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On June 04 2009 07:25 Gokey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2009 07:12 Lucktar wrote:
I've been on antidepressants for about 2 years, and I've had no really significant side effects. To my understanding, the suicide risk works something like this:
Deeply depressed Bob is deeply depressed. Can't be arsed to do much of anything, but eventually gets some help and starts taking antidepressants.
The antidepressants start to kick in and stir Bob out of his listlessness after a while, but with a problem. Bob is still very depressed. Only now, he's got more motivation. That is to say, he is much more likely to act on those suicidal thoughts he's been contemplating than he was several weeks prior.
I didn't experience a scenario like this, but antidepressants affect different people very differently. It's always good if you're starting on antidepressants to avoid being alone constantly, and to let somebody know what's going on so they can check up on you. The suicidal tendencies are usually rather short-lived, but they do happen.
EDIT: Just wanted to add that although the OP only mentioned 1 instance of antidepressants leading to suicide, there have been a pretty decent number of reported cases, and many antidepressants now carry suicide warnings on the packaging info. When people are truely in severe depression, they don't have the motivation to do anything, even suicide.
lol
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If I recall correctly:
There's a well documented link between antidepressants and suicide.
The warnings on antidepressants drugs tell you to immediately stop taking the drugs and see your doctor if suicidal thoughts don't abate or increase.
Also people who don't suffer from depression taking antidepressants can lead to increased suicide.
I am not a doctor. Don't take important medical advice from the internet. Talk to your psychiatrist if you have any serious questions.
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i think the link is between being depressed and suicide
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On June 04 2009 09:47 stroggos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2009 07:25 Gokey wrote:On June 04 2009 07:12 Lucktar wrote:
I've been on antidepressants for about 2 years, and I've had no really significant side effects. To my understanding, the suicide risk works something like this:
Deeply depressed Bob is deeply depressed. Can't be arsed to do much of anything, but eventually gets some help and starts taking antidepressants.
The antidepressants start to kick in and stir Bob out of his listlessness after a while, but with a problem. Bob is still very depressed. Only now, he's got more motivation. That is to say, he is much more likely to act on those suicidal thoughts he's been contemplating than he was several weeks prior.
I didn't experience a scenario like this, but antidepressants affect different people very differently. It's always good if you're starting on antidepressants to avoid being alone constantly, and to let somebody know what's going on so they can check up on you. The suicidal tendencies are usually rather short-lived, but they do happen.
EDIT: Just wanted to add that although the OP only mentioned 1 instance of antidepressants leading to suicide, there have been a pretty decent number of reported cases, and many antidepressants now carry suicide warnings on the packaging info. When people are truely in severe depression, they don't have the motivation to do anything, even suicide. lol
I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, but that is what they teach in medical schools, at least in the United States.
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On June 04 2009 07:12 Lucktar wrote:
I've been on antidepressants for about 2 years, and I've had no really significant side effects. To my understanding, the suicide risk works something like this:
Deeply depressed Bob is deeply depressed. Can't be arsed to do much of anything, but eventually gets some help and starts taking antidepressants.
The antidepressants start to kick in and stir Bob out of his listlessness after a while, but with a problem. Bob is still very depressed. Only now, he's got more motivation. That is to say, he is much more likely to act on those suicidal thoughts he's been contemplating than he was several weeks prior.
I didn't experience a scenario like this, but antidepressants affect different people very differently. It's always good if you're starting on antidepressants to avoid being alone constantly, and to let somebody know what's going on so they can check up on you. The suicidal tendencies are usually rather short-lived, but they do happen.
EDIT: Just wanted to add that although the OP only mentioned 1 instance of antidepressants leading to suicide, there have been a pretty decent number of reported cases, and many antidepressants now carry suicide warnings on the packaging info.
Was anyone reminded of Stephan Pastis's Pearls Before Swine when reading about deeply depressed Bob?
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United States3824 Posts
From what I understand people who are severely depressed can get to a point where its is difficult to even get out of bed. The Antidepressants give you enough motivation to kill yourself. They don't actually create the thoughts of suicide.
