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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 02 2011 04:13 Two_DoWn wrote:
Im just curious what Riots endgame is with all these changes. I THINK they expect that a harder to pull of jungle gank means that lanes are going to be more aggressive, but everyone who is at least semidecent at this games knows that it's impossible to kill anyone 1v1 unless someone is drastically better at the game.
I dont even want to think about how boring tourney games are going to be. You thought 20 minute farmfests were bad WITH jungles? Imagine how bad they are going to be when you dont have to worry about dying to a jungle, or having less a worry.
I think that somewhere in their heads Riot thinks they can make the tradeoff between aggression and farming more equal, but honestly, I dont think its possible. Farming will just always be better. And if you can farm safely, why would you bother being an aggressor? Especially if you play someone who can just abuse the other lane, you dont actually ever have to worry about killing them and overextending to do it, you can just be content sending them back to base over and over again cuz health pots dont heal as much anymore.
Unless they increase gold per kill by like 500 you're right. Farming is way better, and now there are fewer places to farm
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Jungle changes are awesome, can gank whenever and never feel pressured to kill creeps or run around in the most optimal pattern. Spend less time killing small camps, more time to run around and do things.
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lol apparently vman7 got perm banned
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On December 02 2011 04:22 seppolevne wrote:
Jungle changes are awesome, can gank whenever and never feel pressured to kill creeps or run around in the most optimal pattern. Spend less time killing small camps, more time to run around and do things.
Being level 13 when everyone's 18 is pretty cool, huh?
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On December 02 2011 04:28 seRapH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 04:22 seppolevne wrote:
Jungle changes are awesome, can gank whenever and never feel pressured to kill creeps or run around in the most optimal pattern. Spend less time killing small camps, more time to run around and do things. Being level 13 when everyone's 18 is pretty cool, huh?
...and just finishing your wriggles 25 minutes into the game...
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On December 02 2011 04:21 Terranasaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 04:13 Two_DoWn wrote:
Im just curious what Riots endgame is with all these changes. I THINK they expect that a harder to pull of jungle gank means that lanes are going to be more aggressive, but everyone who is at least semidecent at this games knows that it's impossible to kill anyone 1v1 unless someone is drastically better at the game.
I dont even want to think about how boring tourney games are going to be. You thought 20 minute farmfests were bad WITH jungles? Imagine how bad they are going to be when you dont have to worry about dying to a jungle, or having less a worry.
I think that somewhere in their heads Riot thinks they can make the tradeoff between aggression and farming more equal, but honestly, I dont think its possible. Farming will just always be better. And if you can farm safely, why would you bother being an aggressor? Especially if you play someone who can just abuse the other lane, you dont actually ever have to worry about killing them and overextending to do it, you can just be content sending them back to base over and over again cuz health pots dont heal as much anymore. Unless they increase gold per kill by like 500 you're right. Farming is way better, and now there are fewer places to farm
If you get 800 gold for killing somebody the game is over at first blood basically ^_^
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On December 02 2011 04:26 Craton wrote:
lol apparently vman7 got perm banned
details?
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On December 02 2011 04:13 Two_DoWn wrote:
Im just curious what Riots endgame is with all these changes. I THINK they expect that a harder to pull of jungle gank means that lanes are going to be more aggressive, but everyone who is at least semidecent at this games knows that it's impossible to kill anyone 1v1 unless someone is drastically better at the game.
I dont even want to think about how boring tourney games are going to be. You thought 20 minute farmfests were bad WITH jungles? Imagine how bad they are going to be when you dont have to worry about dying to a jungle, or having less a worry.
I think that somewhere in their heads Riot thinks they can make the tradeoff between aggression and farming more equal, but honestly, I dont think its possible. Farming will just always be better. And if you can farm safely, why would you bother being an aggressor? Especially if you play someone who can just abuse the other lane, you dont actually ever have to worry about killing them and overextending to do it, you can just be content sending them back to base over and over again cuz health pots dont heal as much anymore.
If you ask me they need to make jungle ganks more viable in order to promote lane aggression because then the only way you will be able to farm safely is if you are sufficiently far ahead of your opponent that they can't reasonably kill you 2v1 (i.e. your lane opponent is weak enough to basically not be there if the jungle comes to gank / becomes a free kill for leaving their tower).
Making jungle camps take longer to clear (but more rewarding) also promotes aggression because invading the jungle to stop the enemy doing wraiths / golems / wolves becomes a viable option instead of just trying to stop the buff camps. Basically, instead of trying to make the jungle less of a threat they could make it more of a threat which forces the opponents to do something about stopping it.
Currently sleep deprived so this may or may not even make sense
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What runes/masteries do you run? I am curious. I spec full offensive pretty much. Ganks hurt!
On December 02 2011 01:19 Bladeorade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 19:43 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I've been running boots 3 pots Skarnar. I start blue and I get red just as smite comes back up and finish it. I usually clear anywhere from 3min to 3min 30sec depending on how hard the blue leash was.
I almost always get first blood since me and top lane are same level when I gank. (Or bot lane, depends on location.)
