|
Updated the following 'move-to-unit' spells so they will fail less often: Aegis of Zeonia, Audacious Charge, Bandage Toss, Bladesurge, Cataclysm, Demacian Standard + Dragon Strike, Headbutt, Heroic Charge, Leap Strike, Paranoia, Resonating Strike, Safeguard, and Twisted Advance
it may just be a placebo effect but I feel like this helps alot. bandage toss feels "stickier" and I think the range extends past the tip of the animation.
so its like
======O
rather than
------------
or at least thats how it felt in my games today, but idunno, anyone else gettin the same results from the other champs?
|
On April 27 2011 11:36 SQWKZ wrote:
Everyone being strong based on resource aquisition doesn't make the game more of a team game. It makes the game more of a farm before being able to do anything interesting game, with the exact same amount of "team" in it as having more heroes dependent on plays made. (Actually that would put the game much more into the solo laners' hands, and make it less of a team game by your criteria?) Besides, LoL doesn't have any carries with good enough scaling to make that hyperbole of yours even a remotely feasible outcome of more item indepence.
It's not like item independent characters tend to have that big of an impact in the late game, if they don't make a difference earlier - e.g. Alistar can make decent use of farm (as an aside, Ap cow - holy cow!), and is set back in the late game, if he roamed too much ineffectively. I think it's healthy for the game to have characters capable of upsetting the balance of who-farms-best. Maybe you think guitar was saying we need to make item independent heroes more independent?
I also think Alistar is a decently balanced dude of roaming, compared to like Shaco, who really becomes the sole person in charge of the game, with his rape ass or fail composition.
The problem with roamers, I feel, is that there are not enough effective ones, so it's possible to end up with a farm dependent team, while the enemy can make decisive plays earlier, and with greater freedom. Easily fixed by having some more capable, less item dependent champions, imoimoimo.
Also, jungling does have it's drawbacks, kinda, but with the way buffs are set up in this game, junglers are pretty mandatory.
On April 27 2011 14:20 Ryuu314 wrote:
Tons of champs are farm-independent. Off the top of my head I can name Janna, Alistar, Taric (sometimes) Blitzcrank (sometimes)
What makes a good support champ is the fact that they're farm independent. Roaming already does have drawbacks. The lack of experience is a pretty big one -.-
"Farm independent" champions in League of Legends are teamdependent. They don´t get less CS because they couldn´t use it but because they want their allies to get more. Jungling and roaming isn´t a good idea by itself but because you get more solo lanes.
It´s what makes team objectives attractive since dragongold is important. Gold and XP are the ingame mesurements for doing "well", the better players have more and it´s what makes them actually win. The big difference there is that Teams as a whole should snowball but not individual players.
Teamplay doesn´t mean you hope that your carry is a 2k elo smurf but that the teams chances of winning are dependent on cooperation and synergy. That means everyones impact should ideally be equal over the whole game - if the team does well.
Voluntairily going 0 CS so your lanepartner can get more has to be a sacrifice on the 0 CS guys part or going 0 CS would ALWAYS be the correct choice and every CS and "Killsteal" a mistake.
It´s fine if 0 CS is the overall stronger play but only if it requires better preformance and cooperation by both players and if it isn´t mandatory to play.
|
in DotA and HoN the traditional support champions also could really use the farm and levels. Lion does fine without but really doesn't mind having a lvl 3 ultimate sooner than anyone else and a scepter for more ulti damage and a blink dagger. Venge can be built dps and she can be a strong semi-carry.
It's the same in the other games as well. They can use the farm but it's not as important for them. I don't think there's much of a difference when compared to LoL. The amount of CC / utility you have isn't affected by AP or other items, and that's what those farm-independent heroes are for.
|
On April 27 2011 18:59 Unentschieden wrote:Gold and XP are the ingame mesurements for doing "well", the better players have more and it´s what makes them actually win.
