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On September 17 2014 10:02 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 08:20 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, no game has needed voice chat more than this one IMO (well, maybe Counter-Strike). It's so incredibly team based with a fair amount of twitch and reaction time. I think that competitive play is about 20% mechanics and 80% shot calling, whereas that ratio is much more tipped in favor of mechanics in other MOBAs.
That said, everything has a downside. Playing HoN again taught me that voice chat is something 13 year old trolls really love to abuse. Can you explain how mechanics matter more in Dota/LoL teamfights than in HotS? They all seem pretty much the same in teamfights with Dota being the hardest since it's much harder to stutter step in Dota than in LoL or HotS. edit: and that could just be because my ping is constantly 100+ in Dota but under 60 in the other games.
Attack animations and turn speed are much, much better in this game than the others. It's a lot easier to orb attack and last hit if you get that talent. Speaking of, you don't have to last hit, you don't have to stack jungle, you don't have to go all the way back to base to heal all the time (fountains + good healing skills), you don't have to manage courier/wards/items.
While not really micro, I consider all of those mechanics.
Additionally, skillshots are often much more forgiving, and being caught is much less punishing. You die a lot slower on average in HotS than in DotA or LoL.
The thing that's different is shot calling. In DotA/LoL, people can stay in their lanes, win them, and snowball that into winning the game. Winning your lane means almost nothing in HotS because other map objectives matter. Knowing when to take them, when to teamfight, when to play safe, and when to push is more important because there are less other things to think about and much less an individual can do.
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On September 17 2014 10:48 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 10:02 Cheren wrote:On September 17 2014 08:20 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, no game has needed voice chat more than this one IMO (well, maybe Counter-Strike). It's so incredibly team based with a fair amount of twitch and reaction time. I think that competitive play is about 20% mechanics and 80% shot calling, whereas that ratio is much more tipped in favor of mechanics in other MOBAs.
That said, everything has a downside. Playing HoN again taught me that voice chat is something 13 year old trolls really love to abuse. Can you explain how mechanics matter more in Dota/LoL teamfights than in HotS? They all seem pretty much the same in teamfights with Dota being the hardest since it's much harder to stutter step in Dota than in LoL or HotS. edit: and that could just be because my ping is constantly 100+ in Dota but under 60 in the other games. Attack animations and turn speed are much, much better in this game than the others. It's a lot easier to orb attack and last hit if you get that talent. Speaking of, you don't have to last hit, you don't have to stack jungle, you don't have to go all the way back to base to heal all the time (fountains + good healing skills), you don't have to manage courier/wards/items. While not really micro, I consider all of those mechanics. Additionally, skillshots are often much more forgiving, and being caught is much less punishing. You die a lot slower on average in HotS than in DotA or LoL. The thing that's different is shot calling. In DotA/LoL, people can stay in their lanes, win them, and snowball that into winning the game. Winning your lane means almost nothing in HotS because other map objectives matter. Knowing when to take them, when to teamfight, when to play safe, and when to push is more important because there are less other things to think about and much less an individual can do.
Thats weird - The main reason why I stopped playing HotS is because auto attack just felt wrong and clunky. It just felt.. not consistant.
Also, I kinda dislike how its always like minions or cannon or a giant plant that actually destroys the base - feels like you just run around and do stuff, but never really attack their base.
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On September 17 2014 10:48 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 10:02 Cheren wrote:On September 17 2014 08:20 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, no game has needed voice chat more than this one IMO (well, maybe Counter-Strike). It's so incredibly team based with a fair amount of twitch and reaction time. I think that competitive play is about 20% mechanics and 80% shot calling, whereas that ratio is much more tipped in favor of mechanics in other MOBAs.
That said, everything has a downside. Playing HoN again taught me that voice chat is something 13 year old trolls really love to abuse. Can you explain how mechanics matter more in Dota/LoL teamfights than in HotS? They all seem pretty much the same in teamfights with Dota being the hardest since it's much harder to stutter step in Dota than in LoL or HotS. edit: and that could just be because my ping is constantly 100+ in Dota but under 60 in the other games. Attack animations and turn speed are much, much better in this game than the others. It's a lot easier to orb attack and last hit if you get that talent. Speaking of, you don't have to last hit, you don't have to stack jungle, you don't have to go all the way back to base to heal all the time (fountains + good healing skills), you don't have to manage courier/wards/items. While not really micro, I consider all of those mechanics. Additionally, skillshots are often much more forgiving, and being caught is much less punishing. You die a lot slower on average in HotS than in DotA or LoL. The thing that's different is shot calling. In DotA/LoL, people can stay in their lanes, win them, and snowball that into winning the game. Winning your lane means almost nothing in HotS because other map objectives matter. Knowing when to take them, when to teamfight, when to play safe, and when to push is more important because there are less other things to think about and much less an individual can do.
