EPTHeroes Large General Thread - Page 358
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Garsecg
United States129 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19366 Posts
On February 27 2015 02:23 Garsecg wrote: Damn, Jaina is awesome! I guess I just kind of glossed over her last week while I was unlocking her talents because I didn't understand her combo/rotation, but after reading Nony's posts and the guide BisuDagger linked, I gave her a spin again and what a difference! There are few pleasures in Heroes that are as satisfying as landing her combo at critical moments. Tons of fun. What I've learned, is that it's as simple as changing just 1 or 2 skills and it completely changes your gameplay experience. That's why I coop every character to 5 and use a different skill tree each match. Afterward I read a guide if any of the curse players have posted one just to get a new perspective. My favorite example is Rehgar: I started playing Rehgar as a support/healer shaman. I was really disappointed I wasn't get huge healing by the end of matches and felt really weak. I found a guide that spec Rehgar out as an assassin and it is the most epic/satisfying build ever! Ghost wolf is so friggin awesome and as someone who played a feral druid in wow, it feels just like ganking noobs in Warsong Gulch! Rehgar guide link: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/13595189529 edit: Also, there are few characters better at taking down merc camps the Rehgar. He's a must have on the pirate map! | ||
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Esoterikk
Canada1256 Posts
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On February 27 2015 02:22 xDaunt wrote: My favorites: Warrior/Tank -- Tyrael: I love his mobility and ability to lock down and annihilate critical elements of the enemy team comp. I think he's underrated as a champ in general. Assassin -- Hammer: Specialist? Haha, bullshit. Her sustained damage is unreal. The only catch is that you need a team that is competent at protecting you. Hammer is particularly good in dual-support comps. Support -- Uther: With all of his CC, Uther is still the most dangerous support out there. I also value burst healing more than the sustained, un-targeted healing that other heroes crap out (ie Brightwing). Specialist -- Zeratul: Yep, I think of Zeratul as more of a specialist than an assassin. He doesn't fill any particular role on the team. He's not a tank. He does not provide sustained DPS. He obviously does not heal. In short, you can't rely upon him to provide any core functions to the team. HOWEVER, he has a particular set of skills that happen to very good at ensuring that people get killed (not just killing them -- there's a difference). So Zeratul is incredibly gifted at sieging, while also having sustained DPS? Otherwise, you're never gonna convince anyone that he's a bloody specialist. He has stealth and a blink away after his double bombs, that's about as assassin-alike as it can get  | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On February 27 2015 02:49 Sponkz wrote: So Zeratul is incredibly gifted at sieging, while also having sustained DPS? Otherwise, you're never gonna convince anyone that he's a bloody specialist. He has stealth and a blink away after his double bombs, that's about as assassin-alike as it can get Haha, fair point. I'm just forcing LoL-style archetypes onto the HotS class system. Bottom line is that Zeratul a complementary pick when it's all said and done, thus I consider him to be a specialist pick, even though his specialty is assassination. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On February 27 2015 02:22 xDaunt wrote: My favorites: Warrior/Tank -- Tyrael: I love his mobility and ability to lock down and annihilate critical elements of the enemy team comp. I think he's underrated as a champ in general. Assassin -- Hammer: Specialist? Haha, bullshit. Her sustained damage is unreal. The only catch is that you need a team that is competent at protecting you. Hammer is particularly good in dual-support comps. Support -- Uther: With all of his CC, Uther is still the most dangerous support out there. I also value burst healing more than the sustained, un-targeted healing that other heroes crap out (ie Brightwing). Specialist -- Zeratul: Yep, I think of Zeratul as more of a specialist than an assassin. He doesn't fill any particular role on the team. He's not a tank. He does not provide sustained DPS. He obviously does not heal. In short, you can't rely upon him to provide any core functions to the team. HOWEVER, he has a particular set of skills that happen to very good at ensuring that people get killed (not just killing them -- there's a difference). Actually Zeratul is literally Assassin, just like Nova and maybe Kerrigan... other ones that are providing sustained dps like Valla/Tychus/Illidan/Raynor/Thrall aren't supposed to be Assassins as they aren't assassinating anybody anytime soon LOL. But these role qualifications are pretty stupid to be honest. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On February 27 2015 00:55 BisuDagger wrote: As long as you constantly remember to kite and move to safe positions in team battles then you will be fine. But if you really want a good guide, I gained a lot from reading this one. http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/guide/team-curse-crs-grim-jaina-dps-guide-475 A lot of my experience goes against the advice in this guide actually. I take a ton of different talents and do a ton of different builds based on map and team comps but... I almost always take Deep Chill. It's funny that for Snowstorm he says no one will get hit by the 2nd wave... well, if you take Deep Chill, it can be unavoidable. Deep Chill is constantly adding so much personal damage and team damage. 25% or 35% is really a big difference for you landing your spells, for completing a chase in a timely manner (how many times do you throw from chasing too far?), and for everyone else on your team to position themselves better relative to the enemy and to land their own skillshots. Trade all that for more range on Q to check bushes and shit? I mean sometimes I wish I had range on Q for a fight, but it can't possibly make as big a difference as Deep Chill in team fights. Deep Chill is also great against the Dragon Knight and Garden Terror. Once you get in range of them you can keep them constantly snared so your team can do way more damage to them than they otherwise would. Pretty sure 25% and 35% is the difference to reliably lock them down and keep your team in range for very high dps uptime. For level 4 talents, keep in mind that increasing radius of Blizzard is effectively increasing its range. A bigger Blizzard adds up to way more damage overall and often is enough to just clip someone to do that last chunk of damage or to apply that critical 35% slow. Really any player who doesn't regularly take Deep Chill cannot properly evaluate Snowstorm. And anyone who hasn't played with Snowstorm a lot doesn't know how often it makes the difference in team fights. When you're pushing a wall, Snowstorm can hit the whole incoming minion wave and both towers at once. Snowstorm does a lot better job of handling unusual formations of minion waves and extra large minion waves as well. And eventually if you take Elemental, which is the best way to get that first chill on people, landing multiple waves of Blizzard happens even more frequently. Frostbitten is the level 7 talent. If he can reliably land Ring of Frost on the people he wants, then that's something I'd have to see and evaluate. I wasn't able to do it solo. With some help from teammates, it could definitely be good and I'd have to revisit it. However I think he underestimates the Elemental. It is huge for the safety of Jaina because it's an instant cast with pretty good range and it's an instant chill and a constant chill as it keeps attacking. You are a million times safer when Elemental is off cooldown. You can duel almost anyone if you use it well. For team fights, you have the choice of casting it in the middle of everyone, where it'll do initial damage and instant chill everyone but also die quickly, or you can cast it on the edge in order to get more damage from it and a constant chill on one enemy. I usually cast it on the edge unless my team has a wombo combo. It's more effective with Deep Chill and Snowstorm is more effective in turn. There's a whole synergy of talents that the guide misses between Deep Chill + Snowstorm + Elemental. Level 13 Icy Veins and Storm Front are the ones I use most often. Storm Front is another talent that gets synergy from Deep Chill and Snowstorm of course. It is really strong poke and a really strong ability for picking people off as they retreat from a fight. It makes it easier to clear waves and push while also staying safe. The choice to get Storm Front is mainly going to be determined by team comps and what you need in a team fight and how much poking and pushing is going on. If everyone is always close to you in a team fight, then Icy Veins is the better option. Icy Veins makes your cooldowns bearable and makes it possible for you to get a 2nd Cone of Cold and eventually a 2nd Blizzard within a reasonable amount of time. If your team is going to die while you Sprint away or sit in Ice Block, then what's the point? Whatever heroes are gonna dive you, your team should have some answers to that. And if they don't -- if you're the designated First Person to Die every fight -- then it's better if you can manage to do all the damage you can. The only time Sprint really is effective is if the heroes diving you have nothing productive to do once you are out of their range. Well, honestly there's a lot more nuance to this but I'm not gonna discuss it endlessly. Pay attention to how the fights go and imagine how they would have went had you taken other options. Of course, you need some experience playing with each talent in order to properly imagine it. Level 16 Northern Exposure is good. Good synergy with Icy Veins, which enables you to get a good 4 seconds duration of it. I think