|
On January 08 2012 10:50 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 10:48 TheYango wrote:On January 08 2012 10:46 turdburgler wrote:
except its a pointless debate, how you spend your gold is in no way related to your ap just running off and trying to split push turrets even though you want to 5v5 or have a yi/garen. Yes minor issues like item selection are outweighed by idiots being idiots in solo queue. But seeing as this whole debate started with regard to Rain Man in a scrim, I assumed that we were discussing this as it pertains to high level play, where small differences ARE relevant. Theorycraft is by nature pretty useless at low levels because of how many mistakes are made compared to optimal play (those gold values at various levels won't even match up properly to the levels I gave for someone who can't lasthit at least decently). This was the point I was trying to make! Item builds aren't as important as just playing properly lol. Case #1 Rain Man. Cringe everytime I see him play and see the stupid ass PD first on all AD things, and see him still win against the other ADs. The worst part is that he's like "YOU SEE GUYS? PD FIRST IS GOOD, I JUST RAPED THIS KID"
Yeah, I agree, the reason he wins is cause he's mechanically much better than everyone else in the game, not cause he build PD first >.<
|
well when it turned to "items dont matter" i thought we were talking about solo queue :D
lol is a snowball game is a broad sense, but at the same time. you can be a good pick against x and be behind due to a gank, or you can be vayne who is a late game monster truck and not need to win a lane outright. getting ahead doesnt mean its time to go full retard because items dont matter.
items are part of the bigger picture, they only matter in relatively close games. if you are 10k up normally you can just buy whatever if you feel like it. but in the same way, if you are 10k up you can prob tunnel down their tank for lols because your dmg is so high, or win 4v5s while you split push.
being ahead and buying a retarded item doesnt mean items dont matter, it just means its possible to be ahead in so many ways that 1 facet of the game doesnt matter.
|
United States47024 Posts
On January 08 2012 10:50 tobi9999 wrote:
Item builds aren't as important as just playing properly lol.
While this is true, it's hardly any skin off your back to learn to itemize correctly. It's not a tradeoff, where learning to itemize correctly takes away from your ability to play properly.
|
I had like the worst day of LoL today. Missing cs everywhere, not gauging opponent strengths properly, not paying attention to minimap, etc. I won two games out of like 10~12.
also, Kayle and Nunu bot lane going on in EG vs. TSM.
|
On January 08 2012 10:04 emperorchampion wrote:
In case it hasn't already been posted, CLG and TSM scrimming in about 15min
Guess it's EG instead! About to start.
|
On January 08 2012 10:52 turdburgler wrote:
well when it turned to "items dont matter" i thought we were talking about solo queue :D
lol is a snowball game is a broad sense, but at the same time. you can be a good pick against x and be behind due to a gank, or you can be vayne who is a late game monster truck and not need to win a lane outright. getting ahead doesnt mean its time to go full retard because items dont matter.
Well, 99.99% of the time, wins in games are not attributed to better builds, but rather better team comp and better players. Am I correct?
CLG will win against random 1500 ELO team A if they build the most troll items in existence but play better with their skills.
CLG would not win against random 1500 ELO team A if they suddenly turned into 1200 ELO scrubs mechanically, but were geniuses on what to build.
|
On January 08 2012 10:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 10:46 turdburgler wrote:
except its a pointless debate, how you spend your gold is in no way related to your ap just running off and trying to split push turrets even though you want to 5v5 or have a yi/garen. Yes minor issues like item selection are outweighed by idiots being idiots in solo queue. But seeing as this whole debate started with regard to Rain Man in a scrim, I assumed that we were discussing this as it pertains to high level play, where small differences ARE relevant. Theorycraft is by nature pretty useless at low levels because of how many mistakes are made compared to optimal play (those gold values at various levels won't even match up properly to the levels I gave for someone who can't lasthit at least decently).
Theorycrafting only works to an extent at all levels because theorycrafting is often done in a vacuum using isolated "what if" scenarios that don't consider team comp, the strength of ALL other players, the enemy's team comp, Summoner Spells, rune pages, masteries, and most importantly, individual playstyle.
If there really was a "theoretical optimum" for skill level then I doubt we'd see so much variation on team comps and champs that players pick.
Why doesn't every team use double AP with double WOTA as Saintvicious suggested? Why doesn't everyone jungle Maokai? Why do people ban Nidalee against HotshotGG but not against most other players/teams?
There're just too many factors to consider, which goes back to what I said originally - just go with what works best for you. Consider other people's theories but always do what you can to win.
|
|
|
On January 08 2012 10:56 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 10:52 turdburgler wrote:
well when it turned to "items dont matter" i thought we were talking about solo queue :D
lol is a snowball game is a broad sense, but at the same time. you can be a good pick against x and be behind due to a gank, or you can be vayne who is a late game monster truck and not need to win a lane outright. getting ahead doesnt mean its time to go full retard because items dont matter. Well, 99.99% of the time, wins in games are not attributed to better builds, but rather better team comp and better players. Am I correct? CLG will win against random 1500 ELO team A if they build the most troll items in existence but play better with their skills. CLG would not win against random 1500 ELO team A if they suddenly turned into 1200 ELO scrubs mechanically, but were geniuses on what to build.
