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On April 29 2011 10:07 Juicyfruit wrote:
Saying morde doesn't scale is just a slap to the face. What do you think that passive shield is?
Ok so I don't play Morde so I forgot about that component of his scaling. I'm too lazy to figure out how much that's actually worth at the moment so we can take him out of my last post.
I really don't see a clear argument that the supports don't scale well with items though when you compare to the rest of the champs. They obviously don't have amazing AP scaling (you don't have ratios like Malzahar or anything) but it's not terrible.
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I'm pretty sure "support" champions like Janna and Alistar are accidents. Riot's original intentions were never to have 3 solo farm lanes (or even 2 for that matter).
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On April 29 2011 10:13 Juicyfruit wrote:
I'm pretty sure "support" champions like Janna and Alistar are accidents. Riot's original intentions were never to have 3 solo farm lanes (or even 2 for that matter).
They definitely planned to have jungling in the game, otherwise there wouldn't have been a champion like Warwick.
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On April 29 2011 11:04 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 10:13 Juicyfruit wrote:
I'm pretty sure "support" champions like Janna and Alistar are accidents. Riot's original intentions were never to have 3 solo farm lanes (or even 2 for that matter). They definitely planned to have jungling in the game, otherwise there wouldn't have been a champion like Warwick.
lol, no. People just realized that ww COULD jungle, and then began trying out if other champs could and to see if it was optimal or not. Things like that become standard so then balance/new champs begin to revolve around such things.
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On April 29 2011 11:09 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 11:04 Shikyo wrote:On April 29 2011 10:13 Juicyfruit wrote:
I'm pretty sure "support" champions like Janna and Alistar are accidents. Riot's original intentions were never to have 3 solo farm lanes (or even 2 for that matter). They definitely planned to have jungling in the game, otherwise there wouldn't have been a champion like Warwick. lol, no. People just realized that ww COULD jungle, and then began trying out if other champs could and to see if it was optimal or not. Things like that become standard so then balance/new champs begin to revolve around such things.
Warwick definitely is designed for jungling, look at his skillset.
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What I mean is, they didn't expect devoted jungling to become undisputed meta, and more like a choice that a team could field.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
1. Fixed a bug where Alistar's Headbutt would lock him out of spells for the duration and a short period afterward.
2. Fixed a bug where Raise Morale would break nearby enemy spell shields.
3. Fixed a bug where Raise Morale would reveal Gangplank to nearby enemy champions.
4. Fixed a bug where Kayle's Reckoning was not showing the animation, and would not be castable again until after you attacked.
5. Fixed a few bugs where Rumble's ultimate was sometimes not showing properly related to fog of war. EDIT: Also fixed some team color bugs.
EDIT: We were unable to get the blue Longhorn Alistar bug fixed in this server-side hotfix. I'm not sure if we will be hotfixing this subsequently, or fixing in the next patch.
Alistar players, your Q-W combo is back. Enjoy.
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=8360794
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Obviously not an alistar player. It's W-Q.
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Hey that's how I play ali. Stun and then knocking them away with a trollface on es best.
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I'm pretty sure "support" champions like Janna and Alistar are accidents. Riot's original intentions were never to have 3 solo farm lanes (or even 2 for that matter).
Have to say I'm pretty happy with it. Farming is so much stronger than fighting in lane, it's really boring. There just isn't enough ganking without a roamer.
If I were them I'd look at nerfing health potions and creep gold. Passivity is so dull and so strong.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 29 2011 10:13 Juicyfruit wrote:
I'm pretty sure "support" champions like Janna and Alistar are accidents. Riot's original intentions were never to have 3 solo farm lanes (or even 2 for that matter).
I agree, I'm pretty sure that was one of the things from DotA they were trying to get away from.
Of course, I would argue that it's something that's really hard to get away from design-wise. Even if you get rid of the super farm-independent champs, people go to the next most farm-independent ones. All the champs have to be REALLY similar on gold-dependence for split-farm duo lanes to work. It's just too hard to manage farm splits other than "one person gets everything" or "everyone gets what they can" in a duo lane, so unless both duo laners are super-close on farm-dependence it'll just end up as one person takes all.
