Jade Pinkerton had an extreme personality change and tried to take her own life after taking a widely used antidepressant drug.
…
Mrs Pinkerton said she was put on Prozac in January last year for depression, which she attributes to a stressful job as a social worker. It was the first time the Wellington woman had had any psychological problems and she had never harmed herself nor thought about committing suicide.
Never taken althrough my mum has been on seroxat for many years and would say it has helped her depression. I remember seeing a documentary on the dangerous side effects of "anti-depressants" one of which was that apparently they are a bitch to stop taking with bad side effects if attempted.
Even if one case was statistically significant, it would be nearly impossible to distinguish the correlation between anti-depressant use and suicide from a potential causal relationship between anti-depressant use and suicide (what the OP is suggesting).
And even if there did exist some causal relationship between anti-depressants and suicide (which seems highly implausible), coming down on anti-depressant use based on such a relationship would still be silly. I'll give an analogous argument which I hope will reveal why: "In some cases, antibiotics exacerbate the disease they were intended to fend off. Therefore, antibiotics don't work / nobody should use antibiotics to fight bacterial diseases".
I've been on antidepressants for about 2 years, and I've had no really significant side effects. To my understanding, the suicide risk works something like this:
Deeply depressed Bob is deeply depressed. Can't be arsed to do much of anything, but eventually gets some help and starts taking antidepressants.
The antidepressants start to kick in and stir Bob out of his listlessness after a while, but with a problem. Bob is still very depressed. Only now, he's got more motivation. That is to say, he is much more likely to act on those suicidal thoughts he's been contemplating than he was several weeks prior.
I didn't experience a scenario like this, but antidepressants affect different people very differently. It's always good if you're starting on antidepressants to avoid being alone constantly, and to let somebody know what's going on so they can check up on you. The suicidal tendencies are usually rather short-lived, but they do happen.
EDIT: Just wanted to add that although the OP only mentioned 1 instance of antidepressants leading to suicide, there have been a pretty decent number of reported cases, and many antidepressants now carry suicide warnings on the packaging info.
Read an article about it yesterday, basically saying that the drugs some how change the DNA in the brain, and of course, the drug companies are out to make a profit.
On June 04 2009 07:12 Lucktar wrote: I've been on antidepressants for about 2 years, and I've had no really significant side effects. To my understanding, the suicide risk works something like this:
Deeply depressed Bob is deeply depressed. Can't be arsed to do much of anything, but eventually gets some help and starts taking antidepressants.
The antidepressants start to kick in and stir Bob out of his listlessness after a while, but with a problem. Bob is still very depressed. Only now, he's got more motivation. That is to say, he is much more likely to act on those suicidal thoughts he's been contemplating than he was several weeks prior.
I didn't experience a scenario like this, but antidepressants affect different people very differently. It's always good if you're starting on antidepressants to avoid being alone constantly, and to let somebody know what's going on so they can check up on you. The suicidal tendencies are usually rather short-lived, but they do happen.
EDIT: Just wanted to add that although the OP only mentioned 1 instance of antidepressants leading to suicide, there have been a pretty decent number of reported cases, and many antidepressants now carry suicide warnings on the packaging info.
Post is very much true... When people are truely in severe depression, they don't have the motivation to do anything, even suicide.
Sometimes the antidepressants, in the mood upswing, give the person just enough motivation to actually carry out the suicide. This is something that is well known in the medical community.
There are countless lives that have been improved with antidepressants, but of course, the naysayers are always the loudest.
On June 04 2009 07:15 BC.WeaPonX wrote: Read an article about it yesterday, basically saying that the drugs some how change the DNA in the brain, and of course, the drug companies are out to make a profit.
As somebody that's worked in a state-run mental hospital, I think there's quite a few things wrong with that article. First, he essentially claims that antipsychotic drugs don't work, and effectively make people worse. Obviously, my first-person testimonials to the contrary don't hold a lot of weight on an internet forum, but there are a lot of cases that I've seen which prove that this simply isn't the case.
