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On December 02 2011 01:20 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 00:59 r.Evo wrote:Wait... what? "Hey um... since junglers are always MIA and therefore ruin games we kinda wanted to nerf them a little bit, but we didnt want to tell you so we 'remade' the jungle and now have to somehow fix our fix first before this game gets not retarded again." In which universe were junglers as impactfull as Morello is mentioning it there over the last patches? Is it a universe without wards, without (even the nerfed) CV? The few times I played against top EU teams as a jungler they didn't even NEED accurate warding or CVs because they simply read the enemies play well enough to smell a jungle gank coming from miles away. I was one of the (few) people who were like "If they do this right it could be awesome" when I went over what I read as the intented changes for jungling but the tl;dr changes of jungling being "We wanna make junglers weaker since it fucks over newbs" is a pretty damn big fuckup for a company who wants their game to be considered well-balanced and competetive. So how WOULD you "win" a gank by a jungler? If it´s another laner the fact that they leave their lane and miss minions is the reward. With junglers even if you have wards you are forced to stay passive since you can´t fight 1v2 or 2v3 - and if you could the jungler wouldn´t show up. The issue with jungleganks isn´t that people die to much to them but that the smart way to deal with them is to play passivly. The change isn´t intended to make ganks weaker but actually punishing if you mess them up.
Before this patch:
-Enemy jungle decides to gank top/bottom past a ward. I can safely steal the other half of his jungle since he's wasting time trying to force a gank on my lane. This will set him behind since the creeps don't respawn till he's back to cleaning duty.
-Enemy jungle shows up close to my lane, trying to gank. I deliberately stay where both of the enemies would say "Mhmm.. not sure if he has warded" but safe. I sacrifice some CS, the enemy jungle sacrifices time which my jungler can abuse. Once he leaves I can be aggressive.
The smart way to deal with junglers was never to "play passively" - the smart way are wards, CVs and map awareness. It's called "selective aggression"
Also:
People don't like nerfs, especially intended ones. Part of this is to bring down jungling a little bit, because as you said, their tactical advantages and position are very important and impactful already.
...sounds to me as if Riot (hint: Morello) perveiced junglers in their last known state as too strong.
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Like I said in my previous post you can see the logic behind nerfing junglers if it's part of a long line of changes they have planned. As Morello said the fact that your main ganking hero can be mia the whole game while farming the jungle for buffs/exp/gold is pretty strong, so with the previous jungle you could never go ahead and nerf things like unlimited wards and it does limit the aggressiveness of lanes. However it's still stupid to not roll out all their planned changes at once (assuming they have more), jungler has not been overpowered because you could counter them with wards/cv/summoners/escapes.
There was also only a couple junglers that could keep up with solo lane exp without getting super fed, and despite this they are still the 4th poorest person in the game so it's not like junglers come out as strong as solo lanes (unless fed from ganks). If you look at junglers like ww/gp/trundle, the solo lanes are out leveling them by a long way from level 6 (at least) onwards. Between the last few tournaments the fotm junglers have changed each time as well depending on the playstyles of the teams, it was actually an interesting part of their competitive play.
All nerfing the jungle has done is make there be less viable junglers, made them weaker overall, and less fun. I'm not sure how they get permission to release a patch that makes the game less fun for people. Laners are still going to ward everywhere just because of the threat of a gank, especially as if one persons jungler gets fed they basically steamroll the other team since a jungler with less successful ganks who just farmed ends up further behind than previously.
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On December 02 2011 01:04 unichan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 00:53 Two_DoWn wrote:
I just watched the LO3 thing about how the koreans are gonna smash everyone at WCG. Could they win? Sure. But is it more likely that every american and canadian is going to be too drunk to actually give a shit during the games? Probably. Whiteboi trying to justify why his NA buddies are going to get smashed by QT asians ^_^
What. There are only like 6 non asians on the NA teams anyhoo, out of 15. Well, 7 if you count whatever the hell qtpie is.
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On December 02 2011 01:51 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:04 unichan wrote:On December 02 2011 00:53 Two_DoWn wrote:
I just watched the LO3 thing about how the koreans are gonna smash everyone at WCG. Could they win? Sure. But is it more likely that every american and canadian is going to be too drunk to actually give a shit during the games? Probably. Whiteboi trying to justify why his NA buddies are going to get smashed by QT asians ^_^ What. There are only like 6 non asians on the NA teams anyhoo, out of 15. Well, 7 if you count whatever the hell qtpie is.
