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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 02 2011 05:54 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 05:25 NotSorry wrote:
What are your guys thoughts on weakening tower damage to promote more lane aggression in the earlier stages of the game? Some champs (Lee Sin, nukers, Fizz, ...) would just dive 24/7 then. And don't forget you have a free blink in this game with Flash. Towers are quite good atm. Maybe they should hit creeps a little harder though to make it harder to creep under tower, this way being overpushed would FINALLY be a pain.
You must play only 3 champs if you think being pushed under your turret isn't a pain lol, there are quite a lot of champs(mainly mages) that can't cs that well under turret.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 02 2011 05:50 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 05:38 TheYango wrote:On December 02 2011 05:34 UniversalSnip wrote:
Don't agree, you can make it so that at lower levels the more aggressive player will kill the other one and at higher levels the more aggressive player will constantly send the other one back, THEN start killing him once he's been badly weakened. Either way you get kills, just at a higher level it would take longer because you'd have to cripple your opponent with repeated bluepills. Same result though. And how do you propose doing that without just straight-up increasing the early game damage output that champs can do to each other--which is probably even MORE out of the question from Riot? Same way they've been doing it, reduce the penalties and increase the rewards for hitting people. That's the idea of the creep damage nerf, healing nerfs, potion nerfs, etc. it's still not there but when I started playing a year ago the game was noticeably more passive, especially if you go back and watch tournament games, holy shit they're so boring.
Were we watching the same game? The one where US teams were all playing 1-1-1 + roamer + jungle, and people actually died early game because of level 1 Alistar shenanigans, or because of 3v1 ganks? The one where we'd have 3v3/4v4 teamfights at level 5 because every jungler became dragon-capable at level 4?
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jungle is crap now riot are digging their own grave with such bad patches
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On December 02 2011 04:38 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:What runes/masteries do you run? I am curious. I spec full offensive pretty much. Ganks hurt! Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:19 Bladeorade wrote:On December 01 2011 19:43 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I've been running boots 3 pots Skarnar. I start blue and I get red just as smite comes back up and finish it. I usually clear anywhere from 3min to 3min 30sec depending on how hard the blue leash was.
I almost always get first blood since me and top lane are same level when I gank. (Or bot lane, depends on location.)
I'm unsure on the items to go with skarnar though. I go wiggles mercs warmogs atmas and then GA or Thorn depending. Suggestions? You dont need Wriggles on Skarner. I start boots and being specced into defensive I think my movespeed at level 1 is 388. I go Sheen first, then Mercs. Depending on how the game is going I'll either get Phage then a Defensive item or Defensive Item then Phage. Tri Force is really good on him whether or not you like it. His gap closer is only move speed and flash, and trinity makes his movespeed better, makes his CDs come up faster, increases his damage, and slows his opponents even more (lol.) I usually go Trinity into tanky and my last item (aka I rarely build it) is Gunblade. I like Wits End as my first defensive item because it is so strong and Skarner scales well with attack speed. For armor I prefer Randuins or Frozen Heart. I have not yet seen the need for Warmogs on Skarner. His W being up so often gives him a lot of hidden health.
I run ASpeed marks and quints, flat armor yellows, scaling Mresist blues
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=0-2-0-2-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree2=1-0-3-2-4-0-2-1-0-1-0-3-3-0-0-1&tree3=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&v=2
My mastery tree
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The only SUPER boring part of the tournament scene was when jungles didnt know how to gank the 2v2 ad/support bot lane because no one was used to dodging wards or ganking down the lane. But we fixed that on our own to the point that it is now apparently TOO powerful.