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yes there is a very strong link between prozac and suicide
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I think you guys are confusing sadness with laziness. Like most people here, I am very lazy but very happy 
I think "depression" is a mix of both, and I suspect the anti-depressants might cure more laziness than sadness I suppose. Though I will proly never know for sure and don't really want to lol
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its good to see that some here on tl aren't deluded by the idea that depression is a "disease", that sufferers are immune from personal responsibility
that "its a chemical imbalance" argument that you hear from depressed celebrities looking to preserve their own sense of worth is far too widely accepted imo
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On June 04 2009 14:10 no_comprender wrote:
its good to see that some here on tl aren't deluded by the idea that depression is a "disease", that sufferers are immune from personal responsibility
that "its a chemical imbalance" argument that you hear from depressed celebrities looking to preserve their own sense of worth is far too widely accepted imo
There are people with real chemical imbalances in their brain, and people who aren't. I don't think one should jump to conclusions simply because some people are not clinically depressed but blame their problems on factors other than themselves using this method.
In any case, I personally believe that it's possible that there's at least some sort of link between anti-depressant use in some cases and increased suicidal thoughts. I really don't think a "one size fits all" approach is good for treating illnesses like depression, and in some cases I imagine that it may cause problems. Either the drug doesn't treat the symptoms correctly or can even make it worse. The disclaimers on most anti-depressant advertisements indicate that the manufacturers aren't confident that there is no relationship.
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It's a definable illness that a lot of people don't realize. It's not simply being sad, or being lonely, or having a comparatively shitty life. It's something different, observable, definable, and yes, treatable.
I've tried 1 SSRI, and an NaSSA in dealing with severe anxiety and depression. Mostly anxiety. People tell you to relax or to chill our or to cheer up and that's not how it works. When only certain pistons are firing in your brain that effect how you feel, then nomatter how many times you tell them to cheer up, they won't.
(Depression and Anxiety disorders go hand in hand so I will talk about about Anxiety aswell here.)
The symptoms of both are real physical symptoms. Within 5 minutes of a trigger, I could get the worst diarrhea of my life, lasting for days because my brain perceives something harmless as a threat, and the spiral continues until it really fucks up my eating and sleeping. I have been diagnosed with GAD, Depression (closely tied together,) and Anorexia because of the physical symptoms I receive from the GAD.
The problem is that, though it is real, it's very difficult to diagnose because of how situational a lot of the symptoms can be and because of how a lot western medicine is treated. It's much easier to give someone a prescription for effexor that it is to really fully analyze them to figure out what they're dealing with.
There's no doubt that they are prescribed way too often, to people without disorders or chemical imbalances that require alteration, but instead to people who are simply sad or stressed situationally.
It's not a decision to be sad or to cause drama, it's areas of your brain that perceive threats and emotions that become either under active or hyper active, creating a feeling of dread. Nothing in life appeals to you, not even the things or people you used to love. With anxiety, something VERY tiny can trigger a spiral that can start me down and cause me 30-45 hours of no sleep or food and being very physically ill and dizzy, without being afflicted by any bug or disease. And despite the fact that you KNOW it's anxiety, you know it's in your head, that realization and rationalizing does nothing to sooth a brain that is firing it's stress fight-or-flight response.
Currently, an effective treatment for me is Take-as-needed Clonazepam, a benzodiazapine which slows down the central nervous system. This type of medication, antianxiolitic virtually wipes away these responses that my body gets simply by sedating it and pulling you out of that spiral.
It's not a happy pill, infact it does nothing to raise mood other than how happy you might feel to not be anxious. Sadly, Benzo's are short term relievers for anxiety as they are habit forming, cause withdrawals as you come off and your body grows a tolerance to it.
As for Anti-depressants, there are many different kinds working on many different receptors. Each one has an associated "If you have thoughts of suicide, consult a physician immediately!" warning. I've researched this a bit and asked my psychiatrist who told me that the link is merely there because people who tend to need AD's, are the same types that are so fucked up that they might slight their throat.
AD's do not cause thoughts of suicide. It would be weird to create a drug that could accurately produce a thought such as suicide and persuade you into doing it.
AD's have some side effects as you come on and come off. These include Anxiety, and a bunch of physical ailments that suck. It's not uncommon for people to become more depressed during the initial few weeks of starting an AD because those side effects suck. Also, each AD effects people differently.
