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16987 Posts
On July 15 2009 04:44 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2009 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 14 2009 13:12 Lemonwalrus wrote:
Replace 'how much money you are willing to shell out into buying the cards' with 'how much apm you have' and you will see why your argument is just something someone unacquainted with a game would say as a detractor.
And yes, you said you have played yugioh, but you played yugioh on the same level as somebody who played the single player missions has 'played starcraft', your opinion on the professional level of the game carries no weight. That is complete bullshit. Your APM is directly proportional to your mechanical skill in the game, while the amount of money that you shell out to get better has nothing to do with skill. What it means is someone who's rich and mediocre can still beat someone who could be fantastic and knows every tactic and strat behind the game but doesn't have the money to back it up. Furthermore, if you can't see why a card game can't be taken as a SERIOUS competitive sport (due to the fact that drawing cards is innately random and goes against the competitive spirit, unless you stack your deck), then you're fucking blind. The more tournaments you win the more money you get, with more money you can buy better cards therefore More money = more skill, oh btw regarding the "card game cannot be considered a competitive sport" statement, Elky will prolly visit you later tonight...
I think he means trading card games, not conventional card games.
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On July 15 2009 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Furthermore, if you can't see why a card game can't be taken as a SERIOUS competitive sport (due to the fact that drawing cards is innately random and goes against the competitive spirit, unless you stack your deck), then you're fucking blind.
While I can't speak for yugioh, I played magic: the gathering semi-competitively for a few years and find myself disagreeing strongly with this. While no one could deny that card games are inherently luck-based, there is still a large amount of skill involved. Just like in poker, you'll find that while the game itself is based in probability, the better players will consistently beat the lesser skilled ones. If you doubt how SERIOUS a competitive sport a trading card game can be, I encourage you to checkout magicthegathering.com or starcitygames.com (a teamliquid equivalent). The competitive magic scene is much more organised and professional than (though I don't mean to detract from it) the foreign starcraft scene.
As for the cost of cards, I do agree that it is an unfortunate entrance barrier to the game and one of the main reasons I stopped playing magic. Starcraft and computer games in general are more egalitarian in that as long as you can afford the game, your skill is dependent only on your genes and your determination to get better. That being said, it's important to realise that at the higher levels of competitive TCG play, all the players have access to the "best" cards because they are willing to pay the hundreds/thousands of dollars for them. At this level, the differences in power level of individual cards is moot.
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Yeah I also played magic competitively and the randomness is an unfortunate consequence of playing a card game. The thing is, good players spend a LOT of time balancing their decks perfectly so that their mana base compliments the threats and you don't end up getting mana screwed more than like 5% of the time or less.
As for having to buy the good cards, it's also the reason I quit. It's just ridiculous having to shell out all the money for the good cards. However, some tournaments (specifically type one tournaments, which feature the really old, rare, expensive cards) actually let you use fake cards in place of the real ones. Usually they'll put a limit on the amount of the fake cards that you can use, but it's almost always enough for you to avoid having to shell out hundreds and hundreds of dollars on just a few cards.
Of course, you don't always need to spend money to get the good stuff. A lot of the good stuff I came across back in the day was through trading.
That said, I wouldn't consider trading card games as legitimate a "sport" as some video games, including starcraft. They're more like an extra-competitive casual game with huge rewards for top players.
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"im not much of a gamer my self"
"The last game I played was pong"
"in tokyo, games are everywhere"
Hey buddy, just wanted to ask u.. DONT U MEAN SEOUL
They dont even have a game list
Starcraft/War3/CS 1.6 isnt even mentioned. AT ALL. if he saw billboards, there would be atleast an scv... or SOMETHING... jeez >.>
this wil fail. usually my feelings are right
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On July 15 2009 04:56 etch wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2009 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Furthermore, if you can't see why a card game can't be taken as a SERIOUS competitive sport (due to the fact that drawing cards is innately random and goes against the competitive spirit, unless you stack your deck), then you're fucking blind. While I can't speak for yugioh, I played magic: the gathering semi-competitively for a few years and find myself disagreeing strongly with this. While no one could deny that card games are inherently luck-based, there is still a large amount of skill involved. Just like in poker, you'll find that while the game itself is based in probability, the better players will consistently beat the lesser skilled ones. If you doubt how SERIOUS a competitive sport a trading card game can be, I encourage you to checkout magicthegathering.com or starcitygames.com (a teamliquid equivalent). The competitive magic scene is much more organised and professional than (though I don't mean to detract from it) the foreign starcraft scene. As for the cost of cards, I do agree that it is an unfortunate entrance barrier to the game and one of the main reasons I stopped playing magic. Starcraft and computer games in general are more egalitarian in that as long as you can afford the game, your skill is dependent only on your genes and your determination to get better. That being said, it's important to realise that at the higher levels of competitive TCG play, all the players have access to the "best" cards because they are willing to pay the hundreds/thousands of dollars for them. At this level, the differences in power level of individual cards is moot.
