On March 12 2015 04:18 LaughingTulkas wrote: Or players could just learn to be more accurate with their mouseclicks. At the risk of sounding like a SC:BW bittervet (which I'm probably not, I was always terrible) how easy mode do we need to be? If you can't avoid clicking the minimap, how can you be accurate on skillshots?
I would consider not inadvertently clicking on sections of the interface that don't do what you want to do at the time to be basic parts of good gameplay. And I am not a hardcore player. I have a wife and a job and a one year old daughter who still isn't sleeping through the night effectively. I'm about as casual as you can get these days, and I still think if I click the minimap by accident it's my own damn fault and I don't need my hand held to make me feel better.
In my day we didn't even have minimaps and you had to scroll the whole screen if you wanted to see something else! Kids these days, grumble mumble grumble, get off my lawn!
it's way easier to accidentally click the heroes minimap than in starcraft (or any other rts/moba I've seen) because the heroes minimap is just planted on top of the playing field instead of getting its own part of the screen.
It's in a bottom corner just like any other RTS or Moba, it's just there's less interface around it.
I don't think I've ever click the minimap by accident, mainly because if I'm in position where I need to move precisely, I click closer to my actual hero (not across the screen) so I don't have pathing mistakes, and if I don't need to be that precise, I'll usually just click the minimap anyway on purpose. Maybe I'm lazy, but I sure as heck don't want to have to press another hotkey to use the minimap to move just because some people can't click accurately.
But you never use the minimap for moving accurately so what's the issue pressing ctrl to use it. Most people would just like to see it as an option and there's obviously plenty of people that are annoyed it's only an issue on one side of the screen. I may be lazy, but I sure as heck don't want to accidentally click on the minimap just because someone doesn't want an option to disable it. (this is in jest, I'm just playing devil's advocate )
On March 12 2015 18:20 Chairman Ray wrote: Anyone still getting into rank 1? Blizzard said each rank was supposed to represent 2% of players, so if that's working as intended, it must be pretty tough to get into rank 1 now since there are so many people there already. I'm almost there, but kinda hit my plateau. I blame it on Elo heaven. Every game I'm being matched against rank 1s and pros, and they're all so good, and I can't beat them. I wish that sometimes I would get pros on my side .
Yeah i just got there, I feel it got easier actually. I plateau'd before around lvl 5-6 but then suddenly got to 1 quite easily. Perhaps it was just stopping to try and talk too much or persuade people to do certain stuff and just going and accepting the occasional awful strategic game.
The amount of good players rises but the amount of new poor players coming in rises way more I feel so it got easier I think.
On March 12 2015 18:20 Chairman Ray wrote: Anyone still getting into rank 1? Blizzard said each rank was supposed to represent 2% of players, so if that's working as intended, it must be pretty tough to get into rank 1 now since there are so many people there already. I'm almost there, but kinda hit my plateau. I blame it on Elo heaven. Every game I'm being matched against rank 1s and pros, and they're all so good, and I can't beat them. I wish that sometimes I would get pros on my side .
Yeah i just got there, I feel it got easier actually. I plateau'd before around lvl 5-6 but then suddenly got to 1 quite easily. Perhaps it was just stopping to try and talk too much or persuade people to do certain stuff and just going and accepting the occasional awful strategic game.
The amount of good players rises but the amount of new poor players coming in rises way more I feel so it got easier I think.
I got to rank 1 after starting to play more duo and triple queue games as opposed to just solo-queuing. Just having one guaranteed person on the team that I could rely upon made a huge difference. Even at Rank 1, I still get matched up with everyone ranging from pros to hero league newbs (rank 40s). I really don't understand the matchmaker.
On March 12 2015 18:20 Chairman Ray wrote: Anyone still getting into rank 1? Blizzard said each rank was supposed to represent 2% of players, so if that's working as intended, it must be pretty tough to get into rank 1 now since there are so many people there already. I'm almost there, but kinda hit my plateau. I blame it on Elo heaven. Every game I'm being matched against rank 1s and pros, and they're all so good, and I can't beat them. I wish that sometimes I would get pros on my side .
Yeah i just got there, I feel it got easier actually. I plateau'd before around lvl 5-6 but then suddenly got to 1 quite easily. Perhaps it was just stopping to try and talk too much or persuade people to do certain stuff and just going and accepting the occasional awful strategic game.