The truth is though, AD's DO help many people. The effects are not imaginary, and they are not happy pills. They do not "make you happier," they just slowly take away a cloud that looms inside you telling you that your life is meaningless. It takes away physical manifestations of depression and anxiety that could otherwise make it nearly impossible to lead a normal life.
The link makes me angry. "X and Y school shooters were on Anti-depressants! Holy shit!"
Yeah well, when a kid is REALLY fucked up, doctors try things like giving them medication that _MIGHT_ help them, sometimes it doesn't and sometimes they kill people.
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On June 04 2009 14:10 no_comprender wrote:
its good to see that some here on tl aren't deluded by the idea that depression is a "disease", that sufferers are immune from personal responsibility
that "its a chemical imbalance" argument that you hear from depressed celebrities looking to preserve their own sense of worth is far too widely accepted imo
There are many causes for depression. When you see celebrities on TV whining about how people don't understand how hard their life is, it isn't a chemical imbalance in their brain, but rather the result of the lifestyle they choose. In cases like that, a change in lifestyle would perhaps be more beneficial than an anti-depressant.
However, there are chemical imbalances in the brain that can cause depression regardless of environment/lifestyle, which could classify it as a "disease" or disorder. People with defects in the seratonin transporter gene are much more likely to suffer symptoms of depression than those with a normal gene. In cases like these, or in cases where people need additional help coping with whatever is going on in their lives, the supervised use of anti-depressants, such as SSRIs like Prozac, can help alleviate the symptoms of depression.
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On June 04 2009 14:24 Grommit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2009 14:10 no_comprender wrote:
its good to see that some here on tl aren't deluded by the idea that depression is a "disease", that sufferers are immune from personal responsibility
that "its a chemical imbalance" argument that you hear from depressed celebrities looking to preserve their own sense of worth is far too widely accepted imo There are many causes for depression. When you see celebrities on TV whining about how people don't understand how hard their life is, it isn't a chemical imbalance in their brain, but rather the result of the lifestyle they choose. In cases like that, a change in lifestyle would perhaps be more beneficial than an anti-depressant. However, there are chemical imbalances in the brain that can cause depression regardless of environment/lifestyle, which could classify it as a "disease" or disorder. People with defects in the seratonin transporter gene are much more likely to suffer symptoms of depression than those with a normal gene. In cases like these, or in cases where people need additional help coping with whatever is going on in their lives, the supervised use of anti-depressants, such as SSRIs like Prozac, can help alleviate the symptoms of depression.
A good post.
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On June 04 2009 14:10 no_comprender wrote:
its good to see that some here on tl aren't deluded by the idea that depression is a "disease", that sufferers are immune from personal responsibility
that "its a chemical imbalance" argument that you hear from depressed celebrities looking to preserve their own sense of worth is far too widely accepted imo
You're absolutely right. Clearly chemical processes within the brain have absolutely no effect on what a person feels, and even if they did it's totally inconceivable that they run abnormally in certain people. What a ridiculous concept, using medicine to combat physical abnormalities which prevent people from functioning in society. Why, it's downright preposterous.
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i'm hardly suggesting that people with real depression don't have a real problem, or that there aren't people who do suffer from mental illness that they can't control. but a persons own actions and thoughts have far more of an effect on your brain chemistry than supposed 'random fluctuations' that aren't random and happen for a reason.
i think many alleviate the blame on themselves for not doing as much as they could have due to that kind of view. a psychiatrist i know who says probably 70% of people coming to his practice claiming to have depression (and often seeking medication) are not even close to having the type of depression that requires treatment, yet due to the media buzz assume they have some chemical imbalance that needs to be medicated and go straight to the doctor before thinking about how they can fix the problem themselves.
the thing people don't realize about mental illness is that the depression/schizophrenia/whatever is YOU, it's not a foreign pathogen that infected you somehow, it is an aspect of who you are no matter how you try and deny it. yeah you might feel happier on the drugs, but thats you on drugs, not the real you somehow freed of an affliction. a person has a right to seek medication if they wish, but REAL recovery and management of mental illness is 99% perspiration, the drugs are only a band-aid
of course some people are so fucked up they don't have the capacity to help themselves, but attitudes like that one i derided enable people to give up easier because they think it's not their fault. and that's why i think those attitudes are damaging
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On June 04 2009 16:14 no_comprender wrote:
i'm hardly suggesting that people with real depression don't have a real problem, or that there aren't people who do suffer from mental illness that they can't control. but a persons own actions and thoughts have far more of an effect on your brain chemistry than supposed 'random fluctuations' that aren't random and happen for a reason.