Second, he way waaay overstates the extent to which drugs are pushed on people by the mental health industry. A lot of people who end up in the mental hospital are highly drug-seeking, and will gobble down anything they can to get an altered mental state. Medication is something that's very tightly controlled (mainly because the government would get its ass sued off if it wasn't), and only one of several treatments that we use.
Finally, Robert Whitaker, the interviewee in the article, doesn't really offer a fair picture of the mental health industry as a whole. I'll be the first to admit that doctors and hospitals used to do some really fucked-up stuff to patients back in the day. And there are probably some who still do. But Whitaker doesn't ever make a distinction between his criticisms of the industry of 40 years ago, and his criticisms of the industry today. The result is a pretty slanted view of what's actually going on.
man, taking a medication to cure a feeling. i still can't wrap my head around it. i know depression is an official diagnosis now, i just cant imagine not being able to get out of it.
On June 04 2009 07:38 eMbrace wrote: man, taking a medication to cure a feeling. i still can't wrap my head around it. i know depression is an official diagnosis now, i just cant imagine not being able to get out of it.
It is hard to understand depression from an outsider's point of view. From the inside, the depressed knows that their line of thinking isn't the best, but it's hard to function when your brain is lying to you about life itself.
At the same time...
Depressive realism is the proposition that people with depression have a more accurate view of reality.
Studies by psychologists Alloy and Abramson (1979) and Dobson and Franche (1989) showed that depressed people appear to have a more realistic perception of their importance, reputation, locus of control, and abilities than those who are not depressed.
People without depression are more likely to have inflated self-images and look at the world through "rose-colored glasses", thanks to cognitive dissonance elimination and a variety of other defense mechanisms.
This does not necessarily imply that a happy person is delusional or deny that some depressed individuals may be unrealistically negative (as in studies by Pacini, Muir and Epstein, 1998).
For those who are saying it's an isolated cases, there's further links dating back to 2003 of similar stories if you follow the blog link and see the comments - here's just another one of the stories:
Toran Henry was aware that his antidepressant drugs altered his personality.
"I know the Prozac I take changes me," the 17-year-old told a friend in an online conversation in May 2007. "It makes me hardout sleepy, and really angry when people do small things."
The teenager was first prescribed the antidepressant early in 2007 by Marinoto North, the youth mental health outpatient facility at North Shore Hospital. He was referred there following a self-harm attempt described as "superficial cuts" but which nevertheless resulted in a visit to the hospital's emergency department.
His second prescription was early in 2008. Once again, Toran knew what was going to happen. "It will be hard for both of us," he texted his girlfriend. "It's going to change my mood for a bit until I start feeling better." He tried to reassure his mother, Maria Bradshaw, too: "I promise not to get angry this time Mum."
Despite the apparent awareness, Toran didn't get better. "He seemed unable to control his anger and aggression the way he could when not on medication," says Bradshaw. Toran Henry died on March 20 last year. A coroner's inquest is yet to be completed.
Antidepressant usage by age. Antidepressant usage by age.
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A year later, Bradshaw is still trying to find answers about her son's death. Such is her dedication to the cause there have been five investigations into the circumstances around Toran's death - by Takapuna Grammar School, the Education Review Office, internal and external reviews by Marinoto and a police investigation on behalf of the coroner.
But Bradshaw remains unconvinced that any of them have really understood the full picture - especially in relation to Toran's use of fluoxetine, the generic form of Prozac he was prescribed.
Everywhere she looks there are gaps and omissions. It took three tests to confirm there was Prozac in Toran's blood when he died. The autopsy report missed that Toran had a black eye and fresh scrapes on his knuckles from a fight the day before. Blood tests carried out by Marinoto showed a flag for diabetes, and a vitamin B12 deficiency, but nothing was done about it.
All through his medical files there was clear evidence of Toran being a substance abuser, mainly of alcohol and sometimes party pills, but no action was taken to deal with the problem. In May 2007, Toran was again admitted to the emergency care centre at North Shore Hospital.
He told the attending doctor he had taken 60mg of Prozac that morning - three times his prescribed dose - but no one seemed to think it might be significant. Contrary to Medsafe datasheets which say overdoses can be fatal, information provided by Marinoto advises that Prozac-type drugs "are safe in overdosage".
No one noticed the inaccuracy until Bradshaw told Medsafe in January.