I was referring more to ur continent loyalty
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
dis game pretty herp derp now. hope they fix it soon
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On December 02 2011 01:41 r.Evo wrote:Also: Show nested quote +People don't like nerfs, especially intended ones. Part of this is to bring down jungling a little bit, because as you said, their tactical advantages and position are very important and impactful already. ...sounds to me as if Riot (hint: Morello) perveiced junglers in their last known state as too strong.
The mastery changes (which overbuffed the majority of champs) did make jungling a bit too fast. The problem is the masteries, however, and not the jungle.
The issue is they were planning jungle 0.2 before the masteries even came out, so any claim that the jungle was only changed because the masteries made things too strong is 110% pure bullshit.
On December 01 2011 23:13 freelander wrote:
I don't like that they implicitly nerfed Heimer (and a few other guys) with not being able to shred armor/mres of dragon/nashor :\
A little, but the game I played heimer we still raped dragon/baron really quick
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The only problem with the game right now is the terrible client that disconnects every 10seconds and fucks up champ select, and no, it's not me it's riot.
3.5hour queue on EU.
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On December 02 2011 01:36 FR4CT4L wrote:
Hotshot stream so relaxing atm ^___^
Calmshotgg
Yeah, wat. TOO dies in a failed gank or smt:
(pleasantly) Nice try, Odd One.
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On December 02 2011 02:09 Ryalnos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:36 FR4CT4L wrote:
Hotshot stream so relaxing atm ^___^
Calmshotgg Yeah, wat. TOO dies in a failed gank or smt: (pleasantly) Nice try, Odd One.
I blame riot, first they nerf our jungles, now they nerf our hotshotgg rage. This cannot stand.
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So bear has mundo's ult as a passive?
Cute ^_^
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Yeah, it needs to be cut down to like 10-15% tops. 30% is really broken atm.
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What happened to hotshot? Seems like he is still talking as much trash as usually but much quieter, someone sleeping at his home or something?
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On December 02 2011 01:10 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 00:41 NeoIllusions wrote:On December 02 2011 00:35 Southlight wrote:
Because Cass gets axed by CC and suffers from her short range compared to most other great-scaling AP heroes. wat wat? Short range? We talking about Cass here? What set of AP champs outrange her Q. It's 850 range. Edit: I really like Cass because her full combo is just fk tard silly. And no RNG rage like Brand on occasion. Malz does, but her E range is 700 but with a brutal post-cast dead stop that you can't really cancel much. Most other AP heroes are not as hit hard by CC as Cass because they don't sit there and spam a spell. It's a range and animation issue, similar to how Twitch is dreadful at kiting.
If you're just sitting there spamming spells, you're doing it wrong. Cass es queen of kiting.
Edit: Her q gives her move speed for god sakes!
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move speed buff and a slow
you don't get much better at kiting than that
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On December 02 2011 01:28 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 00:35 Southlight wrote:
Because Cass gets axed by CC and suffers from her short range compared to most other great-scaling AP heroes. I don't get this - one of the main reasons Cass is so strong in lane is because she has longer effective range than pretty much everyone not named Xerath. Same thing in team fights - you use Q and W to slow their entire team and watch them run helplessly, and if they get caught out of position and/or run towards you then you can pick them off with E. Pretty much every AP (except Xerath, fuck that guy) needs to get pretty close for their full nukes.
Yeah but Cass has to stay in there to do damage will most other APs can just blow CDs and back off until a new round of CDs is up.
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On December 02 2011 02:37 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:28 Sandster wrote:On December 02 2011 00:35 Southlight wrote:
Because Cass gets axed by CC and suffers from her short range compared to most other great-scaling AP heroes. I don't get this - one of the main reasons Cass is so strong in lane is because she has longer effective range than pretty much everyone not named Xerath. Same thing in team fights - you use Q and W to slow their entire team and watch them run helplessly, and if they get caught out of position and/or run towards you then you can pick them off with E. Pretty much every AP (except Xerath, fuck that guy) needs to get pretty close for their full nukes. Yeah but Cass has to stay in there to do damage will most other APs can just blow CDs and back off until a new round of CDs is up.
If you are "staying in" with cass you are doing something wrong. You have huge range. Abuse it. You have to play her like an ad carry almost- just pick off whoever is stupid enough to separate forward.
