So apparently this guy named Michael A. Winchester has founded an official professional gaming league here in the U.S.A. called the "Worldwide Federation of Gaming". He says its going to be like the NFL.
Here is a video of an interview done at e3:
After watching that video, I have concluded that dude is just looking for a capitalistic venture into ESPORTS*BOOM* hoping to make some money with pretty much no experience in the industry.
Anyways, here is their website: http://wwfog.com/ (If your up for a laugh go to "search members" and check out some of the people part of this)
Apparently this is backed by Twin Galaxies and over 200 pro gamers. Notable names include Justin Wong and ifc.Yipes as well as Empire Arcadia founder Triforce Gamemaster. + Show Spoiler [Picture of Triforce Gamemaster] +
Anyways, after poking around on their website I found that you can pay 10 dollars for a yearly membership to access their forum and give feedback and stuff as well as a chance to get "drafted" onto a pro team. Sounds like some serious bullshit to me.
Dj Wheat's show Live on 3 covered some of this nonsense also. They talked about how this is some complete bullshit and have no idea what their doing. Segment starts at 39:30
Honestly, I think this thing is just going to epic fail into oblivion once it starts (if it even does that). This whole thing sounds shady, and came from a guy that no one has even heard of prior to this whole thing. Also, the fact that when you google "worldwide federation of gaming" their official website doesn't show up makes it even more shady. I just hope that nothing happens with this that will prevent *real* U.S.A. progaming endeavors in the future.
On July 08 2009 14:13 Kennigit wrote: I look at that guy talking and all i can think of is Ted Owen from GGL...God they are going to make quadrillions of Ansadi dollars
After watching that King of Kong documentary, Twin Galaxies makes me giggle.
Kennigit, can we make our own Master of the Universe Super-duper Series of World Video Games? You can be Dictator for Life and I'll be Executive of All That is Important. We can charge 10 bucks for people to read another part of TL and be drafted onto our "proteam".
this guy has a very poor understanding of what makes esports business models successful
without a single game to hold everything together, you can't hold fan interest. starcraft worked, a multi-gaming league with teams made of gamers from all genres will fail.
On July 08 2009 14:29 MK wrote: lol Justin Wong... all I can remember is Daigo killed him (1) and he never learns so he've been killed once again (2) :/
Actually Justin Wong himself went to japan and beat Daigo something like 10-4 with boxer vs daigo's ryu, if he could have switched to boxer during the gamestop tournament he would have but he couldn't due to rules. This could be a rumor though. None the less Daigo is the best fighting game player of all time.
Anyways, It's going to be hard to support so many games but it's good to see people trying to make e-sports something in America. It's only a matter of time before it takes off in my eyes. (as in the release of SC2 probably lol)
On July 08 2009 14:34 MK wrote: oh, and have you ever heard about bringit ? seems to be in the same trend of "eSport firms"
Right now there are two people on the bringit forums, with an all-time high of... 16. It doesn't seem to be making a lot of buzz. The guy who posted after the article you linked to basically outlined why the costs of running online betting outweigh the the profit growth.
I totally agree with Steve though. It has to start with a single game, and a single platform. There is too much to cover if you go for all platforms and 30 games. It becomes very difficult to market without a large staff and budget.
its funny that he thinks people will pay money to play in ranking tournaments for a chance to be 'drafted'. these teams are gonna suck so hard it's ridiculous & as soon as people like justin wong figure out that he has to be at a certain venue for this retarded league rather than at a major sf4 tournament winning a shitload of cash, he'll drop out, and so will everyone else.
no foresight, no idea what they're doing. i bet the leagues will be run like shit, too
They've talked about this a bit on Live On Three (DjWheat's show) and have come to the conclusion that his guy isn't real. He is actually a fictional person.
On July 08 2009 14:34 MK wrote: oh, and have you ever heard about bringit ? seems to be in the same trend of "eSport firms"
Right now there are two people on the bringit forums, with an all-time high of... 16. It doesn't seem to be making a lot of buzz. The guy who posted after the article you linked to basically outlined why the costs of running online betting outweigh the the profit growth.
I totally agree with Steve though. It has to start with a single game, and a single platform. There is too much to cover if you go for all platforms and 30 games. It becomes very difficult to market without a large staff and budget.
it becomes a gimmick basically
"gaming" is not the draw. the idea of people playing video games is not what makes esports possible, it's the games and the players themselves. they have their own playerbase and fans, esports has to start there or it fails 100% of the time
I wonder what would happen if someone created a business and only took advice from TL and followed everything that was said to him by the regulars here.
Creating a global eSport league is like creating a Sport league with FIFA+NBA+NHL+NFL+...etc.
I wonder what would happen if someone created a business and only took advice from TL and followed everything that was said to him by the regulars here.
hmm, it would be KESPA ? :p
seriously, just wondering : don't you guys think that eSport could be an industry ? I mean, could it be like NBA or FIFA or whatever big classic sport leagues ?
I went to the site and wanted to leave a message saying "hey, have you checked out the single biggest progaming scene in the world (StarCraft in South Korea) and learn how they work?" But to do that I need to register that requires me to pay $10! So I didn't.
StarCraft league in S. Korea was started by a producer at a TV station, but successful eSports nowadays I feel will start from Internet..(I mean, we talk here online and watch games online..and TSL was a good attempt).
South Korea is a small country with loads of people (50 - 60 million) so it is easier to build a concentrated audience than it is globally where loads of people are all over the place. But obviously development in Internet should help.
Monetary incentives did help and might help in the future. I once watch a video where NaDa talks about the new game - Avalon - made by his company WeMade. And I was like "what a f--king great way for a game company to introduce new games to gamers" (yes, Avalon MSL too). In this respect, I'm having some hope in the prospect of Blizzard running leagues.
On July 08 2009 15:15 sky_slasher wrote: I went to the site and wanted to leave a message saying "hey, have you checked out the single biggest progaming scene in the world (StarCraft in South Korea) and learn how they work?" But to do that I need to register that requires me to pay $10! So I didn't.
StarCraft league in S. Korea was started by a producer at a TV station, but successful eSports nowadays I feel will start from Internet..(I mean, we talk here online and watch games online..and TSL was a good attempt).
South Korea is a small country with loads of people (50 - 60 million) so it is easier to build a concentrated audience than it is globally where loads of people are all over the place. But obviously development in Internet should help.
Monetary incentives did help and might help in the future. I once watch a video where NaDa talks about the new game - Avalon - made by his company WeMade. And I was like "what a f--king great way for a game company to introduce new games to gamers" (yes, Avalon MSL too). In this respect, I'm having some hope in the prospect of Blizzard running leagues.