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On December 02 2011 05:55 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 05:54 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 02 2011 05:25 NotSorry wrote:
What are your guys thoughts on weakening tower damage to promote more lane aggression in the earlier stages of the game? Some champs (Lee Sin, nukers, Fizz, ...) would just dive 24/7 then. And don't forget you have a free blink in this game with Flash. Towers are quite good atm. Maybe they should hit creeps a little harder though to make it harder to creep under tower, this way being overpushed would FINALLY be a pain. You must play only 3 champs if you think being pushed under your turret isn't a pain lol, there are quite a lot of champs(mainly mages) that can't cs that well under turret.
youre under the impression towers do anything now
if anything they need a buff
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On December 02 2011 05:55 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 05:54 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 02 2011 05:25 NotSorry wrote:
What are your guys thoughts on weakening tower damage to promote more lane aggression in the earlier stages of the game? Some champs (Lee Sin, nukers, Fizz, ...) would just dive 24/7 then. And don't forget you have a free blink in this game with Flash. Towers are quite good atm. Maybe they should hit creeps a little harder though to make it harder to creep under tower, this way being overpushed would FINALLY be a pain. You must play only 3 champs if you think being pushed under your turret isn't a pain lol, there are quite a lot of champs(mainly mages) that can't cs that well under turret.
Which mage ? Melee are dead with most mages with 1 AA after 2 turret hits, Ranged with 1/2AA after 1 hit. Maybe a few champs can't, then just put in a little AA on creeps before, and kill 1 or 2 with spells to make up for your terribad Aspd. Not really hard.
If melee died in 2 turrets hits, at least letting your opponent push (or getting pushed) would really hurt you and you'd have to act against it.
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Many mages, especially early, require 2 hits + 1/2 tower hits to kill minions. A lot of them start with their AD in the 50s, which is a joke. LB, Ryze, Anivia, etc.
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Towers are good to be strong. It hurts snowballing, and snowballing is bad, makes comebacks less likely.
On a loosely related note, just watched a DotA2 game (HD's, but it doesnt matter), and man that courier was a bad idea. The fact that you can stay in lane for any amount of time (courier + much better hp regens) makes it very easy to snowball, because in LoL even if you force your opponent to go home, you will have to go home sooner or later too, and thats not the case in DotA. Combine it with the weak towers and damaging under tower become much more dangerous, so forcing someone home is more easier.
More snowball, worse game.
Also, i agree with that they should make it harder to cs under tower, but im not exactly sure that making it damage more is a good option, it would affect the time you can stay near the tower without being hit, and the towers would die much slower. I think if they would introduce some "randomism" into the tower damage against minions (which ofc evens out even in short terms), than csing under tower would be extremely hard, but wouldnt effect anything else.
Also2, i was thinking about an efos hero, the death knight, which had only passive skills, and i know that not having active skills make the play a bit boring, but is there any other design flaw with such a champion?
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How about you actually try pressuring the person trying to last hit under the tower instead of trying to convolute the mechanics? It's 100% your own fault if you're sitting their twiddling your thumbs doing nothing while they're last-hitting under the tower. Even if you're one of the handful of champs who can't do much, a lane pushed to tower is open season to go gank somewhere else or back without missing anything.
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On December 02 2011 04:38 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:What runes/masteries do you run? I am curious. I spec full offensive pretty much. Ganks hurt! Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:19 Bladeorade wrote:On December 01 2011 19:43 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I've been running boots 3 pots Skarnar. I start blue and I get red just as smite comes back up and finish it. I usually clear anywhere from 3min to 3min 30sec depending on how hard the blue leash was.
I almost always get first blood since me and top lane are same level when I gank. (Or bot lane, depends on location.)
I'm unsure on the items to go with skarnar though. I go wiggles mercs warmogs atmas and then GA or Thorn depending. Suggestions? You dont need Wriggles on Skarner. I start boots and being specced into defensive I think my movespeed at level 1 is 388. I go Sheen first, then Mercs. Depending on how the game is going I'll either get Phage then a Defensive item or Defensive Item then Phage. Tri Force is really good on him whether or not you like it. His gap closer is only move speed and flash, and trinity makes his movespeed better, makes his CDs come up faster, increases his damage, and slows his opponents even more (lol.) I usually go Trinity into tanky and my last item (aka I rarely build it) is Gunblade. I like Wits End as my first defensive item because it is so strong and Skarner scales well with attack speed. For armor I prefer Randuins or Frozen Heart. I have not yet seen the need for Warmogs on Skarner. His W being up so often gives him a lot of hidden health.
