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Stuns are NEVER bad. Even against a caster with CDs up it will keep him from retreating and thus get you a kill. No one has such high CDs that you could ignore them once they used their abilities once.
Karma is... okish. She relies very heavily on competent allies though, especially for the Tether.
Caitlyns autoattack is very scary, which interestingly is problematic since Q and R are not worth using if you could hit with your normal attack. Q especially, if they are running save the CD when they get out of range, if they are coming for you you don´t want to channel.
Giving Caitlyn good scaling is dangerous for balance because her W/E are great gank defense, it´s REALLY hard to stop her farming.
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You people are REALLY underestimating soraka. Like, aside from being sick in lane (ever tried like, soraka veigar with someone good at last hitting? +1000 ap never oom), her mid/lategame and onwards are actually retarded if you get any bit of CDR or AP. You literally can go from an even game to a game where nobody dies for 5 minutes until end because you just heal people once you get into 1 advantageous fight you just keep everyone alive and it snowballs.
Hell, I was trolling some poppy with TL the other day in normals and soraka kept healing the ppl Iwas diving 3 towers so I tried to ulti her and finish her and even though my Q did like 1/4 of her HP she kept damn healing and running and I couldn't finish her with ult+silence+W spam with mass armour.
Soraka and zilean scale by far the best of the supports. If you doubt the zilean one check out regi's zilean in the recent TSM vs CLG where he goes mid, having a 0.9 ap, really high base damage, double casting 100% AoE is insane in teamfights. It seems like he's just better than annie sometimes with his ultimate+slow along with a similar damage output.
Karma seems pretty decent in a solo lane with lots of AP but is really hard to get used to and I haven't tested enough. She seems to do almost no damage played as a support and unless her lane is really good it seems not worth it. It's kinda like kayle support you technically support your teammates but its better if you get a solo lane.
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Didn't say stun was ever bad, it's just not really the only thing a champ needs when you combine with taric doing zero damage otherwise so his stun must absolutely be game changing. You throw a stun at that caster? He just flashes behind his team and suddenly taric didn't accomplish a whole lot.
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United States47024 Posts
Tapioca, I just can't get past your argument of "Karma does a bunch of damage, so she's better when your team does no damage and you need your support to be capable of doing damage." I don't think that's wrong, but I don't see how that's going to be a relevant situation that often. Maybe I don't have enough experience with draft mode (though I don't think you do either), but I don't get how you'd pick your carries 1st-4th pick, and suddenly at 5th pick go "oh shit, my carries don't do damage, I better pick Karma as my support". Maybe in solo queue, but I would think that the perception that Karma is terrible is going to get you dodged/trolled--at the very least it's going to make it less likely that people are going to listen to you, which is going to outweigh the fact that Taric/Soraka are suboptimal picks.
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On March 30 2011 22:55 Juicyfruit wrote:
Didn't say stun was ever bad, it's just not really the only thing a champ needs when you combine with taric doing zero damage otherwise so his stun must absolutely be game changing. You throw a stun at that caster? He just flashes behind his team and suddenly taric didn't accomplish a whole lot.
Forcing a flash isn´t nothing, especially if Taric constantly contributes his Aura and heals regardless. What support ability would actually be "better" than a stun in that given scenario?
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He just accomplished blowing that casters flash.
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On March 30 2011 22:52 Slayer91 wrote:
You people are REALLY underestimating soraka. Like, aside from being sick in lane (ever tried like, soraka veigar with someone good at last hitting? +1000 ap never oom), her mid/lategame and onwards are actually retarded if you get any bit of CDR or AP. You literally can go from an even game to a game where nobody dies for 5 minutes until end because you just heal people once you get into 1 advantageous fight you just keep everyone alive and it snowballs.
Hell, I was trolling some poppy with TL the other day in normals and soraka kept healing the ppl Iwas diving 3 towers so I tried to ulti her and finish her and even though my Q did like 1/4 of her HP she kept damn healing and running and I couldn't finish her with ult+silence+W spam with mass armour.
Soraka and zilean scale by far the best of the supports. If you doubt the zilean one check out regi's zilean in the recent TSM vs CLG where he goes mid, having a 0.9 ap, really high base damage, double casting 100% AoE is insane in teamfights. It seems like he's just better than annie sometimes with his ultimate+slow along with a similar damage output.
Karma seems pretty decent in a solo lane with lots of AP but is really hard to get used to and I haven't tested enough. She seems to do almost no damage played as a support and unless her lane is really good it seems not worth it. It's kinda like kayle support you technically support your teammates but its better if you get a solo lane.
I agree that soroka is great, especially when you have team standoffs when pushing towers. She keeps her team at full hp np. Amazing in lane ofc.
When regi is playing zilean solo mid, zilean is no longer taking a support role. :p
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I saw some insane AP and AD Sorakas kick some ass but doing that was like a Boxer stunt. Really shocking and surprising the first time, but in the future, you should be able to handle it very easily.
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On March 30 2011 23:15 Lobotomy wrote:
He just accomplished blowing that casters flash.
Yeah, I know that, and it's something, but let's say that the AP carry did just flash away, he not only avoided being focus fired by followup on taric's stun, but gives himself breathing room and withdraws attention from himself anyways. The caster is not really in a bad position even if he's down a flash. In any case, if this is going to happen in a lot of teamfights, then you're not really looking at getting your money's worth out of taric being on your team.