I'm unsure on the items to go with skarnar though. I go wiggles mercs warmogs atmas and then GA or Thorn depending. Suggestions? You dont need Wriggles on Skarner. I start boots and being specced into defensive I think my movespeed at level 1 is 388. I go Sheen first, then Mercs. Depending on how the game is going I'll either get Phage then a Defensive item or Defensive Item then Phage. Tri Force is really good on him whether or not you like it. His gap closer is only move speed and flash, and trinity makes his movespeed better, makes his CDs come up faster, increases his damage, and slows his opponents even more (lol.) I usually go Trinity into tanky and my last item (aka I rarely build it) is Gunblade. I like Wits End as my first defensive item because it is so strong and Skarner scales well with attack speed. For armor I prefer Randuins or Frozen Heart. I have not yet seen the need for Warmogs on Skarner. His W being up so often gives him a lot of hidden health.
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On December 02 2011 04:35 Craton wrote:
trolled for 2 years ?
lame was hoping for some big drama
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On December 02 2011 04:03 Craton wrote:
Only junglers I've seen work are Udyr Skarner and Shaco. First two aoe clear 24/7 and shaco has boxes do buffs by themselves while he clears somewhere else.
I've had decent success with maokai. You can get to level 4 with double buff at around 3:20 - 3:40 and try for a gank. His ganks are really strong and he clears wolves/wraiths like instantly. I don't bother with the double golems or red buff too much though unless theres no ganks available at all.
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The other thing we haven't talked about is the HUGE buffs to TF's and Zilean's passives. I mean, come on, the TF passive now buffs your gold from small monsters by 50%!!
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On December 02 2011 04:49 Terranasaur wrote:
The other thing we haven't talked about is the HUGE buffs to TF's and Zilean's passives. I mean, come on, the TF passive now buffs your gold from small monsters by 50%!!
So if you get 250 cs you get en extra doran item. Sounds great.
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On December 02 2011 04:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 04:49 Terranasaur wrote:
The other thing we haven't talked about is the HUGE buffs to TF's and Zilean's passives. I mean, come on, the TF passive now buffs your gold from small monsters by 50%!! So if you get 250 cs you get en extra doran item. Sounds great.
it's like getting 1 additional creep each wave over your opponent.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 02 2011 04:13 Two_DoWn wrote:
I think that somewhere in their heads Riot thinks they can make the tradeoff between aggression and farming more equal, but honestly, I dont think its possible. Farming will just always be better. And if you can farm safely, why would you bother being an aggressor? Especially if you play someone who can just abuse the other lane, you dont actually ever have to worry about killing them and overextending to do it, you can just be content sending them back to base over and over again cuz health pots dont heal as much anymore.
The thing is, you ultimately can't get aggression from both sides of the lane. Either one person can very clearly win a fight between the two (in which case he's the aggressor and the other person is playing defensive), or it's close, and it's not worth the risk to battle it out 1v1. The only time you can ever get a case where two people would battle it out to the death are when either one person misjudged whether or not he can win the fight, or BOTH of them are stupid and fighting when its not really worth the risk. Neither case is going to happen a lot at high levels, simply because people are just better at judging which fights they can win.
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Maokai can farm the jungle indefinitely. The question is whether that's worthwhile or not. I actually think the usefulness/viability of having junglers prioritize farming hasn't been adequately explored, but at this precise moment it's probably best to wait until the hotfixes are deployed before any concerted effort is made to come up with an answer.
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On December 02 2011 04:56 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 04:55 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On December 02 2011 04:49 Terranasaur wrote:
The other thing we haven't talked about is the HUGE buffs to TF's and Zilean's passives. I mean, come on, the TF passive now buffs your gold from small monsters by 50%!! So if you get 250 cs you get en extra doran item. Sounds great. it's like getting 1 additional creep each wave over your opponent.
Except creep wave gold scales and TF passive doesn't.
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On December 02 2011 05:05 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 04:13 Two_DoWn wrote:
I think that somewhere in their heads Riot thinks they can make the tradeoff between aggression and farming more equal, but honestly, I dont think its possible. Farming will just always be better. And if you can farm safely, why would you bother being an aggressor? Especially if you play someone who can just abuse the other lane, you dont actually ever have to worry about killing them and overextending to do it, you can just be content sending them back to base over and over again cuz health pots dont heal as much anymore. The thing is, you ultimately can't get aggression from both sides of the lane. Either one person can very clearly win a fight between the two (in which case he's the aggressor and the other person is playing defensive), or it's close, and it's not worth the risk to battle it out 1v1. The only time you can ever get a case where two people would battle it out to the death are when either one person misjudged whether or not he can win the fight, or BOTH of them are stupid and fighting when its not really worth the risk. Neither case is going to happen a lot at high levels, simply because people are just better at judging which fights they can win.
Wait, so if we know this, why doesnt riot?
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United States47024 Posts
There are two ways I can see to hit the "aggression" problem, but unfortunately, both probably go against Riot's established design principles:
1) Broaden the spectrum of champions in terms of power curve. More early game dominators and more late-game carries, and make sure that you don't have champs like Riven and Tryndamere that are BOTH early game dominators AND late-game carries. This creates laning situations where the weaker scaling champion has to go aggressive and try to stop the other person's farm, because of how they get outscaled. At the moment, everyone scales too closely, so it's not punishing enough to one side for a matchup to turn into a farmfest.
2) Somehow significantly increase the technical skill requirements in fighting out 1v1s. Make it harder to judge who can win 1v1 situations, simply because of how widely the result can vary based on skill. Lots of 1v1s have very easy-to-predict results because people just right-click each other and press their skills on cooldown, and if it's easy to predict the result, then the guy who knows he's going to lose is obviously going to pussy out. If the results of a given situation can vary more widely, you're more likely to get those scenarios where people fight it out because they think they can win, because the result isn't as clear.
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EPT