I agree with most of this but IIRC turn speed is faster (instant) in LoL, and IMO most of the new LoL champs have very good attack animations even compared to HotS.
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On September 17 2014 10:59 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 10:48 deth2munkies wrote:On September 17 2014 10:02 Cheren wrote:On September 17 2014 08:20 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, no game has needed voice chat more than this one IMO (well, maybe Counter-Strike). It's so incredibly team based with a fair amount of twitch and reaction time. I think that competitive play is about 20% mechanics and 80% shot calling, whereas that ratio is much more tipped in favor of mechanics in other MOBAs.
That said, everything has a downside. Playing HoN again taught me that voice chat is something 13 year old trolls really love to abuse. Can you explain how mechanics matter more in Dota/LoL teamfights than in HotS? They all seem pretty much the same in teamfights with Dota being the hardest since it's much harder to stutter step in Dota than in LoL or HotS. edit: and that could just be because my ping is constantly 100+ in Dota but under 60 in the other games. Attack animations and turn speed are much, much better in this game than the others. It's a lot easier to orb attack and last hit if you get that talent. Speaking of, you don't have to last hit, you don't have to stack jungle, you don't have to go all the way back to base to heal all the time (fountains + good healing skills), you don't have to manage courier/wards/items. While not really micro, I consider all of those mechanics. Additionally, skillshots are often much more forgiving, and being caught is much less punishing. You die a lot slower on average in HotS than in DotA or LoL. The thing that's different is shot calling. In DotA/LoL, people can stay in their lanes, win them, and snowball that into winning the game. Winning your lane means almost nothing in HotS because other map objectives matter. Knowing when to take them, when to teamfight, when to play safe, and when to push is more important because there are less other things to think about and much less an individual can do. I agree with most of this but IIRC turn speed is faster (instant) in LoL, and IMO most of the new LoL champs have very good attack animations even compared to HotS.
Go play Annie again, I dare you.
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On September 17 2014 11:15 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 10:59 Cheren wrote:On September 17 2014 10:48 deth2munkies wrote:On September 17 2014 10:02 Cheren wrote:On September 17 2014 08:20 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, no game has needed voice chat more than this one IMO (well, maybe Counter-Strike). It's so incredibly team based with a fair amount of twitch and reaction time. I think that competitive play is about 20% mechanics and 80% shot calling, whereas that ratio is much more tipped in favor of mechanics in other MOBAs.
That said, everything has a downside. Playing HoN again taught me that voice chat is something 13 year old trolls really love to abuse. Can you explain how mechanics matter more in Dota/LoL teamfights than in HotS? They all seem pretty much the same in teamfights with Dota being the hardest since it's much harder to stutter step in Dota than in LoL or HotS. edit: and that could just be because my ping is constantly 100+ in Dota but under 60 in the other games. Attack animations and turn speed are much, much better in this game than the others. It's a lot easier to orb attack and last hit if you get that talent. Speaking of, you don't have to last hit, you don't have to stack jungle, you don't have to go all the way back to base to heal all the time (fountains + good healing skills), you don't have to manage courier/wards/items. While not really micro, I consider all of those mechanics. Additionally, skillshots are often much more forgiving, and being caught is much less punishing. You die a lot slower on average in HotS than in DotA or LoL. The thing that's different is shot calling. In DotA/LoL, people can stay in their lanes, win them, and snowball that into winning the game. Winning your lane means almost nothing in HotS because other map objectives matter. Knowing when to take them, when to teamfight, when to play safe, and when to push is more important because there are less other things to think about and much less an individual can do. I agree with most of this but IIRC turn speed is faster (instant) in LoL, and IMO most of the new LoL champs have very good attack animations even compared to HotS. Go play Annie again, I dare you.
Annie, Ashe, most of the 2009 and 2010 champs are pretty awful, but Caitlyn for example has a buttery smooth animation. And she's not new at all.
