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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On July 07 2009 04:18 stack wrote:
isnt that like if some germans today went up to some jewish people and said their race was superior? really despicable and distasteful. Even if they apologized to koreans I find that pretty low considering the history.
But Germans know about their own history, don't they?
I won't deny that 'not knowing our history' isn't a valid reason for waving a Japanese war flag around a country that your ancestors colonized and took control of a few decades ago, but they were doing it because of their passion for the sport (going over to Korea to 'show who's the superior country' was most likely sports-related reason too, not because of their historical pwnzorship).
Also, wondering why didn't any Koreans there bother to tell them the meaning behind the flag -__________-
I'm pretty sure history about the two countries is taught in Korea....
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On July 07 2009 04:03 Liquid`NonY wrote:You're Canadian, not Chinese.
I'm denoting that I'm of Chinese descent, if I said instead "I'm Canadian, born in China" it would denote that I'm Caucasian.
I think most immigrants identify themselves with their motherland however.
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On July 07 2009 00:21 Nylan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 00:05 poasiodss wrote:On July 06 2009 22:24 Nylan wrote:On July 06 2009 20:26 poasiodss wrote:On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote:
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. Naive. It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that. The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation. + Show Spoiler +Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation. (Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.) My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well. Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika. Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread. Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely. You're just preaching an idealistic way of going about it, and I would consider that as being naive. My point was that it is not so easy to simply forgive and forget when the survivors from that era are still around. Besides, it would be much easier to go about forgiving if there ever was a sincere apology for what happened. I am calling something stupid what it is. Also, hardly any of those people are in government, and the vast majority of people in both countries today had nothing to do with the war. Japan is constantly handicapped and punished, so I think they've already done their due part. "MAMA, MAKE HIM SAY SORRY FOR WHAT HIS DADDY DID TO MY DADDY OR I'M GOING TO HATE HIM FOREVER" is childish, all things considered. You can't pull the "you don't know what it's like" card either. I know firsthand it isn't just a naive, idealistic thought.
Japan's constantly punished? Even after the war, the Japan was not very heavily affected by its loss. After a brief period of economic downfall, Japan quickly achieved high standards of living again. Fast forwarding to today, those two Japanese girls in the OP had no idea what that flag would mean in Korea or China - doesn't exactly look like the past's weighing down Japan at all.
It's understandable that some Koreans may have ill-gotten feelings towards Japan. It's completely natural. However, it's slowly fading away with the passing time. It would be easier, of course, if something concrete suggested that Japan has learned from its mistake in the past. From what Manifesto said, it appears that the atrocities committed in China and Korea are simply considered as a part of the history and is not given any significant weigh at all.
I'm going to pull out the "you dont know what it's like" card about here. Either from family history, national pride, or its impact on Korea's history for last century, many Koreans have some bitter feelings towards the Japan, which clearly appears to be apathetic towards its past. Then, who are you to waltz in here and call them childish for not readily forgetting one of the most painful moments in their history? Do try and show some respect for the survivors or the families of the survivors from that unfortunate era.
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If they did it in china they are screwed
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Yawn, this story is so full of bullshit. Parading around the Japanese imperial flag in Korea and they got nothing but warm greetings.... my fucking ass..
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On July 06 2009 15:20 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 15:03 koreasilver wrote:
Understood, but can you explain more about the "filling of empty vessels" style of education? Sure. Japanese education is about test taking. The teacher stands at the front of the class and deposits knowledge (water) into the students (empty vessels). The students then spill that water onto their test, and move onto the next test. These tests determine which school (HS or university) they can next attend. One of the main goals of education is to mold the student into the type of citizen they need to be in order to function in the workforce. I would say that is more important. Obviously this does not lead students to ask many questions, or analyze the issues. Talking with Okuno-sensei, he was a little disappointed to leave his last school because there he had a special history class where he could use audio/video, and discuss history, rather than just read the textbook to the class. That is why I think that Japan could write everything about the war in their textbooks, and it wouldn't matter. The way education works here is that it is just a series of data, whether it be history, math, or English. The real impact is made when students travel to Hiroshima to see the war museum and a-bomb dome. I guess they could travel to Korea and be exposed there too. edit- One example... I did a letter exchange with Ghana last year, and part of the exchange was examining how Ghanaian children have to harvest cacao, but have never tasted chocolate. I asked my students "would you give them chocolate?". This is always a tough thing to do, because it is goes against how they normally learn. Forming an opinion may be ok, but justifying it is tough. The American exchange students that were there then opened up with a heated discussion about it, talking loudly and shooting down points. My students were overwhelmed within seconds.