SC worked because it was new and had a fanatical fanbase
this wont work because its neither of those things ^_^
Just kidding, seriously he didn't even mention specific games or anything, Oh fucking awesome 18 man pro teams AND THEY CAN MOTHER FUCKING TRADE HOLY FUCKING SHIT.
So what, how the fuck are they supposed to play each other? Are we going to have starcraft "pros" playing Guitar Hero "pros" on Sega Genesis Aladdin? Yeah that was cool for about 5 minutes on that scifi WCG show, until Incontrol got kicked out and nobody gave a shit anymore.
I was going to make a picture, but decided it wasn't worth the time or effort since by the time I make it his entire organization probably would of went under.
On July 08 2009 16:02 zatic wrote: Told you about it weeks ago Kennigit. This has almost endless ESPORTS drama potential.
I love the "backed by 200 pro gamers". I think you can safely translate this to "I have talked to 2 sponsored gamers".
Also funny side note: His business plan is to sell the whole thing in three years and make millions. This can't fail!
Well the "200 pro gamers" obviously means the members of Twin Galaxies who have been awarded certificates for high scores in games like Q-Bert and Marble Madness.
seriously, just wondering : don't you guys think that eSport could be an industry ? I mean, could it be like NBA or FIFA or whatever big classic sport leagues ?
Esports is too broad. NBA does basketball, FIFA does football, F1 does racing, Esports does...?
Blah, complete bullshit imo. They're creating a Gaming Federation, but if it's not focused on a certain game, their "200 pro gamers" won't be enought to actually run a league.
haha how funny is this thing really. lets say one of there 30 games was BWs. Would anyone here pay 10$ to see Justin Wong play fucking BWs? He a god damn fighting game pro. Wtf would he know about BWs? It be like everyone paying 10$ to watch me play BWs. By the same token would anyone want to see Wong beat the shit out of like Boxer in a SF4 match? Who the hell will pay 10$ to see a bunch of pros play video games they have littil to no experience in at a mediocre level
There is a reason almost every gaming league in the US has failed so far. The only big one to have success if MLG and frankly, I doubt the UFG is going to change that at all.
On July 08 2009 16:41 Bearigator wrote: There is a reason almost every gaming league in the US has failed so far. The only big one to have success if MLG and frankly, I doubt the UFG is going to change that at all.
uh, CPL is US no ? And it was pretty successful, right ?
On July 08 2009 16:43 MK wrote: uh, CPL is US no ? And it was pretty successful, right ?
I probably should have been more clear, I was referring to companies which hold tournaments in the US only. CPL held tournament world wide. From what I can tell, it sounds like this is going to be US only (for now at least), so I did not feel CPL was a fair comparison.
More importantly though, CPL shut down. It was back in 07 or 08 I think when there were top teams saying that the CPL was not paying up on the prize money. Unless they came back (possible I guess), CPL is no longer really in the discussion.
This guy is a fucking idiot... He doesn't even mention specific games... And the "200 progamers" are just kids who think they are good because they can beat single player games, probably never even played competitively...
On July 08 2009 14:34 MK wrote: oh, and have you ever heard about bringit ? seems to be in the same trend of "eSport firms"
Right now there are two people on the bringit forums, with an all-time high of... 16. It doesn't seem to be making a lot of buzz. The guy who posted after the article you linked to basically outlined why the costs of running online betting outweigh the the profit growth.
I totally agree with Steve though. It has to start with a single game, and a single platform. There is too much to cover if you go for all platforms and 30 games. It becomes very difficult to market without a large staff and budget.
it becomes a gimmick basically
"gaming" is not the draw. the idea of people playing video games is not what makes esports possible, it's the games and the players themselves. they have their own playerbase and fans, esports has to start there or it fails 100% of the time
You really tell the truth, most of all in this sentence: "the idea of people playing video games is not what makes esports possible, it's the games and the players themselves".
This guy cant be serious..."He says its going to be like the NFL." please, the shit is going to die out faster than the XFL. Some of these games possibly run longer than most American runtimes (with little to no commercial breaks) allow, so, unless there is a lot of money coming in from sponsors then there is no possible way this can work.
One last thing that just brings my piss to a fine boil is that guy with the Power Glove. It's overused, it doesn't make you badass and the peripheral sucked badly. That's like if I were to construct a crazy gauntlet out of parts of an Atari Jaguar.
wtf is this bullcrap ? xD dude seriously but i dont think that this is going to succeed . And this interview is just gold - "we r gonna have 4 quarters with brake after the 2nd quarter and cheerleaders and ... "
On July 08 2009 23:41 K_ Takahashi wrote: This guy cant be serious..."He says its going to be like the NFL." please, the shit is going to die out faster than the XFL. Some of these games possibly run longer than most American runtimes (with little to no commercial breaks) allow, so, unless there is a lot of money coming in from sponsors then there is no possible way this can work.
One last thing that just brings my piss to a fine boil is that guy with the Power Glove. It's overused, it doesn't make you badass and the peripheral sucked badly. That's like if I were to construct a crazy gauntlet out of parts of an Atari Jaguar.
sorry for being noob but... what is a power glove ? Oo
I don't get that Triforce guy-thing-whatever.. I mean, the whole idea that other people want to actually somehow be involved or associated with him in any way just seems wrong somehow.
On July 09 2009 01:07 Motiva wrote: lol I wish him moderate success Just enough success so someone reasonable sees that it is possible and that it could work
On July 09 2009 01:07 Motiva wrote: lol I wish him moderate success Just enough success so someone reasonable sees that it is possible and that it could work
On July 08 2009 14:54 MK wrote: seriously, just wondering : don't you guys think that eSport could be an industry ? I mean, could it be like NBA or FIFA or whatever big classic sport leagues ?
I think is posible, but you would need games specifically designed to be a competitive sport, not just common games with a competitive side, so that they would have a lot of skill requirements and even most important, they would be easy to understand and fun to watch.
On July 09 2009 01:11 Radivel-X17 wrote: I don't get that Triforce guy-thing-whatever.. I mean, the whole idea that other people want to actually somehow be involved or associated with him in any way just seems wrong somehow.
That sounds about right.
I don't think anyone outside of Empire Arcadia actually likes the guy.
what the fuck was that?! I loved how he was talking total bullshit and the girl with the mike was awarding him with the WTF face expression. This will become like the myspace of gaming or smth, well maybe the analogy is bad but my point is, nobody will care about it but the ones who do, will take it very seriously like the guys who make the "pro starcraft micro on FMP" videos on youtube.
On July 08 2009 19:45 zatic wrote: Haha the interview is so great. He can't even tell Japan apart from Korea.
