dmg gain. if TRM is saying IE would of been better than PD, then he MUST also say that IE + LW is better than PD + LW.
again need someone to correct me if im wrong but isnt LW trash on corki? tons of magic dmg, an armor shred and before armor true dmg seem to all scream to me that % armor reduce is bad on him? surely he should get yamumus instead?
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In case it hasn't already been posted, CLG and TSM scrimming in about 15min
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EPT
