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On July 06 2009 13:57 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 13:04 MK wrote:
Problem is in the West we can't really understand that : Germany apologize quite every year about what they did during the war.
Japan has never apologized and are even telling that they were kinda right, that the war criminals were great heroes, that Korean should thank them because it was better when Japan colonized them than when it was China, that Nankin never happened and blablabla.
I live In Japan and here, god, in the History class, the WW2 looks like Japan has never been the bad guys, they were just serving the God or whatever the shit they tell.
I mean, com'on, many friends of mine from Keio University don't even know what happened to the Chinese and the Korean during the WW2. Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 13:09 koreasilver wrote:
That's why we can't just hate the Japanese people for what they believe because they are just simply believing what was taught to them. The problem lies in the Japanese government, not the Japanese people. This is something that a lot of Koreans I talk to fail to realize. How can you expect the Japanese people to know better when their government is giving the schools textbooks full of lies. Based upon these two statements I just visited with Okuno-sensei, who is a history teacher at my school. I asked to see the textbooks that the students use, and we talked about the perspective other Asian countries have about Japanese education. Here are some of the interesting points. 1) First of all, Japanese students do learn about WWII, and the actions of their country in China and Korea. The books talk about conquest, and they talk about specific tragedies such as the Rape of Nanking. In recent years China and Korea has been upset with Japanese textbooks, but more about word selection than anything else. Conservative forces in education want to use words such as "expansion" rather than "conquest" etc. Before 1985 the textbooks were lacking much of this information. 2) Second of all, for many countries WWII is lmajor historical event. For countries such as America, UK, and Canada, it is seen as a black and white good vs evil victory. Asia is a much more complex scenario. In Japan, WWII is given the same weight as most other events. It does not occupy the same prominence that it might in other countries educational system. When your country has 3000 years of history, WWII is at the back of the book. This creates a problem. 3) Combined with point 2, the education system in Japan does not foster a discussion about history. History is a series of facts and events, and one must memorize these facts to pass a test. That is what history is (and so is every other subject here). There is no emotion or discussion in history, even when it comes to atrocities committed against Japanese people. Because of this, I would venture to the poster who talked about his Keio friends, probably they did learn about it, just like they learned and forgot algebra in high school too. The only "learning" they have really done is test preparation. This is what creates a non-English speaking population despite 6 years of formal teaching as well. Would the situation be different had Japan not been cast as the bad guys? I think the educational system would be the same, but the war might play a bigger part in culture than it does now. While Hollywood still pumps out WWII movies, Japan is really unable to explore history through culture because of the extremely negative reputation it has from it. Japanese people are not deaf to the problem though. Okuno-sensei realizes these issues and we discussed them at length. Hope this cast a little light on the system over here, and it may be better than the anecdotal "my friend hates Japs" or "my friend doesnt know history lol".
None of what you have said sheds any reasoning as to why the Japanese government has skirted around some typical issues such as the comfort women. Also, in comparison to the German government, the Japanese government appears to seriously not truly believe that what has happened during WWII were as atrocious as they were; it just simply seems like they don't give a fuck.
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Osaka27178 Posts
I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the point where you said "Japanese people don't learn this". Not quite sure how you missed that. I think my post gives a little insight onto how much and why Japanese learn what they do.
it just simply seems like they don't give a fuck.
edit - And the rest of your post is just emotional flame baiting. I'm sorry I took the time to go and bring back something of interest.
Finally, to compare Germany and Japan, and expect them to do the same things, shows an incredible ignorance of cultural behaviour, the type of ignorance you ranted about earlier in this thread.
Have you actually read a Japanese text book? Considering I majored in 20th century military history, and I just read a Japanese text book, what parts exactly are "full of lies"? It isn't written the way I would write it, but there wasn't any "lies" that I could find.
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On July 06 2009 14:05 MrHoon wrote:
You know who I really hate? Pride Driven Koreans
I fucking hate you all. You guys are just as bad as Obama Supporters just because he is Black.