You guy need to listen to DJ Wheat's post E3 LiveOn3 casts, it's so funny what they tell about the guy.
link?
It's in the OP. After listening to the Wheat radio show, I am even more confused. If it is true what this Mr. Winchester told these guys and he is investing $500.000 into this with the aim of selling it after three years, then this is going to fail epically. So very much that I think I need to get involved in this and get a piece of the pie as consultant or advisor. LOL
On the other hand, some of the gamers already backing WWFOG must be able to positively contribute to the development of this league, or not?
He is a rich musician trying to get some more money. When he was at vacation he saw that there actually was sponsors for professional gamers, sponsors means money. Now he is trying to do the same in USA, so he too can get more money. Only problem he doesn't know SHIT about what he is doing.
I love how the website will provide everything important for pro gamers, like recruiting to teams, get into random leagues(wtf?) and downloading music (double wtf?)
EDIT: funny how he has mistaken game genres with game platforms (arcade, PC, etc)
On July 14 2009 05:00 {88}iNcontroL wrote: hope this does well.. rob was talking to me about this a LONG time ago.
More attention/money in gaming CAN be a good thing if done right
It has yet to be done right. Terrible leagues like this, that will almost surely go belly up after one season, (maybe not, but I'm not optimistic) do far more harm then good. After the advertisers and sponsors get burned with lackluster numbers, it will just further deter the corporate video game world from putting money into these for gamers by gamers leagues.
Which gamers btw? I am a competitive gamer and I didn't get a say. I'm pretty sure yu gi oh is not for me by me.
I only care about starcraft (1, i don't give a damn about sc2 which will suck in comparison) and cs 1.6. It will be so awesome if these game swill be in the solid league. I would also love to see fighting games, Tekken 6br and SF3ts to be exact.
These games are the best esports games.
If they fuck up with disciplines - wow, halo, source, etc, it's useless to even try, it'll fail.
Any game that has prize money has people who are professionals playing only that, how is this surprising to a community that supports a 10 year old video game that has next to no money at all in non-Korean tournaments?
It would be funny to see Barcelona CF compete against Boston Red Socks and LA Lakers, etc, playing rugby, field hockey and water polo against each other. But it will get boring quickly.
If this is supposed to be a US progaming association, why is it then called the "Worldwide Federation of Gaming"? Why not something like USeSPA, NeSL or even NAeSA if you want to throw in Canada and Mexico into the mix? No offence, but that is just ridiculous.
Besides, as much as people tend to hate WCG, it is still an already established international e-Sports organisation (and originally created in South Korea, the cradle of e-Sports, no less) It even has it`s own theme song. Why would we need yet another such organisation?
On July 14 2009 06:16 heyoka wrote: Any game that has prize money has people who are professionals playing only that, how is this surprising to a community that supports a 10 year old video game that has next to no money at all in non-Korean tournaments?
The problem is when the prize money goes to competitive gamers who are forced to play non-competitive games because 'that's where the competition is'.
Who should decide which games are competitive enough to be worthy of a professional scene? Should it be some jackass non-gamer with a lot of money taking suggestions from whoever signs up for his scam first? Or should it be the gamers themselves, us, the community that follows our individual games?
If a game is just bad, then a community will never develop, and a professional scene will never come into existence. Good games, on the other hand, harbor good communities. These communities already exist. Why not throw prize money at these communities, and let them battle it out their own way? All we need is the prize and the publicity, we already have everything else.
Picking games to be competitive for any reason other than the fact that they are good, tested, balanced games that are also fun to watch pros play is a bad move.
Anyway I've jumped off topic of the response I wanted to post, but I also want to agree that e-sports, like regular sports, should be developed in a game-by-game basis. I would consider myself a huge e-sports fan. But I would never, EVER watch e-sports competitions of games I don't play. I don't play CS, so I'll never watch CS, and any competition involving CS would lose my interest before they can make money back advertising to me. The problem is there is a conflict of interest whenever there is a multi-game competition. Community members are individually part of a handful of gaming audiences, each audience is game specific, so why try to mold all of it together?
It's not rocket science, the same idea applies to traditional sports. You'd never see a competition where one minute a team is playing another team in football and the next they're playing basketball.
This worries me Not because it's going to die really fast, I know that But because after all these failed projects and leagues, who's honestly going to take Esports seriously outside of Korea? People are going to think that it just doesn't work; When really there's just a right way and a wrong way to do it.
Unfortunately 'gaming' and 'pro gaming' are very two different things. This guy just wants to throw a bunch of nerds in a room with a bunch of random games and have us watch who's the best at whatever. There's no room to sit and hone your skills for specific games, which is what makes for interesting matches for the audience to spectate. Not to mention the games have to be spectator friendly in the first place... I just don't see anyone having a good time watching Guitar Hero 3 being played (the sad part is that I'm probably wrong... I've heard of Guitar Hero 3 pro gamers?)
On July 14 2009 11:41 Lemonwalrus wrote: I don't play yugioh, but I just love how followers of professional sc shit all over the idea of professional yugioh.
Hypocrites.
yugioh is mostly luck dependent and how much you are willing to shell out into buying the cards.
On July 14 2009 06:16 heyoka wrote: Any game that has prize money has people who are professionals playing only that, how is this surprising to a community that supports a 10 year old video game that has next to no money at all in non-Korean tournaments?
The problem is when the prize money goes to competitive gamers who are forced to play non-competitive games because 'that's where the competition is'.
Who should decide which games are competitive enough to be worthy of a professional scene? Should it be some jackass non-gamer with a lot of money taking suggestions from whoever signs up for his scam first? Or should it be the gamers themselves, us, the community that follows our individual games?
If a game is just bad, then a community will never develop, and a professional scene will never come into existence. Good games, on the other hand, harbor good communities. These communities already exist. Why not throw prize money at these communities, and let them battle it out their own way? All we need is the prize and the publicity, we already have everything else.
Picking games to be competitive for any reason other than the fact that they are good, tested, balanced games that are also fun to watch pros play is a bad move.
Anyway I've jumped off topic of the response I wanted to post, but I also want to agree that e-sports, like regular sports, should be developed in a game-by-game basis. I would consider myself a huge e-sports fan. But I would never, EVER watch e-sports competitions of games I don't play. I don't play CS, so I'll never watch CS, and any competition involving CS would lose my interest before they can make money back advertising to me. The problem is there is a conflict of interest whenever there is a multi-game competition. Community members are individually part of a handful of gaming audiences, each audience is game specific, so why try to mold all of it together?
It's not rocket science, the same idea applies to traditional sports. You'd never see a competition where one minute a team is playing another team in football and the next they're playing basketball.
this is because these things are typically started by some old businessmen trying to cash in on a fad who think all video games are the same thing.
