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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. - Neo, 9:49 KST, Nov 9th |
I don't post here often, but I'd like to just offer my thoughts on the Phoenix Udyr debate. I started using him only after watching Jatt dominate with him in the IEM NY qualifiers. In ~30 games with him I have gone top once and Phoenix jungle the other 29.
On November 08 2011 05:09 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Phoenix Udyr is back to the flavor of the month. Even lane udyr is seeing some phoenix usage now up top ^_^
I think making gold items as jungle udyr is really stupid though. When I play Jungle Udyr I try to be the biggest douche bag possible which means I need to become a threat very quickly. I normally go cloth -> mercs -> Wit's End -> ageis/chain+negatron -> triforce/upgrade defensive items.
I normally try to turn my cloth into an Ageis if the support can't afford one or isn't going to make one. After that I just go pure defensive stats basically instead of making hp since you have turtle. Some games I'll make a randuins with my cloth, but I normally get the Warden's Mail and then just upgrade it into a randuin. Not worth having the HoG if you buy it super late since it's effective for stats. If you're getting bursted down as Udyr something is going wrong. Triforce is my top choice for a second offensive item (aka I ganked and got fed so I make it just after Wit's End) or if I need to exert more pressure later on in the game I'd make it after ageis most likely.
Seeing Hotshot run Phoenix in lane actually intrigued me a lot. I see that build sharing a lot of what made Phoenix superior for jungle - creep clearing. Harass level is probably worse since Tiger's single-target damage is more bursty, but you can mow down creep waves and keep the wave pushed at tower without much effort. Bear stance and good warding, combined with Udyr's natural tankiness, will protect you from ganks.
For the lane Phoenix build, I would for now just mimic Hotshot's build. Boots+3 to open, Phil Stone and HoG next, and then Merc Treads and Spirit Visage. Follow up with Wit's End, then upgrade your GP5 items and either a FoN or Frozen Heart depending on what enemy comp is.
On November 08 2011 05:09 Aurdon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 04:14 JackDino wrote:
So apparently hotshot prefers to play support instead of top but elementz wouldn't agree to it. Elementz is a smart man then. Hotshot is too good off on his own and not very good at just sitting back not farming and babysitting. Hotshot has too many godlevel solo lane champs nid, cho, galio, etc to let him sit back and be support. I don't Elementz has that level of champs that dominate a lane like Hotshot can.
This is a slightly circular line of reasoning. What if Hotshot became good at all those champions because CLG needed him to play top, and thus he was only focused on getting good at top lane champions? I'm assuming that Hotshot is just a flat-out good player, and thus can become good at any role that he practices rigorously.
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I always go RWRE then R>W>E>Q, but I stop leveling E past 3 and just get lvl 5 tiger. You just get sooooo much more damage from max tiger. The increase movement from max bear and lvl 3 bear is noticeable, but not game changing imo
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On November 08 2011 05:16 STS17 wrote:
With all this udyr theorycraft I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the dps increase phoenix gets when maxing tiger over bear. The bonus movespeed from bear is negligible (zeal/triforce or fon should be making up for this, and movespeed quints and masteries plus nimbleness procs) so closing in on a target should never be a problem and once you're there you're stuck to them (hello redbuff / phage) so the movespeed is largely wasted again.
Meanwhile, maxed tiger gives bonus attack speed for faster phoenix procs while phoenix active gives bonus ad to make tiger hurt just a bit more netting you a not insignificant increase in overall damage both in a fight and to towers.
While in theory this is good, how often can you actually afford to dance to two offensive stances in a row on Udyr? Most of the time you're cycling through Turtle, Phoenix, and Bear. You can't really throw a Tiger in there anywhere unless you replace Phoenix (which defeats the purpose of this) or you don't need the Turtle shield. Not needing the turtle shield doesn't happen very often sadly 
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On November 08 2011 05:20 Bona Fide wrote:
This is a slightly circular line of reasoning. What if Hotshot became good at all those champions because CLG needed him to play top, and thus he was only focused on getting good at top lane champions? I'm assuming that Hotshot is just a flat-out good player, and thus can become good at any role that he practices rigorously.
Given that Elementz is easily the worst player on the team, you want him in the role that has the smallest effect on the game.
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On November 08 2011 05:21 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 05:16 STS17 wrote:
With all this udyr theorycraft I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the dps increase phoenix gets when maxing tiger over bear. The bonus movespeed from bear is negligible (zeal/triforce or fon should be making up for this, and movespeed quints and masteries plus nimbleness procs) so closing in on a target should never be a problem and once you're there you're stuck to them (hello redbuff / phage) so the movespeed is largely wasted again.