Numbing Blast can also be good, and is what you'd take against an Illidan who always dives you. I would not rely on Q and W to chill Illidan -- let the Water Elemental get that job done. And then you just have to make sure to use Cone of Cold when he's not immune to CC. You'll get some distance and a 2nd root soon with Icy Veins. But if you are taking Ring of Frost, and you can rely on your teammate to help set that up, then Numbing Blast probably isn't necessary. Snow Crash can be good as well, thinking mainly for Wombo Combos and against Sgt Hammer. It's also good for fights that happen in small spaces (like fights around tributes). It can be good for zoning people out. The author of the guide talks about how easy it is to dodge -- well how valuable is it to have a huge area of the team fight where the enemy is unwilling to walk? It's an ability, when placed correctly (which is absolutely easy with Storm Front, not that that's always necessary) that absolutely punishes a team for committing to a fight under it, but also applies a 35% (get Deep Chill plz) slow that lasts for 4 seconds, so how are they just gonna retreat? The 3rd wave isn't always necessary for it to fill that role, but in order to ever see the effectiveness of Snow Crash, you'd have to be doing Deep Chill and Snowstorm in the first place. Anyway, I'd say Northern Exposure is the default choice here. Level 20 Bolt of the Storm seems like the obvious choice if you get Ring of Frost. Well actually I don't know -- I just don't have enough experience with good Ring of Frost usage. But the upgrade to the Elemental, Wintermute, is worth considering. The extra range can be huge for catching people. I mean it's nearly as good at Bolt for catching people except you're not putting yourself at risk. If someone is in range of your vision, you can Elemental them. Keep in mind that you don't need to hit them with the cast of the Elemental. The Elemental has some attack range and gets summoned very quickly so you just need it to be in attack range of your target to get that key first chill. What's really cool though is that you can use the Elemental's Cone of Cold to root people. You can root whole teams. The Elemental will probably quickly die for being cast so aggressively, but it's an option. Anyway, I'd say make your choice based on the enemies' choices. If they all got Bolt and you feel like you need to get Bolt too, then do so. If not, and you've been surviving without it, then don't get it. When you are ganking people, like you know that as soon as they see you their only thought will be survival, you usually want to stay mounted until you are in Cone of Cone range, and then do your combo. You can cast W before E and the cast animations are so fast that your E will hardly come any later than if you casted it first, and it will hit well before the first wave of W comes down, and if they have no dash and you took Blizzard, then both waves of W should hit and of course landing your Q will be easy as hell. I just cast W E Q as fast as possible and then start moving with them and attacking. If they have a dash, just don't bother casting W until after they use it, unless a single wave of W is the difference for getting the kill, although most dashes will avoid W completely. When laning, some people inexplicably stand in their minions. If any opponent has a tendency to do this, then kill the minions and poke the enemy hero at the same time. If you always instantly push the lane with W+E, then you miss the opportunity to punish these idiots. Your default way of starting to attack someone should be Cone of Cold. If they are in range of Cone of Cold or you can safely get them in range, then that's the best way to do it. It is nearly instant and hard to miss. (Of course this rule changes when you get Numbing Blast, in which case your target needs to be chilled for the root to apply.) I've seen a lot of Jainas using Q first or, god forbid, W first. The only situation where you are trying to do a combo and you use W first is when an E is going to immediately follow. The only reason you use Q first is if you're out of range for E or if E is on cooldown. When you get Elemental, usually you are using Elemental first, and you want it to just clip your target so that the elemental is as far away from danger itself. In general you need to take stock of what CC potential and burst potential your enemies have. You can never expose yourself to a situation where it's possible for you to die because the enemy team is always looking to kill you in particular. You have to play safe but you also have to be aware exactly when it is safe for you to be aggressive by spotting when key enemy abilities have already been used on someone else. And when laning and moving around, map awareness is more important because you can be caught so easily. Take safe routes to places if you aren't sure. Avoid laning in mid. Wait for the enemy Nova to pop up in another lane before you harass in your own lane, etc. You don't have the luxury of being able to survive ignorance of that kind of