DO SOME FUCKING HOMEWORK BEFORE SPEWING SHIT
chill out bro: indeed some of these people can be misinformed and maybe too eager
but there is nothing inherently wrong with the love for one's country
national pride is bound to be somewhat irrational
i do wish sometimes, however, that they are not so frenzied as to incite a negative reaction from foreigners
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I suppose the Korean propaganda I've been hearing for the past years were incorrect then.
edit: this isn't sarcastic.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On July 06 2009 14:13 v1rtu0so wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 14:05 MrHoon wrote:
You know who I really hate? Pride Driven Koreans
I fucking hate you all. You guys are just as bad as Obama Supporters just because he is Black.
DO SOME FUCKING HOMEWORK BEFORE SPEWING SHIT chill out bro: indeed some of these people can be misinformed and maybe too eager but there is nothing inherently wrong with the love for one's country
I just find it ironic when KP_PRIIDDEEE Asians say Korea is the greatest country in the world when they go to public schools in the middle of montana.
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its pretty annoying indeed and they are not doing korea any good
but there exist "pride driven koreans" who are not as heavy-handed and put their nationalism into better use
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On July 06 2009 14:17 koreasilver wrote:
I suppose the Korean propaganda I've been hearing for the past years were incorrect then.
edit: this isn't sarcastic.
Korean Propaganda is fucking amazing
SBS and KBS are run by the goverment making MBC the only channel to tell the truth 
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On July 06 2009 14:10 Manifesto7 wrote:I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the point where you said "Japanese people don't learn this". Not quite sure how you missed that. I think my post gives a little insight onto how much and why Japanese learn what they do. edit - And the rest of your post is just emotional flame baiting. I'm sorry I took the time to go and bring back something of interest. Finally, to compare Germany and Japan, and expect them to do the same things, shows an incredible ignorance of cultural behaviour, the type of ignorance you ranted about earlier in this thread.
People who do not have origins from China or Korea don't fully understand the cultural effect of the war simply because they have no understanding of the cultures in those countries to begin with. If the government in the country doesn't represent the people.... then what does. In other words, the representation of actions is done through political means. You may say that a SINGLE opinion differs and people cannot judge entire groups because everyone is a snowflake and different, thats asking too much. In otherwords, official political recognition and apology has not happen and extends to the rest of those who consider themselves japanese, simple as that.
Considering the issue, it could be comparable to taking a Nazi flag and parading it in Israel. Smart huh. I would say they are lucky they are women and didn't get physically educated on not doing that kind of shit.
It just so happens that Japanese culture seems very inviting to the Western world and it is easy to think that you are integrated part of their culture, and that does draw sympathy and attention, whether or not it does you, Manefesto, is another question. In that sense, statements such as "it is unreasonable for these Chinese or Korean people to hate the Japanese" is cliche for what people have encountered, particularly in North America.
As to other points where you state they have accomodated some information of World War II into their education system, it is a small step into a large large pond. They still have Koreans laborers who were brought over in World War II and still cannot obtain legal citizenship. The media spread of looking down on Koreans does not limit itself to one certain case, it is a wave that is shared like the hate in the other two countries.
There is a reason for the animosity; some have let it go, especially amongst those who have immigrated, and others don't. It's their personal choice. If you want a representation of the people that you want to use, use the government's. I don't know whether that is the case in Korea, but at least in China the view is quite closely streamlined with the stance that the government has taken.
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Mani, after reading your post again, from your post, it seems as if the Japanese government does try to minimize the significance of the atrocities, such as: through usage of words. It appears that the Japanese do not truly understand the context of the history they are taught because the government tries to minimize whatever negativity that comes towards themselves. I've never confirmed in person, but I have heard that the Japanese government has undergone quite a bit of historical revisionism in their history texts, even beyond the WWII era. The government still does skirt around the issue of comfort women, which cannot be denied at all, and although this may be beyond the issue of texts, it's still relevant to the issue of denial.
I mean, if many Europeans, including the Germans, are generally fully aware of the atrocities that were committed in the midst of WWII, is it not peculiar that many Asians whose nation was swept through by the Japanese military in WWII are fully aware of the atrocities that were committed except the Japanese themselves? I mean, even if, as you say, the Japanese students learn about it in school, if they just simply forget much of it due to them focusing just purely on memorization with no emotion, doesn't that just show us that the Japanese government -is- trying to minimize the significance of the events by trivializing it? Even if the Germans and Japanese are culturally different, the difference of how the information is taken is staggeringly different to an unacceptable level.