true at a higher level the players have access to the cards but as a casual competitive game it pales due to the fact money is a huge factor in getting the cards.
with poker there is the luck factor but there is so much more to it than that. at the higher levels poker becomes less based on luck and more onto reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks. this is why poker can become more well known and popularized by our society. TCG games are fun however.
i guess u can compare WoW to sc like comapring TCGs with poker. WoW is time and money consuming but it is fun and takes some level some competition whereas SC requires high mechanics, strategies and what not.
TCGs are like WoW in the sense u gotta dedicate money and time to it and they are fun but lack some elements that make it competitve. and as i said before the way yugioh is going makes it so u must buy more booster packs from the new generation because all my ultra rares from way back when are crap compared to some new cards ive seen which arent even rares
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Lol if the main organizer knows nothing about games and is just in it for money then that sums up what will happen with the organization.
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Sounds like the PGA (pro gamer assoc), for those who were around to remember that. That went nowhere.
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If it would work and not a way to steal US-teens 10 Dollars it would be a good thing for esports...
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I don't know about Yu-Gi-Oh, but I guarantee that the barrier for entry for Magic the Gathering is lower then that of Poker. Especially if you are talking Type 2 (newer sets only) or Sealed play.
On July 15 2009 05:34 Stratos.FEAR wrote:
with poker there is the luck factor but there is so much more to it than that. at the higher levels poker becomes less based on luck and more onto reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks. this is why poker can become more well known and popularized by our society. TCG games are fun however.
Your speaking like two players play in an their own isolated game and not against each other. Even at low levels of play (where I play at) bluffing, reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks is all a part of Magic the Gathering.
Deck building doesn't detract from strategy it adds on to it. Since to predict players hands, when you don't know their exact deck build, you have to have a deeper understanding of the meta game.
I'm not gonna argue whether or not MTG is a sport (or e-sport for that matter), but I will argue that it is just as competitive as Poker or Starcraft is.
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On July 15 2009 05:34 Stratos.FEAR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2009 04:56 etch wrote:On July 15 2009 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Furthermore, if you can't see why a card game can't be taken as a SERIOUS competitive sport (due to the fact that drawing cards is innately random and goes against the competitive spirit, unless you stack your deck), then you're fucking blind. While I can't speak for yugioh, I played magic: the gathering semi-competitively for a few years and find myself disagreeing strongly with this. While no one could deny that card games are inherently luck-based, there is still a large amount of skill involved. Just like in poker, you'll find that while the game itself is based in probability, the better players will consistently beat the lesser skilled ones. If you doubt how SERIOUS a competitive sport a trading card game can be, I encourage you to checkout magicthegathering.com or starcitygames.com (a teamliquid equivalent). The competitive magic scene is much more organised and professional than (though I don't mean to detract from it) the foreign starcraft scene. As for the cost of cards, I do agree that it is an unfortunate entrance barrier to the game and one of the main reasons I stopped playing magic. Starcraft and computer games in general are more egalitarian in that as long as you can afford the game, your skill is dependent only on your genes and your determination to get better. That being said, it's important to realise that at the higher levels of competitive TCG play, all the players have access to the "best" cards because they are willing to pay the hundreds/thousands of dollars for them. At this level, the differences in power level of individual cards is moot. true at a higher level the players have access to the cards but as a casual competitive game it pales due to the fact money is a huge factor in getting the cards. with poker there is the luck factor but there is so much more to it than that. at the higher levels poker becomes less based on luck and more onto reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks. this is why poker can become more well known and popularized by our society. TCG games are fun however. i guess u can compare WoW to sc like comapring TCGs with poker. WoW is time and money consuming but it is fun and takes some level some competition whereas SC requires high mechanics, strategies and what not. TCGs are like WoW in the sense u gotta dedicate money and time to it and they are fun but lack some elements that make it competitve. and as i said before the way yugioh is going makes it so u must buy more booster packs from the new generation because all my ultra rares from way back when are crap compared to some new cards ive seen which arent even rares
The fact that yugioh costs more to play than BW does not make it a bad or non-competitive game. The original argument is about whether yugioh is a legit competitive game that requires skill to win, not whether it requires way more money than it's worth (which it undoubtedly does. If you wanna play for free, btw, just use the yugioh virtual desktop. Back when I played there was even an online ladder that I held a consistent top 10 position on).
