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Nothing in DOTA. There's all sorts of stuff to grind in LoL and in most every other game out there.
Yep then nope. Most games - most - do not require you to grind to play the game on normal terms. You do not have to play ten games of tetris before they start giving you 1x4 pieces. You might have to play a lot of games to unlock some funky music track, or in the case of other games, access/beat some optional content. But most of those games aren't multiplayer team games where you are grouped with strangers who are relying on you, and most don't require you to do this grinding iteratively on one fucking character after another (who you have to pay for).
Most games don't have a feature where if you pick a hero during certain weeks everyone will groan at you because that's one of the free heroes that week and probably you're a noob and THEN pile on top of that the fact that your talents are gated.
And don't put words in our mouths. This is one bad design decision, and it's a really stupid one, but it's far from the only point of contention with the design.
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197 Posts
Given this is an alpha where features are more or less in limbo I think it's okay to showcase players frustration with a system that doesn't serve any real purpose. I expect to see a restructuring of how the talents system will work by the time this reaches beta, and I'm also excited to see what blizzard will try next to further evolve their game. You seem to be more annoyed at the complainers, but if you have a reason for liking the talent gates please share.
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I hope you DotA 2 fanboys realize that you have to go through a forced tutorial then level up playing AP games and unlocking all the other game modes slowly before you can actually play the entire game.
Even worse for me because I leveled up in beta and for a while was sitting at lvl 7-8 and getting told that playing AR required level 4.
Yeah, it's not on every hero, but it's still annoying.
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On November 04 2014 09:29 deth2munkies wrote:
I hope you DotA 2 fanboys realize that you have to go through a forced tutorial then level up playing AP games and unlocking all the other game modes slowly before you can actually play the entire game.
Even worse for me because I leveled up in beta and for a while was sitting at lvl 7-8 and getting told that playing AR required level 4.
Yeah, it's not on every hero, but it's still annoying.
1) The tutorial is short. I am not aware of it being mandatory, but if it is it's a mandatory hurdle you have to jump *before playing with other humans* that doesn't make you worse *while playing with other humans*
2) Limited hero pool mode is definitely optional but would be a recommended thing you can do before playing all-pick *with other humans* so you can get a better basic grasp of the game without Faceless Void smurfs making your life a living hell
3) You have to play a certain number of games to get into ranked *with other humans* which helps ensure that one: smurfing is more difficult and two: for those who are not smurfs you must have a minimum amount of experience before you start screwing up *other humans* ranked games and losing them MMR.
In THIS CASE, due to Blizzard's inscrutable fucking design decision, you are forced to play at a disadvantage *with other humans* and it is not optional and you might be the only person in that game playing with that limitation.
It. Is. Indefensible.
[e] Oh right you have to play ten bot matches or something. Once again coming back around to my point where these design decisions are totally, totally different while pursuing, on paper, similar ends.
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Talent gating is bad. It's not only unnecessary but it kills the game on multiple levels.
I level in coop to level 4. It usually takes 6-7 games lasting somewhere around 1~2 hours and feels like an absolute waste of time. Sure, I can just level in versus and it would be faster but it's an issue of courtesy. If I know I will be playing with some handicap (in a lot of cases, it's not about different choices, it's just crappier options), I don't want to burden my team with it. I don't want to lose thinking I couldn't give it my best contribution or win thinking I got carried.
I avoid solo-queue or partial-team-queue versus like the plague at the start of F2P rotations. Just like how I don't want to burden other people with my handicap, it feels incredibly frustrating losing games with clearly talent gated teammates that just drag the team down.
I also politely leave groups whenever someone wants to play a sub-level-4 hero. It's certainly better than the numerous people I've encountered who will ask players playing sub-level-4 heroes to switch heroes and kick them if they don't. Sometimes, amongst friends, someone will sheepishly ask if they can play a low-level hero. It's stupid.
If they round out talents more in the future to have legitimate choices at every tier, then talent locking is reasonable. As it is now, it's a joke.
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Mexico2170 Posts
People overexagerate this talent gating thing, i don't fidn it bad.
Most people say it is in the game because new players are noobs, i don't know who tell you that, but if it was blizzard they lied to you.
