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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. - Neo, 9:49 KST, Nov 9th |
On November 08 2011 03:18 TheKefka wrote:
A question for all you phoenix udyr junglers.Do you get a point in Tiger stance at lvl 8,10 or not at all?
I know saint doesn't get it at all until the end at lvl 16 but I feel like taking a point in tigers really helps your ganks at lvl 8 by precharging tigers for the dot and than punching people in the face in bear and just proceed to hit them with phoenix.Any thoughts?
I personally go R W R E R E R E R E E Q Q Q Q Q W W or stg like that. I don't see why you would MAX turtle, it's close to useless in teamfights, and you don't need it for ganks and jungle.
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I wish they would rework Leblanc's E. It's not a weak skill but it's a skill that makes Leblanc all the more bullshit in 1v1 encounters while also a skill the exacerbates her weakness in large-scale combats.
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On November 08 2011 03:52 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 03:18 TheKefka wrote:
A question for all you phoenix udyr junglers.Do you get a point in Tiger stance at lvl 8,10 or not at all?
I know saint doesn't get it at all until the end at lvl 16 but I feel like taking a point in tigers really helps your ganks at lvl 8 by precharging tigers for the dot and than punching people in the face in bear and just proceed to hit them with phoenix.Any thoughts? I personally go R W R E R E R E R E E Q Q Q Q Q W W or stg like that. I don't see why you would MAX turtle, it's close to useless in teamfights, and you don't need it for ganks and jungle.
phoenix turtle phoenix bear
phoenix > turtle >= bear > tiger
for the mostpart. the movespeed gains on leveling up bear aren't really equal to the shield gains from leveling up turtle. high level turtle is key to mini-skirmishes because having a (100 or whatever) HP shield on a 5s cooldown makes you invincible to everything but high amounts of burst
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why do people at 1600 elo still leave ranked games? I dont understand.
An ezreal got first blooded at lvl 1 and him and lvl 1 soraka left the game immediately..
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On November 08 2011 03:52 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 03:18 TheKefka wrote:
A question for all you phoenix udyr junglers.Do you get a point in Tiger stance at lvl 8,10 or not at all?
I know saint doesn't get it at all until the end at lvl 16 but I feel like taking a point in tigers really helps your ganks at lvl 8 by precharging tigers for the dot and than punching people in the face in bear and just proceed to hit them with phoenix.Any thoughts? I personally go R W R E R E R E R E E Q Q Q Q Q W W or stg like that. I don't see why you would MAX turtle, it's close to useless in teamfights, and you don't need it for ganks and jungle.
What? This is totally wrong. You should always max turtle immediately after pheonix with 1 point in bear at level 4. It is not useless in teamfights. The lifesteal and mana on turtle is actually totally useless except pretty much on lane udyr, however the shield activation is what makes you tanky. You should spam it whever on cooldown. The correct way to enter a teamfight as udyr is W E W R. You run in with turtle, stun with bear, hit the second turtle and then R for damage. Once R is up you get the activation damage and 24 AD and 48 AP so once you get the third hit proc thats when you want to switch to turtle again.
This is somewhat theorycrafty sometimes you have to W E R W R but you should be trying to maximise your turtle stances. Turtle stance is what gives udyr the longevity he has since if you are constantly taking small amounts of damage (udyr is not the best for tanking burst damage but you just need to be tanky enough not to get focused down and then don't initiate ahead of your team like a galio or amumu would) turtle shield is essentially a massive amount of health regen.
As for the tiger question. Sometimes I get 3 points in bear and max tiger. The reason I only get tiger at the end is because it's better lategame than pheonix and lategame you a: have less situations where you attack targets for a long time, meaning the tiger proc does more damage than pheonix activation, b: tiger scales damage better so for killing tanks it's more useful.
Turtle stance is 220 health shield on a 6 second cooldown so with a bit of CDR (blue buff, shurelyas, spirit visage, frozen heart) its potentially over 220 hp/5 regeneration + you can use it at the start when going in to over charge your health by 200.
If I feel I'm mostly going after squishies I'll just max out bear for the longer duration of movement speed but even then I'm not totally convinced. If you're going trinity it might be worth just maxing Q late because it provides significant burst and the Q R Q combo is insane with sheen procs.
You lose 100 damage and 20% attack speed for going 3 points in tiger over 5. You lose 6% movement speed and 1 second of duration for going 3 in bear over 5. The 6% movement speed and 1 second duration is less important if you have trinity though, since movement speed doesn't scale too well and you mostly use bear for the stun.
Precharging it at level 8 is an interesting idea though, but I'm very hesistant to lose the shield strength. Thing is the tiger dot is only 30+1.5 x AD at level 1 so it's not that huge. I actually precharge my ganks with turtle shield to get my passive rolling and to increase my options if I happen to take damage. If I get counter ganked, or want to tower dive, or I'm ganking an AP carry//renekton, having that precharge shield will make it much harder to kill me and if I survive a couple seconds longer thanks to that turtle shield, the CD for the next will be up again and it snowballs like that.