The amount of good players rises but the amount of new poor players coming in rises way more I feel so it got easier I think.
I got to rank 1 after starting to play more duo and triple queue games as opposed to just solo-queuing. Just having one guaranteed person on the team that I could rely upon made a huge difference. Even at Rank 1, I still get matched up with everyone ranging from pros to hero league newbs (rank 40s). I really don't understand the matchmaker.
Matchmaker seems to heavily favor equaling out the mmr of both teams, rather then matching player to player. This is alot like how Dota 2's mmr works. That is, if a 3.8k mmr top tier player is queing, it will put them + 4 2.5k players vs 5 2.8k players.
Not enough players queing at "high" mmr to make it work nicely. I've been surprised at how theoretically unbalanced alot of my games are (just from mmr difference between teams).
Also, the league that your in has very little representation of what mmr you are - you can get to the top of the ladder by rank 40 if you win a vast majority of your games - it takes longer to grind to R1 then get to the top of the ladder.
(This is all from hotslogs, which while not 100% accurate seems to have a decent representation of player mmr's).
On March 12 2015 04:18 LaughingTulkas wrote: Or players could just learn to be more accurate with their mouseclicks. At the risk of sounding like a SC:BW bittervet (which I'm probably not, I was always terrible) how easy mode do we need to be? If you can't avoid clicking the minimap, how can you be accurate on skillshots?
I would consider not inadvertently clicking on sections of the interface that don't do what you want to do at the time to be basic parts of good gameplay. And I am not a hardcore player. I have a wife and a job and a one year old daughter who still isn't sleeping through the night effectively. I'm about as casual as you can get these days, and I still think if I click the minimap by accident it's my own damn fault and I don't need my hand held to make me feel better.
In my day we didn't even have minimaps and you had to scroll the whole screen if you wanted to see something else! Kids these days, grumble mumble grumble, get off my lawn!
it's way easier to accidentally click the heroes minimap than in starcraft (or any other rts/moba I've seen) because the heroes minimap is just planted on top of the playing field instead of getting its own part of the screen.
It's in a bottom corner just like any other RTS or Moba, it's just there's less interface around it.
I don't think I've ever click the minimap by accident, mainly because if I'm in position where I need to move precisely, I click closer to my actual hero (not across the screen) so I don't have pathing mistakes, and if I don't need to be that precise, I'll usually just click the minimap anyway on purpose. Maybe I'm lazy, but I sure as heck don't want to have to press another hotkey to use the minimap to move just because some people can't click accurately.
So what's wrong with having that be an advanced option? There are already several options for how skills are cast, I don't see why letting people customize how the mini-map works is so evil.
Also worth noting other mobas are primarily diagonal in design, lanes going southwest to northeast which means the southeast corner is less likely to result in an accidental minimap click.
On March 12 2015 04:18 LaughingTulkas wrote: Or players could just learn to be more accurate with their mouseclicks. At the risk of sounding like a SC:BW bittervet (which I'm probably not, I was always terrible) how easy mode do we need to be? If you can't avoid clicking the minimap, how can you be accurate on skillshots?
I would consider not inadvertently clicking on sections of the interface that don't do what you want to do at the time to be basic parts of good gameplay. And I am not a hardcore player. I have a wife and a job and a one year old daughter who still isn't sleeping through the night effectively. I'm about as casual as you can get these days, and I still think if I click the minimap by accident it's my own damn fault and I don't need my hand held to make me feel better.
In my day we didn't even have minimaps and you had to scroll the whole screen if you wanted to see something else! Kids these days, grumble mumble grumble, get off my lawn!
it's way easier to accidentally click the heroes minimap than in starcraft (or any other rts/moba I've seen) because the heroes minimap is just planted on top of the playing field instead of getting its own part of the screen.
It's in a bottom corner just like any other RTS or Moba, it's just there's less interface around it.
I don't think I've ever click the minimap by accident, mainly because if I'm in position where I need to move precisely, I click closer to my actual hero (not across the screen) so I don't have pathing mistakes, and if I don't need to be that precise, I'll usually just click the minimap anyway on purpose. Maybe I'm lazy, but I sure as heck don't want to have to press another hotkey to use the minimap to move just because some people can't click accurately.
So what's wrong with having that be an advanced option? There are already several options for how skills are cast, I don't see why letting people customize how the mini-map works is so evil.