Bradshaw says she's driven by a simple purpose: "To ensure the Coroner has all available information on which to carry out his statutory duty to determine the cause of Toran's death, identify the circumstances leading up to it and make recommendations to prevent future deaths."
It's the only way she can see for her son's death to have meaning.
But in reading hundreds of stories of other parents who had tried to get information out to the public about what had happened when their children began taking Prozac, she realised she needed to do something different.
She says the stories of families are dismissed with all sorts of rationalisations - because they're non-scientific, because they're grieving parents who are just trying to blame somebody else and not look at themselves, and because they are people who can't come to terms with their loss.
"Just telling my story I knew was going to be dismissed - as I have been over the last year as this crazy woman who is looking to blame everyone in the universe."
Bradshaw's different tack was to apply her research skills and knowledge of the law - she graduated from Auckland University with an MBA in 2007 and worked as a court registrar in Dunedin and for Internal Affairs. The result is Lessons Learned From The Death Of Toran Tiavare Henry, a 161-page, footnoted document with appendices that reads like a bit like a thesis, which she released yesterday. The report spares no one, naming staff at Takapuna Grammar, Marinoto and elsewhere involved in Toran's care. It also lays out details about Toran's death that would normally be reserved for the coroner's hearing and "identifies deficiencies in my performance of my parental responsibilities which may have contributed to his death".
Her number one failure is that she "did not take all possible action to prevent Toran taking Prozac, which I believed was harmful to him". Bradshaw says while she monitored side-effects very closely, she should have ensured Toran did not overdose on the drug, or mix it with alcohol. Her son was among the thousands of New Zealanders prescribed anti-depressants. Pharmac figures show that in 2007/08, 1.2 million prescriptions were issued to adults, 14,733 for 6 to 18 year olds, and 72 for children aged five and under.
Bradshaw wishes she knew then what she now knows about the side effects of fluoxetine. She is particularly concerned that the psychiatrists she dealt with and the information she was given downplayed the risks.
No one told her, for example, that Prozac-type medications are not approved for use in New Zealand for people aged under 18 for the treatment of depression.
What that means, says medicines regulator Medsafe, is that informed consent must be obtained from the patient or parent prior to Prozac-type antidepressant treatment in children or adolescents. Informed consent also means properly outlining all the risks and side effects associated with the drugs - for example that overdoses can be fatal, or cause potentially fatal effects such as cardiac arrest.
What's important too, is that parents are told about the differences between approved and unapproved or "off-label" uses.
Information pamphlets given to Toran and his mother advocated a number of off-label uses including for autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and bed-wetting.
Medsafe was concerned the difference was not made clear. "Parents/carers should be informed when medicines are used outside of their approved use in order for them to make an informed decision as to whether the potential benefits of treatment outweigh the risks," said Medsafe senior pharmacovigilance adviser Susan Kenyon in a letter to Bradshaw.
In Toran's case, says Bradshaw, the prescription was off-label on two counts - Toran being under 18 and that he had not been clearly diagnosed with major depressive disorder, an authorised use of the drug for adults.
"Now that Medsafe has raised concerns about the accuracy of this document we will ensure that it is no longer handed out to patients," says Waitemata health board communications manager Lydia Aydon.
She was referring to a 2004 document, Antidepressants for Children and Youth, by child and adolescent psychiatrist professor John Werry.
Asked about another document, Antidepressant Medication: A Guide for Carers, produced by the Werry Centre for Child and Adolescent Mental Health at Auckland University, Aydon confirmed it, too, had been withdrawn.
She could not say what new information was being given to patients.
While the Werry Centre document was still available online on Friday, Werry Centre director of workforce development Sue Treanor said it was an old document and had been withdrawn.
"We are having a problem with Google cache which our web company is trying to rectify, meaning there are ghosts of withdrawn documents still in the system," she said.
Medsafe and the DHB were concerned about statements in the Werry Centre document that Prozac-type medications were "relatively safe in overdose, especially compared with older medications" and that the drugs had been "intensively studied over the last 25 years with no evidence of any long term problems arising from their use".