The difference between level 9 udyr with 100 strength is fucking massive compared to level 12 udyr with 220 strength. That's one reason why farm is so important on udyr. If you get those few extra levels you're vastly more powerful and winning teamfights that early can snowball your lead in XP and gold.
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So apparently hotshot prefers to play support instead of top but elementz wouldn't agree to it.
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The main problem with grabbing points in tiger is that it doesnt scale with anything you are going to get on Phoenix udyr, except for the phage portion of triforce if you go that route. Max Phoenix first because it deals the damages, tiger second because once it hits level 5 you are basically invincible, then Bear because tiger sucks if you dont have ad, which you wont because you want aspeed for Phoenix.
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I bet hotshot would want top again after 3 games, lol.
For more udyr theorycraft, trinity force is great for both pheonix and tiger udyr;
For pheonix:
Movement and slow are insanely important to pheonix udyr since you have no burst damage you need to chase and stay next to the target for at least 3 hits and 5 seconds
Sheen insanely useful since you get some damage out of using W and E a lot which you need to.
AP useful for your turtle shield and your pheonix stance even if only slightly.
30% attack speed since it's your main stat.
the 30 AD and 15% crit are less useful, but the 30 ad especially is still very strong when you have wits end and 3 stacks of passive for 85% increased attack speed with AS reds.
For tiger:
The AD and crit stack insanely well with the attack speed on your Q
The sheen means your Q E Q combo hits like a truck and you don't need to do any more.
And obviously the movement and slow are useful on tiger, as is the attack speed and AP but less so. Both benefit well from hp and mana.
This means a lategame trinity basically converges pheonix and tiger udyr to a similar strength, it's weird. Your other 4000 gold damage item option is bloodrazor, it means you're probably going to transition to mostly using tiger though, but the wits end+BR combo is redonckulous with tiger udyr. Still strong with pheonix though. You can get the second recurve bow while using pheonix and when you complete it you should have maxed out tiger.
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On November 08 2011 04:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
The main problem with grabbing points in tiger is that it doesnt scale with anything you are going to get on Phoenix udyr, except for the phage portion of triforce if you go that route. Max Phoenix first because it deals the damages, turtle second because once it hits level 5 you are basically invincible, then Bear because tiger sucks if you dont have ad, which you wont because you want aspeed for Phoenix.
Yea I agree with everything,except I'm not yet sure on that one potential point in tigers at lvl 10 in particular. Just feels, every time I take it,that it is so worth it.
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On November 08 2011 04:14 JackDino wrote:
So apparently hotshot prefers to play support instead of top but elementz wouldn't agree to it.
For tournaments? :O
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On November 08 2011 04:15 Slayer91 wrote:
I bet hotshot would want top again after 3 games, lol.
For more udyr theorycraft, trinity force is great for both pheonix and tiger udyr;
For pheonix:
Movement and slow are insanely important to pheonix udyr since you have no burst damage you need to chase and stay next to the target for at least 3 hits and 5 seconds
Sheen insanely useful since you get some damage out of using W and E a lot which you need to.
AP useful for your turtle shield and your pheonix stance even if only slightly.
30% attack speed since it's your main stat.
the 30 AD and 15% crit are less useful, but the 30 ad especially is still very strong when you have wits end and 3 stacks of passive for 85% increased attack speed with AS reds.
For tiger:
The AD and crit stack insanely well with the attack speed on your Q
The sheen means your Q E Q combo hits like a truck and you don't need to do any more.
And obviously the movement and slow are useful on tiger, as is the attack speed and AP but less so. Both benefit well from hp and mana.
This means a lategame trinity basically converges pheonix and tiger udyr to a similar strength, it's weird. Your other 4000 gold damage item option is bloodrazor, it means you're probably going to transition to mostly using tiger though, but the wits end+BR combo is redonckulous with tiger udyr. Still strong with pheonix though. You can get the second recurve bow while using pheonix and when you complete it you should have maxed out tiger.
So basically you play udyr late game as a tank killer?
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Absolutely not he's generally very, very bad against tanks at least in pheonix stance. (as in taking them down fast, in terms of killing them he excels since he can tank them forever, but we're trying to save our squishies here!) Tiger stance maxing and madreds bloodrazor I consider emergency weapons if they have bruisers that are causing problems.
Trinity force is actually a weapon which excels at taking down squishies more than anything. It gives chasing power and burst damage which is exactly what you need.
My core on udyr is something like mercs, philo, hog, wits end. Then I get something like shurleyas/randuins/fon for defense and trinity for offense and then reactive items like frozen heart, thornmail, aegis, bloodrazor (replaces wits end super late), spirit visage (vs heavy heavy AP), qss ( supression).
Whether you go trinity or triple defense items after core depends on the other 9 players and your own personal farm, and you use your best judgement.
Philo stone is something I don't see the highest level udyr players get right now, jatt doesn't even get hog, however I feel like it gives me longer term map roaming potential so I can counter jungle and clear my own jungle while still being able to gank without worrying about dying (being low mana, or low health on udyr makes you vulnerable, while full health and full mana udyr is almost unkillable). Jatt and saint seem to take blues a lot while I'm expected to give every blue except the first to AP carry so I feel like I need the philo. In terms of cost effectiveness either I save buying potions or I save ganking without full health and shurelyas is a fantastic item to complete when philo mostly pays for itself. Hog is something I get because I want randuins and having more health lets me tower dive and do more ballsy shit early on. Sometimes I delay them for recurve bow though.