I agree with having it as options. Luckily its still Beta so you should suggest it!
HotS has done a good job at having modular controls and I think having a wide variety of map modes has forced Blizzard to really analyze the MOBA genre in intriguing ways. I've been greatly enjoying the Beta so far.
On March 12 2015 04:18 LaughingTulkas wrote: Or players could just learn to be more accurate with their mouseclicks. At the risk of sounding like a SC:BW bittervet (which I'm probably not, I was always terrible) how easy mode do we need to be? If you can't avoid clicking the minimap, how can you be accurate on skillshots?
I would consider not inadvertently clicking on sections of the interface that don't do what you want to do at the time to be basic parts of good gameplay. And I am not a hardcore player. I have a wife and a job and a one year old daughter who still isn't sleeping through the night effectively. I'm about as casual as you can get these days, and I still think if I click the minimap by accident it's my own damn fault and I don't need my hand held to make me feel better.
In my day we didn't even have minimaps and you had to scroll the whole screen if you wanted to see something else! Kids these days, grumble mumble grumble, get off my lawn!
it's way easier to accidentally click the heroes minimap than in starcraft (or any other rts/moba I've seen) because the heroes minimap is just planted on top of the playing field instead of getting its own part of the screen.
It's in a bottom corner just like any other RTS or Moba, it's just there's less interface around it.
I don't think I've ever click the minimap by accident, mainly because if I'm in position where I need to move precisely, I click closer to my actual hero (not across the screen) so I don't have pathing mistakes, and if I don't need to be that precise, I'll usually just click the minimap anyway on purpose. Maybe I'm lazy, but I sure as heck don't want to have to press another hotkey to use the minimap to move just because some people can't click accurately.
So what's wrong with having that be an advanced option? There are already several options for how skills are cast, I don't see why letting people customize how the mini-map works is so evil.
I dunno, you're probably right. And like I said, perhaps I'm just old and crotchety, I just think that if you can't not click the minimap by accident then you should just learn to click better. Go play Osu or something and hone those skills. Protip: I am terrible at Osu.
Actually they should allow you to zoom out more instead and increase the range on ranged heroes slightly (I feel like it is unnecessarily small because - well, you don't actually get to see much area on your monitor at any point in time). Of course this is also depending on the hero that you play (try Azmodan who is HUGE for example); if most of my screen is just made up of 4 heroes and a few creeps then there is not much space left to maneuver around to be honest. And if most of what is left of my screen is made up of the minimap that can stretch quite far vertically depending on the map I have to sometimes gamble when retreating.
Maybe I played LoL too much, but I do believe that this is a huge area to improve on. If I want to see the shiny graphics I will zoom in on my own and don't want to be forced to play with tunnel vision all the time; also I don't want to have to move my mouse to the other side of the screen just to do a small turn.
Oh, and LaughingTulkas, while I do believe that it is important to keep difficult-to-achieve aspects of the game to allow for skill, the direct control of your hero and the way you can see the battlefield should not be one of them. Making combos of abilities hard to hit, or skillshots, or extra abiliites, or whatnot is fine with me. But I should at least have the feeling of being in total control of the single unit that I am controlling. The game does not have to be too easy but it should be easily accessible.
On March 12 2015 04:18 LaughingTulkas wrote: Or players could just learn to be more accurate with their mouseclicks. At the risk of sounding like a SC:BW bittervet (which I'm probably not, I was always terrible) how easy mode do we need to be? If you can't avoid clicking the minimap, how can you be accurate on skillshots?
I would consider not inadvertently clicking on sections of the interface that don't do what you want to do at the time to be basic parts of good gameplay. And I am not a hardcore player. I have a wife and a job and a one year old daughter who still isn't sleeping through the night effectively. I'm about as casual as you can get these days, and I still think if I click the minimap by accident it's my own damn fault and I don't need my hand held to make me feel better.
In my day we didn't even have minimaps and you had to scroll the whole screen if you wanted to see something else! Kids these days, grumble mumble grumble, get off my lawn!
it's way easier to accidentally click the heroes minimap than in starcraft (or any other rts/moba I've seen) because the heroes minimap is just planted on top of the playing field instead of getting its own part of the screen.
Exactly this. The minimap is actually in the playing field unlike SC2. I don't think it looks bad and it does lend to a more visible play field, but it is definitely something to get used too.