They exist to give more rewars, give you something to "grind", to give you more things to achieve, thats the real reason it exist.
Also that:
On November 04 2014 08:14 sushiko wrote:
I dislike the talent gates as well, but it might be there to promote people to play multiple heroes more than once. I don't know why, but every rotation with a new hero I feel the need to get to 4, then to 5 for the 500gold bonus...
And this
it might be there to promote people to play multiple heroes more than once.
i think it will stay until they work in another/better progression system.
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I also think it's a bit over blown but that's not to say I find it an ideal system, I don't really see the point of its existence
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I may never win a game with Illidan. Christ, what a shit hero.
EDIT: Make it 1-8 on my quest to level 5.
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On November 04 2014 13:40 [SXG]Phantom wrote:People overexagerate this talent gating thing, i don't fidn it bad. Most people say it is in the game because new players are noobs, i don't know who tell you that, but if it was blizzard they lied to you. They exist to give more rewars, give you something to "grind", to give you more things to achieve, thats the real reason it exist. Also that: Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 08:14 sushiko wrote:
I dislike the talent gates as well, but it might be there to promote people to play multiple heroes more than once. I don't know why, but every rotation with a new hero I feel the need to get to 4, then to 5 for the 500gold bonus...
I think it encourages the exact opposite. Like I previously said, I've grouped with a lot of people who will flat out insta-kick you from the group if you try to play a sub-level-4 hero. Even amongst friends, we have to apologize for playing a sub-level-4 hero because we know the talent builds are sometimes flat-out horrible. So, how does that promote people to play multiple heroes? It promotes you to invest in playing a hero longer term but I think the incentive for that was already there -- the accumulation of player skill, skins, a little gold, and mount variations. So, it serves no purpose in that regard.
Daily quests fill that function much more successfully but also suffers from some of the same problems.
And, like I said, every time I pick-up a new hero to play, I have to go through the 4 level grind to unlock talents. Having to play through some abysmal choices really makes it a tedious and unappealing process.
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On November 04 2014 09:29 deth2munkies wrote:
I hope you DotA 2 fanboys realize that you have to go through a forced tutorial then level up playing AP games and unlocking all the other game modes slowly before you can actually play the entire game.
Even worse for me because I leveled up in beta and for a while was sitting at lvl 7-8 and getting told that playing AR required level 4.
Yeah, it's not on every hero, but it's still annoying.
Actually the tutorial is not forced. You can skip it with a simple console command if you bother to research anything, which makes it optional.
The only reason you can't play ranked right away is because the system wants to find out what level you play at and balance games accordingly over ruining 9 other players experience.
On the other hand, I can't help despise every game where I play against other players and if we pick the same thing, there could be a possible discrepancy between my power and their power from outside influences. Talent gating is one of those things. It would be like playing starcraft and being able to meet others who has the expansion while you don't, so they have units you can't make.
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New rotation:
Nazeebo
Lili
Kerrigan
E.T.C
Arthas
Tychus
Stitches
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hoped for zeratul or nova so i can test them and spread the cancer ;/
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I agree with most of the people here, talent gating has to go. It's counter-productive, and if you ask me, even hinders the advantage that is the short duration of every game. Sure, the game you'll play will only last 20 minutes, but when you know the hero you're playing is totally gimped without those advanced and expert talents, it just blows.
I understand where Blizzard is coming from, it does give a sense of progression, but it's poorly executed. You want people to feel as though they are progressing? Introduce more skins and mounts. Or better yet, introduce more gold thresholds for different levels. You only get 500 gold for leveling a hero to 5, and then it's over.
Meanwhile, the price of most heroes in gold is still around 10k, and that takes a long while to grind. If they're going to keep the current prices, then they should replace talent gating with gold grinding through hero levels. It would make so much more sense: it would remove what likely is the most frustrating thing about the game right now, and it would still give a sense of progression. Not to mention the fact that the only reward you get for getting a hero to 10 is the ability to buy the master skin, which itself costs 10k (unless I'm mistaken, you don't get gold, right?). Yeah, you are unlocking the right to pay for something. I don't know about others, but put like that, I find it ludicrous. Especially when leveling a hero past 6-7 takes so long.
