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poasiodss:
I'm a lovely product of the American education system and I disagree with your notion that our tainted history is thoroughly examined. For the most part, it is taught in a manner that states, "Yeah, that stuff was pretty bad, but look at all these heroic things that happened too! Oh and Abe, he totally like put and end to all the dirty stuff!". In actuality, it was not so clean and Lincoln's motivations were never so pure. More importantly, how long did it take for the issue to have real dialog or solutions? Where's those 40 achers and the muel every single slave was promised? Sorry, but the US is by no means clean in this matter and has done little in terms of apology; so for your or I to judge Germany or Japan is... damn pot; how black is that kettle again? I feel I have no ground to judge either.
Also, before you try to discredit my point by questioning the education I received, I was in AP classes from the 5 grade until exiting high school. As a philosophy major later, I've just observed that every country teaches history in a way that paints its deeds in a positive light; not matter how filthy they are.
I never said the trend in Japan was to blame the old regime. I said the trend is that the people on the street feel and act very differently than the goverment. As for "...never happen again..." type thoughts... crappy shit happens all the time, different places than the place before it. As a species we've learned nothing from our past atrocities. Darfur or other recent atrocities should prove as much. More important would be to look to why it happened and why it happens and thus address the nature of those "whys" and you can cut it off before it happens - peacefully.
In Japan's case it was an overbearing admiration of the British Empire in which another tiny island nation expanded (into the largest empire that ever was) through "colonization". Examining Britian's reasons for expansion and comparing them to their own needs they felt jusified in their acts, especially given that Britian's actions in expansion were also not all that clean (especially in Asia). Japan also framed its expansion as "colonization" without realizing the era of expansion framed in such a manner had passed.
Either way, you see this pattern continue today under differing terms. The motivation and tragedies that follow remain. Better to analyze this and understand it (thus reach a solution) than cry about it.
Also, I never said they should just pretend it never happened, but rather standing in one spot crying about it isn't productive. China and Japan have largely moved on; much like the US and Africa have done... Korea seems to cling to it though and if you compare relative growth rates and GPD, it is clear that energy is wasted. Not to say South Korea hasn't been successful, just that it isn't as rapid or strong as its neighbors. If we consider the two Koreas as one it is especially unsuccessful.
I am well aware of that history (in terms of post-war Japan). Of course they protested; Japan was never occupied before. Hell, they even managed to repel the Mongol Empire of old (through lucky typhoon timing). However, unlike Korea which is still cranky about it, Japan got to the task of rebuilding largely before it got to the task of protest. No matter which revision of history you check the bulk of the effort was placed in how Japan structured its economy and labor force over forgein investment. Nobody will doubt the US helped, especially with the procurement costs in the Korean War, but this is a standard model and the US continues to pay both Korea and Japan for land it uses for military purposes. The point of payment is moot since it is so wide-spread and Korea too has benefited from post-war aide... so I'm really not sure why you introduced this at all.
Finally, for the record, I am not anti-Korea or pro-Japan or anything in any point of grey between those, but rather I don't see the point of demanding prostration from people who had nothing to do with the crime especially when their current culture does not encourage such acts. If you or anyone could detail the logical and productive reason for this I would like to read it.
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But in Europe, it's a CRIME to deny the Holocaust, right ?
In Japan, politicians deny the Nankin massacre or Prostitution controversy in Korea during the ww2.
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MK:
Uh... that is really mixed... overall the EU hasn't been able to really solidify a working version of that law. As irony would have it though, Germany does have and enforce said law.
Not to belittle things, but I think there's a huge difference between war atrocities and out-right genocide. Japan's actions in the pacific were not genocide so comparing them in that manner is a little misguided.
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SK' :
Well, this is hard to tell. I only got information from Japan so can't tell how it is felt in Cn or Kr but I've read a book about Nankin (from an English guy) and the Japanese Army consider the Chinese like dogs or pigs. In many Manga, Chinese or Korea are drawn as pigs.
Come to think about it, German Nazi were considering Jews as Rat... .
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United States5262 Posts
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On July 07 2009 18:05 jkillashark wrote:
아 씨발로마... 좆 가 일본 씹쌔끼들.
oO'
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MK:
Yes... but being insulting is still nothing in the realm of actual genocide.
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If we are to say people must be stained by the history of the culture to which they belong then do you, as a Northern American, feel remorse for what we did to the native population here? I don't mean to be a dick, but as someone from that culture I feel completely detacted from it even though the history of it has been instilled in me. I think Japanese of this current generation view WW2 in the same manner.