On July 14 2009 06:24 LosingID8 wrote: "establish the first governing body of competitive gaming"
maybe someone should tell him about kespa (along with whatever else is out there)
maybe he knows and wants to form the first democratic governing body of competitive gaming ... because we all know the bloc that KeSPA would fall into.
On July 14 2009 11:41 Lemonwalrus wrote: I don't play yugioh, but I just love how followers of professional sc shit all over the idea of professional yugioh.
Hypocrites.
yugioh is mostly luck dependent and how much you are willing to shell out into buying the cards.
Extremely skilled yugioh players will tend to win tournaments or at least place highly in them. Perhaps not as consistently as in Starcraft, but consistently enough that you cannot simply call yugioh 'luck dependent'. I used to play weekly in local tournaments at my city's card shop; $5 entry fee with the money being split among the top three finishers. It was basically free money for me because there was only one other kid who was playing at my skill level.
Anyways, theres not much more to say about how bad this WWFOG idea is and how certainly it's going to tank. It's trying to be way too much, way too soon.
On July 14 2009 11:41 Lemonwalrus wrote: I don't play yugioh, but I just love how followers of professional sc shit all over the idea of professional yugioh.
Hypocrites.
yugioh is mostly luck dependent and how much you are willing to shell out into buying the cards.
Do you not see how similar that is to what an NFL fan that doesn't respect starcraft would say about starcraft? Seriously?
On July 14 2009 11:41 Lemonwalrus wrote: I don't play yugioh, but I just love how followers of professional sc shit all over the idea of professional yugioh.
Hypocrites.
yugioh is mostly luck dependent and how much you are willing to shell out into buying the cards.
Do you not see how similar that is to what an NFL fan that doesn't respect starcraft would say about starcraft? Seriously?
So you are saying I shouldn't bash on Yu-Gi-Oh because I don't understand the game, like how an NFL fans bash on Starcraft and may not understand it? Before you start assuming things, I have played Yu-Gi-Oh before, maybe not serious enough to be entering tourneys but I did play it for a while when I was 12-13 years old (lol). The reason I say its luck dependent is because it depends on the cards you draw, which comes from your deck. Now yes people will say "your deck is how you build it, and better plays will build a better deck", but in Yu-Gi-Oh some cards are just better than others, these "staple" cards are in every half decent deck. Thus leaving not alot of room for variety, and if you decide to build your deck around a dragon theme its going to be very similar to the next guy who builds a dragon theme, because like I said some cards are just better. The cards also progressively gets better each new booster pack, which is basically why I stopped playing Yu-Gi-Oh. To stay competitive you literally are forced to buy new cards. (when I played Yu-Gi-Oh a 4 star monster had 1600 attack max, and when I stopped keeping up with Yu-Gi-Oh cards 4 star monsters had 1900 attack).
Basically what I am saying is I can't respect a game where new cards coming out keeps being better than older ones, atleast in magic you can build a decent deck using old cards and play it against someone with new cards. In Yu-Gi-Oh you can't, unless of course the old card is one of those "staple" cards.
On July 14 2009 11:41 Lemonwalrus wrote: I don't play yugioh, but I just love how followers of professional sc shit all over the idea of professional yugioh.
Hypocrites.
yugioh is mostly luck dependent and how much you are willing to shell out into buying the cards.
Do you not see how similar that is to what an NFL fan that doesn't respect starcraft would say about starcraft? Seriously?
So you are saying I shouldn't bash on Starcraft because I don't understand the game, like how an Soccer fans bash on The NFL and may not understand it? Before you start assuming things, I have played Starcraft before, maybe not serious enough to be entering tourneys but I did play it for a while when I was 12-13 years old (lol). The reason I say its luck dependent is because it depends on the units you build, which comes from your race. Now yes people will say "your race what you choose, and better plays will not play protoss", but in starcraft some units are just better than others, these "staple" unites are in every half decent matchup. Thus leaving not alot of room for variety, and if you decide to Overpool its going to be very similar to the next guy who Overpools, because like I said some units are just better. The units also progressively gets better each new expansion, which is basically why I stopped playing starcraft. To stay competitive you literally are forced to buy broodwar. (when I played starcraft a 125 mineral unit did 20 damage (Dragoon), and when I stopped keeping up with starcraft 125 mineral units did 40 damage and were invisible).
Basically what I am saying is I can't respect a game where new units coming out keeps being better than older ones.
On July 14 2009 11:41 Lemonwalrus wrote: I don't play yugioh, but I just love how followers of professional sc shit all over the idea of professional yugioh.
Hypocrites.
yugioh is mostly luck dependent and how much you are willing to shell out into buying the cards.
Do you not see how similar that is to what an NFL fan that doesn't respect starcraft would say about starcraft? Seriously?
So you are saying I shouldn't bash on Starcraft because I don't understand the game, like how an Soccer fans bash on The NFL and may not understand it? Before you start assuming things, I have played Starcraft before, maybe not serious enough to be entering tourneys but I did play it for a while when I was 12-13 years old (lol). The reason I say its luck dependent is because it depends on the units you build, which comes from your race. Now yes people will say "your race what you choose, and better plays will not play protoss", but in starcraft some units are just better than others, these "staple" unites are in every half decent matchup. Thus leaving not alot of room for variety, and if you decide to Overpool its going to be very similar to the next guy who Overpools, because like I said some units are just better. The units also progressively gets better each new expansion, which is basically why I stopped playing starcraft. To stay competitive you literally are forced to buy broodwar. (when I played starcraft a 125 mineral unit did 20 damage (Dragoon), and when I stopped keeping up with starcraft 125 mineral units did 40 damage and were invisible).
Basically what I am saying is I can't respect a game where new units coming out keeps being better than older ones.
I lol'd at this response because its so bad. When people play Starcraft they all get to use the same units each time and thats different from Yu-Gi-Oh, where in Yu-Gi-Oh if you don't want to buy new cards you can't play competitively, and the people that can afford the cards often think they are the better player.
So my response is bad because it shows how dumb all but one of the lines in your argument are?
I'll admit that the cost of new cards is a barrier to entry for new players, but that wasn't your main point, or at least I assume it wasn't because it was relegated to one sentence and one parenthetical aside at the bottom of the paragraph.
Also, as I feel it is hard to be sure with text, just for everyone's information, I am not attacking Shivaz personally, nor do I mean to come off as a dick, and if either of those seem to be the case I apologize.
My original post was "yugioh is mostly luck dependent and how much you are willing to shell out into buying the cards. "
Which was back up by my other post where i said it is luck dependent because there is almost no variety in deck building so most decks are the same, therefore a lot of it depends on luck whether you draw the card you needed or your opponent does. My second point regarding the money is pretty self explanatory because newer cards are better.