Medsafe group manager Dr Stewart Jessamine said there were still discrepancies with the current New Zealand data sheets.
"Vetting publications such as this does not fall under Medsafe's remit, so we will be informing the Medical Council, given this is a clinical practice issue rather than a product safety one," he said.
Jessamine said Medsafe was not responsible for material written and provided to patients by individual medical practitioners. Responsibility rested with the authors. So what exactly should parents know about the use of antidepressants for children?
Medsafe datasheets on the various drugs are a good place to start, although the language used may be difficult to understand.
But from Bradshaw's point of view, the warnings could have been more obvious.
In the United States Prozac-type drugs come with a "black box" label warning for something called activation syndrome, which the Marinoto external review panel agreed it was possible Toran had developed.
On the Medsafe datasheet under the heading "Warning: Clinical Worsening and Suicide Risk" it is described as including symptoms of anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility, aggressiveness, impulsivity and mania.
When Bradshaw raised concerns that Toran may have developed activation syndrome, she says she was told by a Marinoto doctor to "stop reading research and trust his professional judgment".
She wishes she had followed her instincts, done more research and sought a second opinion.
On June 04 2009 07:12 Lucktar wrote: I've been on antidepressants for about 2 years, and I've had no really significant side effects. To my understanding, the suicide risk works something like this:
Deeply depressed Bob is deeply depressed. Can't be arsed to do much of anything, but eventually gets some help and starts taking antidepressants.
The antidepressants start to kick in and stir Bob out of his listlessness after a while, but with a problem. Bob is still very depressed. Only now, he's got more motivation. That is to say, he is much more likely to act on those suicidal thoughts he's been contemplating than he was several weeks prior.
I didn't experience a scenario like this, but antidepressants affect different people very differently. It's always good if you're starting on antidepressants to avoid being alone constantly, and to let somebody know what's going on so they can check up on you. The suicidal tendencies are usually rather short-lived, but they do happen.
EDIT: Just wanted to add that although the OP only mentioned 1 instance of antidepressants leading to suicide, there have been a pretty decent number of reported cases, and many antidepressants now carry suicide warnings on the packaging info.
Post is very much true... When people are truely in severe depression, they don't have the motivation to do anything, even suicide.
Sometimes the antidepressants, in the mood upswing, give the person just enough motivation to actually carry out the suicide. This is something that is well known in the medical community.
There are countless lives that have been improved with antidepressants, but of course, the naysayers are always the loudest.
Seroxat has been found to trigger suicidal thoughts in some people in UK and USA. There was a huge lawsuit filed against Glaxo Smith-Kline and there was big media coverage of this in the UK. This nice medical company withheld test results of the drug showing it didn't work as well.
Now Seroxat can't be prescribed to anyone under 18 in England. Not sure about other countries, but that doesn't mean the effects wouldn't be the same in someone over 18. Anti-depressants are really sketchy and there are so many test results showing they work worse than placebo and have so many tough side-effects. The problem is that the medical companies keep these results hidden. Do the doctors take any interest in the fact that a disturbed sex life could easily worsen a depression if you're in relationship for instance?
Anti-depressants should only be prescribed in a minority of cases and not like some fucking candy for every other "depressed" person, who's depressed as a result of a faulty society. Depression just doesn't happen for most people, it's triggered through environmental influence.
Prescribing medication as a way of supressing symptoms that are there in the first place because of circumstances in your life is ridiculous and in many cases counter-productive imo. I've written an essay on the history of psychiatry and I can't even begin to mention how wrong it is to numb people out with these medications in this large global way. Yeah, if the medication actually worked totally awesome, had few side-effects and not brutal withdrawal, sure everyone would love these meds. But fact is they have hard side effects for many people, they are hard to quit and all they pretty much do is numb your feelings, and take away your sex drive completely. While that can be a effective SHORT TERM strategy in extreme cases, in no way do I advocate this wide-spread prescription of these drugs to so many people for a long time. It's ridiculous
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
sometimes they can't deal. sometimes it's chemical imbalance. read about the damn subject before making comments.
I'm deciding not to engage in this stupid topic. Let people keep feeding pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars rather than just watching someone do stand-up.
