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On July 06 2009 13:04 MK wrote:
Problem is in the West we can't really understand that : Germany apologize quite every year about what they did during the war.
Japan has never apologized and are even telling that they were kinda right, that the war criminals were great heroes, that Korean should thank them because it was better when Japan colonized them than when it was China, that Nankin never happened and blablabla.
I live In Japan and here, god, in the History class, the WW2 looks like Japan has never been the bad guys, they were just serving the God or whatever the shit they tell.
I mean, com'on, many friends of mine from Keio University don't even know what happened to the Chinese and the Korean during the WW2.
Agreed with you on this.
My GF works in JP and she told me that, almost every young people she met doesnt really know about what JP did in WW2 and they thought that they are the victims of the war too.
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Osaka27168 Posts
On July 06 2009 16:26 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 13:04 MK wrote:
Problem is in the West we can't really understand that : Germany apologize quite every year about what they did during the war.
Japan has never apologized and are even telling that they were kinda right, that the war criminals were great heroes, that Korean should thank them because it was better when Japan colonized them than when it was China, that Nankin never happened and blablabla.
I live In Japan and here, god, in the History class, the WW2 looks like Japan has never been the bad guys, they were just serving the God or whatever the shit they tell.
I mean, com'on, many friends of mine from Keio University don't even know what happened to the Chinese and the Korean during the WW2. Agreed with you on this. My GF works in JP and she told me that, almost every young people she met doesnt really know about what JP did in WW2 and they thought that they are the victims of the war too.
Well to be fair, they were also victims of the war. And anecdotal evidence like that doesn't really mean anything. If you go to other countries, I doubt their young people are walking encyclopedias either.
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
As a general rule, text books and other mainstream literature in every nation fail to represent the more sordid part of that nation's history correctly. This is generally true of the mainstream media in every country too.
There are important issues around the way texts in Japan represent that nation's actions but one should not operate under the impression that one's own nation is much better. Children in British schools are not learning about Britain's reprehensible activities in India or Kenya, to take just two examples, and a significant number of people in Britain wander around still thinking that the Empire was a "jolly good thing, overall". Children in America are not receiving an accurate representation of of that nation's history. And the same is true in most countries, especially those with an imperial history.
There is a very simple reason for this: accurate representation can erode the control which may be exercised by the economic and political elite based on an appeal to "patriotism". To a significant extent, the received history of one's nation has already passed through the prism of state and private power.
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On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote:
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
Naive.
It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that.
The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation.
+ Show Spoiler +Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +
I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation.
(Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.)
My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well.
Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika.
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yup, korean peaceloving ppl owned them so hard ROFL maybe if these two were guys this could've gone either way? I personnaly strain myself for hitting woman no matter how stupid/ugly she is
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On July 06 2009 20:26 poasiodss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote:
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. Naive. It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that. The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation. + Show Spoiler +Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation. (Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.) My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well. Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as Show nested quote +Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika.
Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread.
Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely.
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Osaka27168 Posts
My question at this point is what does "learning about the atrocities" accomplish? If it is to create a society where this does not happen again, are there not other ways to make this happen than reliving grotesque history over and over?
If the purpose is to enforce shame on others, I wonder about the value of that endevour.
On July 06 2009 18:18 Arbiter[frolix] wrote:
As a general rule, text books and other mainstream literature in every nation fail to represent the more sordid part of that nation's history correctly. This is generally true of the mainstream media in every country too.
There are important issues around the way texts in Japan represent that nation's actions but one should not operate under the impression that one's own nation is much better. Children in British schools are not learning about Britain's reprehensible activities in India or Kenya, to take just two examples, and a significant number of people in Britain wander around still thinking that the Empire was a "jolly good thing, overall". Children in America are not receiving an accurate representation of of that nation's history. And the same is true in most countries, especially those with an imperial history.
There is a very simple reason for this: accurate representation can erode the control which may be exercised by the economic and political elite based on an appeal to "patriotism". To a significant extent, the received history of one's nation has already passed through the prism of state and private power.
I would argue that is a homogeneous society such as Japan, these factors are more strictly adhered to. Japan is so image conscious that it would rather sanitize than investigate.
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Osaka27168 Posts
On July 06 2009 20:26 poasiodss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote:
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. Naive. It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that. The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation. + Show Spoiler +Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation. (Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.) My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well. Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as Show nested quote +Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika.
Sorry, but the traditional argument of "people stopping the regime" never holds water with me. People are under tremendous stress under tyrannical regimes, and I find rare examples that people rebel. To expect them to is to hold them to an unfair standard, as these regimes remove the ability of choice.
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On July 06 2009 18:18 Arbiter[frolix] wrote:
Children in British schools are not learning about Britain's reprehensible activities in India or Kenya, to take just two examples, and a significant number of people in Britain wander around still thinking that the Empire was a "jolly good thing, overall".
It was a jolly good thing, overall. The Brits ruled Singapore and we're one of the 4 Asian Tigers. The French, on the other hand...
I agree that this problem of censoring history isn't confined to Japan, though.
A lot of the Japanese were certainly assholes in their short-lived empire. But the Japanese were victims of WW2 as well. How many families lost fathers and sons and brothers who didn't want to fight in the first place? But that's something the textbooks in Japan's ex-empire don't teach either. Not that I don't think Japan shouldn't apologise, but just that both sides are guilty of picking and choosing their history.