I like the way the game is right now, at first yeah it seems too zoomed in, but i think thats because the heroes are giagantic compared to other things, and in scale, everything seems to be much bigger than in sc2, but after a while i've grown to like it. Why do you wan't to see more of the map if your characters visión wont increase?
Also, i recomment everyone to go check and re read the first pages of this thread, between the reactions to the carbot cinematic announcement and the "hots? we already have hots" stuff it is hilarious. This is my fav comment: + Show Spoiler +
On October 18 2013 14:56 nakam wrote: The game will get two expansions, Wrath of Legends (WoL) and League of the Vikings (LotV).
And also, one thing I noticed is that on the gameplay sneak peak of the game announcement on 2013, they already had jaina, with her current skill set, anub arak, azmodan, lili, and surprise surprise: Rexxar and Cho'gall at the minute 1:38. Also the male barbarian (which i hope they make a new hero and not just a skin).
Its interesting to see how the game was when it was announced and how much it has changed, and how slow Blizzard has been with Hero Releases.
On March 12 2015 18:20 Chairman Ray wrote: Anyone still getting into rank 1? Blizzard said each rank was supposed to represent 2% of players, so if that's working as intended, it must be pretty tough to get into rank 1 now since there are so many people there already. I'm almost there, but kinda hit my plateau. I blame it on Elo heaven. Every game I'm being matched against rank 1s and pros, and they're all so good, and I can't beat them. I wish that sometimes I would get pros on my side .
Yeah i just got there, I feel it got easier actually. I plateau'd before around lvl 5-6 but then suddenly got to 1 quite easily. Perhaps it was just stopping to try and talk too much or persuade people to do certain stuff and just going and accepting the occasional awful strategic game.
The amount of good players rises but the amount of new poor players coming in rises way more I feel so it got easier I think.
I got to rank 1 after starting to play more duo and triple queue games as opposed to just solo-queuing. Just having one guaranteed person on the team that I could rely upon made a huge difference. Even at Rank 1, I still get matched up with everyone ranging from pros to hero league newbs (rank 40s). I really don't understand the matchmaker.
Matchmaker seems to heavily favor equaling out the mmr of both teams, rather then matching player to player. This is alot like how Dota 2's mmr works. That is, if a 3.8k mmr top tier player is queing, it will put them + 4 2.5k players vs 5 2.8k players.
Not enough players queing at "high" mmr to make it work nicely. I've been surprised at how theoretically unbalanced alot of my games are (just from mmr difference between teams).
Also, the league that your in has very little representation of what mmr you are - you can get to the top of the ladder by rank 40 if you win a vast majority of your games - it takes longer to grind to R1 then get to the top of the ladder.
(This is all from hotslogs, which while not 100% accurate seems to have a decent representation of player mmr's).
All the mmr talk is silly when the algorithm for it on the public sites is fundamentally flawed at the moment.
There is no way for the community sites to correct for preteamining which can happen in an unfair matter in HotS. The whole idea behind ELO or similar algorithms is to award points based on win expectancy, ie if you are rated lower than your opponents you win more etc. This fails quite hard though if you don't include preteaming into the equation though, a preteam of 5 lower rated players can easily be favored against a bunch of scattered higher rated players, but the community sites don't (and I don't think they can with replay data alone) correct for this. Hence if you team more you are overrated and if you team little you are underrated on this sites since you respectively get too much or too little for your wins. In games where the amount of preteaming is fixed (ie 5v5 only or a bunch of solo/duo vs solo/duo only) this problem would be less but it's prevalent in HotS.
Even more so the lack of data on Hotslogs is significant. I don't automatically put this uploading stuff on and once in a while I did upload just to see what's going on. I routinely found a large chunk, say 30%, of my games not to be duplicate so even near the rank 1 games a high proportion of games isn't uploaded. Statistically speaking this is a missing data problem which is tricky because it's clearly not Missing completely at random, very likely scarce uploaders are underrated simply because there isn't enough data for them.
Finally the community sites do some guesses to an algortihm, the parameters don't matter so much if you mass games in these algorithms as you will level out but for example the hero league and quick match are separated. I would be surprised if blizzard didn't have these combined for some way, probably you're starting mmr for hero league is based on your quick match results. Again something the mmr sites don't use. Leading even more to the problem that newish players are severely misrated by the community mmr sites.