Of course there is some skill involved in Yu-Gi-Oh I am not taking that away from it, but as a professional esport that is a joke.
Replace 'how much money you are willing to shell out into buying the cards' with 'how much apm you have' and you will see why your argument is just something someone unacquainted with a game would say as a detractor.
And yes, you said you have played yugioh, but you played yugioh on the same level as somebody who played the single player missions has 'played starcraft', your opinion on the professional level of the game carries no weight.
You don't have to be a "professional" yugioh player to understand the amount of luck involved, and that is why its different from starcraft. In starcraft everything is in your own control where when you lose there is nothing to blame but yourself. This is why it is hard to accept it as a professional esport because of that luck/variance which may determine the outcome of a game. Also please don't use build orders in starcraft as the "luck" factor involved in starcraft or poker for that matter, because they are both bad arguments.
You can't say don't use the argument that counters yours because 'it is a bad argument.' It isn't a bad argument.
Luck is a built in factor in all 3 games you mentioned, period.
I will agree that there is probably a smaller random luck factor in starcraft than there is in Yugioh, but that doesn't mean Yugioh is throwing dice.
The whole point is that due to randomization each game is different, and you have to use what you draw to find a way to defeat your opponent. Yes, every once in a while a game will be played where one deck just outdraws the other, but that is why tournaments generally aren't Bo1.
On July 14 2009 13:12 Lemonwalrus wrote: Replace 'how much money you are willing to shell out into buying the cards' with 'how much apm you have' and you will see why your argument is just something someone unacquainted with a game would say as a detractor.
And yes, you said you have played yugioh, but you played yugioh on the same level as somebody who played the single player missions has 'played starcraft', your opinion on the professional level of the game carries no weight.
I guess our conflict is due to the luck threshold involved, which is a subjective matter. Personally for me there is too much of that in Yu-Gi-Oh and it is different from your view.
Multigaming networks can work, imo, but the specialization still needs to exist, as it is with tv stations like ESPN. Yeah, people who are sports fans in general can get coverage of everything, but people who are only fans of one thing can get their fix too. That way you can get as much draw as possible.
I'm not sure how it works abroad but in America I think that's the way to do it.
So basically he's spent the money on patenting stupid trademarks and catchphrases, using the names of professional gamers that a large chunk of the world doesn't care much about and building a fancy, largely empty website. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
I'd have used that budget to sign agreements with most big name companies out there that have had games in arguably major tournaments over the past years, building a functional, glitter-free website with lots of streaming bandwidth, and of course prizes for initial competitions.
On July 14 2009 13:12 Lemonwalrus wrote: Replace 'how much money you are willing to shell out into buying the cards' with 'how much apm you have' and you will see why your argument is just something someone unacquainted with a game would say as a detractor.
I don't really understand how this is a valid point at all. As far as I can see, what you are saying is like...one factor to being good at starcraft is having a high APM.....and one factor to being good at Yu-gi-oh is having alot of money youre willing to spend on newer cards?? that doesn't make sense to me.
From what I can tell from shivaz description, people can pay to give themselves a further advantage above other people without money. It isn't like buying an expansion pack at all with newer and better units...because you would only be able to play other people with BW.
Shivaz makes a good point on yu gi oh. back when i played competitively i had a decent deck which i spent hundreds of dollars on and hours finding the cards i wanted to trade for. now when i looked back at the scene a couple of months ago i came to realize my deck became utter shit compared to those cards and the only way to ever play on level with others would be to shell out more cash.
compare this to broodwar. sure after a couple of years rust builds. but all you need is practice and to revise new strategies that came over the time. no amount of practice or new strategies could ever improve my chance of being able to compete in yugioh unless i was willing to spend more money on the newer better cards
Can't you just photocopy expensive cards and play with them. It's still the same game with the same skills involved, a victory with fake cards is as legitimate as a victory with real cards. You still went through the same strategy planning as you would have if you had the official expensive cards.
On July 15 2009 01:37 Kwark wrote: Can't you just photocopy expensive cards and play with them. It's still the same game with the same skills involved, a victory with fake cards is as legitimate as a victory with real cards. You still went through the same strategy planning as you would have if you had the official expensive cards.
no, getting the cards is part of the "skill"
although I would love that if they allowed it, so you can actually play the game.
On July 14 2009 06:16 Magic84 wrote: I only care about starcraft (1, i don't give a damn about sc2 which will suck in comparison) and cs 1.6. It will be so awesome if these game swill be in the solid league. I would also love to see fighting games, Tekken 6br and SF3ts to be exact.
These games are the best esports games.
If they fuck up with disciplines - wow, halo, source, etc, it's useless to even try, it'll fail.
If it's all a big joke, too bad then.
Wow.. Thanks man, I really appreciate you trolling so hard about things that I am quite sure you do not know shit about since you "only care about starcraft". Get your things straight and stop acting like an ass, SCII isn't even in BETA and hardly near release date.. Cut it some slack god damn it.
On July 15 2009 01:37 Kwark wrote: Can't you just photocopy expensive cards and play with them. It's still the same game with the same skills involved, a victory with fake cards is as legitimate as a victory with real cards. You still went through the same strategy planning as you would have if you had the official expensive cards.
no, getting the cards is part of the "skill"
although I would love that if they allowed it, so you can actually play the game.
On July 14 2009 13:12 Lemonwalrus wrote: Replace 'how much money you are willing to shell out into buying the cards' with 'how much apm you have' and you will see why your argument is just something someone unacquainted with a game would say as a detractor.
And yes, you said you have played yugioh, but you played yugioh on the same level as somebody who played the single player missions has 'played starcraft', your opinion on the professional level of the game carries no weight.
That is complete bullshit. Your APM is directly proportional to your mechanical skill in the game, while the amount of money that you shell out to get better has nothing to do with skill. What it means is someone who's rich and mediocre can still beat someone who could be fantastic and knows every tactic and strat behind the game but doesn't have the money to back it up. Furthermore, if you can't see why a card game can't be taken as a SERIOUS competitive sport (due to the fact that drawing cards is innately random and goes against the competitive spirit, unless you stack your deck), then you're fucking blind.
On July 14 2009 13:12 Lemonwalrus wrote: Replace 'how much money you are willing to shell out into buying the cards' with 'how much apm you have' and you will see why your argument is just something someone unacquainted with a game would say as a detractor.
And yes, you said you have played yugioh, but you played yugioh on the same level as somebody who played the single player missions has 'played starcraft', your opinion on the professional level of the game carries no weight.
