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United Kingdom2674 Posts
On July 07 2009 00:11 VIB wrote:
I've learned a lot from this thread, thanks for those contributing. I'm a complete ignorant about the history of the two countries.
This tension between koreans and japanese. Are they new to WW2? Or does it date from much before that and the war only aggravated it?
I don't know any koreans in real life. I do know many japanese and they all seem to have an unexplainable anger towards koreans. Most of them are just as ignorant about history as I am tho. Yet, they don't like koreans regardless :S
Japan occupied Korea in 1905 and annexed it in 1910. The occupation continued until Japan's surrender at the end of World War II. Korea under Japanese rule was not a pleasant place. On top of that, Korean culture was suppressed by the occupiers.
A sad personal memory: my wife's grandmother, who died a few years ago in her mid-70s, spent the last few years of her life trying to learn to read, something she had never been able to do while growing up during the occupation.
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Lol! Respect to all those who didn't feed the trolls.
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On July 05 2009 15:52 Creationism wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 15:43 5unrise wrote:
I'm just glad they didn't do this in China, that would have been bad, really bad *gulp* QFT
wats qft mean
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There's little to say that Manifesto hasn't... I'm not Japanese either so I can only give the view of a foreigner living here. My view however, has there EVER been a just and clean war ever? The very nature of war means terrible shit happens.
To just say "Get over it!" is cruel, but realistically, the more people whine about something that happened in war the less time they spend actually pull themselves ahead.
I will say I've known a lot of Koreans that never ceased with the anti-Japanese propaganda and conversely, I know many younger Japanese that have grown up seeing something from so long ago thrown in their faces. Thus they grow to dislike Koreans for it. What's the honest point of attacking someone over something that happened so far before their birth? Even if they did apologize for it, it wouldn't hold meaning.
Personally, as an American I feel embarrassed to even comment as what we did to the native populations of our expanded territory is equally ugly. But again, no society can claim to be just or clean.
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United States3824 Posts
I thought this was going to be about haji 
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On July 05 2009 15:42 GhostKorean wrote:haha That's really nice of Korea. Everything I read these days makes me want to go visit Korea more and more 
You are including the North Korean missile tests?
im kidding 
i imagine how the progamers heads are with all the fuss about the tests
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It's true that Japan has been harassing Korea for centuries.
If you are a weaboo, go check on Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion on Korea (1592 and 1598).
In the end, japan has to face up their own history and stop whitewashing their history text books.
Truth hurts like a bitch, eh? Japan? Suck it up and take it.
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aww thats so cute
I think the world needs more irl trolls though ;o
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On July 07 2009 02:35 kaizenmx wrote:
It's true that Japan has been harassing Korea for centuries.
If you are a weaboo, go check on Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion on Korea (1592 and 1598).
In the end, japan has to face up their own history and stop whitewashing their history text books.
Truth hurts like a bitch, eh? Japan? Suck it up and take it.
I don't care if you are the South Korean president's son get your shit off my lawn
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On July 07 2009 01:22 sk` wrote:
There's little to say that Manifesto hasn't... I'm not Japanese either so I can only give the view of a foreigner living here. My view however, has there EVER been a just and clean war ever? The very nature of war means terrible shit happens.
To just say "Get over it!" is cruel, but realistically, the more people whine about something that happened in war the less time they spend actually pull themselves ahead.
I will say I've known a lot of Koreans that never ceased with the anti-Japanese propaganda and conversely, I know many younger Japanese that have grown up seeing something from so long ago thrown in their faces. Thus they grow to dislike Koreans for it. What's the honest point of attacking someone over something that happened so far before their birth? Even if they did apologize for it, it wouldn't hold meaning.
Personally, as an American I feel embarrassed to even comment as what we did to the native populations of our expanded territory is equally ugly. But again, no society can claim to be just or clean.
If a people will associate themselves with their national history, it follows that they are responsible for what they remember and how they remember it. However, this is far from admitting that failing to fully meet this responsibility, that responsibility is devolved to her former enemies.