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On April 29 2011 15:18 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 10:13 Juicyfruit wrote:
I'm pretty sure "support" champions like Janna and Alistar are accidents. Riot's original intentions were never to have 3 solo farm lanes (or even 2 for that matter). I agree, I'm pretty sure that was one of the things from DotA they were trying to get away from. Of course, I would argue that it's something that's really hard to get away from design-wise. Even if you get rid of the super farm-independent champs, people go to the next most farm-independent ones. All the champs have to be REALLY similar on gold-dependence for split-farm duo lanes to work. It's just too hard to manage farm splits other than "one person gets everything" or "everyone gets what they can" in a duo lane, so unless both duo laners are super-close on farm-dependence it'll just end up as one person takes all.
I don't see that as an issue. You have champs that want all the gold, carries and to a lesser extent tanks, and you have those that don't, supports and roamers.
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On April 29 2011 11:17 Juicyfruit wrote:
What I mean is, they didn't expect devoted jungling to become undisputed meta, and more like a choice that a team could field.
Yep, and in fact they've said that they want to make jungling less mandatory, and the recent boost to XP for two people in a lane shows that.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 29 2011 16:15 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 11:17 Juicyfruit wrote:
What I mean is, they didn't expect devoted jungling to become undisputed meta, and more like a choice that a team could field. Yep, and in fact they've said that they want to make jungling less mandatory, and the recent boost to XP for two people in a lane shows that.
I think that change sort of misses the mark on why jungling is mandatory.
Compare LoL to other games in the genre like HoN and DotA. Why is jungling mandatory here as opposed to in those games? It actually has nothing to do with duo lanes IMO--because those games see 3-solo setups, with or without jungles. A jungler isn't replacing having a duo laner, a jungler is replacing having a second roamer--effectively trading some map control and gank time for some time to level up on creeps in the jungle.
IMO the main aspect of jungling in LoL that makes it mandatory is Sigil/big monster control. In DotA, the sigils aren't attached to creeps, so anyone can pick them up. By contrast, in order to take the buffs early game in a safe and timely fashion in LoL, you basically need a jungler to do it. Anyone else doing a buff camp levels 1-3 will either waste too much time or get too low. And as everyone knows, those buffs are STRONG. Having one of your "roamers" capable of ganking with one or both buffs is a huge boon to your team.
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On April 29 2011 17:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 16:15 MythicalMage wrote:On April 29 2011 11:17 Juicyfruit wrote:
What I mean is, they didn't expect devoted jungling to become undisputed meta, and more like a choice that a team could field. Yep, and in fact they've said that they want to make jungling less mandatory, and the recent boost to XP for two people in a lane shows that. I think that change sort of misses the mark on why jungling is mandatory. Compare LoL to other games in the genre like HoN and DotA. Why is jungling mandatory here as opposed to in those games? It actually has nothing to do with duo lanes IMO--because those games see 3-solo setups, with or without jungles. A jungler isn't replacing having a duo laner, a jungler is replacing having a second roamer--effectively trading some map control and gank time for some time to level up on creeps in the jungle. IMO the main aspect of jungling in LoL that makes it mandatory is Sigil/big monster control. In DotA, the sigils aren't attached to creeps, so anyone can pick them up. By contrast, in order to take the buffs early game in a safe and timely fashion in LoL, you basically need a jungler to do it. Anyone else doing a buff camp levels 1-3 will either waste too much time or get too low. And as everyone knows, those buffs are STRONG. Having one of your "roamers" capable of ganking with one or both buffs is a huge boon to your team.
creep pulling pretty much is jungling
I think maybe jungling in the sense you're thinking of got killed about the same time the ability of couriers to ward was removed? Anyway I think it was mandatory back when the games were all 60 minutes + at high levels, because jungling had really high gold/xp values, and then that got nerfed.
I think. Don't know a lot about dota, maybe misremembering.