shit. And early on, before you can kill the wave instantly, don't push the lane if there's any chance of you being ganked. Once W+E clears it, and eventually just W clears it, then that's fine -- you get full exp and can go behind your wall or go roam yourself. Finally I'll add that you might encourage your teammates to take Executioner if it's available to them. It's a talent that a lot of people skip over and Jaina with Elemental is pretty much the absolute best way to get use out of it. If you are against a team that relies on their tank to hold the front line, you absolutely will melt them at level 16 when you get Northern Exposure and your ally gets Executioner. Your team has to do nothing but kite back and all attack whoever dares get in range first. Of course there are counters and ways to deal with this, but the point is most people don't understand how the whole team fighting dynamic can change based on Northern Exposure + Executioner. So you have to tell them. | ||
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snailz
Croatia900 Posts
time for someone to html this and add shiny pictures | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19366 Posts
Your build is actually they way I naturally spec'ed out Jaina when I first started playing here. The aoe centric style is super useful to her. However, I would almost bet that the author of the other build also plays Tyrande in a similar fashion.Tyrandes sentinel build is extremely deadly at using projectile/piercing attacks to dish out damage from a distance. In tangent with well placed lunar flare shots you can be force to reckon with. I think that's why I enjoy the author of Jaina's build so much, because its a play style I've been working a lot with. Compare the Frostbolt Jainia to Tyrande here: http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/guide/master-of-vision-a-tyrande-guide-51 | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Jaina has more then one build for burst damage, but each needs certain skills to work. No Idea which one is the better, but I prefer the WE one. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On February 27 2015 02:54 xDaunt wrote: Haha, fair point. I'm just forcing LoL-style archetypes onto the HotS class system. Bottom line is that Zeratul a complementary pick when it's all said and done, thus I consider him to be a specialist pick, even though his specialty is assassination. LOL bro, let's make a new role: Assassin-Specialist Specializing in assassination only | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
But she's definitely seeing more and more play competitively. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
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Fi0na
0 Posts
On February 27 2015 00:55 BisuDagger wrote: As long as you constantly remember to kite and move to safe positions in team battles then you will be fine. But if you really want a good guide, I gained a lot from reading this one. http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/guide/team-curse-crs-grim-jaina-dps-guide-475 actually when I started to play this game (2 weeks ago :p) Jaina was on free rotation, so she was one of the first heroes I played. And funny enough this guide is the only guide I read on the game so far. But while a lot of it is true, I do believe that the suggestions for the talent choices are too narrow-minded. For example the 1 sec root appeared to be much more useful to me than the creator of the guide made it look like. And even the different lvl 1 talents all have their place depending on the game, the enemy team composition and what you are aiming at for a playstyle (and can get away with concerning the mana regeneration and farming caster minions). Then again, I'm just a newbie to this game  | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On February 27 2015 05:18 Diamond wrote: I'm seeing Jaina everywhere in scrims lately as the anti-Illidan. Get the root talent and she wrecks him. That's funny as last night Grubby first-picked Jaina and the other team took Illidan to counter. And his team was flaming him for his dumb pick and he agreed that he got countered. Solo-Q though. | ||
Valiver
Caldeum1977 Posts
As far as Jaina vs Illidan I do think Illidan counters Jaina because of his dashes to ignore your chill effects and dodge attacks. Jaina has to depend on team comp or change her build in response to have any chance. As said earlier Numbing Blast rooting him makes life miserable to jump Jaina. | ||
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DomiNater
United States527 Posts
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Wuster
1974 Posts
I've also seen Sheth play on non-Cloud 9 teams too, so I have no idea how anything works. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19366 Posts
On February 27 2015 10:05 DomiNater wrote: So there's a Team Curse Gaming HotS team? Why didn't they merge with Liquid with the other Curse teams? There is no official team for HoTS right now afaik. | ||
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