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On July 06 2009 14:10 Manifesto7 wrote:
\
Finally, to compare Germany and Japan, and expect them to do the same things, shows an incredible ignorance of cultural behaviour, the type of ignorance you ranted about earlier in this thread.
\
Care to elaborate on this?
Any way you put it, i think there exist a HUGE difference (something I really doubt can be fully indebted to cultural differences) in government and national attitude; while Germany established holocaust memorials, japanese political figures pay publicibly pay respect in the yasukni shrine, which houses many of the war criminals
Ok, you could still argue that this is merely due to a cultural difference. How about this: it's hard to deny that the national attitude toward the wwii is vastly different between the average german and the japanese; most germans condemns the nazi regime as a shameful period in german history while japanese do not seem to consider the colonialism of korea all taht regrettable. Somehow, the japanese education has failed to impose even a similar level of awareness of war crimes as the german education has. This alone should be a cause for alarm.
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Osaka27178 Posts
On July 06 2009 14:17 koreasilver wrote:
I suppose the Korean propaganda I've been hearing for the past years were incorrect then.
edit: this isn't sarcastic.
However, from your post, it seems as if the Japanese government does try to minimize the significance of the atrocities, particularly through usage of words. The government still does skirt around the issue of comfort women, which cannot be denied at all, and although this may be beyond the issue of texts, it's still relevant to the issue of denial.
On the issue of comfort women, I agree, the government has never simply admitted fault. There has always been a loophole or an omission or something. I think it is so unfortunate that Japan cannot simply apologize, as that would take a lot of the wind out of the sails of anti-Japanese sentiment. It doesn't help that the very few media pieces produced about it have been rather revisionist as well.
One thing I talked about with Okuno-sensei is the evenhandedness in history classes. I asked whether this would still be the case if Japan had been on the winning side. I think it is natural for countries to downplay the worst parts of their history. I am not saying it is right, just natural. Another example is that the Chinese have built their culture on the deification of Mao and distortion of history.
Atrocities are minimized through sanitation. The facts are there, but the emotion of the event is not. This is tied to a system of education which promotes the "filling of empty vessels" style, and cannot really be seen as overt attempts by the government to influence the system.
Another issue similar to this is the treatment of Okinawan Japanese at the hands of the army. They were forced into suicide (paradoxical term?) and told to jump off cliffs before the Americans came. Citizens were tortured after being accused of spying. Okinawan's protested the government's rewording of this history as well.
The issue of face vs honesty is tough. The Japanese way seems to be admitting as much as necessary to survive, and nothing more. Nothing can really change the history, so admitting it could really do more good than harm. Honestly, I don't think other Asian governments want that though, because as long as Japan stays mum, they have a rallying cry for the population.
edit- Since you edited. I can't comment whether this sterile type of education is a government plot to sanitize it's deeds or not. I obviously don't have that much experience. I think it is more a byproduct of the system rather than the aim.
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Osaka27178 Posts
On July 06 2009 14:30 Creationism wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 14:10 Manifesto7 wrote:I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the point where you said "Japanese people don't learn this". Not quite sure how you missed that. I think my post gives a little insight onto how much and why Japanese learn what they do. it just simply seems like they don't give a fuck. edit - And the rest of your post is just emotional flame baiting. I'm sorry I took the time to go and bring back something of interest. Finally, to compare Germany and Japan, and expect them to do the same things, shows an incredible ignorance of cultural behaviour, the type of ignorance you ranted about earlier in this thread. People who do not have origins from China or Korea don't fully understand the cultural effect of the war simply because they have no understanding of the cultures in those countries to begin with. If the government in the country doesn't represent the people.... then what does. In other words, the representation of actions is done through political means. You may say that a SINGLE opinion differs and people cannot judge entire groups because everyone is a snowflake and different, thats asking too much. In otherwords, official political recognition and apology has not happen and extends to the rest of those who consider themselves japanese, simple as that. Considering the issue, it could be comparable to taking a Nazi flag and parading it in Israel. Smart huh. I would say they are lucky they are women and didn't get physically educated on not doing that kind of shit. It just so happens that Japanese culture seems very inviting to the Western world and it is easy to think that you are integrated part of their culture, and that does draw sympathy and attention, whether or not it does you, Manefesto, is another question. In that sense, statements such as "it is unreasonable for these Chinese or Korean people to hate the Japanese" is cliche for what people have encountered, particularly in North America. As to other points where you state they have accomodated some information of World War II into their education system, it is a small step into a large large pond. They still have Koreans laborers who were brought over in World War II and still cannot obtain legal citizenship. The media spread of looking down on Koreans does not limit itself to one certain case, it is a wave that is shared like the hate in the other two countries. There is a reason for the animosity; some have let it go, especially amongst those who have immigrated, and others don't. It's their personal choice. If you want a representation of the people that you want to use, use the government's. I don't know whether that is the case in Korea, but at least in China the view is quite closely streamlined with the stance that the government has taken.