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On November 08 2011 03:52 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 03:18 TheKefka wrote:
A question for all you phoenix udyr junglers.Do you get a point in Tiger stance at lvl 8,10 or not at all?
I know saint doesn't get it at all until the end at lvl 16 but I feel like taking a point in tigers really helps your ganks at lvl 8 by precharging tigers for the dot and than punching people in the face in bear and just proceed to hit them with phoenix.Any thoughts? I personally go R W R E R E R E R E E Q Q Q Q Q W W or stg like that. I don't see why you would MAX turtle, it's close to useless in teamfights, and you don't need it for ganks and jungle.
Woah wut. Turtle is amazing. Probably Udyr's best skill. It makes him ridiculously tanky when used right. I like to grab some cdr with Frozen Heart and Spirit Visage. It makes all my skills on like a 3 second cooldown. With cdr, Udyr's turtle stance at max level is basically like a 220 hp heal every 3-4 seconds. That's a ridiculous amount of tankiness and you practically never ever die.
In lategame teamfights, I find that depending on how your team comp works out, you can either dive enemy squishies and put on an extreme amount of pressure because with Bear you fuck up and chase carries very well and Wit's End and Phoenix/Tiger you do amazing dps while being unkillable due to Turtle. Or you can act as a very strong peel for carries. Bear Stance stun is really really helpful in helping your support keep your carry alive. Lategame Udyr can do whatever the fuck he wants because he has respectable damage output with Phoenix/Tiger, unkillability with Turtle, and great utility with Bear.
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Is tiger Udyr unpopular/bad nowadays? I'm getting back into playing after a semi-long hiatus, and Udyr is one of those champions I used to play but haven't. I played tiger jungle, but it seems like 90% of people play phoenix now.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 08 2011 03:52 mr_tolkien wrote:
I personally go R W R E R E R E R E E Q Q Q Q Q W W or stg like that. I don't see why you would MAX turtle, it's close to useless in teamfights, and you don't need it for ganks and jungle.
Turtle is INSANE survivability in teamfights. It is by no means useless.
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On November 08 2011 04:59 arcfyr wrote:
Is tiger Udyr unpopular/bad nowadays? I'm getting back into playing after a semi-long hiatus, and Udyr is one of those champions I used to play but haven't. I played tiger jungle, but it seems like 90% of people play phoenix now.
It's alright in solo top from what I hear, but Phoenix clears Jungle way faster.
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Phoenix Udyr is back to the flavor of the month. Even lane udyr is seeing some phoenix usage now up top ^_^
I think making gold items as jungle udyr is really stupid though. When I play Jungle Udyr I try to be the biggest douche bag possible which means I need to become a threat very quickly. I normally go cloth -> mercs -> Wit's End -> ageis/chain+negatron -> triforce/upgrade defensive items.
I normally try to turn my cloth into an Ageis if the support can't afford one or isn't going to make one. After that I just go pure defensive stats basically instead of making hp since you have turtle. Some games I'll make a randuins with my cloth, but I normally get the Warden's Mail and then just upgrade it into a randuin. Not worth having the HoG if you buy it super late since it's effective for stats. If you're getting bursted down as Udyr something is going wrong. Triforce is my top choice for a second offensive item (aka I ganked and got fed so I make it just after Wit's End) or if I need to exert more pressure later on in the game I'd make it after ageis most likely.
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On November 08 2011 04:14 JackDino wrote:
So apparently hotshot prefers to play support instead of top but elementz wouldn't agree to it.
Elementz is a smart man then. Hotshot is too good off on his own and not very good at just sitting back not farming and babysitting. Hotshot has too many godlevel solo lane champs nid, cho, galio, etc to let him sit back and be support. I don't Elementz has that level of champs that dominate a lane like Hotshot can.
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With all this udyr theorycraft I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the dps increase phoenix gets when maxing tiger over bear. The bonus movespeed from bear is negligible (zeal/triforce or fon should be making up for this, and movespeed quints and masteries plus nimbleness procs) so closing in on a target should never be a problem and once you're there you're stuck to them (hello redbuff / phage) so the movespeed is largely wasted again.
Meanwhile, maxed tiger gives bonus attack speed for faster phoenix procs while phoenix active gives bonus ad to make tiger hurt just a bit more netting you a not insignificant increase in overall damage both in a fight and to towers.
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On November 08 2011 05:09 Aurdon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 04:14 JackDino wrote:
So apparently hotshot prefers to play support instead of top but elementz wouldn't agree to it. Elementz is a smart man then. Hotshot is too good off on his own and not very good at just sitting back not farming and babysitting. Hotshot has too many godlevel solo lane champs nid, cho, galio, etc to let him sit back and be support. I don't Elementz has that level of champs that dominate a lane like Hotshot can.
More like HSGG's support is hysterical. Pick Taric, take red buff.
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EPT