That is complete bullshit. Your APM is directly proportional to your mechanical skill in the game, while the amount of money that you shell out to get better has nothing to do with skill. What it means is someone who's rich and mediocre can still beat someone who could be fantastic and knows every tactic and strat behind the game but doesn't have the money to back it up. Furthermore, if you can't see why a card game can't be taken as a SERIOUS competitive sport (due to the fact that drawing cards is innately random and goes against the competitive spirit, unless you stack your deck), then you're fucking blind.
The more tournaments you win the more money you get, with more money you can buy better cards therefore More money = more skill, oh btw regarding the "card game cannot be considered a competitive sport" statement, Elky will prolly visit you later tonight...
On July 14 2009 13:12 Lemonwalrus wrote: Replace 'how much money you are willing to shell out into buying the cards' with 'how much apm you have' and you will see why your argument is just something someone unacquainted with a game would say as a detractor.
And yes, you said you have played yugioh, but you played yugioh on the same level as somebody who played the single player missions has 'played starcraft', your opinion on the professional level of the game carries no weight.
That is complete bullshit. Your APM is directly proportional to your mechanical skill in the game, while the amount of money that you shell out to get better has nothing to do with skill. What it means is someone who's rich and mediocre can still beat someone who could be fantastic and knows every tactic and strat behind the game but doesn't have the money to back it up. Furthermore, if you can't see why a card game can't be taken as a SERIOUS competitive sport (due to the fact that drawing cards is innately random and goes against the competitive spirit, unless you stack your deck), then you're fucking blind.
The more tournaments you win the more money you get, with more money you can buy better cards therefore More money = more skill, oh btw regarding the "card game cannot be considered a competitive sport" statement, Elky will prolly visit you later tonight...
I think he means trading card games, not conventional card games.
On July 15 2009 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote: Furthermore, if you can't see why a card game can't be taken as a SERIOUS competitive sport (due to the fact that drawing cards is innately random and goes against the competitive spirit, unless you stack your deck), then you're fucking blind.
While I can't speak for yugioh, I played magic: the gathering semi-competitively for a few years and find myself disagreeing strongly with this. While no one could deny that card games are inherently luck-based, there is still a large amount of skill involved. Just like in poker, you'll find that while the game itself is based in probability, the better players will consistently beat the lesser skilled ones. If you doubt how SERIOUS a competitive sport a trading card game can be, I encourage you to checkout magicthegathering.com or starcitygames.com (a teamliquid equivalent). The competitive magic scene is much more organised and professional than (though I don't mean to detract from it) the foreign starcraft scene.
As for the cost of cards, I do agree that it is an unfortunate entrance barrier to the game and one of the main reasons I stopped playing magic. Starcraft and computer games in general are more egalitarian in that as long as you can afford the game, your skill is dependent only on your genes and your determination to get better. That being said, it's important to realise that at the higher levels of competitive TCG play, all the players have access to the "best" cards because they are willing to pay the hundreds/thousands of dollars for them. At this level, the differences in power level of individual cards is moot.
Yeah I also played magic competitively and the randomness is an unfortunate consequence of playing a card game. The thing is, good players spend a LOT of time balancing their decks perfectly so that their mana base compliments the threats and you don't end up getting mana screwed more than like 5% of the time or less.
As for having to buy the good cards, it's also the reason I quit. It's just ridiculous having to shell out all the money for the good cards. However, some tournaments (specifically type one tournaments, which feature the really old, rare, expensive cards) actually let you use fake cards in place of the real ones. Usually they'll put a limit on the amount of the fake cards that you can use, but it's almost always enough for you to avoid having to shell out hundreds and hundreds of dollars on just a few cards.
Of course, you don't always need to spend money to get the good stuff. A lot of the good stuff I came across back in the day was through trading.
That said, I wouldn't consider trading card games as legitimate a "sport" as some video games, including starcraft. They're more like an extra-competitive casual game with huge rewards for top players.
On July 15 2009 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote: Furthermore, if you can't see why a card game can't be taken as a SERIOUS competitive sport (due to the fact that drawing cards is innately random and goes against the competitive spirit, unless you stack your deck), then you're fucking blind.
While I can't speak for yugioh, I played magic: the gathering semi-competitively for a few years and find myself disagreeing strongly with this. While no one could deny that card games are inherently luck-based, there is still a large amount of skill involved. Just like in poker, you'll find that while the game itself is based in probability, the better players will consistently beat the lesser skilled ones. If you doubt how SERIOUS a competitive sport a trading card game can be, I encourage you to checkout magicthegathering.com or starcitygames.com (a teamliquid equivalent). The competitive magic scene is much more organised and professional than (though I don't mean to detract from it) the foreign starcraft scene.
As for the cost of cards, I do agree that it is an unfortunate entrance barrier to the game and one of the main reasons I stopped playing magic. Starcraft and computer games in general are more egalitarian in that as long as you can afford the game, your skill is dependent only on your genes and your determination to get better. That being said, it's important to realise that at the higher levels of competitive TCG play, all the players have access to the "best" cards because they are willing to pay the hundreds/thousands of dollars for them. At this level, the differences in power level of individual cards is moot.
true at a higher level the players have access to the cards but as a casual competitive game it pales due to the fact money is a huge factor in getting the cards.
with poker there is the luck factor but there is so much more to it than that. at the higher levels poker becomes less based on luck and more onto reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks. this is why poker can become more well known and popularized by our society. TCG games are fun however. i guess u can compare WoW to sc like comapring TCGs with poker. WoW is time and money consuming but it is fun and takes some level some competition whereas SC requires high mechanics, strategies and what not. TCGs are like WoW in the sense u gotta dedicate money and time to it and they are fun but lack some elements that make it competitve. and as i said before the way yugioh is going makes it so u must buy more booster packs from the new generation because all my ultra rares from way back when are crap compared to some new cards ive seen which arent even rares
I don't know about Yu-Gi-Oh, but I guarantee that the barrier for entry for Magic the Gathering is lower then that of Poker. Especially if you are talking Type 2 (newer sets only) or Sealed play.
On July 15 2009 05:34 Stratos.FEAR wrote: with poker there is the luck factor but there is so much more to it than that. at the higher levels poker becomes less based on luck and more onto reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks. this is why poker can become more well known and popularized by our society. TCG games are fun however.
Your speaking like two players play in an their own isolated game and not against each other. Even at low levels of play (where I play at) bluffing, reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks is all a part of Magic the Gathering.
Deck building doesn't detract from strategy it adds on to it. Since to predict players hands, when you don't know their exact deck build, you have to have a deeper understanding of the meta game.
I'm not gonna argue whether or not MTG is a sport (or e-sport for that matter), but I will argue that it is just as competitive as Poker or Starcraft is.