Not hijacking, just offering my opinion as it's very similar to Bladeorade's.
Runes: AD Quints, ASpd Blues, Armor Pen Reds, Flat Armor Yellows
Masteries: Really open to whatever you want. I run 21/0/9 personally it clears very fast, Full clear 3:00, level 4 3:20.
Path: Wolves-->Blue-->Wraiths-->Red-->Minis-->Wolves
Open Regrowth 90% of the time, boots 10%
The I take a shitton of damage build: Philo, boots, HoG, Wits End, Sunfire Cape, Shurelyas, Randuins (finish merc treads where possible)
The I still take quite a bit of damage but also deal some serious deeps: Philo, boots, Sheen---> Triforce, Wits End, Shurelyas, Funfire cape/Gunblade. (Again finish Mercs in there somewhere)
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Did a couple of games as JUNGLE SORAKA recently, its pretty fun. I have been doing 9/2/19 with (offense:ap,cdr,pen) (def:armor) (utility:movement,cdr,mana/vamp). Don't think this is optimal at all but hey 10% cdr. Been using armor reds, armor yellows, flat ap blues, flat ap quints. Start cloth armor at blue and do normal clear. Been leveling up q e q w, though don't know whether to prioritize e or w. Been getting early boots/kindlegem/philo/revolver/deathcap etc. Coming to gank a lane with your op red bananas and your infuse that applies red buff (single target dmg spells apply red buff now) and just spamming starcall does a decent amount of dmg.
Anyway, if any of you try it out and find a better setup please tell me.
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On December 02 2011 05:56 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 05:50 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 02 2011 05:38 TheYango wrote:On December 02 2011 05:34 UniversalSnip wrote:
Don't agree, you can make it so that at lower levels the more aggressive player will kill the other one and at higher levels the more aggressive player will constantly send the other one back, THEN start killing him once he's been badly weakened. Either way you get kills, just at a higher level it would take longer because you'd have to cripple your opponent with repeated bluepills. Same result though. And how do you propose doing that without just straight-up increasing the early game damage output that champs can do to each other--which is probably even MORE out of the question from Riot? Same way they've been doing it, reduce the penalties and increase the rewards for hitting people. That's the idea of the creep damage nerf, healing nerfs, potion nerfs, etc. it's still not there but when I started playing a year ago the game was noticeably more passive, especially if you go back and watch tournament games, holy shit they're so boring. Were we watching the same game? The one where US teams were all playing 1-1-1 + roamer + jungle, and people actually died early game because of level 1 Alistar shenanigans, or because of 3v1 ganks? The one where we'd have 3v3/4v4 teamfights at level 5 because every jungler became dragon-capable at level 4?
actually looking at the dates it was about a year and a half ago, there wasn't a roamer and alistar didn't see any play at all, for whatever reason. Not long after that people figured out doran's stacking and then NOTHING happened until dragon fight.
On December 02 2011 05:52 Craton wrote:
It's almost like people have improved since the beginning of the tournament scene. . .
which if the drift of the thread is correct would make things more passive
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Try to login EUWest, queue goes from 3 mins, reaches 30seconds, jumps to 2:xx minutes, jumps to 7 minutes, jumps to 12 minutes, jumps to 14, 22, 25. Riot is good at counting down.
