EPT[Discussion] Patch Notes - Page 84
| Forum Index > LoL General |
|
Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
| ||
|
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On April 29 2011 00:46 Juicyfruit wrote: You can seriously play sion as a support =o? I've seen it. You roam and build Aegis and shit, it's weird but it does work. | ||
|
BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
| ||
|
Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On April 29 2011 00:55 BlackPaladin wrote: No, you really can't. lol Unless you're able to freefarm a lane later for like 20 mins after the roaming, you're just playing a bad version of what sion should be played as. zzzzzz And if you're going to do that shit just get taric who does that kind of stuff a lot better. yea, it's mostly just a bad version of taric, but he is stronger late game cause dat ult so strong. | ||
|
Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
Focus fat 5khp sion and get destroyed by rest of team or Let sion aoe heal his team for 500 per autoattack while providing 50000 auras to them | ||
|
BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On April 29 2011 00:09 Unentschieden wrote: "Needed" is relative. You need a itemindependent champ because the other team has one. You keep seeing Janna/Alistar all the time because they are "secretly" op. Not because they are necessearly superstrong but because the CS they don´t take makes their partner stronger than the opposition that shares CS while not becomming a liability. It´s the reason you see a LOT more gold / 5 items and even Quints lately on choice champions and roaming emerged as the latest FOTM. There is nothing wrong with the concept of "support needs less gold themselves if the champs they support get more". But in the case of Ali/Janna/Taric they are too good at that and it shows in teampicks even if they don´t get pentakills. Are you trolling the forum? | ||
|
Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On April 29 2011 00:24 TheYango wrote: I would argue that it has nothing to do with the power-level of the individual supports, and with the strength of the role. Bear in mind that in games where Taric/Alistar/Janna/etc are banned, high Elo teams don't revert to splitting farm, they STILL play with 1 person forgoing farm--they just shoehorn someone who is otherwise more farm dependent (Shen, Morgana, Lux, Maokai, Sion, etc.) into the role, since the most farm-independent champs are banned. You don't make split farm any more viable by making Janna/Ali/Taric more farm-dependent--people will just move to the next champs that aren't that farm-dependent. Why are we suddenly talking about split farming? On topic again: Janna/Taric/Ali aren´t the only 3 that fullfill this role but are simply the best low resource champions and an indication how powefull of an attribute resource independence is. | ||
|
Nafaltar
Germany302 Posts
| ||
|
dnastyx
United States2707 Posts
On April 29 2011 01:11 Tooplark wrote: late game supportsion is forcing the enemy team to choose between Focus fat 5khp sion and get destroyed by rest of team or Let sion aoe heal his team for 500 per autoattack while providing 50000 auras to them Late game Sion with support items will neither have that much HP nor be doing that much damage per autoattack. | ||
|
ArC_man
United States2798 Posts
On April 29 2011 01:40 Unentschieden wrote: Why are we suddenly talking about split farming? On topic again: Janna/Taric/Ali aren´t the only 3 that fullfill this role but are simply the best low resource champions and an indication how powefull of an attribute resource independence is. Having item independent champions isn't bad for the game. If it makes sense to have different champions scale differently with farm, then from a team and strategic perspective it also makes sense to funnel the majority of available farm to champions who scale better with more farm. Ali and Janna are not too good, other support/roamers are just bad at functioning well without farm. That's an inherent property of the game because Riot wants everyone to scale. Unfortunately, it's not the most optimal way to play because there's a limited amount of farm on the map. From reading your posts, I don't understand what your point/goal is. Do you want Riot to nerf all item-independent heros and make them scale with farm more? | ||
|
UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On April 29 2011 00:46 Juicyfruit wrote: You can seriously play sion as a support =o? Yes, it's a freaking ancient build and it was pretty good tbh. I doubt it's playable anymore though, it used to work because you had a lot more cc than taric and now it got cut by 25% | ||
|
ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
| ||
|
BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On April 29 2011 06:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: The point of a roamer is giving each lane a free stun. You trade one champion for a solo lane getting free stuns, similar to how Janna is trading one champion for a BF Sword at level 1. If Janna could really give a BF sword at level 1, this game would be very much different. It's 1.4 longswords which is also very nice but not nearly that much damage. | ||
|
Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On April 29 2011 03:34 ArC_man wrote: Having item independent champions isn't bad for the game. If it makes sense to have different champions scale differently with farm, then from a team and strategic perspective it also makes sense to funnel the majority of available farm to champions who scale better with more farm. It´s a question of degree. Too much item independence creates very unhealthy champions. As you point out yourself, by getting champs that don´t farm your other champs get more powerfull. Also it creates unsatisfying experiences for the item independent champs since they, by design, don´t scale and thus can´t carry. Unless they are plain op a item independent champ relies on CC since that "scales" with the power of your allies and enemies - thus your success relies mainly on how well everyone else plays. On April 29 2011 03:34 ArC_man wrote: Ali and Janna are not too good, other support/roamers are just bad at functioning well without farm. By that metric Shen is also not too good, it´s just that other Tanks suck due to not being as awesome. You said it yourself, gold independence is part of the support role, the less gold they need the better they are. I´m just saying that this attribute can be just as OP as being able to deal as much AOE damage at 0 AP as Annie would at 500. On April 29 2011 03:34 ArC_man wrote: That's an inherent property of the game because Riot wants everyone to scale. Unfortunately, it's not the most optimal way to play because there's a limited amount of farm on the map. The "most optimal" way to play does NOT automaticaly mean it´s good for the game and should be encouraged and designed for. Most of the time it means a broken and frustrating strategy. For a time it was most optimal to stack heals to make any team that didn´t have as many heals die to attrition. Or Promote stacking. Or clearly op champs like old TF or release Xin. On April 29 2011 03:34 ArC_man wrote: From reading your posts, I don't understand what your point/goal is. Do you want Riot to nerf all item-independent heros and make them scale with farm more? I actually don´t want Riot to change because they do balance item dependency quite reasonably right now. The start of the argument was after all the Alistar changes. Or as you said yourself, the idea that every champion scales, it´s one of the things I like most about LoL. | ||
|
SQWKZ
Finland720 Posts
On April 29 2011 08:42 Unentschieden wrote: It´s a question of degree. Too much item independence creates very unhealthy champions. As you point out yourself, by getting champs that don´t farm your other champs get more powerfull. Also it creates unsatisfying experiences for the item independent champs since they, by design, don´t scale and thus can´t carry. Unless they are plain op a item independent champ relies on CC since that "scales" with the power of your allies and enemies - thus your success relies mainly on how well everyone else plays. You have just summed up the support role quite succinctly with that last phrase - scaling or no scaling. On April 29 2011 08:42 Unentschieden wrote: By that metric Shen is also not too good, it´s just that other Tanks suck due to not being as awesome. You said it yourself, gold independence is part of the support role, the less gold they need the better they are. I´m just saying that this attribute can be just as OP as being able to deal as much AOE damage at 0 AP as Annie would at 500. Ok, so that's maybe what we disagree on? I'd like other supports to be on the ali/janna level, not the opposite, and to me that Shen comparison is just way off the mark. | ||
|
Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
| ||
|
SQWKZ
Finland720 Posts
| ||
|
crate
United States2474 Posts
They're supports because they are still useful without items, not because they don't get better with items. I mean Annie's ratios are all .7 or worse, Garen has terrible scaling, and Mordekaiser's AP ratios are 0.6 or lower (unless he ults someone with a ridiculous amount of health I suppose) and he doesn't have anything but Q that scales off of AD. I don't feel like the supports have noticeably worse scaling than most champs in LoL, and they likely scale better than the three champs I just mentioned. But a Morde with no items is basically entirely useless, whereas a Janna or Taric with no items is not. | ||
|
Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
| ||
|
ArC_man
United States2798 Posts
On April 29 2011 08:42 Unentschieden wrote: It´s a question of degree. Too much item independence creates very unhealthy champions. As you point out yourself, by getting champs that don´t farm your other champs get more powerfull. Also it creates unsatisfying experiences for the item independent champs since they, by design, don´t scale and thus can´t carry. Unless they are plain op a item independent champ relies on CC since that "scales" with the power of your allies and enemies - thus your success relies mainly on how well everyone else plays. I enjoy playing Alistar/Janna and not being farmed while still contributing to the team's effort, it's not an unsatisfying experience for me. You have to remember the goal of the game is to win. You don't have to carry and have a sick KDR to be integral to your team. Btw a champion "whose success depends on how farmed other heros on his team are" is called a support champion... there's nothing wrong with that. By that metric Shen is also not too good, it´s just that other Tanks suck due to not being as awesome. You said it yourself, gold independence is part of the support role, the less gold they need the better they are. I´m just saying that this attribute can be just as OP as being able to deal as much AOE damage at 0 AP as Annie would at 500. What I'm saying is, Riot has failed to make other good item independent support/gank champions. In fact, Riot hasn't made many good support champions period. The "most optimal" way to play does NOT automaticaly mean it´s good for the game and should be encouraged and designed for. Most of the time it means a broken and frustrating strategy. For a time it was most optimal to stack heals to make any team that didn´t have as many heals die to attrition. Or Promote stacking. Or clearly op champs like old TF or release Xin. These are basic ideas in maximizing resource efficiency in a RTS. Utilizing all the available resources you're allowed to use without getting punished for it by your opponent (ie: jungling) is basically like fast expanding in ZvT. Why should you not take advantage of the extra resource if your opponent won't punish you for it? Funneling the maximum amount of resources you have to those who can take most advantage of it (ie: giving the carry the farm) is like building the correct unit composition in a specific match-up. The game is being played in a more and more efficient manner. Also you do realize that the metagame of LoL is basically following in the footsteps of Dota right? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. | ||
| ||