The method of education in Japan is extremely similar to how it is in South Korea currently then, from what you've said in your post. I also recall hearing from a number of people that the level of competition and stress for the students in the two countries are also rather similar, and due to what I've read and heard about the education system of the two countries, I've generally believed that a significant reason for the high suicide rate amongst high school and university students in Japan and South Korea is due to the education system.
Regardless, from what you've said, it doesn't really seem that the general ignorance or disinterest of the Japanese about their prior history is a byproduct of the education system because if it was so, then presumably, many Koreans would also be ignorant or disinterested in what has happened in the past. This obviously isn't so, and there are of course, a slew of other things that factor in, but looking at it in a simplistic way, it definitely does seem like the Japanese government genuinely put effort into minimizing parts of their history that are disgraceful.
On July 07 2009 00:11 VIB wrote:
I've learned a lot from this thread, thanks for those contributing. I'm a complete ignorant about the history of the two countries.
This tension between koreans and japanese. Are they new to WW2? Or does it date from much before that and the war only aggravated it?
I don't know any koreans in real life. I do know many japanese and they all seem to have an unexplainable anger towards koreans. Most of them are just as ignorant about history as I am tho. Yet, they don't like koreans regardless :S
The relationship between the Koreans and the Japanese weren't bad until the Imjin Wars, where the Japanese suddenly invaded a completely unprepared Korea until they were pushed back with the help of the Chinese. During this war, apparently a third of the population of Korea died, and due to the widespread destruction the Japanese laid on the country, the peninsula kinda went on a downfall, which arguably continued until the end of the Korean War. Prior to the Imjin Wars however, the Koreans and the Japanese had a pretty neutral relationship. The only real period where Koreans and the Japanese had a real friendly relationship was during the first Three Kingdoms era, where the Baekjae royals and the Japanese royals intermarried. After Shilla unified the continent though, relationships between the island and the peninsula kinda lulled out. There weren't any real issues besides Japanese pirates though.
There are tons of things more to talk about as well, but it's so numerous and sensitive that I'd rather not go into history too much, as often I find myself being unable to stay reasonably unbiased as the discussion goes on.
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On July 07 2009 04:24 poasiodss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 00:21 Nylan wrote:On July 07 2009 00:05 poasiodss wrote:On July 06 2009 22:24 Nylan wrote:On July 06 2009 20:26 poasiodss wrote:On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote:
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. Naive. It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that. The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation. + Show Spoiler +Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation. (Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.) My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well. Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika. Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread. Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely. You're just preaching an idealistic way of going about it, and I would consider that as being naive. My point was that it is not so easy to simply forgive and forget when the survivors from that era are still around. Besides, it would be much easier to go about forgiving if there ever was a sincere apology for what happened. I am calling something stupid what it is. Also, hardly any of those people are in government, and the vast majority of people in both countries today had nothing to do with the war. Japan is constantly handicapped and punished, so I think they've already done their due part. "MAMA, MAKE HIM SAY SORRY FOR WHAT HIS DADDY DID TO MY DADDY OR I'M GOING TO HATE HIM FOREVER" is childish, all things considered. You can't pull the "you don't know what it's like" card either. I know firsthand it isn't just a naive, idealistic thought. Japan's constantly punished? Even after the war, the Japan was not very heavily affected by its loss. After a brief period of economic downfall, Japan quickly achieved high standards of living again. Fast forwarding to today, those two Japanese girls in the OP had no idea what that flag would mean in Korea or China - doesn't exactly look like the past's weighing down Japan at all. It's understandable that some Koreans may have ill-gotten feelings towards Japan. It's completely natural. However, it's slowly fading away with the passing time. It would be easier, of course, if something concrete suggested that Japan has learned from its mistake in the past. From what Manifesto said, it appears that the atrocities committed in China and Korea are simply considered as a part of the history and is not given any significant weigh at all. I'm going to pull out the "you dont know what it's like" card about here. Either from family history, national pride, or its impact on Korea's history for last century, many Koreans have some bitter feelings towards the Japan, which clearly appears to be apathetic towards its past. Then, who are you to waltz in here and call them childish for not readily forgetting one of the most painful moments in their history? Do try and show some respect for the survivors or the families of the survivors from that unfortunate era.