That's a completely ridiculous example, wtf? How about you compare a 2150 elo skill level team vs a 2125 skill level team
|
Through all of this arguing, I have discovered why I find so many people terrible in solo queue.
It's just that, everyone has different opinions about the game, and these opinions are neither wrong or right. However in your head they are wrong or right. And so when you see people doing stuff, you will be seeing them making mistakes, even when in their head it's the right thing to do. It's the same thing vice versa, and in the end everyone ends up in ELO hell because everyone thinks everyone else sucks, because everyone has different opinions about the game. gg
EDIT: @Shikyo, because if you watched a 2150 team play and a 2125 team play, you probably couldn't even tell which one was higher in elo zzzzz.
|
On January 08 2012 10:57 Promises wrote:
Weird setup from EG
Dyrus lost to that bot lane yesterday in a solo Q game and really liked it.
TSM manhandling EG at this point. They let them pretty much their dreamteam, though, minus Corki. I still don't know what to think about TRM trying to pick up Corki and their double AD approach in general.
13 minute surrender by EG.
|
Loci Panth + Yiruru Maokai botlane :D
|
On January 08 2012 11:10 tobi9999 wrote:
Through all of this arguing, I have discovered why I find so many people terrible in solo queue.
It's just that, everyone has different opinions about the game, and these opinions are neither wrong or right. However in your head they are wrong or right. And so when you see people doing stuff, you will be seeing them making mistakes, even when in their head it's the right thing to do. It's the same thing vice versa, and in the end everyone ends up in ELO hell because everyone thinks everyone else sucks, because everyone has different opinions about the game. gg
EDIT: @Shikyo, because if you watched a 2150 team play and a 2125 team play, you probably couldn't even tell which one was higher in elo zzzzz.
Yeah so in that case the item builds are going to be important which btw was my point
|
On January 08 2012 11:14 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
Loci Panth + Yiruru Maokai botlane :D
TL pride 2 stronk. Also, PhantomLord best Janna NA.
|
On January 08 2012 11:10 Shiv. wrote:Dyrus lost to that bot lane yesterday in a solo Q game and really liked it. TSM manhandling EG at this point. They let them pretty much their dreamteam, though, minus Corki. I still don't know what to think about TRM trying to pick up Corki and their double AD approach in general. 13 minute surrender by EG.
I do remember having to solotop vs a Kayle-Nunu combo once, which was absolute hell. Every step away from the turret resulted in a slowbolt of some sort, I just could not get anything done at all.
|
On January 08 2012 11:15 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 11:10 tobi9999 wrote:
Through all of this arguing, I have discovered why I find so many people terrible in solo queue.
It's just that, everyone has different opinions about the game, and these opinions are neither wrong or right. However in your head they are wrong or right. And so when you see people doing stuff, you will be seeing them making mistakes, even when in their head it's the right thing to do. It's the same thing vice versa, and in the end everyone ends up in ELO hell because everyone thinks everyone else sucks, because everyone has different opinions about the game. gg
EDIT: @Shikyo, because if you watched a 2150 team play and a 2125 team play, you probably couldn't even tell which one was higher in elo zzzzz. Yeah so in that case the item builds are going to be important which btw was my point
Team skill most important for winning games
Team composition 2nd most important
Snowball effect from stuff like RNG and who ever messes up first is 3rd
then finally, what matters is whether the AD carry built Black cleaver or not. zzzzzzzz
My point in the first place is that builds aren't what wins game, and people are perfectly capable of being 2100 ELO despite building PD first.
|
team skill isnt this binary 1 or 0 value though, theres a scale of skills just like theres a scale of items, on leesin almost anything helps in some way, an item might be 10% better than another or 90% better, the same way a team is 10% or 90% better, the only item worth nothing on him is mana crystal
|
On January 08 2012 10:00 turdburgler wrote:
i dont see how LW is relevent to this discussion. its an independant item and %armor reduce is a % dmg gain. if TRM is saying IE would of been better than PD, then he MUST also say that IE + LW is better than PD + LW.
Not true at all, simply doesn't follow. IE increases the value of both crit and attack speed a ton because of passive and the fact that you as the carry are short on AS/crit for stats after IE, so PD should be your default choice after IE. LW is situational, like void staff: You get it earlier than void because people get free armor but it all depends on who you really need to kill and how much armor they have. It doesn't depend so much on what items you currently hold.
again need someone to correct me if im wrong but isnt LW trash on corki? tons of magic dmg, an armor shred and before armor true dmg seem to all scream to me that % armor reduce is bad on him? surely he should get yamumus instead?
Corki usually gets BC when he forgos LW. LW isn't % reduction. If LW actually was % reduction rather than % pen LW would be really good on Corki since it would be applied first rather than last. Ghostblade is, unfortunately, a pretty bad item for ranged ADs.
edit: sorry guys, didn't notice 2 new pages. =(
|
|
|
Im glad they're thinking of changing the animation of blitzcranks Q. It just doesn't feel good and epic as it was from Pudge. Seriously, pudge is just like throwing like a hook but it looked so cool.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