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On September 17 2014 11:17 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 11:15 deth2munkies wrote:On September 17 2014 10:59 Cheren wrote:On September 17 2014 10:48 deth2munkies wrote:On September 17 2014 10:02 Cheren wrote:On September 17 2014 08:20 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, no game has needed voice chat more than this one IMO (well, maybe Counter-Strike). It's so incredibly team based with a fair amount of twitch and reaction time. I think that competitive play is about 20% mechanics and 80% shot calling, whereas that ratio is much more tipped in favor of mechanics in other MOBAs.
That said, everything has a downside. Playing HoN again taught me that voice chat is something 13 year old trolls really love to abuse. Can you explain how mechanics matter more in Dota/LoL teamfights than in HotS? They all seem pretty much the same in teamfights with Dota being the hardest since it's much harder to stutter step in Dota than in LoL or HotS. edit: and that could just be because my ping is constantly 100+ in Dota but under 60 in the other games. Attack animations and turn speed are much, much better in this game than the others. It's a lot easier to orb attack and last hit if you get that talent. Speaking of, you don't have to last hit, you don't have to stack jungle, you don't have to go all the way back to base to heal all the time (fountains + good healing skills), you don't have to manage courier/wards/items. While not really micro, I consider all of those mechanics. Additionally, skillshots are often much more forgiving, and being caught is much less punishing. You die a lot slower on average in HotS than in DotA or LoL. The thing that's different is shot calling. In DotA/LoL, people can stay in their lanes, win them, and snowball that into winning the game. Winning your lane means almost nothing in HotS because other map objectives matter. Knowing when to take them, when to teamfight, when to play safe, and when to push is more important because there are less other things to think about and much less an individual can do. I agree with most of this but IIRC turn speed is faster (instant) in LoL, and IMO most of the new LoL champs have very good attack animations even compared to HotS. Go play Annie again, I dare you. Annie, Ashe, most of the 2009 and 2010 champs are pretty awful, but Caitlyn for example has a buttery smooth animation. And she's not new at all.
Cait is about equal to every hero in HotS, which is the point.
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On September 17 2014 03:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 03:15 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
is that so hard to click 4 times on the ignore buttons in the tab panel ? I also think a mute chat button would be nice but meh, 4 buttons is not too much. If I have to do it every game, yep, its a pain in the ass. I prefer to have total control over who does or does not talk to me. And I have no problem with zero cross team chat. It really doesn't add that much.
There's a world of difference between "there should be an option to leave chat" and "there should be no chat" (which some people have been pushing for). I also don't see an option on Dota 2 to leave chat. Although I'm fine with such an option in HotS.
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On September 17 2014 03:43 Serejai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 03:02 NonY wrote:
People ought to have a right to speak to each other if they both consent but people also ought to have a right to silence. As a person who prefers silence, all the attention and effort put into making the talkers' experience better vexes me, especially when a simple option of turning off all chat isn't implemented. People talk about the devs building systems and hiring an army of customer service employees when no one has even bothered to implement an "off" switch? It's not like multiplayer game code automatically sprouts chat rooms. They had to go out of their way to program some shit irrelevant to the game. I play games to play games. I understand some people want it to simultaneously be a social experience but that is not the core of the experience. In order to play Heroes or SC2 I have to subject myself to whatever some random person wants to say to me. It's a ridiculous annoyance, all the more annoying because it's so minor and so easily fixed.
Also can I get a fucking minimap in the same place it's at in SC2. Holy shit. The opposite is also true; where is the voice chat? In a game that is so focused on team play there are shockingly few good ways to actually communicate with your teammates. Typing is not an option during a fight, and pinging can convey a target to attack but doesn't really help with combining skill shots, which is ultimately 90% of the skill in the game. The voice chat system is already there, too; it's just not enabled (and honestly if they haven't turned it on after six months they probably don't plan to at all). Amusingly enough having chat in the game doesn't actually do anything beneficial. It's either used to talk shit to your teammates (seems to be what most people use it for), or not used at all. You don't have time to use it during teamfights (when communication is most vital) and any other time you can convey everything with pings. I would love it if they removed chat altogether and instead replaced it with voice chat that could be toggled on and off. People who prefer to play in silence could do so, and people who want a viable way to communicate in pugs could have that as well. Also on the subject of ignore/blocking people after a match... I really wish they would make it so that blocked players can't join a game with you anymore. Pretty much every other game I can think of does this; if you block another player they won't be placed on your team anymore. It kinda defeats the purpose of me blocking some intentionally-feeding prick that ran his mouth off all game if the matchmaking system is just going to put him on my team again two games later. This happened with me and ZeromuS last week and was really unfortunate. Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 03:15 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote:
is that so hard to click 4 times on the ignore buttons in the tab panel ? I also think a mute chat button would be nice but meh, 4 buttons is not too much. If they could find the time to create an ignore system that can mute on an individual level then they certainly have time to implement a DND feature, and in all honesty the latter should have been first.