The idea that human life is so spectacular that it has to be lived to the nth degree is just something I don't agree with. There will be people who make history and people who die with nothing to their name. Its just nature in the end.
On June 04 2009 07:25 Gokey wrote: There are countless lives that have been improved with antidepressants, but of course, the naysayers are always the loudest.
Yeah, and countless normal people who are under stress and have been prescribed anti-depressants, become fucked up, are turned into patients, and start a "career" in psychiatry for no other reason than being on a drug and labeled "mentally ill".
Let me ask you if you have any experience of anti-depressants whatsoever?
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
sometimes they can't deal. sometimes it's chemical imbalance. read about the damn subject before making comments.
I'm deciding not to engage in this stupid topic. Let people keep feeding pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars rather than just watching someone do stand-up.
The idea that human life is so spectacular that it has to be lived to the nth degree is just something I don't agree with. There will be people who make history and people who die with nothing to their name. Its just nature in the end.
Yeah, and don't forget those stupid fuckers who keep the corrupt hospitals in business with their 'broken limbs' and their 'infections.' Stupid sheeple just need to have a stronger will, man.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
You sir are a fucking retard. If you dont know what you are talking about then shut the fuck up and dont enter these threads.
I was depressed when I was younger and it had absolutely nothing to do with other people having a better life than me. I was depressed because of how shitty this world. There are so many fucked up things going on out there and nothing I can do about it. In order to not be depressed I had to develop a "who gives a fuck attitude" where you dont let things affect you. I agree with the guy who quoted that bit of text that stated depressed people have a more realistic view of the world. I know I did. Now I just try to forget about all the shittiness that is going on around me. You have to not care that the world is corrupt, that thousands of innocent people die everyday for no good reason, that shitty things happen to good people, etc, etc.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
sometimes they can't deal. sometimes it's chemical imbalance. read about the damn subject before making comments.
Yeah and this chemical imbalance is the result of aspects of your life; stress at work, stress at home, stress at school etc. Why would you medicate for this, instead of changing the stuff that makes you feel bad? That's just supressing symptoms and making you a patient for no reason at all.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
sometimes they can't deal. sometimes it's chemical imbalance. read about the damn subject before making comments.
I'm deciding not to engage in this stupid topic. Let people keep feeding pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars rather than just watching someone do stand-up.
The idea that human life is so spectacular that it has to be lived to the nth degree is just something I don't agree with. There will be people who make history and people who die with nothing to their name. Its just nature in the end.
Yeah, and don't forget those stupid fuckers who keep the corrupt hospitals in business with their 'broken limbs' and their 'infections.' Stupid sheeple just need to have a stronger will, man.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
You sir are a fucking retard. If you dont know what you are talking about then shut the fuck up and dont enter these threads.
I was depressed when I was younger and it had absolutely nothing to do with other people having a better life than me. I was depressed because of how shitty this world. There are so many fucked up things going on out there and nothing I can do about it. In order to not be depressed I had to develop a "who gives a fuck attitude" where you dont let things affect you. I agree with the guy who quoted that bit of text that stated depressed people have a more realistic view of the world. I know I did. Now I just try to forget about all the shittiness that is going on around me. You have to not care that the world is corrupt, that thousands of innocent people die everyday for no good reason, that shitty things happen to good people, etc, etc.
Yes, I am a fucking retard because I don't inject 10000cc of drama into the human experience, where in the end we are just another fucking animal.
For the record, I agree with being a go-getter and a DIY attitude towards life. I'm just saying, you are not failing at life if you are a depressed person, you are just living it differently. If you don't want to use the life given to you, you can end it.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
sometimes they can't deal. sometimes it's chemical imbalance. read about the damn subject before making comments.
Yeah and this chemical imbalance is the result of aspects of your life; stress at work, stress at home, stress at school etc. Why would you medicate for this, instead of changing the stuff that makes you feel bad? That's just supressing symptoms and making you a patient for no reason at all.
That's like telling a person with a broken leg that he should get used to hopping. Believe it or not, there's a great deal of medical literature documenting depression as a physiological disorder, one that's fully correctable with effective therapy. I'm not sure what your issue with depression is, but I'd suggest doing some research.