Simply put trying to deduce stuff from the matchmaking system or it's flaws from some community sites is silly. And these constant posts referring to them, even with the caveat that they know the system isn't entirely accurate, are retarded. Just eyeballing that the mmr seems to be fine is of very little value. Thus deducing how the matchmaking system works based on how the mmr's match up on hotslogs is silly.
And yet, hotslog's algorithm is very close from the "truth". I'm rank 1 and when I lose a lot of points ingame (between 15 and 20) I lose a lot of points on hotslog and vice-versa, I've never seen a game where blizzard thinks I deserved to lose/win a bit/a lot of points and hotslog didn't replicate. The only difference I've seen is blizzard gives you 1 point minimum for a win and hotslog will sometimes give 0 if the matchmaking was wayyyyy too unbalanced. Same applies for a loss.
You're right though about the fact that people will climb the hotslog ladder faster if they play in premades but as soon as they queue for solo games and fail to carry a bunch of noobs they will lose a TON of points to make up for it.
Yes these external websites are not 100% accurate but they are very close to where blizzard think your level is and they give you a real rating not some "rank 1 200 points" bullshit. I've hated that system on LoL (began S3, was fine before) and I'll hate it here again without a doubt.
I am sure that there are some outliers, but hotslogs is generally very accurate and is certainly more reliable for gauging how good a player is than the clumsy rank system.
On March 12 2015 18:20 Chairman Ray wrote: Anyone still getting into rank 1? Blizzard said each rank was supposed to represent 2% of players, so if that's working as intended, it must be pretty tough to get into rank 1 now since there are so many people there already. I'm almost there, but kinda hit my plateau. I blame it on Elo heaven. Every game I'm being matched against rank 1s and pros, and they're all so good, and I can't beat them. I wish that sometimes I would get pros on my side .
Well, as Blizzard is giving out more and more Beta keys, you get more players and thus the actual number for Rank1 also raises. Each 25k invites wave adds 500 more spots for Rank 1 ...
But ppl get just better at higher Ranks in general, yeah.
The amount of good players rises but the amount of new poor players coming in rises way more I feel so it got easier I think.
I think it got easier/harder in yolo-queue, as you occasionally get total noobs in the opposing team (much easier) or in your team (much harder), I think that's were alot of the "omfg, why do I always get matched up woth n00bs"-complaints we here lately stem from. Ppl dont see when then roflstomp the opponents that they most probably got 2-3 n00bs as well , but think they rock so hard. *eyeroll*
In Ranked it depends if you are on the "easier" or "harder" part of the ranks. At least for me, on NA (I'm just rank 35 there) it feels alot easier lately, while on EU (was rank 8, now 10) ppl got alot better (or I got worse?) lately.
On March 13 2015 03:20 mordek wrote: Also worth noting other mobas are primarily diagonal in design, lanes going southwest to northeast which means the southeast corner is less likely to result in an accidental minimap click.
I don't understand how this subject of clicking it on accident comes up so often but this is a solid point. I don't mind the option of making it need ctrl or however people want to solve it but I've never even come close to hitting it on accident so it's tough for me to understand how other people do it.
I was actually wondering why I did it sometimes, because when I tried to find the reason for it, the minimap was fine. I thought I was hitting invisible parts of the minimap ... but those are only like the tiny hole of haunted mines. But haunted mines is the key word in my case. Played 2 games on it then played on cursed and accidental minimap clicks followed. So was my own fault of getting used to the minimap of Mines, that is really lower right friendly.
On March 13 2015 03:20 mordek wrote: Also worth noting other mobas are primarily diagonal in design, lanes going southwest to northeast which means the southeast corner is less likely to result in an accidental minimap click.
I don't understand how this subject of clicking it on accident comes up so often but this is a solid point. I don't mind the option of making it need ctrl or however people want to solve it but I've never even come close to hitting it on accident so it's tough for me to understand how other people do it.
So what you are saying is that it's though for you to understand that different persons may have different clicking habits than you, and so even if you don't face this problem other people may?
As i said, this has more to do with clicking patterns than "skill" as one of the posters above me is insinuation. The point that that poster makes about the other games being more "diagonal" is also a good one. And the fact that the different maps have very different minimap sizes doesn't help either.
EPT
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, but think they rock so hard. *eyeroll*
