EPT[Discussion] Patch Notes - Page 64
| Forum Index > LoL General |
|
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
| ||
|
spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On March 30 2011 06:32 Shikyo wrote: And that's the problem on EU when you want to play someone like Karma or Lux. "OMG U SUPPORT GO BOTTOM LANE WITH AD CARRY AND GET 0 LASTHITS" Which leads to the amazing Sivir/Ashe + Karma lane. Holy crap that lane is soooo bad. If you ALWAYS had a Janna or Alistar as support and Corki or Trist as carry then maybe it would work somewhat, but the rest... On March 30 2011 06:59 Juicyfruit wrote: Q is a very very strong spell. It's a cone AoE on a 6 second cooldown. It's especially strong when your carries have a lot of base HP (read: strong when combined with the likes of vlad and olaf). It just looks stronger because the numbers are higher. In the end the only thing that counts is EHP restored. Because it's a %HP heal, you get the most EHP when the Armor/MR/HP ratio is good. In fact that heal even favors low HP because it adds a flat amount. | ||
|
Phrost
United States4008 Posts
| ||
|
red_b
United States1267 Posts
On March 30 2011 07:31 Shikyo wrote: 2 times I've played Lux bottom as a 0 ck support and basically in the midgame even if you land all your snares and slows you deal 0 dmg, ulti does nothing, shield does nothing, and you'll end up being useless and "OMG FEEDER"'d. Bot lux is terrible imo agreed. current meta is too tanky for her to work in that role. | ||
|
Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
On March 30 2011 07:46 spinesheath wrote: Which leads to the amazing Sivir/Ashe + Karma lane. Holy crap that lane is soooo bad. If you ALWAYS had a Janna or Alistar as support and Corki or Trist as carry then maybe it would work somewhat, but the rest... It just looks stronger because the numbers are higher. In the end the only thing that counts is EHP restored. Because it's a %HP heal, you get the most EHP when the Armor/MR/HP ratio is good. In fact that heal even favors low HP because it adds a flat amount. You don't understand, the reason why it looks better on the likes of vlad and olaf is because they have high HP + tendency to fight effectively when they're not full HP. Of course it works better on champs that have a lot of mitigation but those tend to be tanks, and you don't evaluate a support champ's effectiveness based on their ability to support tanks  although in karma's case the tank ends up getting some heal anyways from the large cone. It's a pretty strong heal that, when you stack it with your imba shield, the effects really start to add up, almost to the point of a mini soraka that trades infuse for a large cone damage. I think she's a little undervalued considering how SMALL the pool of support champs are, and the best ones are banned/first picked. To me, Karma can basically do what soraka does in teamfight, which is to keep people alive longer. Soraka is better at her at doing this, but Soraka's damage output is also effectively 0. If the rest of your team is on the lower-end of the damage spectrum, Karma is better than Soraka. Her Q -> R+E -> W -> Q burst is actually very high. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 30 2011 08:38 Juicyfruit wrote: To me, Karma can basically do what soraka does in teamfight, which is to keep people alive longer. Soraka is better at her at doing this, but Soraka's damage output is also effectively 0. If the rest of your team is on the lower-end of the damage spectrum, Karma is better than Soraka. Her Q -> R+E -> W -> Q burst is actually very high. The cost of this is that her kit comes with absolutely no hard CC, while Soraka can lock someone out of ability use for a full 3 seconds. Is that worth a little burst damage on a champ that you're not picking to do burst damage? | ||
|
Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
It's also not a "little" bit of burst damage. If you need someone dead, Q + E is a free 500 or so damage (way more if karma has already taken damage). Q being quite spammy as well. Later on, you can add W for damage as well. The closest thing to damage that soraka has is a weak 250 damage infuse which has a 15 second cooldown. | ||
|
spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On March 30 2011 08:38 Juicyfruit wrote: You don't understand, the reason why it looks better on the likes of vlad and olaf is because they have high HP + tendency to fight effectively when they're not full HP. Of course it works better on champs that have a lot of mitigation but those tend to be tanks, and you don't evaluate a support champ's effectiveness based on their ability to support tanks although in karma's case the tank ends up getting some heal anyways from the large cone. Yep, I don't understand. How does Vlad fight effectively when he's not full HP? Vlad gains nothing from not having full HP. Olaf sure, his passive. Trynd. KARMA LOL. But even for those, the actual HP numbers don't matter. It's all %HP and EHP. The only thing I can imagine you could mean is: Karma's heal is better than other support's (flat) heals on champs with high HP. | ||
|
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On March 30 2011 08:50 TheYango wrote: The cost of this is that her kit comes with absolutely no hard CC, while Soraka can lock someone out of ability use for a full 3 seconds. Is that worth a little burst damage on a champ that you're not picking to do burst damage? I didn't think Soraka's silence was that significant until some Soraka saved me from Cait's ulti with a flash-silence <_< | ||
|
Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