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On December 02 2011 06:12 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 05:56 TheYango wrote:On December 02 2011 05:50 UniversalSnip wrote:On December 02 2011 05:38 TheYango wrote:On December 02 2011 05:34 UniversalSnip wrote:
Don't agree, you can make it so that at lower levels the more aggressive player will kill the other one and at higher levels the more aggressive player will constantly send the other one back, THEN start killing him once he's been badly weakened. Either way you get kills, just at a higher level it would take longer because you'd have to cripple your opponent with repeated bluepills. Same result though. And how do you propose doing that without just straight-up increasing the early game damage output that champs can do to each other--which is probably even MORE out of the question from Riot? Same way they've been doing it, reduce the penalties and increase the rewards for hitting people. That's the idea of the creep damage nerf, healing nerfs, potion nerfs, etc. it's still not there but when I started playing a year ago the game was noticeably more passive, especially if you go back and watch tournament games, holy shit they're so boring. Were we watching the same game? The one where US teams were all playing 1-1-1 + roamer + jungle, and people actually died early game because of level 1 Alistar shenanigans, or because of 3v1 ganks? The one where we'd have 3v3/4v4 teamfights at level 5 because every jungler became dragon-capable at level 4? actually looking at the dates it was about a year and a half ago, there wasn't a roamer and alistar didn't see any play at all, for whatever reason. Not long after that people figured out doran's stacking and then NOTHING happened until dragon fight. Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 05:52 Craton wrote:
It's almost like people have improved since the beginning of the tournament scene. . . which if the drift of the thread is correct would make things more passive
The problem with that conclusion is that junglers were getting better as well, and they are the only factor in laning that actually bring unpredictability and ganks. Now RIOT just reset all of that. Im not saying that it cant get back to that point in the future, but its going to SUCK to watch pro matches until junglers are strong again.
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On December 02 2011 06:12 UniversalSnip wrote:
which if the drift of the thread is correct would make things more passive
Based on what? That the junglers learned how to gank heavily warded bot lanes? That TP started being used more to force objective fights and sidelane ganks?
Before jungle 0.2, there was a decent amount of ganks throughout scrims/tournys, despite attempts at heavy warding.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 02 2011 06:04 shinarit wrote:
Towers are good to be strong. It hurts snowballing, and snowballing is bad, makes comebacks less likely.
On a loosely related note, just watched a DotA2 game (HD's, but it doesnt matter), and man that courier was a bad idea. The fact that you can stay in lane for any amount of time (courier + much better hp regens) makes it very easy to snowball, because in LoL even if you force your opponent to go home, you will have to go home sooner or later too, and thats not the case in DotA. Combine it with the weak towers and damaging under tower become much more dangerous, so forcing someone home is more easier.
More snowball, worse game.
It's sort of funny how people complain that DotA is too snowbally and that comebacks aren't possible, when I've basically never seen a tournament LoL game where the losing team comes back from having 2 inhibs down (certainly not since the change to minions that made them push much stronger), where I think think of quite a few such competitive DotA games.
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About the minions under turret, you're not going to be able to kill caster minions without taking any harass damage unless you're ranged in which case there's still a very high chance you'll take damage.
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On December 02 2011 06:07 Craton wrote:
How about you actually try pressuring the person trying to last hit under the tower instead of trying to convolute the mechanics? It's 100% your own fault if you're sitting their twiddling your thumbs doing nothing while they're last-hitting under the tower. Even if you're one of the handful of champs who can't do much, a lane pushed to tower is open season to go gank somewhere else or back without missing anything.
If the person can be pressured out easily from under his tower that towers are too weak. Ofc if you can reach him with skills and not get hit by tower than you should do that, but than he positioned himself badly, or you are ranged and he is melee, which is not too common (maybe Kass mid is like this).
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On December 02 2011 06:18 shinarit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 06:07 Craton wrote:
How about you actually try pressuring the person trying to last hit under the tower instead of trying to convolute the mechanics? It's 100% your own fault if you're sitting their twiddling your thumbs doing nothing while they're last-hitting under the tower. Even if you're one of the handful of champs who can't do much, a lane pushed to tower is open season to go gank somewhere else or back without missing anything. If the person can be pressured out easily from under his tower that towers are too weak. Ofc if you can reach him with skills and not get hit by tower than you should do that, but than he positioned himself badly, or you are ranged and he is melee, which is not too common (maybe Kass mid is like this).
Any midlane can get harass on someone trying to cs caster minions under turret without taking damage from turret.
Making turrets stronger also makes pushing the wave bot weaker(push lane, plow down turret).
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EPT