It is irresponsible to compound epicurean liberalism with memory. It is true that many people are put off by the incomprehensibility of former generations, but my complaint is not that they are ignorant, but they don't try. I said before that history is a form of self-knowledge, and knowing the diversity of moral possibilities as revealed by our histories does not confine, but broaden our knowledge of our own possibilities, and reinforces our sense of responsibility to ourselves and to others. I also said before that detachment or demonization are forms of defeat, and this is especially true concerning one's ancestors. If we admit that the actions of our ancestors are incomprehensible to ourselves, and shall remain so, then we have not earned the right to claim to be a continuation of their legacies.
The history of the Anglo-French exploitation of Canada was not always saintly, but it is also wrong to demonize the complex motives and assumptions of the European colonists from post-colonial assumptions. The history of our continent is that of missionaries as well as cowboys, of cultural exchange and trade as well as clashes of civilizations. History cannot be reduced to ideological ammunition.
Finally, I refuse to interpret national history from a messianistic, liberal, progressive perspective. That is to assume that men morally evolve, (which they do not, they simply mutate) and that the present generation is capable of acting as final judges on past events, which we are not. In the end, the liberal ideology is incompatible with the awareness of original sin, and its reminder of who we are and what we are capable of. For us, it is especially easy to fall into the trap of believing that modernity has baptised humanity, whereas it is merely the serpent whispering into our ears.
P.S. I would also confess that as I associate myself with the Western consciousness, it is far easier for me to sympathize with the laws of terra nullius and requierimiento, as ethnocentric as they were, than with the feelings or motives of the displaced autochthones, in whose names indignation has been extrapolated by the self-critical west.
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I'm not saying nanking is something to take lightly, but the highest estimated death toll at nanking (~300k) is no where near the lowest estimated death toll of genocides such as the holocaust (~11 million), Rwanda (~800k), Darfur (no one knows for sure but 400k-500k is thrown around the most, and this number is still growing)
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On July 07 2009 19:07 iPF[Div] wrote:I'm not saying nanking is something to take lightly, but the highest estimated death toll at nanking (~300k) is no where near the lowest estimated death toll of genocides such as the holocaust (~11 million), Rwanda (~800k), Darfur (no one knows for sure but 400k-500k is thrown around the most, and this number is still growing)
Well, to be fair, they did kill some 17-30 million elsewhere in the country.
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Let's make something clear here: Japan did commit genocides and other atrocities during WW2, so don't try to whitewash that. They were as bad as Nazi Germany, just that their war crimes didn't get as much exposure here in the west.
Germany has since then made up with their past and moved on, sadly you can't say the same when it comes to Japan. They still have war criminals enshrined in Yasukuni Shrine and every now then they try to revise their history books to make them look better - even victims - during WW2.
This angers a lot of countries in Asia that suffered under Japanese oppression during the war, and that anger get used by right-wing groups and/or nationalistic currents in China and Korea.
If Japan just stopped trying to whitewash their own history, removed the war criminals from Yasakuni, and offered an honest apology for what they did, then Japan could move on and leave their trouble past behind them.
Radical groups in China and Korea wouldn't have as much fuel for their hatred of Japan then either, and the relations between the countries would improve.