They really should implement voice chat. It's running the SC2 engine, which has voice chat. So it should be just a matter of flicking a switch.
Also, I don't think they intend block to be a list of people who you rate are bad (and therefore don't want to get matched with) or are good (so you don't want to get match to). I suppose high MMR players would then be able to block other high MMR players. Block is about blocking communication.
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Also, with the patch last week, it seems that my attack on last hitting has been successful in getting seasoned marksman changed. Once again, we can celebrate the non-inclusion of last hitting in HotS.
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I'm sure you are the sole and only reason they made that change, paralleluniverse.
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It has more to do with the fact that, unlike DotA and LoL, it is almost impossible to get every last hit in a wave due to how fast the minions die due to their low health pools (especially the healing one). The fact that you aren't relying on it for gold makes it less important, but it still was harder to pull off in HotS than in any other MOBA. Add to it the fact you aren't laning for a majority of the game and you have all the elements of a useless talent.
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On September 17 2014 10:44 Plansix wrote:(and if you asked the community, they would beg for region locked servers by IP).
Vocal minority.
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On September 17 2014 10:48 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 10:02 Cheren wrote:On September 17 2014 08:20 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, no game has needed voice chat more than this one IMO (well, maybe Counter-Strike). It's so incredibly team based with a fair amount of twitch and reaction time. I think that competitive play is about 20% mechanics and 80% shot calling, whereas that ratio is much more tipped in favor of mechanics in other MOBAs.
That said, everything has a downside. Playing HoN again taught me that voice chat is something 13 year old trolls really love to abuse. Can you explain how mechanics matter more in Dota/LoL teamfights than in HotS? They all seem pretty much the same in teamfights with Dota being the hardest since it's much harder to stutter step in Dota than in LoL or HotS. edit: and that could just be because my ping is constantly 100+ in Dota but under 60 in the other games. Attack animations and turn speed are much, much better in this game than the others. It's a lot easier to orb attack and last hit if you get that talent. Speaking of, you don't have to last hit, you don't have to stack jungle, you don't have to go all the way back to base to heal all the time (fountains + good healing skills), you don't have to manage courier/wards/items. While not really micro, I consider all of those mechanics.
Stacking jungle, pulling and farming are all shots that you need to call. If you are farming on a lane, you are not ganking, if you are stacking you are not smoking mid. If you are pulling you are not babysitting. And there is no mechanical skill required to pull or stack.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
i fuck up pulling all the time
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On September 17 2014 21:07 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 10:48 deth2munkies wrote:On September 17 2014 10:02 Cheren wrote:On September 17 2014 08:20 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, no game has needed voice chat more than this one IMO (well, maybe Counter-Strike). It's so incredibly team based with a fair amount of twitch and reaction time. I think that competitive play is about 20% mechanics and 80% shot calling, whereas that ratio is much more tipped in favor of mechanics in other MOBAs.
That said, everything has a downside. Playing HoN again taught me that voice chat is something 13 year old trolls really love to abuse. Can you explain how mechanics matter more in Dota/LoL teamfights than in HotS? They all seem pretty much the same in teamfights with Dota being the hardest since it's much harder to stutter step in Dota than in LoL or HotS. edit: and that could just be because my ping is constantly 100+ in Dota but under 60 in the other games. Attack animations and turn speed are much, much better in this game than the others. It's a lot easier to orb attack and last hit if you get that talent. Speaking of, you don't have to last hit, you don't have to stack jungle, you don't have to go all the way back to base to heal all the time (fountains + good healing skills), you don't have to manage courier/wards/items. While not really micro, I consider all of those mechanics. Stacking jungle, pulling and farming are all shots that you need to call. If you are farming on a lane, you are not ganking, if you are stacking you are not smoking mid. If you are pulling you are not babysitting. And there is no mechanical skill required to pull or stack.