On the plus side, when a lot of the community complained about the system they used prior to talent gating, they went ahead and removed it. Given that the overwhelming majority wants it to go, it just might go. Then again, Blizzard has a tendency of doing what they want... But eventually, they do listen.
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If anything progression outside of an actual matchshould be purely aesthetical... Can still, like you said Spaylz, give the feeling of progression just like everything else and it is also not annoying anyone.
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On November 04 2014 09:13 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +Nothing in DOTA. There's all sorts of stuff to grind in LoL and in most every other game out there. Yep then nope. Most games - most - do not require you to grind to play the game on normal terms. You do not have to play ten games of tetris before they start giving you 1x4 pieces. You might have to play a lot of games to unlock some funky music track, or in the case of other games, access/beat some optional content. But most of those games aren't multiplayer team games where you are grouped with strangers who are relying on you, and most don't require you to do this grinding iteratively on one fucking character after another (who you have to pay for).
This is nonsense. Almost every game in existence forces you to go through tutorials or restricts game mechanics during the first single player levels.
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Northern Ireland22207 Posts
On November 04 2014 19:58 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 09:13 FHDH wrote:Nothing in DOTA. There's all sorts of stuff to grind in LoL and in most every other game out there. Yep then nope. Most games - most - do not require you to grind to play the game on normal terms. You do not have to play ten games of tetris before they start giving you 1x4 pieces. You might have to play a lot of games to unlock some funky music track, or in the case of other games, access/beat some optional content. But most of those games aren't multiplayer team games where you are grouped with strangers who are relying on you, and most don't require you to do this grinding iteratively on one fucking character after another (who you have to pay for). This is nonsense. Almost every game in existence forces you to go through tutorials or restricts game mechanics during the first single player levels.
Yeah, like that starcraft game where I couldn't just jump straight into online matchmaking without any restrictions??
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On November 04 2014 20:08 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2014 19:58 Grumbels wrote:On November 04 2014 09:13 FHDH wrote:Nothing in DOTA. There's all sorts of stuff to grind in LoL and in most every other game out there. Yep then nope. Most games - most - do not require you to grind to play the game on normal terms. You do not have to play ten games of tetris before they start giving you 1x4 pieces. You might have to play a lot of games to unlock some funky music track, or in the case of other games, access/beat some optional content. But most of those games aren't multiplayer team games where you are grouped with strangers who are relying on you, and most don't require you to do this grinding iteratively on one fucking character after another (who you have to pay for). This is nonsense. Almost every game in existence forces you to go through tutorials or restricts game mechanics during the first single player levels. Yeah, like that starcraft game where I couldn't just jump straight into online matchmaking without any restrictions??
I don't know if talent gating is a good idea, but let's not act like there isn't ample precedent for restricting game mechanics in virtually every game in history. The entire HotS business model revolves around trickling access to heroes for that matter.
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Played this a bit now (~30 games).
First impressions:
- Game runs and feels smooth. Heroes are fun to control.
- I think the game should better emphasize how important creature camps and objectives are, and how stupidly useless it is to stay in lane alone. 5 manning seems to be the only way to go. Newer players who stand in the fountain for too long can ruin a game very fast. I'd say even more so than in DotA.
- As in other MOBA: Big comebacks are rare. Snowball effect is strong. Despite the team level mechanics which leads to the team power levels often being similar. I feel this is because the team that can establish map control early will get the next couple of camps and objectives without competition. Which leads to further map control, and more camps and objectives etc. That said, I have been in a couple of comeback games, and they have been the most fun games so far.
- Pretty sure Tassadar is the best hero. He has two of the best survivability skills in the game, one which he can put on an ally. Great utility with his fifth spell (vision and detection). Insane damage in 5v5 with double storms. Great ultimate which gives him even more damage and survivability. Storm is optimal spell vs objective creatures. And when he has double storm he can clear hard camps very fast.
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Well, he did kill the Overmind. He's a damn hero!
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lol good point, btw nazeebo seems sick tried him 1st time and did twice as much dmg as anybody in the game
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EPT