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On July 07 2009 08:03 ultramagnetics wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 04:24 poasiodss wrote:On July 07 2009 00:21 Nylan wrote:On July 07 2009 00:05 poasiodss wrote:On July 06 2009 22:24 Nylan wrote:On July 06 2009 20:26 poasiodss wrote:On July 06 2009 15:42 Nylan wrote:
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. Naive. It's a little difficult to just dust it off and walk away from everything when your great grandparents have lived through the horrors of Japanese occupation. It's a couple of generations too early for that. The horror of Nazi Holocaust is fully realized in most of the Western society largely due to the photographs showing the full brutality of the camps. They really do get through better than statistics in some cases. I've rarely been exposed to any pictures taken during Japanese occupation, however, I've just visited a Q/A section of a Korean portal and searched for pictures taken during Japanese occupation. + Show Spoiler +Pretty disturbing stuff. I clicked on two of them and saw a ditch filled with dead babies and a beheaded head of an old man resting on a log. + Show Spoiler +Click on the Korean characters above the English subtitle in parenthesis to access the pictures. It resizes my window for some reason. + Show Spoiler +I'm actually surprised no one brought up how the end of Japanese occupation brought Korea into Korean War followed by being divided in half as it is today. Many of the new generations grew up under the parents who most likely felt some effect of the division (poverty, communism scare, horrible instability of a newly formed regime, dictators). These parents grew up under the grievances of their parents, who actually lived through the Korean War. The parents of this generation would've lived through the Japanese occupation. (Now, I don't mean to say that Japan deserves to be whole heartedly hated by Korea. I understand the government at the time suppressed its oppressions and exploited its citizens.) My point is that it's pretty natural for many Koreans to have bitter feelings for Japan in general. I just believe this feeling would portray itself in different ways for a while longer until it eventually fades away - probably with the older generations that lived through these era as well. Of course, it's not a simple enough problem you can solve by spitting out bullshit such as Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on. No, there is no reason to hate on Japanese people. However, it is the Japanese people who either supported or failed to stop this regime, and those were Japanese soldiers (citizens) who ransacked Korea. From Korea's point of view, I'd imagine it'd feel some apology is in order whatever the political situation during that age was. I take from Manifesto's post that the majority of Japanese residents are not familiar with how the occupation went. It's comparable to if the German citizens weren't sufficiently educated or interested enough to really understand why everyone seem to hate the Swatstika. Given your last paragraph, it is most certainly NOT naive. Most of your points have also been addressed earlier in the thread. Whether or not people feel like forgiving a country largely made up of people who had nothing to do with what happened and whether or not they should are entirely different issues. It IS childish. What your post does is take what should be and confuse it with what is, and as such it misses the mark completely. You're just preaching an idealistic way of going about it, and I would consider that as being naive. My point was that it is not so easy to simply forgive and forget when the survivors from that era are still around. Besides, it would be much easier to go about forgiving if there ever was a sincere apology for what happened. I am calling something stupid what it is. Also, hardly any of those people are in government, and the vast majority of people in both countries today had nothing to do with the war. Japan is constantly handicapped and punished, so I think they've already done their due part. "MAMA, MAKE HIM SAY SORRY FOR WHAT HIS DADDY DID TO MY DADDY OR I'M GOING TO HATE HIM FOREVER" is childish, all things considered. You can't pull the "you don't know what it's like" card either. I know firsthand it isn't just a naive, idealistic thought. Japan's constantly punished? Even after the war, the Japan was not very heavily affected by its loss. After a brief period of economic downfall, Japan quickly achieved high standards of living again. Fast forwarding to today, those two Japanese girls in the OP had no idea what that flag would mean in Korea or China - doesn't exactly look like the past's weighing down Japan at all. It's understandable that some Koreans may have ill-gotten feelings towards Japan. It's completely natural. However, it's slowly fading away with the passing time. It would be easier, of course, if something concrete suggested that Japan has learned from its mistake in the past. From what Manifesto said, it appears that the atrocities committed in China and Korea are simply considered as a part of the history and is not given any significant weigh at all. I'm going to pull out the "you dont know what it's like" card about here. Either from family history, national pride, or its impact on Korea's history for last century, many Koreans have some bitter feelings towards the Japan, which clearly appears to be apathetic towards its past. Then, who are you to waltz in here and call them childish for not readily forgetting one of the most painful moments in their history? Do try and show some respect for the survivors or the families of the survivors from that unfortunate era. I quoted you because I thought you were defending Japan at first. I guess I agree with you and just wanted to expand on your point  The reason why Japan is not well-liked in much of East Asia is not only because of the attrocities it committed during WWII but more because they have never amended for them. Compare post-WWII German/French relationships. Within a decade or two of WWII, French people *loved* Germans, the two countries where the greatest allies in europe. Why? Germany felt guilty, made many public apologies, wrote their school history books to deal with the Holocaust and german attrocities, and other things to make Europe/France happy. Japan on the other hand, did very little. Their history books, I believe, focused primarily on American attrocities against Japan. Japan did little to make up for how it treated the rest of Eastern Asia. For those reasons there has never been a full rapprochement between Japan and East Asia (i.e. Japan/korea).
I'm quoting you specifically because of this: "The reason why Japan is not well-liked in much of East Asia is not only because of the attrocities it committed during WWII but more because they have never amended for them."
That is just not true. Wikipedia even maintains a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan . Compare this to the fact that US has never apologized for dropping two nuclear warheads on civilians.