I quoted you because I thought you were defending Japan at first. I guess I agree with you and just wanted to expand on your point 
The reason why Japan is not well-liked in much of East Asia is not only because of the attrocities it committed during WWII but more because they have never amended for them.
Compare post-WWII German/French relationships. Within a decade or two of WWII, French people *loved* Germans, the two countries where the greatest allies in europe. Why? Germany felt guilty, made many public apologies, wrote their school history books to deal with the Holocaust and german attrocities, and other things to make Europe/France happy.
Japan on the other hand, did very little. Their history books, I believe, focused primarily on American attrocities against Japan. Japan did little to make up for how it treated the rest of Eastern Asia.
For those reasons there has never been a full rapprochement between Japan and East Asia (i.e. Japan/korea).
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uhu Germany and France love each other. And Germany was still Germany uuuh wut.
The link between Germany and Japan is interesting and worth to look at, but don't destroy it by oversimplifying things.
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Their history books, I believe, focused primarily on American attrocities against Japan. Japan did little to make up for how it treated the rest of Eastern Asia.
hmmm... well, the problem is, sometimes, they completely re-write the History... :/
What I can't understand is WHY in Japan, one of the most internet-connected country in the world and without any kind of censore like in China, WHY students are still not aware about the "truth".
I mean, for some friends of mine here, they really don't understand why Nankin people hate them and when I send them some Wikipedia pages, they are like "WTF LOL ? fake ?"
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Japan doesn't (and probably won't) amend for their atrocities because of national pride. the people themselves are very humble in their actions, but the government isnt so.
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LOL@Troll Irl, I heard it was called "fishing" or something like that in japan
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
Japanese people have very high national pride, which is why the government continues to deny it.
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On July 07 2009 10:46 StalkerSC wrote:
LOL@Troll Irl, I heard it was called "fishing" or something like that in japan
The internet word 'troll' came from the form of fishing FYI
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On July 07 2009 10:47 konadora wrote:
Japanese people have very high national pride, which is why the government continues to deny it.
i thought so too, which is why this http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lif_not_pro_of_the_nat-lifestyle-not-proud-their-nationality came as somewhat of a surprise.
since Germany is a close second, i imagine the western Holocaust and the eastern equivalent have something to do with these statistics. i wonder how honestly the japanese answered the surveys.
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MoltkeWarding:
If we are to say people must be stained by the history of the culture to which they belong then do you, as a Northern American, feel remorse for what we did to the native population here? I don't mean to be a dick, but as someone from that culture I feel completely detacted from it even though the history of it has been instilled in me. I think Japanese of this current generation view WW2 in the same manner.
I am well aware of what Korea and China want; it's just the stupidity of it that shocks me is all. For example, should the US, Britan, and other cultures that engaged in slavery prostrate themselves to Africa? Then again, I'm not the type to hold on to anger so I can't easily understand people that do... especially people who weren't even alive to experience the root of the anger.
By in large though, given policy shifts over the last 10 years, I strongly believe China has moved on. Immigration and trade policies with Japan are VERY friendly and I really don't hear the same anti-Japan rhetoric from Chinese. Conversely, trade policy between Japan and Korea is still horrid.
poasiodss:
Japan pulled themselves out of the rubble of WW2 through hardwork and sacrifice. Tokyo was reduced to rubble and built into what it is today because they didn't stand in one place and piss about how awful their occupiers were (America) and just got to the business of rebuilding. Not to blow smoke up anyone's ass, but to see Tokyo from rubble to what it is now is truly an amazing thing and it was done without aid or crying.