It must be a curious thing for the Western observer to notice the subordination of history in the orient to national mythologies. In the West, Hitler, Napoleon, Louis XIV, the Enlightenment, the Renaissance, Rome, Greece, Jersualem, and a thousand other events sweep across the universal western consciousness as experiences shared by the heritage of all Western civilizations, even though many Western nations only experienced these events ephemerally. By contrast, the experience of Japanese occupation is shared by China, North Korea, South Korea, and Vietnam, and yet the Chinaman remains indifferent and nearly oblivious to the Japanese occupation of Korea, while the Korean is similarly disinterested in China's story.
Another obvious note is that while no amount of national outrage in one nation can produce true remorse within another, this is not China's purpose. Like the old oriental tyrant, what China (and perhaps also the two Koreas) demands is not internal moral evolution, but the outward, ceremonial self-prostration of her former enemies. With these ends, Chinese appeals to Western parallels will always fail, as surely as her attempts to cower Japan by Manchu diplomacy.
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It always amazes me how hard it seems for pretty much every government to admit mistakes even they were extremely grave and centuries ago... Well at the same time it always amazes me how young people can feel about things like that so strong.
And even more so since you don't seem to care if your own government does it (for example the Chinese government is like the king of not admitting mistakes, you should really be able to sympathize with the japanese point of view if you are from China ^^) A similiar case can be easily made for almost every bigger country, with perhaps the exception of Germany, we kind of admit everything ad nauseum...
The story while cute looks very unbelievable in every aspect.
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On July 06 2009 23:07 MoltkeWarding wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
There is no doubt in my mind that the Great Wars of the 20th century were democratic, popular wars, and the common soldiery bears a great deal of the responsibility for it. The differences of individual behaviour between the American soldier and Russian soldier in occupied Europe cannot be reduced to their respective forms of government; it is something much deeper than that.
At the same time, in the West, we regard history as more than a means of explaining the impersonal world without us; that is, more than mythology. For us history is a means of self-knowledge. The Western historian must never be satisfied with demonizing or dehumanizing the Nazis; he must expand his understanding of humanity to encompass them. Demonization such as Japan is represented in Chinese historiography is an admittance of defeat in Western historical thinking: it implies that our subject is morally incomprehensible, and devoid of personality.
Considering the civilizational and moral standards of the Chinese themselves, they should be able to understand the Japanese occupation better than the West, yet they do not. There is the eternal egocentrism of the Chinese nation. There is their lack of individualistic traditions. Perhaps it is right that Europeans cannot be expected to understand Chinese "culture."
Is this flame-bait? I can't tell, but I'm pretty pissed off. You can't just expect the Chinese to look at the Japanese-Chinese history objectively with what happened. Yeah, war happens, people die, but some things just are too much. Not to mention a lot of this is with regards to the CCP and their propaganda, there's more than just blind hate among the Chinese people you know. From my experiences the hate is getting diluted as the years go on (I'm definitely not as biased towards the Japanese as my parents and grandparents are, and my friends aren't either).
Also, "lack of individualistic traditions", wtf does this even mean. "culture."? That's insulting.
If a people will associate themselves with their national history, it follows that they are responsible for what they remember and how they remember it. However, this is far from admitting that failing to fully meet this responsibility, that responsibility is devolved to her former enemies.
It must be a curious thing for the Western observer to notice the subordination of history in the orient to national mythologies. In the West, Hitler, Napoleon, Louis XIV, the Enlightenment, the Renaissance, Rome, Greece, Jersualem, and a thousand other events sweep across the universal western consciousness as experiences shared by the heritage of all Western civilizations, even though many Western nations only experienced these events ephemerally. By contrast, the experience of Japanese occupation is shared by China, North Korea, South Korea, and Vietnam, and yet the Chinaman remains indifferent and nearly oblivious to the Japanese occupation of Korea, while the Korean is similarly disinterested in China's story. "western consciousness" and "experiences shared by the heritage of all western civilizations"? You're a Canadian so I have no idea where you're getting this "shared heritage" crap, not to mention only Hitler has been within the past decades so it's pretty obvious why there isn't as nearly a big stink about the others.