Meanwhile, maxed tiger gives bonus attack speed for faster phoenix procs while phoenix active gives bonus ad to make tiger hurt just a bit more netting you a not insignificant increase in overall damage both in a fight and to towers. While in theory this is good, how often can you actually afford to dance to two offensive stances in a row on Udyr? Most of the time you're cycling through Turtle, Phoenix, and Bear. You can't really throw a Tiger in there anywhere unless you replace Phoenix (which defeats the purpose of this) or you don't need the Turtle shield. Not needing the turtle shield doesn't happen very often sadly
in fights I personally just spam RWQ in that order and put a bear stance in there every 6 seconds when the stun rotation wears off.
I build a ton of cdr through frozen heart, spirit visage, and maybe randuins, so my cooldowns are low enough for me to spam shit without much downtime.
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I think CLG should let the Chauster/jiji switch settle before they change Elementz and Hotshot around. In recent tournaments with Chauster and jiji slumping Hotshot has probably been their most clutch player (or saint). I'm not sure Elementz is at that level. Although I will say that from the couple of times I've watched Elementz stream he does seem to prefer those tanky DPS solo top champions so maybe it'd be up his alley. Although I really doubt Elementz could win top lane the way Hotshot can.
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To be fair, I actually think solo top is the easiest role in the game. All you really need to do is just sit there and get a billion cs. Not all that difficult, especially if you have a top tier jungle to help keep you alive. Support requires far more teamwork and coordination, as well as general map awareness.
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It really depends whether CLG actually trusts Elementz to play top lane. It's not particularly difficult but on the flip side, having a losing top lane is probably one of most unrecoverable situations.
I don't really know how good Elementz actually IS at solotop, but imagine him going solotop vs like Voyboy Jax ...game could be lost on that alone if he chokes it.
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I got Udyr, played him for a while. After playing Skarner (both pre- and post-buffs), I have to say that everything Skarner does, Udyr does better, except for his ult. Better shield, better MS boost, better CC (auto stun > AoE slow), better AoE (Phoenix does way more damage than Slash and Fracture). The only thing Skarner has over him is the Ult, which is very niche.
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On November 08 2011 05:26 Two_DoWn wrote:
To be fair, I actually think solo top is the easiest role in the game. All you really need to do is just sit there and get a billion cs. Not all that difficult, especially if you have a top tier jungle to help keep you alive. Support requires far more teamwork and coordination, as well as general map awareness.
solo top tends to be your mid-late game initiator. that shit is stressful, so you can blow me sir, lol.
seriously, ranged AD has always seemed like hands down the easiest shit in this game to me. you just farm all laning phase, sit in the back all teamfight phase and shoot w/e gets close enough to you. I guess maybe it's kinda mechanically challenging to click on the right thing and kite when necessary, but ranged carry decision making seems so damn easy.
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On November 08 2011 05:16 STS17 wrote:
With all this udyr theorycraft I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the dps increase phoenix gets when maxing tiger over bear. The bonus movespeed from bear is negligible (zeal/triforce or fon should be making up for this, and movespeed quints and masteries plus nimbleness procs) so closing in on a target should never be a problem and once you're there you're stuck to them (hello redbuff / phage) so the movespeed is largely wasted again.
Meanwhile, maxed tiger gives bonus attack speed for faster phoenix procs while phoenix active gives bonus ad to make tiger hurt just a bit more netting you a not insignificant increase in overall damage both in a fight and to towers.
It kinda seems like that, but when you actually play Udyr you'll see that you will almost never use both pheonix and tiger consecutively for it to be useful as you are suggesting. You are going to go in with bear and stun, then turn on either pheonix and tiger, and then you have time to activate one more stance before going back to bear to stun again. Seeing as how as Udyr you are going to be in the middle of the enemy team to dive their squishy carries, you are almost always going to be using bear, turtle, and tiger or pheonix as your 3stance rotations in a fight. Even with movespeed quints and nimbleness it's always good to have tons of movespeed as Udyr anyway even besides the fact that you almost always will not be using tiger and pheonix at the same time, so taking both tiger and pheonix before you max out one of them and bear and turtle just really isn't as useful as it might seem.
edit: also, 6% movespeed is a lot. It is definitely not "negligible", especially on a champ like Udyr.