My point isn't to belittle the Korean side, but rather to enforce my point - time spent whining about what was doesn't get you one step closer to where you want to be.
All:
I'm not like, wildly experienced in this... but the unmasked photos of those girls don't look very Japanese to me. Moreover, if we apply some logic to it; well, Japanese that speak Korean are rare; additionally, Koreans that speak Japanese are rare. So how was all this love-love dialog going down? The whole thing seems a little too staged to be real. Granted, if it is real those are the two stupidest girls I've ever seen, and I won't deny it could be real as there is no shorage of stupid girls here... just, usually, they lack the funding to go overseas and don't speak anything but Stupidgirlese.
I will also say there's a HUGE gap here between the mindset of the government and the mindset of the person on the street. More so than the States (from my personal observations and minor battles with both governments). I will say though, the person on the street here finds themselves frustrated by the level of hate lobbed at them over WW2 and typically through that frustration builds them same dislike back up. People need to learn to step out of their loops.
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nice story... i dream bout travel korea from 2 years ago... maybe a korean lady want to buy me a ticket?? hehe
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On July 07 2009 13:32 sk` wrote:
MoltkeWarding:
I am well aware of what Korea and China want; it's just the stupidity of it that shocks me is all. For example, should the US, Britan, and other cultures that engaged in slavery prostrate themselves to Africa? Then again, I'm not the type to hold on to anger so I can't easily understand people that do... especially people who weren't even alive to experience the root of the anger.
In U.S., the education system teaches students extensively about slavery including some of the more horrid nature of the practice. If you want another ridiculous example to go with yours, think of American schools that only briefly mention Americas and Europe trading slaves. An American kid who doesn't know about slavery. Germany teaching about Nazis as the leading political party during WWII with some policies that was unfavorable against Jews. A German kid being ignorant of holocaust?
Right now, the fundamental attitude in Japan towards this seems to simply involve blaming the old regime and trying to forget about it all. I'm sorry, but that is completely fucked up. No offense to Japan, but if the country that committed such deeds can simply have a change of regime and just start forgetting all about it, that doesn't show any remorse nor does that guarantee it wouldn't commit such deeds again. Yet, there you are, saying that China and Korea should also go with the flow and pretend none of this ever happened since Japan is obviously ready to forget about it all.
Also, if you actually have any comparable life stories on similar basis that may justify you calling China and Korea stupid and angsty, do please share.
On July 07 2009 13:32 sk` wrote:
poasiodss:
Japan pulled themselves out of the rubble of WW2 through hardwork and sacrifice. Tokyo was reduced to rubble and built into what it is today because they didn't stand in one place and piss about how awful their occupiers were (America) and just got to the business of rebuilding. Not to blow smoke up anyone's ass, but to see Tokyo from rubble to what it is now is truly an amazing thing and it was done without aid or crying.
My point isn't to belittle the Korean side, but rather to enforce my point - time spent whining about what was doesn't get you one step closer to where you want to be.
I don't suppose you realize that Japan did have some U.S. help in rebuilding their economy? Also, ironically, one of the major boosts in revitalizing Japanese economy was its opportunistic involvement with the Korean War. Using your words, yes they also cried and pissed about how awful their occupiers were in form of public demonstrations. You could've probably found these out if you bothered to at least check Wikipedia before posting.
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Epic trolling of the trolls, I say!
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I don't suppose you realize that Japan did have some U.S. help in rebuilding their economy? Also, ironically, one of the major boosts in revitalizing Japanese economy was its opportunistic involvement with the Korean War. Using your words, yes they also cried and pissed about how awful their occupiers were in form of public demonstrations. You could've probably found these out if you bothered to at least check Wikipedia before posting.
Well, that's why here in Japan, people pretty "admire" the USA.
On many points, the American culture is even stronger in Japan than in France for example.
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EPT