You say that "at the higher levels poker becomes less based on luck and more onto reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks". What you don't seem to realise or admit is that the exact same thing is true of yugioh. When you are playing at the highest levels of yugioh, you know after a couple turns what kind of deck your opponent is playing, virtually all the cards in that deck, and how he is going to try to win with them. From there it's all about anticipating plays, reading your opponent's style, calculating likelihoods of draws in both decks, running risk vs reward analyses on traps and face-downs, and even making bluffs. A good yugioh players is thinking several turns ahead. If you really think yugioh is just playing the cards that you draw then you were a scrub player who lost to kids like me. And I'm not even touching the skill involved in deck design (which I was never much good at).
I'm not going to say that yugioh requires as much skill as poker. I know for sure that it doesn't reward skill as much as poker. That's because of the design of the games, particularly the fact that in in the earlier stages of a game of poker you can fold without committing anything to a hand. This allows you to play poker far more conservatively than you can play yugioh, making the game take longer and giving the players more chances for their skill to reward them. In yugioh there is no such ability to 'opt out' and be safe from damage. Even if you draw the yugioh equivalent of a 2-7, you have to commit something to the field and try to play from your inferior position. If you try to wait it out and hope for a better draw next time, you better be ready to lose a chunk of lifepoints. The game atmosphere is somewhat similar to heads-up poker with really high antes. You can choose to wait for a better hand, but you are forced to lose a large chunk of your stack. You are gonna have to play eventually, good cards or not, and the sooner the better.
So this got a bit ramblomatic. In a gesture towards not derailing the thread, I was thinking about the WWFOG thing earlier and the LO3 episode where Slasher (I think) was saying he didn't even believe this was a real guy. And you know, with the 10 dollar registration fee, that seems like a real possibility =/. He can't have invested much money yet (all the expensive stuff is "coming in 2010!"), so if he was to manage to get a few thousand people to register for the cost of one website... well that'd be some pretty easy money.
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If Starcraft isn't mentioned its useless in my eyes.
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On July 15 2009 06:23 Mullet_Power wrote:I don't know about Yu-Gi-Oh, but I guarantee that the barrier for entry for Magic the Gathering is lower then that of Poker. Especially if you are talking Type 2 (newer sets only) or Sealed play. Show nested quote +On July 15 2009 05:34 Stratos.FEAR wrote:
with poker there is the luck factor but there is so much more to it than that. at the higher levels poker becomes less based on luck and more onto reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks. this is why poker can become more well known and popularized by our society. TCG games are fun however. Your speaking like two players play in an their own isolated game and not against each other. Even at low levels of play (where I play at) bluffing, reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks is all a part of Magic the Gathering. Deck building doesn't detract from strategy it adds on to it. Since to predict players hands, when you don't know their exact deck build, you have to have a deeper understanding of the meta game. I'm not gonna argue whether or not MTG is a sport (or e-sport for that matter), but I will argue that it is just as competitive as Poker or Starcraft is.
yes holyshit magic cards takes WAY more skill than yugioh, stupid nerds and their flashy monsters... what are they? recruiting 12 year old pros?
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~_~'s first image blocked this but I just noticed.
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you mean it's not called "Street Fighting"?
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Yeha probably that 
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I read the responses that I have accrued since my last post, but others have already responded to them as well or better than I could.
Edit: Removed douchiness.