Plenty of mechanical skill necessary to stack and pull. People tend to forget that the only reason DotA's absolutely shitty control scheme/turn speed/etc. is acceptable is because we've been using it for 8+ years and gotten used to it. Even keeping track of the timing necessary is a mechanical skill.
Shot calling RE: ganks is pretty much the only thing you do early game in a DotA game, but later in the game, the only shots that need to be called are when to teamfight, when to Rosh, and when to split. In any given game of HotS, depending on the map, you have 2 or 3 other options that you have to consider (mercs, coins, mines, plants, etc.). Teamfights are also typically much longer thanks to how prevalent healing is in HotS, meaning one wombo combo means a lot less and consistency in hitting skillshots and positioning correctly is more important.
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Yeah, pulling isn't blink micro, but its still challenging to do if you want to do multiple camps or you are under any pressure at all. The phrase mechanical skill is super vague and almost meaningless, but people throw it around all the time. If you need to practice it a lot, its hard to do. And pulling in dota in each specific scenario takes a lot of practice to do constantly.
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On September 17 2014 21:53 deth2munkies wrote:later in the game, the only shots that need to be called are when to teamfight, when to Rosh, and when to split.
That's way over simplified. Just the call of where to farm, where is safe to go ward, and the time for the smoke. And there there is all the tactic involved in fights.
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On September 17 2014 21:55 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, pulling isn't blink micro, but its still challenging to do if you want to do multiple camps or you are under any pressure at all. The phrase mechanical skill is super vague and almost meaningless, but people throw it around all the time. If you need to practice it a lot, its hard to do. And pulling in dota in each specific scenario takes a lot of practice to do constantly.
It's more about knowledge than mechanical skill. Different camps/ creeps have different interactions. A stacked camp have a smaller timing window, etc. Multiple stacks also have a more restricted timing window. But even if you consider everything, you only need 2 clicks to stack, or 3 if you are doing a multiple stack and therefore need to use an ability. It's doable with a foot.
It need practice because it needs experience in the timings windows (is the timing of this camp at 52 or 54?), not because it is mechanically hard.
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On September 17 2014 22:01 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 21:55 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, pulling isn't blink micro, but its still challenging to do if you want to do multiple camps or you are under any pressure at all. The phrase mechanical skill is super vague and almost meaningless, but people throw it around all the time. If you need to practice it a lot, its hard to do. And pulling in dota in each specific scenario takes a lot of practice to do constantly. It's more about knowledge than mechanical skill. Different camps/ creeps have different interactions. A stacked camp have a smaller timing window, etc. Multiple stacks also have a more restricted timing window. But even if you consider everything, you only need 2 clicks to stack, or 3 if you are doing a multiple stack and therefore need to use an ability. It's doable with a foot. It need practice because it needs experience in the timings windows (is the timing of this camp at 52 or 54?), not because it is mechanically hard.
Unless you are doing a pull through, trying to pull the hard camp on the dire side up to the fight, you are under pressure from the off laner trying to fuck up your pull. And you only get one shot and if you don't, you have wasted nearly a full minute in game. And if you think you can do that well and efficiently with your foot, I think you are oversimplifying things.
But yes, stacking a single camp is not hard(unless its the camp with the healers, fuck those guys), just like blinking up a cliff is not hard. Both involve 1-2 clicks. But thats not what happens in high skill matches, they do so much more with their time.
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There's almost no mechanical skill required in HotS, or any MOBA for that matter. This isn't SC2 where you micro 100 units while macroing with 10 production buildings at the same time.
In a MOBA, you control 1 unit, with at most 4 active abilities, which typically have a 10 second cooldown, meaning that you will at most use like 0.4 actions per second in casting spells. Sure, you might do some clicking to move around or auto-attack, but the mechanical skill required is very, very low. Indeed, the genre was initially popularized by people who lacked the mechanical skills to play WC3. 3 heroes and 20 unit armies was too hard mechanically, 1 single hero is easier for them.
HotS is about skill in making the right decisions as a team, e.g. to get objectives, or push, or to get mercenary camps or to fight, and having the skill to win team fights against the opponent by landing skill-shots, having correct positioning, and engaging and picking off the opponents at the right time.
On September 17 2014 19:21 Spaylz wrote:
I'm sure you are the sole and only reason they made that change, paralleluniverse.
It doesn't really matter whether or not I was the sole reason for the change.
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