This is assuming you even have the luxury of using that stun on the caster. Most likely, you're going to be using that stun on a tanky champ who's trying to finish off your teammates following the caster's burst.
Again, I don't want to sound biased because I think all supports have their strengths and their weaknesses so I'll point out that Taric's a monster at teampushing. A group of 5 with taric can probably backdoor towers faster than another group of 5 pushing with minions.
The reason I vouch for Karma is because no one even bothers to evaluate her strengths seriously, and immediately dismiss her as "bad" because none of the high Elo teams have picked up Karma yet. A lot of the arguments I am hearing sound like arguments from people who basically never actually played the champ in any serious manner.
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Have to play her bot like Lux. Get a roamer,she really needs to cs. This is why good support are " good support " , they don't require the farm to fufill their role.
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I don't really think she needs to cs beyond maybe getting her first philo stone fast. She's pretty fast at catching up in cs/levels anyways.
Karma really doesn't need any items >.> her base nuking ability is very high without any AP items because they're all high base damage AoE with mid to low cooldowns.
It's harder to justify Lux having no cs because she channels nothing into her farmed teammates beyond a very unspectacular shield, and having to land a skillshot as the basis for damage has its repercussions if no one is afraid of you as it becomes harder to predict movement when there's no terror involved.
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They aren't that high damage though. They are, in fact, quite average, with level 6 Q doing about as much as level 4 Incinerate.
Oh and one of her nukes eats up a mantra, which you should rarely be using on shield except in lane.
The biggest deal with karma, IMO, is her %based heal. Mantra'd shields are pretty much never worth it outside of lane, and mantra'd tethers are kinda meh except very situationally, but mantra-cone can heal a lot of damage on, say, Singed. Even if singed is missing 3000 health, though, you're still only healing him for 285 with maxed mantra'd Q. Zilean is pretty much always a better pick, but I think Karma is the next best complement to tanky DPS teams.
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hurdedur what? mantra'd shields not worth... wait... what... I can't type through the fucking aneurysm I'm having atm.
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Sorry Mogwai 
I mean I would rather heal people than do damage to people most of the time.
Using mantra for shield does 280 damage + .8/AP to everything in autoattack range of your carry, unless it's caitlynn or something.
Using mantra for tether lets your carry position better and possibly also slow anyone coming in.
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well then you're crazy. 280 + (0.8 AP Ratio) AoE damage around the teammate they're focusing is fucking nuts. It's like donating a Sion Shield that deals its damage whether it gets popped or not with slightly worse scaling. I would say at least 80% of my mantras are spent on her shield. Post deathcap, you're generally giving someone a 500-600 damage shield and AoE nuking for the same amount, it's really absurd.
EDIT: stop putting your shield on your ranged carry then. karma isn't janna, her skillset is complete ass for protecting a ranged carry. her skillset is designed to turn your tanky damage dealer into a god who kills everything with your help.
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My friend just called me a meganoob for going Q > W > E(get lvl 1 fast tho) with Pantheon. He said I must always max E first.
Mogwai thoughts?
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Pantheon sucks ass now, so yea, you gotta go all-in on snowballing with E nowadays and hope they surrender at 20 minutes.
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Lol that's harsh o_O I was doing decently with revive-ghost ending 17-10 but its hm...
The problem I've had with E is that with lvl 1 W they just walk to the side and my E hits like one time.
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yea, I dunno, I'm not the one to ask about Pantheon atm, I think the character is complete and utter trash after the last round of nerfs and the broader metagame shifts. I still build him Q > W with 1 point in E when I actually get drunk enough to think it's a good idea to play him.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 30 2011 22:52 Slayer91 wrote:
You people are REALLY underestimating soraka. Like, aside from being sick in lane (ever tried like, soraka veigar with someone good at last hitting? +1000 ap never oom), her mid/lategame and onwards are actually retarded if you get any bit of CDR or AP. You literally can go from an even game to a game where nobody dies for 5 minutes until end because you just heal people once you get into 1 advantageous fight you just keep everyone alive and it snowballs.
Hell, I was trolling some poppy with TL the other day in normals and soraka kept healing the ppl Iwas diving 3 towers so I tried to ulti her and finish her and even though my Q did like 1/4 of her HP she kept damn healing and running and I couldn't finish her with ult+silence+W spam with mass armour.
Soraka and zilean scale by far the best of the supports. If you doubt the zilean one check out regi's zilean in the recent TSM vs CLG where he goes mid, having a 0.9 ap, really high base damage, double casting 100% AoE is insane in teamfights. It seems like he's just better than annie sometimes with his ultimate+slow along with a similar damage output.
Karma seems pretty decent in a solo lane with lots of AP but is really hard to get used to and I haven't tested enough. She seems to do almost no damage played as a support and unless her lane is really good it seems not worth it. It's kinda like kayle support you technically support your teammates but its better if you get a solo lane.
Soraka is almost useless vs a dual burst combo because you're squishy as hell and even though you heal and give a lot of mana OVER TIME, your resistance to burst (and that of your lanemate) is highly bolstered. Well, yeah some innate magic resist, but that's about it. Soraka is great if you can kite like forever, but in short fights she's meh. Not to say she hardcounters some champions like Karthus or Urgot (srsly 80 armor, wtf is that).
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EPT