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Ok given there are some points on how competitive a TCG can be (since that is what we are debating and the other factors are not as relevant) i just want to say this: would you watch a televised event of a TCG that you have never played? sure there can be commentators but then there are card effects and what not which the average person will not understand. and also given on how many ppl cannot comprehend the simple game rules even after being explained (think to yugioh when ur in school and everyone tries to summon blue eyes white dragon without two tribute cards) i think it will be extremely difficult to make it a truly competitive e sport where ppl will watch.
side thought: LOL we need those duel things that bring the cards to life!!!!!!111
thats one argument many have used to back sc as one of the best e sports to televise because it is easy to watch and follow through. poker has the simplicity factor in it when watching because...well all they need to show is 2 cards to the viewers lol but tbh i would rather much be playing poker than watching it
@ the pic posted: i think the federation needs a street fighting champ to kick the asses of cheaters just in case
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Wong, Yipes and Sabin... T_T
I wonder if WC people are laughing their asses off at this.
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On July 16 2009 01:42 Stratos.FEAR wrote:Ok given there are some points on how competitive a TCG can be (since that is what we are debating and the other factors are not as relevant) i just want to say this: would you watch a televised event of a TCG that you have never played? sure there can be commentators but then there are card effects and what not which the average person will not understand. and also given on how many ppl cannot comprehend the simple game rules even after being explained (think to yugioh when ur in school and everyone tries to summon blue eyes white dragon without two tribute cards) i think it will be extremely difficult to make it a truly competitive e sport where ppl will watch. side thought: LOL we need those duel things that bring the cards to life!!!!!!111 thats one argument many have used to back sc as one of the best e sports to televise because it is easy to watch and follow through. poker has the simplicity factor in it when watching because...well all they need to show is 2 cards to the viewers lol but tbh i would rather much be playing poker than watching it @ the pic posted: i think the federation needs a street fighting champ to kick the asses of cheaters just in case
That's a good point, considering a lot of cards have effects that search other cards that have different effects. It gets really hard for someone that's not hardcore into it to figure out what's going on and why the player is randomly picking cards out of his deck. I enjoy playing the video games, and it gets harder to get into the new games because it takes me like, 3 hours to read all the card effects to even have a vague comprehension of what my opponent is doing to me
I just wanted to clear up that while yes, there is some luck factor in what you draw in Yugioh, it's not a lot. Yes, you can have some dead draws where you can do absolutely nothing no matter how good your deck is, but in a bo series, it balances out. Well built decks run very consistently and a lot of modern decks can consistently bring out their winning combo in a matter of a few turns better than 90% of the time. So yes, you can lose to a dead draw in one duel, but it happens rarely and it's rare to lose a bo series solely based on dead draws
As for the new cards > old cards: well, yes and no. Yes in that you need new cards to compete, but no in that new cards aren't better than old cards necessarily. Its just that over time lots of new cards come out, so the player has lots more choices to make when constructing a deck. A whole bunch of the good old cards are banned from play because they are too good (for example pot of greed). A new deck would cream an old deck, but that's not because the individual cards are stronger, it's because there's so much more support for the different themes that you can have much better synergy between your cards
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I have MtG pro points, and play it whenever possible, all peoples complaints about the game itself are created out of preconceived notions that WotC does not understand nor address properly.
It's the best game ever made, and you can play it in many, many ways. Some expensive, some not. People who claim it's expensive don't look around enough, people who claim it isn't strategic are like terran turtles in SC who call you a noob because they were the last player on your team to die, they don't experience the game enough to pass judgement on why it's popular.
Like SC, you can't learn MtG in a day, or a week, or a year. It's a slow process to understanding what's good and what isn't. You need to play it, or you won't ever get any good, and you won't ever understand why it's a good game. Get some friends, borrow the cards you need, start by making a cheaper deck, read StarCity, and have fun. Who cares if you're putting shit on the battlefield, exiling dragons, drawing from the library, and countering spells? It's dorky, but who cares, it's the best game ever made, and closed minded people who categorically refuse to play because they don't put the effort into learning how are the real losers, here.
That being said, I've watched the live commentary at the actual pro tour, cameras above the pro players tables and all, and yeah, they need to figure out a way to do that better... :/
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i30.tinypic.com/2jdrgqa.jpg)