On July 15 2009 03:53 Stratos_speAr wrote: Furthermore, if you can't see why a card game can't be taken as a SERIOUS competitive sport (due to the fact that drawing cards is innately random and goes against the competitive spirit, unless you stack your deck), then you're fucking blind.
While I can't speak for yugioh, I played magic: the gathering semi-competitively for a few years and find myself disagreeing strongly with this. While no one could deny that card games are inherently luck-based, there is still a large amount of skill involved. Just like in poker, you'll find that while the game itself is based in probability, the better players will consistently beat the lesser skilled ones. If you doubt how SERIOUS a competitive sport a trading card game can be, I encourage you to checkout magicthegathering.com or starcitygames.com (a teamliquid equivalent). The competitive magic scene is much more organised and professional than (though I don't mean to detract from it) the foreign starcraft scene.
As for the cost of cards, I do agree that it is an unfortunate entrance barrier to the game and one of the main reasons I stopped playing magic. Starcraft and computer games in general are more egalitarian in that as long as you can afford the game, your skill is dependent only on your genes and your determination to get better. That being said, it's important to realise that at the higher levels of competitive TCG play, all the players have access to the "best" cards because they are willing to pay the hundreds/thousands of dollars for them. At this level, the differences in power level of individual cards is moot.
true at a higher level the players have access to the cards but as a casual competitive game it pales due to the fact money is a huge factor in getting the cards.
with poker there is the luck factor but there is so much more to it than that. at the higher levels poker becomes less based on luck and more onto reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks. this is why poker can become more well known and popularized by our society. TCG games are fun however. i guess u can compare WoW to sc like comapring TCGs with poker. WoW is time and money consuming but it is fun and takes some level some competition whereas SC requires high mechanics, strategies and what not. TCGs are like WoW in the sense u gotta dedicate money and time to it and they are fun but lack some elements that make it competitve. and as i said before the way yugioh is going makes it so u must buy more booster packs from the new generation because all my ultra rares from way back when are crap compared to some new cards ive seen which arent even rares
The fact that yugioh costs more to play than BW does not make it a bad or non-competitive game. The original argument is about whether yugioh is a legit competitive game that requires skill to win, not whether it requires way more money than it's worth (which it undoubtedly does. If you wanna play for free, btw, just use the yugioh virtual desktop. Back when I played there was even an online ladder that I held a consistent top 10 position on).
You say that "at the higher levels poker becomes less based on luck and more onto reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks". What you don't seem to realise or admit is that the exact same thing is true of yugioh. When you are playing at the highest levels of yugioh, you know after a couple turns what kind of deck your opponent is playing, virtually all the cards in that deck, and how he is going to try to win with them. From there it's all about anticipating plays, reading your opponent's style, calculating likelihoods of draws in both decks, running risk vs reward analyses on traps and face-downs, and even making bluffs. A good yugioh players is thinking several turns ahead. If you really think yugioh is just playing the cards that you draw then you were a scrub player who lost to kids like me. And I'm not even touching the skill involved in deck design (which I was never much good at).
I'm not going to say that yugioh requires as much skill as poker. I know for sure that it doesn't reward skill as much as poker. That's because of the design of the games, particularly the fact that in in the earlier stages of a game of poker you can fold without committing anything to a hand. This allows you to play poker far more conservatively than you can play yugioh, making the game take longer and giving the players more chances for their skill to reward them. In yugioh there is no such ability to 'opt out' and be safe from damage. Even if you draw the yugioh equivalent of a 2-7, you have to commit something to the field and try to play from your inferior position. If you try to wait it out and hope for a better draw next time, you better be ready to lose a chunk of lifepoints. The game atmosphere is somewhat similar to heads-up poker with really high antes. You can choose to wait for a better hand, but you are forced to lose a large chunk of your stack. You are gonna have to play eventually, good cards or not, and the sooner the better.
So this got a bit ramblomatic. In a gesture towards not derailing the thread, I was thinking about the WWFOG thing earlier and the LO3 episode where Slasher (I think) was saying he didn't even believe this was a real guy. And you know, with the 10 dollar registration fee, that seems like a real possibility =/. He can't have invested much money yet (all the expensive stuff is "coming in 2010!"), so if he was to manage to get a few thousand people to register for the cost of one website... well that'd be some pretty easy money.
On July 15 2009 06:23 Mullet_Power wrote: I don't know about Yu-Gi-Oh, but I guarantee that the barrier for entry for Magic the Gathering is lower then that of Poker. Especially if you are talking Type 2 (newer sets only) or Sealed play.
On July 15 2009 05:34 Stratos.FEAR wrote: with poker there is the luck factor but there is so much more to it than that. at the higher levels poker becomes less based on luck and more onto reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks. this is why poker can become more well known and popularized by our society. TCG games are fun however.
Your speaking like two players play in an their own isolated game and not against each other. Even at low levels of play (where I play at) bluffing, reading opponents, weighing odds and taking risks is all a part of Magic the Gathering.
Deck building doesn't detract from strategy it adds on to it. Since to predict players hands, when you don't know their exact deck build, you have to have a deeper understanding of the meta game.
I'm not gonna argue whether or not MTG is a sport (or e-sport for that matter), but I will argue that it is just as competitive as Poker or Starcraft is.
yes holyshit magic cards takes WAY more skill than yugioh, stupid nerds and their flashy monsters... what are they? recruiting 12 year old pros?
Ok given there are some points on how competitive a TCG can be (since that is what we are debating and the other factors are not as relevant) i just want to say this: would you watch a televised event of a TCG that you have never played? sure there can be commentators but then there are card effects and what not which the average person will not understand. and also given on how many ppl cannot comprehend the simple game rules even after being explained (think to yugioh when ur in school and everyone tries to summon blue eyes white dragon without two tribute cards) i think it will be extremely difficult to make it a truly competitive e sport where ppl will watch.
side thought: LOL we need those duel things that bring the cards to life!!!!!!111
thats one argument many have used to back sc as one of the best e sports to televise because it is easy to watch and follow through. poker has the simplicity factor in it when watching because...well all they need to show is 2 cards to the viewers lol but tbh i would rather much be playing poker than watching it
@ the pic posted: i think the federation needs a street fighting champ to kick the asses of cheaters just in case
On July 16 2009 01:42 Stratos.FEAR wrote: Ok given there are some points on how competitive a TCG can be (since that is what we are debating and the other factors are not as relevant) i just want to say this: would you watch a televised event of a TCG that you have never played? sure there can be commentators but then there are card effects and what not which the average person will not understand. and also given on how many ppl cannot comprehend the simple game rules even after being explained (think to yugioh when ur in school and everyone tries to summon blue eyes white dragon without two tribute cards) i think it will be extremely difficult to make it a truly competitive e sport where ppl will watch.