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On December 02 2011 02:13 OreoBoi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 02:09 Ryalnos wrote:On December 02 2011 01:36 FR4CT4L wrote:
Hotshot stream so relaxing atm ^___^
Calmshotgg Yeah, wat. TOO dies in a failed gank or smt: (pleasantly) Nice try, Odd One. I blame riot, first they nerf our jungles, now they nerf our hotshotgg rage. This cannot stand.
well after that last game rageshotgg is back at the end
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On December 02 2011 02:39 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 02:37 Woony wrote:On December 02 2011 01:28 Sandster wrote:On December 02 2011 00:35 Southlight wrote:
Because Cass gets axed by CC and suffers from her short range compared to most other great-scaling AP heroes. I don't get this - one of the main reasons Cass is so strong in lane is because she has longer effective range than pretty much everyone not named Xerath. Same thing in team fights - you use Q and W to slow their entire team and watch them run helplessly, and if they get caught out of position and/or run towards you then you can pick them off with E. Pretty much every AP (except Xerath, fuck that guy) needs to get pretty close for their full nukes. Yeah but Cass has to stay in there to do damage will most other APs can just blow CDs and back off until a new round of CDs is up. If you are "staying in" with cass you are doing something wrong. You have huge range. Abuse it. You have to play her like an ad carry almost- just pick off whoever is stupid enough to separate forward.
I believe what was meant by "staying in" is that Cass must reside in the 700-850 range for the entire duration of a team fight to fulfill her damage potential, whereas many other AP champions (Malzahar, Brand, et al) can unload everything and then back the hell off until their CDs are back.
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On December 02 2011 02:39 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 02:37 Woony wrote:On December 02 2011 01:28 Sandster wrote:On December 02 2011 00:35 Southlight wrote:
Because Cass gets axed by CC and suffers from her short range compared to most other great-scaling AP heroes. I don't get this - one of the main reasons Cass is so strong in lane is because she has longer effective range than pretty much everyone not named Xerath. Same thing in team fights - you use Q and W to slow their entire team and watch them run helplessly, and if they get caught out of position and/or run towards you then you can pick them off with E. Pretty much every AP (except Xerath, fuck that guy) needs to get pretty close for their full nukes. Yeah but Cass has to stay in there to do damage will most other APs can just blow CDs and back off until a new round of CDs is up. If you are "staying in" with cass you are doing something wrong. You have huge range. Abuse it. You have to play her like an ad carry almost- just pick off whoever is stupid enough to separate forward.
When you're poking with Q, yeah, you have pretty good range. When you're spamming twin fang, your range isn't really that great though. The DPS is pretty beastly, though. Thing is, Cassi tends to be a little on the tanky side of AP carries anyway (since both ROA and Rylai are pretty nice on her, so aside from deathcap her core has reasonable. survivability)
You're right though, don't go diving past a team to twin-fang-spam their carry, play that part of her like an AD carry. Poke poke poke, and lay some of your sweet sweet no-CD DPS on the targets in range without putting yourself at huge risk until it's time to ult half their team and murder some squishies.
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On December 02 2011 02:53 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 02:39 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 02 2011 02:37 Woony wrote:On December 02 2011 01:28 Sandster wrote:On December 02 2011 00:35 Southlight wrote:
Because Cass gets axed by CC and suffers from her short range compared to most other great-scaling AP heroes. I don't get this - one of the main reasons Cass is so strong in lane is because she has longer effective range than pretty much everyone not named Xerath. Same thing in team fights - you use Q and W to slow their entire team and watch them run helplessly, and if they get caught out of position and/or run towards you then you can pick them off with E. Pretty much every AP (except Xerath, fuck that guy) needs to get pretty close for their full nukes. Yeah but Cass has to stay in there to do damage will most other APs can just blow CDs and back off until a new round of CDs is up. If you are "staying in" with cass you are doing something wrong. You have huge range. Abuse it. You have to play her like an ad carry almost- just pick off whoever is stupid enough to separate forward. When you're poking with Q, yeah, you have pretty good range. When you're spamming twin fang, your range isn't really that great though. The DPS is pretty beastly, though. Thing is, Cassi tends to be a little on the tanky side of AP carries anyway (since both ROA and Rylai are pretty nice on her, so aside from deathcap her core has reasonable. survivability)
If you're spamming twin fang your target should die lol, if you die while spamming twin fang you either spam at the wrong time or you didn't have a wota.
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EPT