i think many alleviate the blame on themselves for not doing as much as they could have due to that kind of view. a psychiatrist i know who says probably 70% of people coming to his practice claiming to have depression (and often seeking medication) are not even close to having the type of depression that requires treatment, yet due to the media buzz assume they have some chemical imbalance that needs to be medicated and go straight to the doctor before thinking about how they can fix the problem themselves.
the thing people don't realize about mental illness is that the depression/schizophrenia/whatever is YOU, it's not a foreign pathogen that infected you somehow, it is an aspect of who you are no matter how you try and deny it. yeah you might feel happier on the drugs, but thats you on drugs, not the real you somehow freed of an affliction. a person has a right to seek medication if they wish, but REAL recovery and management of mental illness is 99% perspiration, the drugs are only a band-aid
of course some people are so fucked up they don't have the capacity to help themselves, but attitudes like that one i derided enable people to give up easier because they think it's not their fault. and that's why i think those attitudes are damaging
Don't treat it like a weakness. It's something most people don't have and limits you a lot. Why not take a medication that was specifically designed to _CORRECT_ the imbalance? I agree about the 70% who show up thinking they have it and don't, but the 30% aren't insane. They simply have a chemical disorder. It can be partially corrected with medication, partially corrected with CBT therapy, and partially corrected with diet and exercise. But it's still a limiting disability that you don't have. That's like saying "You CAN walk without that cain, it just takes perspiration!" to a bunch of old people.
People who are on SSRI wish they didn't have to be on it. It doesn't make them happier than the general populous, and most only report mild/moderate relief of symptoms of depression and anxiety. Yes, it's you on a drug. Tylenol is you on a drug. Having a beer is you on a drug. Walking with a Cain is you on a Cain.
Maybe it is a bandaid. But sometimes bandaids are necessary. Sometimes Cains are necessary. They're both designed to give people the ability to live normally without risking injury or worsening the condition.
Don't diminish the real medical need and relief that modern science has for this incredibly painful and dangerous illness.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
it's pretty incredible how people like foucault have the audacity to post on a complex subject armed only with wikipedia blurbs and a few googled papers. really, you think that sitting in front of your computer playing e-psychiatrist qualifies you to dismiss entire categories of drugs? really?
sure, i realize using mental disorders as a blanket excuse for poor life choices is weak. but between you suggesting that problems such as depression manifest solely from external forces or some clown saying that it's the direct result of faults in the constitution of a person is... unbelievable. look - you can come up with your own theories on why these people are 'sad' but i can't imagine anyone who has not experienced it before to understand what it feels like to have a severe depressive episode. it's not something you can just brush off by going 'oh yay today i'm going to meet people! and make a to-do list! hang out with friends!'
if you are arguing that drugs aren't a surefire solution for every single person in the world, or that alternate forms of therapy may have equal or even more merit, well no shit good job being profound. how can people have such uninformed but polarized opinions?
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People who take anti-depressants are usually depressed ...Hmm... That doesn't make any sense, it's usually all the manically happy people who commit suicide!
Did you know there is a correlation between drinking coffee and lung cancer? Also between wearing sunscreen and skin cancer! Correlation is not causation.
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On June 04 2009 17:17 intrigue wrote:
it's pretty incredible how people like foucault have the audacity to post on a complex subject armed only with wikipedia blurbs and a few googled papers. really, you think that sitting in front of your computer playing e-psychiatrist qualifies you to dismiss entire categories of drugs? really?
sure, i realize using mental disorders as a blanket excuse for poor life choices is weak. but between you suggesting that problems such as depression manifest solely from external forces or some clown saying that it's the direct result of faults in the constitution of a person is... unbelievable. look - you can come up with your own theories on why these people are 'sad' but i can't imagine anyone who has not experienced it before to understand what it feels like to have a severe depressive episode. it's not something you can just brush off by going 'oh yay today i'm going to meet people! and make a to-do list! hang out with friends!'
if you are arguing that drugs aren't a surefire solution for every single person in the world, or that alternate forms of therapy may have equal or even more merit, well no shit good job being profound. how can people have such uninformed but polarized opinions?