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On November 08 2011 05:25 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 05:21 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 08 2011 05:16 STS17 wrote:
With all this udyr theorycraft I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the dps increase phoenix gets when maxing tiger over bear. The bonus movespeed from bear is negligible (zeal/triforce or fon should be making up for this, and movespeed quints and masteries plus nimbleness procs) so closing in on a target should never be a problem and once you're there you're stuck to them (hello redbuff / phage) so the movespeed is largely wasted again.
Meanwhile, maxed tiger gives bonus attack speed for faster phoenix procs while phoenix active gives bonus ad to make tiger hurt just a bit more netting you a not insignificant increase in overall damage both in a fight and to towers. While in theory this is good, how often can you actually afford to dance to two offensive stances in a row on Udyr? Most of the time you're cycling through Turtle, Phoenix, and Bear. You can't really throw a Tiger in there anywhere unless you replace Phoenix (which defeats the purpose of this) or you don't need the Turtle shield. Not needing the turtle shield doesn't happen very often sadly in fights I personally just spam RWQ in that order and put a bear stance in there every 6 seconds when the stun rotation wears off. I build a ton of cdr through frozen heart, spirit visage, and maybe randuins, so my cooldowns are low enough for me to spam shit without much downtime.
Unless you're just using the Phoenix for the aoe (aka not getting the 3 hit proc) there's no way you can dance that fast and fit in bear procs. I suppose Tiger would be situationally more useful if your intention is to burst somebody with the dot, but even with cdr I'm not sure how the numbers line up. Theoretically you could hit four stances every bear stun rotation, but I'm not sure how that would turn out in practice.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
jungler is hardest, then top, then mid, then support, then ranged ad
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nah inept didn't you see that interview where SYDTKO said jungling is the second easiest role in the game after support
rofl
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On November 08 2011 05:38 AwayFromLife wrote:
I got Udyr, played him for a while. After playing Skarner (both pre- and post-buffs), I have to say that everything Skarner does, Udyr does better, except for his ult. Better shield, better MS boost, better CC (auto stun > AoE slow), better AoE (Phoenix does way more damage than Slash and Fracture). The only thing Skarner has over him is the Ult, which is very niche.
Eh, I think Skarner is more fun. Rather than stance dance and auto, you get to spam things and drag people around. I will admit that I think (and is pretty obvious) that Udyr's damage and healing is better, but I think the burst you get from Skarner's Q spam shouldn't be overlooked.
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On November 08 2011 05:59 dnastyx wrote:
nah inept didn't you see that interview where SYDTKO said jungling is the second easiest role in the game after support
rofl
SYDTKO also said he doesn't understand why you'd play any ranged carry other than Caitlyn, lol.
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On November 08 2011 06:03 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 05:59 dnastyx wrote:
nah inept didn't you see that interview where SYDTKO said jungling is the second easiest role in the game after support
rofl SYDTKO also said he doesn't understand why you'd play any ranged carry other than Caitlyn, lol.
Well, why would you? Cait es #1, always shoot never die huehuehuehue
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On November 08 2011 05:53 Brees wrote:
jungler is hardest, then top, then mid, then support, then ranged ad
How to start a flame war :-).
But seriously, I think Jungling has the highest immediate learning curve, but judging by the top ranks I'd say that mastering a role is similarly difficult to mastering any other role. But with junglers and mids, particularly, skill deficiencies are most notable. It's hard to tell a good support from a bad support unless you are the Ad they are helping. It all looks the same to a busy top/jungle/mid. If only more wannabe solos realized you literally win the game (Ryze excluded) by your last hitting...
I think Phoenix Udyr is much more powerful than people realize up until the late game and is just underused, even at the pro level. Once you get blue buff, you can bear stance dance across the map so fast. I seriously think we are going to see more and more counter-jungling from top players in general, and especially with Udyr as people learn to avoid the flash-stun danger. The game is just still so new, I think all junglers are going to expand dramatically, he is just a particular obvious example.
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fnatic are trolling shushei and keep picking him cho'gath :p
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On November 08 2011 04:59 arcfyr wrote:
Is tiger Udyr unpopular/bad nowadays? I'm getting back into playing after a semi-long hiatus, and Udyr is one of those champions I used to play but haven't. I played tiger jungle, but it seems like 90% of people play phoenix now.
tiger controls buffs/objectives better, and is a better ganker
phoenix controls the enemy jungle harder, and is a better teamfighter
tiger is a squishier more assassin-type role
phoenix is pretty much pure tank
tiger is a better duelist
phoenix is a faster jungle
purely a matter of what your team needs and your style of play. phoenix is not objectively better, it's just more popular now
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EPT