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On April 29 2011 17:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 16:15 MythicalMage wrote:On April 29 2011 11:17 Juicyfruit wrote:
What I mean is, they didn't expect devoted jungling to become undisputed meta, and more like a choice that a team could field. Yep, and in fact they've said that they want to make jungling less mandatory, and the recent boost to XP for two people in a lane shows that. I think that change sort of misses the mark on why jungling is mandatory. Compare LoL to other games in the genre like HoN and DotA. Why is jungling mandatory here as opposed to in those games? It actually has nothing to do with duo lanes IMO--because those games see 3-solo setups, with or without jungles. A jungler isn't replacing having a duo laner, a jungler is replacing having a second roamer--effectively trading some map control and gank time for some time to level up on creeps in the jungle. IMO the main aspect of jungling in LoL that makes it mandatory is Sigil/big monster control. In DotA, the sigils aren't attached to creeps, so anyone can pick them up. By contrast, in order to take the buffs early game in a safe and timely fashion in LoL, you basically need a jungler to do it. Anyone else doing a buff camp levels 1-3 will either waste too much time or get too low. And as everyone knows, those buffs are STRONG. Having one of your "roamers" capable of ganking with one or both buffs is a huge boon to your team.
In DotA there's a lot more CC, heroes can be bursted down significantly more quickly, and it's much easier for a dual lane to utterly trash a solo. I haven't played in bit, but for a while setting up devastating trilanes was the thing to do because you could really pound people down for having the audacity to even come near the creeps. No way in hell that would ever fly in LoL.
Also, there was no problem with letting your supports, like Lion, get a shit ton of farm and kills because then they would literally just run around raping face all day and their carry was never ever safe because of TPs and Travels your murderous beast (could be ANYONE, really; Venge, Lion, Lina, Centaur, Void) could be anywhere and everywhere.
Also you can TP to towers and deny creeps, which really changes laning and roaming dynamics.
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On April 29 2011 17:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 16:15 MythicalMage wrote:On April 29 2011 11:17 Juicyfruit wrote:
What I mean is, they didn't expect devoted jungling to become undisputed meta, and more like a choice that a team could field. Yep, and in fact they've said that they want to make jungling less mandatory, and the recent boost to XP for two people in a lane shows that. I think that change sort of misses the mark on why jungling is mandatory. Compare LoL to other games in the genre like HoN and DotA. Why is jungling mandatory here as opposed to in those games? It actually has nothing to do with duo lanes IMO--because those games see 3-solo setups, with or without jungles. A jungler isn't replacing having a duo laner, a jungler is replacing having a second roamer--effectively trading some map control and gank time for some time to level up on creeps in the jungle. IMO the main aspect of jungling in LoL that makes it mandatory is Sigil/big monster control. In DotA, the sigils aren't attached to creeps, so anyone can pick them up. By contrast, in order to take the buffs early game in a safe and timely fashion in LoL, you basically need a jungler to do it. Anyone else doing a buff camp levels 1-3 will either waste too much time or get too low. And as everyone knows, those buffs are STRONG. Having one of your "roamers" capable of ganking with one or both buffs is a huge boon to your team.
Your analysis is completely wrong. The reason why HoN/DotA run 1-1-3 lanes is because the 3 lane can stack creeps in jungle and deny the lane, establishing near full control + allowing for pressure on midlane. Because of how HoN/DotA carries work, a slight advantage leads to lane control, which leads to denies, which leads to larger lane control. Since nukes don't scale into mid or endgame, a single hero can 'carry' in the true sense by having gold actively funneled to him. Many heros, additionally, only need 1-2 items to reach their 'effective' stage in fights.
The amount of gold a proper ancient stack with HotD can give you is crazy. Proper jungle stacking, additionally, makes every single jungle camp a potentially huge windfall in terms of cash and gold.What's more, baron is a pretty trash buff in comparison to having an extra life on a real carry. Think being gifted an IE at 24 minutes if you kept a certain area of the map safe for the majority of the game.
So no, its not buff control that makes the metas different. Its how heros snowball and the crushing effect of denies on a losing lane.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 29 2011 20:06 L wrote:
Your analysis is completely wrong. The reason why HoN/DotA run 1-1-3 lanes is because the 3 lane can stack creeps in jungle and deny the lane, establishing near full control + allowing for pressure on midlane. Because of how HoN/DotA carries work, a slight advantage leads to lane control, which leads to denies, which leads to larger lane control. Since nukes don't scale into mid or endgame, a single hero can 'carry' in the true sense by having gold actively funneled to him. Many heros, additionally, only need 1-2 items to reach their 'effective' stage in fights.