I have no idea where you get the audacity from to be condenscending towards me, when not having the slightest idea of my backgroud. I've eaten 6 different SSRI:s, gotten 4-5 different diagnosis; depression, anxiety bs. I feel good right now, I'm soon done with my education and I don't eat any meds. Also I've written essays on psychiatry, I've studied psychology for a couple of semesters at uni as well and i've read books on SSRI/SNRI and medical companies.
So please, for the love of god shut up.
Also you don't seem to have any real clue about what depression is, and I assume you yourself or someone close to you has been severly depressed judging by your tone. Depression is a real state of being, but calling it a "disease" and creating patients out of people with the use of SSRI is so stupid. And YES, I believe almost any depression can be fixed with proper nutrition, exercise, having connections with other people, lifestyle etc. Since these are the things that create depression in the first place. Do you think it just happens usually for no reason whatsoever? There's ALWAYS a reason that something happens.
People need to look at our society more for the roots of depression.
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On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote:
It's a definable illness that a lot of people don't realize. It's not simply being sad, or being lonely, or having a comparatively shitty life. It's something different, observable, definable, and yes, treatable.
A "definable" illness, lol. Sure it's vaguely describable but 2 different people can both be depressed without even having the same symptoms. Speaking of criterias for "mental illness" is very sketchy. Different psychiatrists give people different diagnosis, there isn't any REAL mental illness comparable to physical illness, since they can't be measured in a scientific way. They are effects of a faulty environment, lifestyle etc. Which definately doesn't have to be the persons fault, so don't get me wrong here.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote:
I've tried 1 SSRI, and an NaSSA in dealing with severe anxiety and depression. Mostly anxiety. People tell you to relax or to chill our or to cheer up and that's not how it works. When only certain pistons are firing in your brain that effect how you feel, then nomatter how many times you tell them to cheer up, they won't.
Yeah I know what you mean. It's very hard to change how you feel sometimes, because your brain isn't listening to logic. However, everyone gets this once in a while. Ride it out, why is anxiety so bad? It's a perfectly healthy mechanism that is momentarily out of hand.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote:
(Depression and Anxiety disorders go hand in hand so I will talk about about Anxiety aswell here.)
The symptoms of both are real physical symptoms. Within 5 minutes of a trigger, I could get the worst diarrhea of my life, lasting for days because my brain perceives something harmless as a threat, and the spiral continues until it really fucks up my eating and sleeping. I have been diagnosed with GAD, Depression (closely tied together,) and Anorexia because of the physical symptoms I receive from the GAD.
GAD...how is that even a real "illness"? It's a term used for anxiety that doctors can't label. So if that anxiety stems from the fact that you truly hate your job for example, why is there even a vague diagnosis for it. Btw, GAD is one of those diagnosis that has been created by medical companies in order to get a new market share for new medications; ie Efexor and later on pretty much any SSRI. If you don't believe me, go read books on the matter because I have, and these books are serious business. Don't be so gullible please, question your diagnosis. In fact I think I could probably help you more than any doctor or medication.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote:
The problem is that, though it is real, it's very difficult to diagnose because of how situational a lot of the symptoms can be and because of how a lot western medicine is treated. It's much easier to give someone a prescription for effexor that it is to really fully analyze them to figure out what they're dealing with.
Yeah, that's the main issue here. Psychiatry is so influenced by general medicine that it has adopted it's ways of treating, namely with medication. Should you even treat psychological conditions with medication? Almost in no cases imo. Go to the root of the problems, don't just patch up sociological issues with medications becuase of the fact that people are anxious and depressed in a tougher society where you feel you need to be superman in order to be alright and acceptable.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote:
There's no doubt that they are prescribed way too often, to people without disorders or chemical imbalances that require alteration, but instead to people who are simply sad or stressed situationally.