Roaming and jungle ganks are only effective if you put your team ahead as a whole, to make up for your loss of lanegold/xp. You gank mid. Success? If yes, mid has a chance to make a move to put other lanes ahead as well. Your Team starts to snowball. Individual advantage turns into a team advantage. So yes, gold/xp are a measurement of success, and if roaming nets your team an advantage in those, what's wrong? If you strictly splitfarm bot, you will kick in later in the game.
Every champion is team dependent to a large extent. The way the game is, a goldwise underfarmed CC'er in a team with a farmed DPS beats a team with the opposite, at least on paper.
On April 27 2011 18:59 Unentschieden wrote:Jungling and roaming isn´t a good idea by itself but because you get more solo lanes.
What. You get buff control, map control etc. not just solo lane gold....
|
Gangplank makes me so sad in early game
cant deny anymore, and last hits i know ida got before he got nerfed are like
LOL you wish bro
I hope they revert the parley changes =[
|
I hope they revert his ult changes, it does absolutely nothing now LOL
|
On April 27 2011 15:44 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +Updated the following 'move-to-unit' spells so they will fail less often: Aegis of Zeonia, Audacious Charge, Bandage Toss, Bladesurge, Cataclysm, Demacian Standard + Dragon Strike, Headbutt, Heroic Charge, Leap Strike, Paranoia, Resonating Strike, Safeguard, and Twisted Advance it may just be a placebo effect but I feel like this helps alot. bandage toss feels "stickier" and I think the range extends past the tip of the animation. so its like ======O rather than ------------ or at least thats how it felt in my games today, but idunno, anyone else gettin the same results from the other champs?
I think it's legitimately easier to hit bandage toss right now. I have been hit by a couple of tosses that I am positive would have missed before. It might just be me, though.
But stuff like brand's Q still sometimes go through people without hitting them -_- ugh.
|
On April 27 2011 21:53 SQWKZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 18:59 Unentschieden wrote:Gold and XP are the ingame mesurements for doing "well", the better players have more and it´s what makes them actually win. Roaming and jungle ganks are only effective if you put your team ahead as a whole, to make up for your loss of lanegold/xp. You gank mid. Success? If yes, mid has a chance to make a move to put other lanes ahead as well. Your Team starts to snowball. Individual advantage turns into a team advantage. So yes, gold/xp are a measurement of success, and if roaming nets your team an advantage in those, what's wrong? If you strictly splitfarm bot, you will kick in later in the game. Every champion is team dependent to a large extent. The way the game is, a goldwise underfarmed CC'er in a team with a farmed DPS beats a team with the opposite, at least on paper.
It´s a issue if a champion doesn´t rely on gold/xp to do well. CC low and DPS high is NOT the problematic scenario since you DO aquire the resources. Its bad when CC low = CC high. CC low being good if DPS is farmed is great, CC low being good even if DPS isn´t farmed either is a balance issue. Just because roaming is a interesting strat doesn´t mean it´s ok to be OP.
On April 27 2011 21:53 SQWKZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 18:59 Unentschieden wrote:Jungling and roaming isn´t a good idea by itself but because you get more solo lanes. What. You get buff control, map control etc. not just solo lane gold....
You are misunderstanding. The point is soloer > jungler in terms of gold/XP. The champion that takes the jungle won´t get as farmed and will hardly scale well into lategame (only olaf and amumu really do). A jungler is not a valuable on his own, he needs to create an "additional" advantage by disupting the enemy team on top of "neutral" resource control.