The amount of gold a proper ancient stack with HotD can give you is crazy. Proper jungle stacking, additionally, makes every single jungle camp a potentially huge windfall in terms of cash and gold.What's more, baron is a pretty trash buff in comparison to having an extra life on a real carry. Think being gifted an IE at 24 minutes if you kept a certain area of the map safe for the majority of the game.
So no, its not buff control that makes the metas different. Its how heros snowball and the crushing effect of denies on a losing lane.
Er...how exactly does this aspect of HoN/DotA have to do with jungling as we see it in LoL?
I'm aware of these aspects of HoN/DotA (lane denying, creep stacking, stronger snowballing carries), but they don't seem directly related to the issue of mandatory full-time jungling in LoL. Creep stacking makes the jungle MORE lucrative, but full-time jungling is mandatory in LoL but not in HoN/DotA.
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On April 29 2011 21:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 20:06 L wrote:
Your analysis is completely wrong. The reason why HoN/DotA run 1-1-3 lanes is because the 3 lane can stack creeps in jungle and deny the lane, establishing near full control + allowing for pressure on midlane. Because of how HoN/DotA carries work, a slight advantage leads to lane control, which leads to denies, which leads to larger lane control. Since nukes don't scale into mid or endgame, a single hero can 'carry' in the true sense by having gold actively funneled to him. Many heros, additionally, only need 1-2 items to reach their 'effective' stage in fights.
The amount of gold a proper ancient stack with HotD can give you is crazy. Proper jungle stacking, additionally, makes every single jungle camp a potentially huge windfall in terms of cash and gold.What's more, baron is a pretty trash buff in comparison to having an extra life on a real carry. Think being gifted an IE at 24 minutes if you kept a certain area of the map safe for the majority of the game.
So no, its not buff control that makes the metas different. Its how heros snowball and the crushing effect of denies on a losing lane. Er...how exactly does this aspect of HoN/DotA have to do with jungling as we see it in LoL? I'm aware of these aspects of HoN/DotA (lane denying, creep stacking, stronger snowballing carries), but they don't seem directly related to the issue of mandatory full-time jungling in LoL. Creep stacking makes the jungle MORE lucrative, but full-time jungling is mandatory in LoL but not in HoN/DotA.
Why would I toss someone in the jungle for an extra solo lane when the solo lane's not going to get any farm and will be dealing with a deny range more than twice his damage output's size. The benefit of jungling disappears because the trade off in the above aspects are all amplified in DotA.
Imagine every hero now plays like GP. Now imagine that you can raise morale every creep. Why bother tossing someone in the jungle when I can completely skullfuck you by dominating a lane. Indefinetely preventing a certain hero from reaching blink, for instance, can singlehandedly win a team the game.
Lets examine a few of the issues:
Denying: If you have someone jungling, unless he's a superb ganker from very low levels, you will be pushed off creeps by the extra hero in the lane, which means you're going to struggle to cs. Additionally, an extra person in lane means that the deny window that they have is going to be larger than the last hit window that you have. Ideally, they'll be able to deny everything if there's a sufficient disparity in attack damage, position notwithstanding.
Creep stacking: In LoL, if you don't kill a jungle mob the moment it spawns, its losing productivity. The creeps spawn based upon the time that they die and they cannot be stored. In DotA, they spawn at set intervals and can be stacked. One person running a jungle circuit can 'store' the gold value of the jungle for a hero that will benefit more from the boost.
Snowballing: Well, now that I can choose WHO gets the cash, it makes sense that having stronger carries would push me towards having them, rather than the jungler, take most of the gold. Since the creeps spawn at a set time I don't need to devote a full character to jungling either. Instead, I can pull specific camps when I need to.
Having three top and having one be a puller/roamer also allows you to secure runes.
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Although I admit I have almost zero knowledge of DotA/HoN, I would like to add that having a roamer can also try to put pressure on the other lanes, which would also allow your carries/people who need farm to get more money and hopefully "win" their lanes.
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EPT