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On July 07 2009 19:39 Eury wrote:
Let's make something clear here: Japan did commit genocides and other atrocities during WW2, so don't try to whitewash that. They were as bad as Nazi Germany, just that their war crimes didn't get as much exposure here in the west.
Germany has since then made up with their past and moved on, sadly you can't say the same when it comes to Japan. They still have war criminals enshrined in Yasukuni Shrine and every now then they try to revise their history books to make them look better - even victims - during WW2.
This angers a lot of countries in Asia that suffered under Japanese oppression during the war, and that anger get used by right-wing groups and/or nationalistic currents in China and Korea.
If Japan just stopped trying to whitewash their own history, removed the war criminals from Yasakuni, and offered an honest apology for what they did, then Japan could move on and leave their trouble past behind them.
Radical groups in China and Korea wouldn't have as much fuel for their hatred of Japan then either, and the relations between the countries would improve.
This.
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On July 07 2009 18:25 sk` wrote:
MK:
Yes... but being insulting is still nothing in the realm of actual genocide.
It might have not been genocide in the form of intentionally trying to kill off a certain group of people, but the Japanese attempted cultural genocide on the Korean people during the occupation. Absolutely no one can deny that.
To all the people that are claiming that the Japanese attempted genocide during their ravage of Asia... do you even understand what genocide is? Obviously they committed disgusting atrocities, but there is nothing to suggest that they were trying to completely wipe out entire ethnical groups.
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On July 07 2009 16:29 sk` wrote:
poasiodss:
I'm a lovely product of the American education system and I disagree with your notion that our tainted history is thoroughly examined. For the most part, it is taught in a manner that states, "Yeah, that stuff was pretty bad, but look at all these heroic things that happened too! Oh and Abe, he totally like put and end to all the dirty stuff!". In actuality, it was not so clean and Lincoln's motivations were never so pure. More importantly, how long did it take for the issue to have real dialog or solutions? Where's those 40 achers and the muel every single slave was promised? Sorry, but the US is by no means clean in this matter and has done little in terms of apology; so for your or I to judge Germany or Japan is... damn pot; how black is that kettle again? I feel I have no ground to judge either.
Also, before you try to discredit my point by questioning the education I received, I was in AP classes from the 5 grade until exiting high school. As a philosophy major later, I've just observed that every country teaches history in a way that paints its deeds in a positive light; not matter how filthy they are.
I never said the trend in Japan was to blame the old regime. I said the trend is that the people on the street feel and act very differently than the goverment. As for "...never happen again..." type thoughts... crappy shit happens all the time, different places than the place before it. As a species we've learned nothing from our past atrocities. Darfur or other recent atrocities should prove as much. More important would be to look to why it happened and why it happens and thus address the nature of those "whys" and you can cut it off before it happens - peacefully.
In Japan's case it was an overbearing admiration of the British Empire in which another tiny island nation expanded (into the largest empire that ever was) through "colonization". Examining Britian's reasons for expansion and comparing them to their own needs they felt jusified in their acts, especially given that Britian's actions in expansion were also not all that clean (especially in Asia). Japan also framed its expansion as "colonization" without realizing the era of expansion framed in such a manner had passed.
Either way, you see this pattern continue today under differing terms. The motivation and tragedies that follow remain. Better to analyze this and understand it (thus reach a solution) than cry about it.
Also, I never said they should just pretend it never happened, but rather standing in one spot crying about it isn't productive. China and Japan have largely moved on; much like the US and Africa have done... Korea seems to cling to it though and if you compare relative growth rates and GPD, it is clear that energy is wasted. Not to say South Korea hasn't been successful, just that it isn't as rapid or strong as its neighbors. If we consider the two Koreas as one it is especially unsuccessful.
I am well aware of that history (in terms of post-war Japan). Of course they protested; Japan was never occupied before. Hell, they even managed to repel the Mongol Empire of old (through lucky typhoon timing). However, unlike Korea which is still cranky about it, Japan got to the task of rebuilding largely before it got to the task of protest. No matter which revision of history you check the bulk of the effort was placed in how Japan structured its economy and labor force over forgein investment. Nobody will doubt the US helped, especially with the procurement costs in the Korean War, but this is a standard model and the US continues to pay both Korea and Japan for land it uses for military purposes. The point of payment is moot since it is so wide-spread and Korea too has benefited from post-war aide... so I'm really not sure why you introduced this at all.