|
On April 28 2011 04:20 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 21:53 SQWKZ wrote:On April 27 2011 18:59 Unentschieden wrote:Gold and XP are the ingame mesurements for doing "well", the better players have more and it´s what makes them actually win. Roaming and jungle ganks are only effective if you put your team ahead as a whole, to make up for your loss of lanegold/xp. You gank mid. Success? If yes, mid has a chance to make a move to put other lanes ahead as well. Your Team starts to snowball. Individual advantage turns into a team advantage. So yes, gold/xp are a measurement of success, and if roaming nets your team an advantage in those, what's wrong? If you strictly splitfarm bot, you will kick in later in the game. Every champion is team dependent to a large extent. The way the game is, a goldwise underfarmed CC'er in a team with a farmed DPS beats a team with the opposite, at least on paper. It´s a issue if a champion doesn´t rely on gold/xp to do well. CC low and DPS high is NOT the problematic scenario since you DO aquire the resources. Its bad when CC low = CC high. CC low being good if DPS is farmed is great, CC low being good even if DPS isn´t farmed either is a balance issue. Just because roaming is a interesting strat doesn´t mean it´s ok to be OP. Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 21:53 SQWKZ wrote:On April 27 2011 18:59 Unentschieden wrote:Jungling and roaming isn´t a good idea by itself but because you get more solo lanes. What. You get buff control, map control etc. not just solo lane gold.... You are misunderstanding. The point is soloer > jungler in terms of gold/XP. The champion that takes the jungle won´t get as farmed and will hardly scale well into lategame (only olaf and amumu really do). A jungler is not a valuable on his own, he needs to create an "additional" advantage by disupting the enemy team on top of "neutral" resource control.
The value is that you have one extra solo, and a jungler gains more gold than half a lane does.
Or is that a joke? I can't tell.
|
On April 28 2011 04:20 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 21:53 SQWKZ wrote:On April 27 2011 18:59 Unentschieden wrote:Gold and XP are the ingame mesurements for doing "well", the better players have more and it´s what makes them actually win. Roaming and jungle ganks are only effective if you put your team ahead as a whole, to make up for your loss of lanegold/xp. You gank mid. Success? If yes, mid has a chance to make a move to put other lanes ahead as well. Your Team starts to snowball. Individual advantage turns into a team advantage. So yes, gold/xp are a measurement of success, and if roaming nets your team an advantage in those, what's wrong? If you strictly splitfarm bot, you will kick in later in the game. Every champion is team dependent to a large extent. The way the game is, a goldwise underfarmed CC'er in a team with a farmed DPS beats a team with the opposite, at least on paper. It´s a issue if a champion doesn´t rely on gold/xp to do well. CC low and DPS high is NOT the problematic scenario since you DO aquire the resources. Its bad when CC low = CC high. CC low being good if DPS is farmed is great, CC low being good even if DPS isn´t farmed either is a balance issue. Just because roaming is a interesting strat doesn´t mean it´s ok to be OP. Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 21:53 SQWKZ wrote:On April 27 2011 18:59 Unentschieden wrote:Jungling and roaming isn´t a good idea by itself but because you get more solo lanes. What. You get buff control, map control etc. not just solo lane gold.... You are misunderstanding. The point is soloer > jungler in terms of gold/XP. The champion that takes the jungle won´t get as farmed and will hardly scale well into lategame (only olaf and amumu really do). A jungler is not a valuable on his own, he needs to create an "additional" advantage by disupting the enemy team on top of "neutral" resource control.
The way I see it, roamers are good without resources only early to mid, and drop off if they don't make good use of that time. You come off like you think roamers are powerful early and late, no matter what. Roamer low + DPS low means that the team as a whole is not doing well. Even if you can still make good use of your individual skills, you are not going to do much in that scenario, and the farmed ones should be able to capitalize on their advantage. I just like to think of roaming and jungling as different methods of "farming", and roaming does have its risks. And no, an unfarmed "CC" champ is NOT as good as one with decent farm, even if he can still have an effect on the game.
On jungling, why do you say that it isn't a good idea by itself, and then justify that by comparing it to soloing, when the obvious alternative to it is duo laning?