On March 30 2011 09:03 spinesheath wrote: Yep, I don't understand. How does Vlad fight effectively when he's not full HP? Vlad gains nothing from not having full HP. Olaf sure, his passive. Trynd. KARMA LOL. But even for those, the actual HP numbers don't matter. It's all %HP and EHP. The only thing I can imagine you could mean is: Karma's heal is better than other support's (flat) heals on champs with high HP. Vlad fights effectively when he's not at full HP simply because he's not going to be at full HP. What vlads usually do is take some damage before using R/W because those cost %HP but heal flat HP. Basically all I am saying is that Karma is more useful (relative to herself) if the carries on the team are fairly beefy. Sion's a good heal-target for karma too because he can afford to get lower on HP before being healed, what with his shield and all. Basically, if you have 2 squishy carries like annie/ashe who die as soon as they're caught, you don't pick karma because she's going to suck. If your carries are people like sion/vlad/olaf/swain, Karma's heal becomes significantly better. | ||
|
spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On March 30 2011 09:06 Juicyfruit wrote: Vlad fights effectively when he's not at full HP simply because he's not going to be at full HP. What vlads usually do is take some damage before using R/W because those cost %HP but heal flat HP. Basically all I am saying is that Karma is more useful (relative to herself) if the carries on the team are fairly beefy. Sion's a good heal-target for karma too because he can afford to get lower on HP before being healed, what with his shield and all. Basically, if you have 2 squishy carries like annie/ashe who die as soon as they're caught, you don't pick karma because she's going to suck. If your carries are people like sion/vlad/olaf/swain, Karma's heal becomes significantly better. And I am saying this has nothing to do with the amount of HP a champ has, but with his EHP. EHP makes champs beefy, not HP. | ||
|
Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
is there even a relevant point? If you're going to dwell on it: with champs who have fairly low HP but high EHP, soraka is better because she's going to heal a flat amount. The number on karma's heal actually scales WITH the amount of HP you have and is particularly effective when the target isn't at full HP. Therefore, Karma's heal starts catching up to soraka/taric when you have carries who have high HP but comparatively lower armor/MR. She's especially good when you have carries whose HP will definitely drop in a teamfight but who can power through and fight at low HP. Vlad is like this, and olaf is like this. And putting that aside, you obviously aren't just comparing the amount of heal. Like I said, I think Karma's a stronger bot laner than Janna or Soraka. Her damage output is significantly higher so you'd pick that up when you think your team's damage output isn't enough with soraka. | ||
|
spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
| ||
|
Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
But when you said HP doesn't make a champ beefy I got confused, because HP is obviously a factor in making champions beefy >.> Like how does that discredit Karma's strength ._. You want to use Karma when your champ has high HP, not particularly because a champ has high "E"hp. That's what I wanted to get across. You already got it a while back so no point on insisting on this. | ||
|
Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On March 30 2011 08:54 Juicyfruit wrote: If your team is low on damage, then yes it is. Infuse doesn't mean squat if your whole team together can't kill or focus the person that is silenced. It's also not a "little" bit of burst damage. If you need someone dead, Q + E is a free 500 or so damage (way more if karma has already taken damage). Q being quite spammy as well. Later on, you can add W for damage as well. The closest thing to damage that soraka has is a weak 250 damage infuse which has a 15 second cooldown. You wouldn't pick Soraka in the first place on a team with low damage, you'd pick Lux or Morgana or an actual damage champion. I've been thinking about Karma a lot lately, and basically she's an inferior choice for zero-CS babysitting, and an inferior choice for anything else. Fun, but she needs significant changes if she wants to compete at anything. | ||
|
Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
Neither lux nor morgana is better than karma at 0-cs babysitting while also doing damage. | ||
|
Morphx2
147 Posts
was fun :D Without me, my team would of probably lost. I was healing and shielding like a mofo and kiting their Morde while he was chasing us | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 30 2011 10:25 Morphx2 wrote: I love using Karma. I use her pure AP though. Last game I was up to 600 damage fans, 600 damage spirit bond, and a 700 shield was fun :D Without me, my team would of probably lost. I was healing and shielding like a mofo and kiting their Morde while he was chasing us You got 550+ AP on her, which could have translated into a LOT of farm on someone else. You're really making big presumptions saying that without you, the team would have lost, because if you didn't have those CS/kills, your carries would do much more damage, and your tanks would be much tankier. | ||
|
Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On March 30 2011 08:38 Juicyfruit wrote: I think she's a little undervalued considering how SMALL the pool of support champs are, and the best ones are banned/first picked. Janna and Taric are obviously better. Zilean and Sona are also better. Even Soraka is arguably better. I don't think she's underrated at all, she's just bad and at the bottom of the support champion barrel. Maybe she's better than Kayle? | ||
|
Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
| ||
| ||