Another obvious note is that while no amount of national outrage in one nation can produce true remorse within another, this is not China's purpose. Like the old oriental tyrant, what China demands is not internal moral evolution, but the outward, ceremonial self-prostration of her former enemies. With these ends, Chinese appeals to Western parallels will always fail, as surely as her attempts to cower Japan by Manchu diplomacy. Is it too much for a public apology? I'm sure if the German government never went and formally apologized and prayed to dead Nazi war criminals the west would be sooo understanding. There is a cultural difference, to be sure, but you present things in such a negative light.
These two posts just looks much like "Europeans/Western genteels > Chinese barbarians".
edit: I'm Chinese, born there, lived in Canada and America for over half my life now and currently a citizen of Canada; for clarity.
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On July 07 2009 00:58 Vex wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2009 15:52 Creationism wrote:On July 05 2009 15:43 5unrise wrote:
I'm just glad they didn't do this in China, that would have been bad, really bad *gulp* QFT wats qft mean
Quoted For Truth
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
On July 07 2009 03:39 KingAnus3 wrote:
worst post ever, who cares about two random japanese girl having a good time in korea??? I misjudged country all the time like those F*cking arabs country that hates us!!! I should go with a Canadian flag in Iran and scream go israelll go fuckin jew!!! to see if how they will react!!!
Fifth post is a little early to be saying someone made the "worst post ever", huh?. Too many exclamation marks. And a really bad nickname. Just a really bad all-round package there.
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On July 07 2009 03:39 KingAnus3 wrote:
worst post ever, who cares about two random japanese girl having a good time in korea??? I misjudged country all the time like those F*cking arabs country that hates us!!! I should go with a Canadian flag in Iran and scream go israelll go fuckin jew!!! to see if how they will react!!!
Fail.
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8751 Posts
On July 07 2009 03:10 King K. Rool wrote:
currently a citizen of Canada
You're Canadian, not Chinese.
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On July 07 2009 00:21 Nylan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 00:05 poasiodss wrote:On July 06 2009 22:24 Nylan wrote:On July 06 2009 20:26 poasiodss wrote:On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote:
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. Naive. It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that. The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation. + Show Spoiler +Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation. (Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.) My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well. Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika. Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread. Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely. You're just preaching an idealistic way of going about it, and I would consider that as being naive. My point was that it is not so easy to simply forgive and forget when the survivors from that era are still around. Besides, it would be much easier to go about forgiving if there ever was a sincere apology for what happened. I am calling something stupid what it is. Also, hardly any of those people are in government, and the vast majority of people in both countries today had nothing to do with the war. Japan is constantly handicapped and punished, so I think they've already done their due part. "MAMA, MAKE HIM SAY SORRY FOR WHAT HIS DADDY DID TO MY DADDY OR I'M GOING TO HATE HIM FOREVER" is childish, all things considered. You can't pull the "you don't know what it's like" card either. I know firsthand it isn't just a naive, idealistic thought.
Most Asian nations who have been conquered and abused by Japan is ready to move on (maybe except China) All they ask is a formal apology and admittance that it really happened. Japan is the one choosing to not move on by unwilling to accept reality of its actions. They even go as far as to remove that information from their history textbooks
How is Japan constantly handicapped and punished? Is it like Germany who ban the denial of holocaust? Does it give compensation money to all those comfort women that were abused by Japan? Does it even admit its wrongdoings?
I don't see how Japan is being punished, the country is being very childish and immature by not accepting what it did. Of course, you can't blame the Japanese citizens, but the government officials.
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konadora
Singapore66365 Posts
On July 07 2009 02:35 kaizenmx wrote:
It's true that Japan has been harassing Korea for centuries.
If you are a weaboo, go check on Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion on Korea (1592 and 1598).
In the end, japan has to face up their own history and stop whitewashing their history text books.
Truth hurts like a bitch, eh? Japan? Suck it up and take it.
sup with the Japan hate?
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isnt that like if some germans today went up to some jewish people and said their race was superior? really despicable and distasteful. Even if they apologized to koreans I find that pretty low considering the history.
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EPT