To throw you a hyperbole, you basically think an individual shouldn't be able to fulfill any role in a team, unless he traditionally farms, even if by giving up his farm he creates a net advantage for the team? That's OP? If he doesn't create an advantage, the team as a whole is not strong, which is the thing that matters, even if the individual champ can still be useful to some extent.
|
On April 28 2011 06:27 SQWKZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 04:20 Unentschieden wrote:On April 27 2011 21:53 SQWKZ wrote:On April 27 2011 18:59 Unentschieden wrote:Gold and XP are the ingame mesurements for doing "well", the better players have more and it´s what makes them actually win. Roaming and jungle ganks are only effective if you put your team ahead as a whole, to make up for your loss of lanegold/xp. You gank mid. Success? If yes, mid has a chance to make a move to put other lanes ahead as well. Your Team starts to snowball. Individual advantage turns into a team advantage. So yes, gold/xp are a measurement of success, and if roaming nets your team an advantage in those, what's wrong? If you strictly splitfarm bot, you will kick in later in the game. Every champion is team dependent to a large extent. The way the game is, a goldwise underfarmed CC'er in a team with a farmed DPS beats a team with the opposite, at least on paper. It´s a issue if a champion doesn´t rely on gold/xp to do well. CC low and DPS high is NOT the problematic scenario since you DO aquire the resources. Its bad when CC low = CC high. CC low being good if DPS is farmed is great, CC low being good even if DPS isn´t farmed either is a balance issue. Just because roaming is a interesting strat doesn´t mean it´s ok to be OP. On April 27 2011 21:53 SQWKZ wrote:On April 27 2011 18:59 Unentschieden wrote:Jungling and roaming isn´t a good idea by itself but because you get more solo lanes. What. You get buff control, map control etc. not just solo lane gold.... You are misunderstanding. The point is soloer > jungler in terms of gold/XP. The champion that takes the jungle won´t get as farmed and will hardly scale well into lategame (only olaf and amumu really do). A jungler is not a valuable on his own, he needs to create an "additional" advantage by disupting the enemy team on top of "neutral" resource control. The way I see it, roamers are good without resources only early to mid, and drop off if they don't make good use of that time. You come off like you think roamers are powerful early and late, no matter what. Roamer low + DPS low means that the team as a whole is not doing well. Even if you can still make good use of your individual skills, you are not going to do much in that scenario, and the farmed ones should be able to capitalize on their advantage. I just like to think of roaming and jungling as different methods of "farming", and roaming does have its risks. And no, an unfarmed "CC" champ is NOT as good as one with decent farm, even if he can still have an effect on the game.
You got it. That is exactly why I´m in favour of the Alistar changes that moved him more in that direction. Promoting this kind of gameplay is the reason superstrong early CC has been nerfed recently.
On April 28 2011 06:27 SQWKZ wrote:
On jungling, why do you say that it isn't a good idea by itself, and then justify that by comparing it to soloing, when the obvious alternative to it is duo laning?
To throw you a hyperbole, you basically think an individual shouldn't be able to fulfill any role in a team, unless he traditionally farms, even if by giving up his farm he creates a net advantage for the team? That's OP? If he doesn't create an advantage, the team as a whole is not strong, which is the thing that matters, even if the individual champ can still be useful to some extent.
No you are simply projecting my position to be the opposite to yours for some reason. The whole idea is about resource allocation on your team. A Champions net value is, if he´d never leave his position about that order: Sololane>Sidelane>Jungler>Roamer. Junglers can keep up with the sidelane in XP untill about 6, then the long respawn time for Buffcamps / dragon means they either come to a lane or are underfarmed.
The problem with highly item independent champs would be that they could circumvent risky actions as any source of Gold and XP is contested but still function. While there is no reason to demand "traditional farming" it is important that every champion needs contested resources to do well. It´s no accident that the least itemreliant champs also happen to be the best picks.
|
I mainly took issue with you saying that jungling by itself is not a good idea, and probably took it too literally. It isn't good if you think about it in terms of gold/xp when staying in your dedicated zone, but if you remove that arbitrary limitation and add the value of control to gold and xp, having a jungler is strictly better than having a second duo. In my eyes, having another champ get a solo lane is not the primary purpose of having a jungler.
|
There is no way to have five champs farming at different places in this game. If you don't jungle, there's not even any way to have four champs farm separately. In addition, concentrating your gold onto fewer champs basically always increases its effectiveness (compare Ashe with ~4500 gold (IE plus boots) plus a 350-gold ... lets say Corki to an Ashe with 2500 gold (BF sword + boots, probably) and a Corki with 2500 gold (Manamune + boots?). I contend the first is far scarier to fight. Go make up more examples if you want).