side thought: LOL we need those duel things that bring the cards to life!!!!!!111
thats one argument many have used to back sc as one of the best e sports to televise because it is easy to watch and follow through. poker has the simplicity factor in it when watching because...well all they need to show is 2 cards to the viewers lol but tbh i would rather much be playing poker than watching it
@ the pic posted: i think the federation needs a street fighting champ to kick the asses of cheaters just in case
That's a good point, considering a lot of cards have effects that search other cards that have different effects. It gets really hard for someone that's not hardcore into it to figure out what's going on and why the player is randomly picking cards out of his deck. I enjoy playing the video games, and it gets harder to get into the new games because it takes me like, 3 hours to read all the card effects to even have a vague comprehension of what my opponent is doing to me
I just wanted to clear up that while yes, there is some luck factor in what you draw in Yugioh, it's not a lot. Yes, you can have some dead draws where you can do absolutely nothing no matter how good your deck is, but in a bo series, it balances out. Well built decks run very consistently and a lot of modern decks can consistently bring out their winning combo in a matter of a few turns better than 90% of the time. So yes, you can lose to a dead draw in one duel, but it happens rarely and it's rare to lose a bo series solely based on dead draws
As for the new cards > old cards: well, yes and no. Yes in that you need new cards to compete, but no in that new cards aren't better than old cards necessarily. Its just that over time lots of new cards come out, so the player has lots more choices to make when constructing a deck. A whole bunch of the good old cards are banned from play because they are too good (for example pot of greed). A new deck would cream an old deck, but that's not because the individual cards are stronger, it's because there's so much more support for the different themes that you can have much better synergy between your cards
I have MtG pro points, and play it whenever possible, all peoples complaints about the game itself are created out of preconceived notions that WotC does not understand nor address properly.
It's the best game ever made, and you can play it in many, many ways. Some expensive, some not. People who claim it's expensive don't look around enough, people who claim it isn't strategic are like terran turtles in SC who call you a noob because they were the last player on your team to die, they don't experience the game enough to pass judgement on why it's popular.
Like SC, you can't learn MtG in a day, or a week, or a year. It's a slow process to understanding what's good and what isn't. You need to play it, or you won't ever get any good, and you won't ever understand why it's a good game. Get some friends, borrow the cards you need, start by making a cheaper deck, read StarCity, and have fun. Who cares if you're putting shit on the battlefield, exiling dragons, drawing from the library, and countering spells? It's dorky, but who cares, it's the best game ever made, and closed minded people who categorically refuse to play because they don't put the effort into learning how are the real losers, here.
That being said, I've watched the live commentary at the actual pro tour, cameras above the pro players tables and all, and yeah, they need to figure out a way to do that better... :/
On July 08 2009 16:43 MK wrote: uh, CPL is US no ? And it was pretty successful, right ?
I probably should have been more clear, I was referring to companies which hold tournaments in the US only. CPL held tournament world wide. From what I can tell, it sounds like this is going to be US only (for now at least), so I did not feel CPL was a fair comparison.
More importantly though, CPL shut down. It was back in 07 or 08 I think when there were top teams saying that the CPL was not paying up on the prize money. Unless they came back (possible I guess), CPL is no longer really in the discussion.
why would the world-wide federation of gaming be U.S. only?
On July 08 2009 16:43 MK wrote: uh, CPL is US no ? And it was pretty successful, right ?
I probably should have been more clear, I was referring to companies which hold tournaments in the US only. CPL held tournament world wide. From what I can tell, it sounds like this is going to be US only (for now at least), so I did not feel CPL was a fair comparison.
More importantly though, CPL shut down. It was back in 07 or 08 I think when there were top teams saying that the CPL was not paying up on the prize money. Unless they came back (possible I guess), CPL is no longer really in the discussion.
why would the world-wide federation of gaming be U.S. only?
lol the guy said himself he is not a gamer and doesn't know shit about or play any games. How good can a company be with this kind of backing? Then he goes on contradictingly to say its made for gamers by gamers.
On July 08 2009 16:43 MK wrote: uh, CPL is US no ? And it was pretty successful, right ?
I probably should have been more clear, I was referring to companies which hold tournaments in the US only. CPL held tournament world wide. From what I can tell, it sounds like this is going to be US only (for now at least), so I did not feel CPL was a fair comparison.
More importantly though, CPL shut down. It was back in 07 or 08 I think when there were top teams saying that the CPL was not paying up on the prize money. Unless they came back (possible I guess), CPL is no longer really in the discussion.
why would the world-wide federation of gaming be U.S. only?
World Series baseball?
The World Series has been the annual championship series of the highest level of professional baseball in the United States and Canada since 1903, concluding the postseason of Major League Baseball.
Oh wow. Someone derailed this thread badly into a big MtG advertisement. Btw now's not a bad time to start b/c there's a major card-legality rotation going on in the two most popular formats, type 1.X "Extended", and Type 2 "Standard". After nearly two years of not being able to play my spells, faeries is finally rotating out of Standard!
In other news, yes WFG IS hilarious. If only there was a way to buy stock in something failing miserably? Or is that just called gambling?
Randomly remembered this sham of a league and thought I would check up on it... no updates since July 4th 2009 a couple days before this thread started.
I wonder if they have refunded the people who payed $10 for their "service"? Or maybe it's still going to happen...
So anyone got any news, from other sources, on what is going on with this league?
It just really annoys me. So many people with decent english write payed so often that it spreads and idiots think it's the actual spelling, simply by sheer force of repetition. It must be brought to their attention whenever possible.
Also yeah, the whole thing was a scam. But we knew that from the start.
- Exclusive forum access on WWFOG to discuss your favorite games with the pros - Chance to be drafted to one of many professional teams coming in 2010 - Access to all your gaming needs in one place (coming soon)
On November 30 2009 13:10 KwarK wrote: It just really annoys me. So many people with decent english write payed so often that it spreads and idiots think it's the actual spelling, simply by sheer force of repetition. It must be brought to their attention whenever possible.
Also yeah, the whole thing was a scam. But we knew that from the start.
*English
There's far more to poke fun at, but you get the picture: You're in no position to judge.
EPT![[image loading]](http://wwfog.com/API/UploadedImages/137_1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wwfog.com/API/UploadedImages/140_1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8747/wwof.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v243/tubejay/ebcb407c13ba4657ae9d2e2dbe77753b.gif)
![[image loading]](http://www.splitreason.com/Product_Images/329308a2c70c-xl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f56/notconorferguson/lolwut.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i30.tinypic.com/2jdrgqa.jpg)