Maybe I am pessimistic, but I really don't believe the government of any country adequately represents the people. I think it represents only a very small portion of them. I think if you were to poll the average Japanese person, they would show a lot more remorse than if you polled the government. But again, that is just my opinion.
Almost every soldier in every army during WWII was caught up in a system, and a series of events, far beyond what he or she could control. To blame individual people 60 years after the fact seems futile to me. The focus should be on the system that allowed it to take place.
I don't want to get into a debate about the Chinese government system, but the pressure the government has put on the populace to conform to it's views in the past fifty years may have created an artificial tie.
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Regardless of whether it is a byproduct of the system or the aim, if the education leads to such attitude and awareness (or lack of one) of the general japanese populace, it should be amended. That the japanese governement seems so adamant in keeping their ways, despite strong complaints from neighboring nations, makes me suspect that this kind of education, in fact, was not a byproduct but was intended all along.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On July 06 2009 14:51 Manifesto7 wrote:
Maybe I am pessimistic, but I really don't believe the government of any country adequately represents the people. I think it represents only a very small portion of them. I think if you were to poll the average Japanese person, they would show a lot more remorse than if you polled the government. But again, that is just my opinion.
Almost every soldier in every army during WWII was caught up in a system, and a series of events, far beyond what he or she could control. To blame individual people 60 years after the fact seems futile to me. The focus should be on the system that allowed it to take place.
I don't want to get into a debate about the Chinese government system, but the pressure the government has put on the populace to conform to it's views in the past fifty years may have created an artificial tie.
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On July 06 2009 14:41 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 14:17 koreasilver wrote:
I suppose the Korean propaganda I've been hearing for the past years were incorrect then.
edit: this isn't sarcastic.
However, from your post, it seems as if the Japanese government does try to minimize the significance of the atrocities, particularly through usage of words. The government still does skirt around the issue of comfort women, which cannot be denied at all, and although this may be beyond the issue of texts, it's still relevant to the issue of denial. On the issue of comfort women, I agree, the government has never simply admitted fault. There has always been a loophole or an omission or something. I think it is so unfortunate that Japan cannot simply apologize, as that would take a lot of the wind out of the sails of anti-Japanese sentiment. It doesn't help that the very few media pieces produced about it have been rather revisionist as well. One thing I talked about with Okuno-sensei is the evenhandedness in history classes. I asked whether this would still be the case if Japan had been on the winning side. I think it is natural for countries to downplay the worst parts of their history. I am not saying it is right, just natural. Another example is that the Chinese have built their culture on the deification of Mao and distortion of history. Atrocities are minimized through sanitation. The facts are there, but the emotion of the event is not. This is tied to a system of education which promotes the "filling of empty vessels" style, and cannot really be seen as overt attempts by the government to influence the system. Another issue similar to this is the treatment of Okinawan Japanese at the hands of the army. They were forced into suicide (paradoxical term?) and told to jump off cliffs before the Americans came. Citizens were tortured after being accused of spying. Okinawan's protested the government's rewording of this history as well. The issue of face vs honesty is tough. The Japanese way seems to be admitting as much as necessary to survive, and nothing more. Nothing can really change the history, so admitting it could really do more good than harm. Honestly, I don't think other Asian governments want that though, because as long as Japan stays mum, they have a rallying cry for the population. edit- Since you edited. I can't comment whether this sterile type of education is a government plot to sanitize it's deeds or not. I obviously don't have that much experience. I think it is more a byproduct of the system rather than the aim.
Understood, but can you explain more about the "filling of empty vessels" style of education?