So you're always best off having your duo lanes let one person farm and the other one just get exp and ignore enemy minions.
It doesn't matter what Riot does, there will always be some champs who get less from gold than other champs. Those champs will then by default become the farm-independent champs in LoL. I mean, Janna and Taric certainly get nice benefits from more AP and survivability. Alistar before his rework could actually do a lot of damage if he itemized toward it. They just don't need items to be useful, so they were the best choice for the one (or two if you don't jungle) champ who wasn't going to try to farm up on the team.
I like having champs who don't need items to do something useful because 5v5 is a lot more interesting than 4.5v4.5.
|
Hmm... in general though, it's never a bad thing to be ABLE to kill creeps faster. I don't think that point in debatable. Just because your champ needs zero farm doesn't mean if you had to choose, you'd have him be a deadbeat at killing creeps.
In that sense I'd say the cow got a decent buff. Say you just finished a teamfight and came out ahead but not enough to secure any objectives. Alistar is one of the survivors and there are a couple of lanes with creep buildups. The new cow could secure a lot more gold and push that lane further in that period of time given that he has only like ~15 seconds to farm before he has to recall, buy and rejoin his team.
|
I never said being able to farm is bad. Obviously in a duo lane you won't have your lane partner there the entire time and being able to grab that gold is good, or maybe you are the only death in a teamfight and you have to go clear a lane after you respawn as your team bluepills. Being able to farm is never bad, I agree.
I thought the discussion was about Riot pushing the current farm-independent champs to be more item-dependent and I was pointing out that I don't think it'll ever really work.
|
Russian Federation4235 Posts
The issue with farm-independent champions is not in the debate if they're needed or not. It's been already solved, they are needed. The issue is that there are so few viable picks for this archetype that you keep seeing the same Janna/Alistar in every darn game.
|
I think the fact that Riot is slowly buffing other support champs in ways which are item-independent (See: Sona) indicates that we may eventually have a greater number of viable farm-independent champions.
|
On April 28 2011 20:04 BluzMan wrote:
The issue with farm-independent champions is not in the debate if they're needed or not. It's been already solved, they are needed. The issue is that there are so few viable picks for this archetype that you keep seeing the same Janna/Alistar in every darn game.
"Needed" is relative. You need a itemindependent champ because the other team has one. You keep seeing Janna/Alistar all the time because they are "secretly" op. Not because they are necessearly superstrong but because the CS they don´t take makes their partner stronger than the opposition that shares CS while not becomming a liability.
It´s the reason you see a LOT more gold / 5 items and even Quints lately on choice champions and roaming emerged as the latest FOTM.
There is nothing wrong with the concept of "support needs less gold themselves if the champs they support get more". But in the case of Ali/Janna/Taric they are too good at that and it shows in teampicks even if they don´t get pentakills.
|
|
|
United States47024 Posts
On April 29 2011 00:09 Unentschieden wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the concept of "support needs less gold themselves if the champs they support get more". But in the case of Ali/Janna/Taric they are too good at that and it shows in teampicks even if they don´t get pentakills.
I would argue that it has nothing to do with the power-level of the individual supports, and with the strength of the role. Bear in mind that in games where Taric/Alistar/Janna/etc are banned, high Elo teams don't revert to splitting farm, they STILL play with 1 person forgoing farm--they just shoehorn someone who is otherwise more farm dependent (Shen, Morgana, Lux, Maokai, Sion, etc.) into the role, since the most farm-independent champs are banned. You don't make split farm any more viable by making Janna/Ali/Taric more farm-dependent--people will just move to the next champs that aren't that farm-dependent.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