Finally, for the record, I am not anti-Korea or pro-Japan or anything in any point of grey between those, but rather I don't see the point of demanding prostration from people who had nothing to do with the crime especially when their current culture does not encourage such acts. If you or anyone could detail the logical and productive reason for this I would like to read it.
One can summarize this entire post as a red herring.
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Cultural genocide...soon there'll be ideological genocide, political genocide, artistic genocide, lesbian genocide and who knows what. Who knows? Maybe I'm trying to commit lexical genocide.
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The Japanese completely took over the education system and began to teach Koreans only Japanese and Japanese history. The Japanese also attempted to destroy history texts and were undergoing revision of history during the occupation era. I mean, even with just the forced implementation of their culture into the young through an education system is pretty similar to what the North Americans did to the natives, and they did succeed in completely eradicating some languages and cultures. You can't just trivialize this.
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MK:
is it what you only call "insult" ?
My statement is CLEARLY in reply to...
and the Japanese Army consider the Chinese like dogs or pigs. In many Manga, Chinese or Korea are drawn as pigs.
I don't think it really takes a internet leap of logic to understand this much. An action cannot be a compliment or an insult, an action is an action. Words, images, etc. can be compliments or insults.
I shouldn't have to explain this much... murder, even in the conditions of war is wrong. I've labeled Japan's actions in Asia as "autrocities" countless times in this thread so...
MoltkeWarding:
What are they supposed to "try" to? Remembering WW2 in a manner in which you wish? One can only control the level of education they receive so far; past that they'd need a passion to explore the topic and educate themselves in the details. Few humans posses this. To expect an entire culture to, without any motivation, is just absurd.
Nobody is trying to reduce the history of North America to "ideological ammo" and how you've lept there is beyond me. Seems mostly a ploy to distract from the topic. The topic is simple, you nor I are clean enough to pass judgment on the Japanese. From the usage of slaves to promises denied them after their freedom was passed to the abuse and exploitation of the native population... we are by no means in a position to judge. North America has seen no shortage of atrocities committed so that future generations of whites could enjoy the way of life they do now (for the record I am not black).
Euy:
Doesn't seem like you know the meaning of genocide. As they allowed the native populations of their colonies to exist at all means they did not commit genocide. Abusing those populations isn't the same as trying to exterminate them completely. A simple comparison of actual genocides to what Japan did should reveal this much.
Koreasilver:
I'm not trying to distract the point... in fact I was just reverting back to the source point; i.e. whining doesn't bring progress.
Your point about Japan trying to whip the culture of an region cannot be denied, I think Taiwan had it worst in that regards; BUT, again this is inline with what Britian did in its colonial expasions. Japanese envied and mimicked that pattern... but of course we don't talk about Britian being the "bad guy" because they were the British Empire in an era that accepted cultural washing and conquest in the frame of colonial expansion while Japan was late to the party. Neither is right or wrong and history isn't just a white and black matter. Bottom line, nobody is going to say what Japan did was right, justified, or anything of the sort... that isn't the topic and it is common sense, even to Japanese on the street.
ParasitJonte:
Uh... both Hiroshima and Nagasaki where components of the Japanese military at the time. Nagasaki much more so than Hiroshima; therefore, labeling either as a strictly civilian target is an out right lie. The only real grounds to decry the bomb would be that Japan had already lost so it wasn't tactically necessary. While try one has to reflect back to the fact that Japan always deflected occupation in the past and thus would fight a land-sea invasion to the bitter end. I'm not going to attempt to justify the bombings, though I believe more lives were lost in the bombing of Tokyo than both atomic blasts.
All:
Again the issue for me is what does Korean hope to gain from Japan prostrating itself? Especially people who had nothing to do with it. China, being as they are, moved on. I'm just having trouble understand what one side hopes to gain... those who suffered are gone and those who committed are gone.
It is just a personal hypothesis, but I imagine Japan avoids a full blown prostration-level apology because the trade tariffs and other economic expansion limitations countries would impose on it from that action. At least, looking at how business is done here I could see them feeling that way. Japan turned its war aggression into economic aggression and thus anything that could delay or harm that would be avoided at all costs. I know compared to China, Korea is exceptionally hard to do business with here... so many tiny pointless rules imposed on this end and yet Korean products worth a damn are allowed to flourish here.
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Let's not play with words here, it is pretty pointless.
I will give you a quote the pretty much sums it up: "It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes a ton of more info there if you enjoy reading.
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EPT