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On July 06 2009 22:29 Manifesto7 wrote:
Sorry, but the traditional argument of "people stopping the regime" never holds water with me. People are under tremendous stress under tyrannical regimes, and I find rare examples that people rebel. To expect them to is to hold them to an unfair standard, as these regimes remove the ability of choice.
Especially as by the time WW2 rolled round, a few soldiers with guns could control an entire population. This isn't the French Revolution where a mob armed with pitchforks and a few muskets could still overthrow a regime.
If your argument is that the people should stop the regime, then Korea and the rest of Asia deserve to still be under Japanese rule because none of them overthrew the Japanese regime.
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
On July 06 2009 22:38 The Storyteller wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 18:18 Arbiter[frolix] wrote:
Children in British schools are not learning about Britain's reprehensible activities in India or Kenya, to take just two examples, and a significant number of people in Britain wander around still thinking that the Empire was a "jolly good thing, overall". It was a jolly good thing, overall. The Brits ruled Singapore and we're one of the 4 Asian Tigers. The French, on the other hand...
As delighted as I am for Britain to be ranked above France in the "friendly empire" league table, I hardly think that settles the issue.
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There is no doubt in my mind that the Great Wars of the 20th century were democratic, popular wars, and the common soldiery bears a great deal of the responsibility for it. The differences of individual behaviour between the American soldier and Russian soldier in occupied Europe cannot be reduced to their respective forms of government; it is something much deeper than that.
At the same time, in the West, we regard history as more than a means of explaining the impersonal world without us; that is, more than mythology. For us history is a means of self-knowledge. The Western historian must never be satisfied with demonizing or dehumanizing the Nazis; he must expand his understanding of humanity to encompass them. Demonization such as Japan is represented in Chinese historiography is an admittance of defeat in Western historical thinking: it implies that our subject is morally incomprehensible, and devoid of personality.
Considering the civilizational and moral standards of the Chinese themselves, they should be able to understand the Japanese occupation better than the West, yet they do not. There is the eternal egocentrism of the Chinese nation. There is their lack of individualistic traditions. Perhaps it is right that Europeans cannot be expected to understand Chinese "culture."
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United Kingdom2674 Posts
On July 06 2009 22:27 Manifesto7 wrote:
My question at this point is what does "learning about the atrocities" accomplish?
Well, presumably it would have stopped these two morons parading around Seoul with the Imperial Japanese flag for a start. :p
On a more serious note, my point is not that a nation should be continually flagellating itself by reliving past atrocities but that a proper understanding of the past, especially the relatively recent past, is important if one is to understand the political machinations of the present. This applies with some urgency to one's own nation but also to understanding other nations and other regions, as the recent events in Honduras have amply demonstrated.
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On July 06 2009 23:02 Arbiter[frolix] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 22:38 The Storyteller wrote:On July 06 2009 18:18 Arbiter[frolix] wrote:
Children in British schools are not learning about Britain's reprehensible activities in India or Kenya, to take just two examples, and a significant number of people in Britain wander around still thinking that the Empire was a "jolly good thing, overall". It was a jolly good thing, overall. The Brits ruled Singapore and we're one of the 4 Asian Tigers. The French, on the other hand... As delighted as I am for Britain to be ranked above France in the "friendly empire" league table, I hardly think that settles the issue.
What... you're not happy with that. What kind of Brit are you, anyway? 
Anyway, leaving aside the issue of whether it was good or bad (since it's hard to say whether its ex colonies are doing well or badly because of or in spite of it), I think the one really good thing the British did for my country was to withdraw in an orderly fashion leaving behind a good system of governance and badly defeated communists.
And I think the Commonwealth countries used to get a whole lot more out of Britain before Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister (did we use to get free uni education in the UK?)... but by then I think the largesse had been going on long enough anyway.
But yeah, they did do pretty badly at other times in other countries.
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On July 06 2009 22:24 Nylan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 20:26 poasiodss wrote:On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote:
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. Naive. It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that. The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation. + Show Spoiler +Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation. (Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.) My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well. Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika. Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread. Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely.
You're just preaching an idealistic way of going about it, and I would consider that as being naive. My point was that it is not so easy to simply forgive and forget when the survivors from that era are still around. Besides, it would be much easier to go about forgiving if there ever was a sincere apology for what happened.
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I've learned a lot from this thread, thanks for those contributing. I'm a complete ignorant about the history of the two countries.
This tension between koreans and japanese. Are they new to WW2? Or does it date from much before that and the war only aggravated it?
I don't know any koreans in real life. I do know many japanese and they all seem to have an unexplainable anger towards koreans. Most of them are just as ignorant about history as I am tho. Yet, they don't like koreans regardless :S
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On July 07 2009 00:05 poasiodss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 22:24 Nylan wrote:On July 06 2009 20:26 poasiodss wrote:On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote:
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. Naive. It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that. The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation. + Show Spoiler +Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation. (Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.) My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well. Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika. Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread. Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely. You're just preaching an idealistic way of going about it, and I would consider that as being naive. My point was that it is not so easy to simply forgive and forget when the survivors from that era are still around. Besides, it would be much easier to go about forgiving if there ever was a sincere apology for what happened.
I am calling something stupid what it is.
Also, hardly any of those people are in government, and the vast majority of people in both countries today had nothing to do with the war. Japan is constantly handicapped and punished, so I think they've already done their due part. "MAMA, MAKE HIM SAY SORRY FOR WHAT HIS DADDY DID TO MY DADDY OR I'M GOING TO HATE HIM FOREVER" is childish, all things considered.
You can't pull the "you don't know what it's like" card either. I know firsthand it isn't just a naive, idealistic thought.
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