On July 06 2009 14:27 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2009 14:17 koreasilver wrote:
I suppose the Korean propaganda I've been hearing for the past years were incorrect then.
edit: this isn't sarcastic. Korean Propaganda is fucking amazing SBS and KBS are run by the goverment making MBC the only channel to tell the truth
Do you remember how every single media outlet was bashing the living hell out of NMH during the scandal thing and then suddenly turn 180 degrees after he died and nearly the entire country went in uproar? That week made me scoff; it was a complete circus show.
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On July 05 2009 15:42 GhostKorean wrote:haha That's really nice of Korea. Everything I read these days makes me want to go visit Korea more and more
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Osaka27178 Posts
On July 06 2009 14:53 v1rtu0so wrote:
Regardless of whether it is a byproduct of the system or the aim, if the education leads to such attitude and awareness (or lack of one) of the general japanese populace, it should be amended. That the japanese governement seems so adamant in keeping their ways, despite strong complaints from neighboring nations, makes me suspect that this kind of education, in fact, was not a byproduct but was intended all along.
This is for your last two posts.
It is a little tricky for me to comment, because obviously I am not Japanese and did not grow up in the culture. Let's just say that the evidence I see is that this type of education came along long before WWII, and if it were an evil plot I wonder why it would extend to every other subject area as well.
What Japan has become should be as much a testament of how they feel as what they haven't said. While there may not be the amount of awareness other countries want to see, the fact remains that there also does not exist this strong nationalistic tendency that exists in other countries too. Japan has no standing army, and it's population, while xenophobic, looks at others with curiosity rather than the malice other countries see them.
The Japanese prefer to deal with the war in other ways. Obviously it does not improve relations with the neighbors (and I really think they should, because it would defuse so much of the animosity and improve Japan's standing) but at the end of the day there is a population here which is pacifistic.
I'll tell you what though. The constant harping at Japan about WWII gives ammunition to the right wing elements here who want desperately want to see a rebirth of the society from 100 years ago. For now that wing is relegated to the noisy speaker trucks that rumble around, but who knows?
In the meantime, I know that when my students and the Korean students meet each year, that it is a lot of fun, and nobody breaks out into kimigaiyo.
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Osaka27178 Posts
On July 06 2009 15:03 koreasilver wrote:
Understood, but can you explain more about the "filling of empty vessels" style of education?
Sure. Japanese education is about test taking. The teacher stands at the front of the class and deposits knowledge (water) into the students (empty vessels). The students then spill that water onto their test, and move onto the next test. These tests determine which school (HS or university) they can next attend.
One of the main goals of education is to mold the student into the type of citizen they need to be in order to function in the workforce. I would say that is more important. Obviously this does not lead students to ask many questions, or analyze the issues. Talking with Okuno-sensei, he was a little disappointed to leave his last school because there he had a special history class where he could use audio/video, and discuss history, rather than just read the textbook to the class.
That is why I think that Japan could write everything about the war in their textbooks, and it wouldn't matter. The way education works here is that it is just a series of data, whether it be history, math, or English.
The real impact is made when students travel to Hiroshima to see the war museum and a-bomb dome. I guess they could travel to Korea and be exposed there too.
edit- One example... I did a letter exchange with Ghana last year, and part of the exchange was examining how Ghanaian children have to harvest cacao, but have never tasted chocolate. I asked my students "would you give them chocolate?". This is always a tough thing to do, because it is goes against how they normally learn. Forming an opinion may be ok, but justifying it is tough.
The American exchange students that were there then opened up with a heated discussion about it, talking loudly and shooting down points. My students were overwhelmed within seconds.
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Osaka27178 Posts
Anyway, obviously I am not Japanese, and I didn't really come here to be an apologist for the country (although maybe they need me to be lolol). I just thought I would give some perspective on what I see. I also thought that showing the opinion of Okuno-sensei, who has to deal with it every day, might give some value too.
I'm going to go bike home in the heat and eat chicken and drink beer. Thanks for the interesting talk. I'll read anything else you wanna talk about tonight or tomorrow when I should be working.
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As someone who lived in Okinawa, I'll verify that as far as I've seen, Mani is being pretty straight up about it. The Koreans should take a page out of the Okinawan book, too.
Furthermore, all of this continued hate from previous generations is just childishness. Grow up and move on.
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EPT