Yeah and not even psychiatrists can tell the difference in a convincing manner. Chemical imbalances are a result of stuff happening outside of you or your thoughts about what is happening. It doesn't just happen without no outside influence.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote:
It's not a decision to be sad or to cause drama, it's areas of your brain that perceive threats and emotions that become either under active or hyper active, creating a feeling of dread. Nothing in life appeals to you, not even the things or people you used to love. With anxiety, something VERY tiny can trigger a spiral that can start me down and cause me 30-45 hours of no sleep or food and being very physically ill and dizzy, without being afflicted by any bug or disease. And despite the fact that you KNOW it's anxiety, you know it's in your head, that realization and rationalizing does nothing to sooth a brain that is firing it's stress fight-or-flight response.
Yeah it can be tough, definately. But ask yourself other stuff; Do you work out? Do you eat alot of refined sugars, drink coffee, smoke, do drugs etc etc. Do you get a healthy dose of vitamins? Enough magnesium, B-vitamins, Fish oil? These kind of nutritional supplements and avoiding bad stuff mentioned above, make wonders for many people.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote:
Currently, an effective treatment for me is Take-as-needed Clonazepam, a benzodiazapine which slows down the central nervous system. This type of medication, antianxiolitic virtually wipes away these responses that my body gets simply by sedating it and pulling you out of that spiral.
Yeah and will you ever learn to cope with life without a crutch? Anti-anxiolitic medication is some of the most counter-productive medication there is.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote:
It's not a happy pill, infact it does nothing to raise mood other than how happy you might feel to not be anxious. Sadly, Benzo's are short term relievers for anxiety as they are habit forming, cause withdrawals as you come off and your body grows a tolerance to it.
Which makes me wonder why the first option for treatment isn't cutting back on stimulants, coffee, sugar, nicotine and adding in workouts and proper nutrition. There's no habit forming, withdrawals or tolerance there. Geez, this medical paradigm of medication for everything is retarded.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote:
As for Anti-depressants, there are many different kinds working on many different receptors. Each one has an associated "If you have thoughts of suicide, consult a physician immediately!" warning. I've researched this a bit and asked my psychiatrist who told me that the link is merely there because people who tend to need AD's, are the same types that are so fucked up that they might slight their throat.
AD's do not cause thoughts of suicide. It would be weird to create a drug that could accurately produce a thought such as suicide and persuade you into doing it.
AD's have some side effects as you come on and come off. These include Anxiety, and a bunch of physical ailments that suck. It's not uncommon for people to become more depressed during the initial few weeks of starting an AD because those side effects suck. Also, each AD effects people differently.
Then again your psychiatrist REALLY doesn't know that at all. He tells you what he's been told my medical companies, who want to sell their products. Stop being so gullible, that goes for all of yous. I think SSRI-medication can definately provoke suicidal thoughts in perfectly normal people. There are tons of people whos lives have been fucked up by medication, while there weren't that many problems in the first place. There's nothing accurate about anti-depressants at all. They are based on a vague theory of Serotonine (Yeah, it's a theory) that probably isn't all that good. The idea that one single fucking transmittor substance should control how we feel entirely is truly preposterous and naive, and this has been discussed alot in the medical community the last couple of years.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote:
The truth is though, AD's DO help many people. The effects are not imaginary, and they are not happy pills. They do not "make you happier," they just slowly take away a cloud that looms inside you telling you that your life is meaningless. It takes away physical manifestations of depression and anxiety that could otherwise make it nearly impossible to lead a normal life.
The link makes me angry. "X and Y school shooters were on Anti-depressants! Holy shit!"
Yeah well, when a kid is REALLY fucked up, doctors try things like giving them medication that _MIGHT_ help them, sometimes it doesn't and sometimes they kill people.
Anti-depressants also make many, many people much worse. The effects are usually very much imaginary. I don't know how many studies and test results I've seen where placebo is higher than the effect of the drug. Explain that, please. You sound exactly like an information leaflet for a random SSRI, that is written by a medical company in order to promote their money-making medication.
About school shooters, there is good reason to suspect that anti-depressants have been an inluential factor. Both columbine and the asian guy at the tech school shooting were on anti-depressants and in the Columbine case, the guys had just come off the meds. I think they were also on Ritalin. It's totally naive to think that these meds have nothing to do with behavious since they effect our brain in ways we don't even surely know.
We have on our hands essentially a generation of human guinea pigs.
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EPT