I took some very low dose anti-depressants for a while. I honestly didn't notice much of a difference in mood at all. Lifestyle changes seemed to do the trick for me. Although I was never on any heavy meds I'm gonna have to say not to worry about it, because honestly if too many people were offing themselves after taking certain types of meds, they wouldn't be FDA approved.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
sometimes they can't deal. sometimes it's chemical imbalance. read about the damn subject before making comments.
Yeah and this chemical imbalance is the result of aspects of your life; stress at work, stress at home, stress at school etc. Why would you medicate for this, instead of changing the stuff that makes you feel bad? That's just supressing symptoms and making you a patient for no reason at all.
That's like telling a person with a broken leg that he should get used to hopping. Believe it or not, there's a great deal of medical literature documenting depression as a physiological disorder, one that's fully correctable with effective therapy. I'm not sure what your issue with depression is, but I'd suggest doing some research.
Theres also overwhelming evidence that people who work hard and try and better their life succeed. I'd suggest doing some research.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
sometimes they can't deal. sometimes it's chemical imbalance. read about the damn subject before making comments.
I'm deciding not to engage in this stupid topic. Let people keep feeding pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars rather than just watching someone do stand-up.
The idea that human life is so spectacular that it has to be lived to the nth degree is just something I don't agree with. There will be people who make history and people who die with nothing to their name. Its just nature in the end.
Yeah, and don't forget those stupid fuckers who keep the corrupt hospitals in business with their 'broken limbs' and their 'infections.' Stupid sheeple just need to have a stronger will, man.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
You sir are a fucking retard. If you dont know what you are talking about then shut the fuck up and dont enter these threads.
I was depressed when I was younger and it had absolutely nothing to do with other people having a better life than me. I was depressed because of how shitty this world. There are so many fucked up things going on out there and nothing I can do about it. In order to not be depressed I had to develop a "who gives a fuck attitude" where you dont let things affect you. I agree with the guy who quoted that bit of text that stated depressed people have a more realistic view of the world. I know I did. Now I just try to forget about all the shittiness that is going on around me. You have to not care that the world is corrupt, that thousands of innocent people die everyday for no good reason, that shitty things happen to good people, etc, etc.
Yes, I am a fucking retard because I don't inject 10000cc of drama into the human experience, where in the end we are just another fucking animal.
For the record, I agree with being a go-getter and a DIY attitude towards life. I'm just saying, you are not failing at life if you are a depressed person, you are just living it differently. If you don't want to use the life given to you, you can end it.
So if you're depressed, either suck it up, or off yourself. Awesome. As has been previously noted, you have a glaring lack of understanding of the medical facts at hand here, and you're making yourself look dumb.
Having depression has nothing to do with not being a 'go-getter' or not having a 'DIY attitude.' Depression isn't just a bad mood, or an overly pessimistic view of the world. It's a physiological disorder, and it's no more valid to tell a depressed person to 'get over it' than to tell that to someone with a broken leg.
EDIT: @ keV. That's true, but that does nothing to dismiss the physiological evidence for depression. You're still failing to take into account the difference between a bad mood and an actual physical illness.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
sometimes they can't deal. sometimes it's chemical imbalance. read about the damn subject before making comments.
I'm deciding not to engage in this stupid topic. Let people keep feeding pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars rather than just watching someone do stand-up.
The idea that human life is so spectacular that it has to be lived to the nth degree is just something I don't agree with. There will be people who make history and people who die with nothing to their name. Its just nature in the end.
Yeah, and don't forget those stupid fuckers who keep the corrupt hospitals in business with their 'broken limbs' and their 'infections.' Stupid sheeple just need to have a stronger will, man.
Laughable comparison... Nothing else to say there
On June 04 2009 08:09 Mastermind wrote:
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
You sir are a fucking retard. If you dont know what you are talking about then shut the fuck up and dont enter these threads.
I was depressed when I was younger and it had absolutely nothing to do with other people having a better life than me. I was depressed because of how shitty this world. There are so many fucked up things going on out there and nothing I can do about it. In order to not be depressed I had to develop a "who gives a fuck attitude" where you dont let things affect you. I agree with the guy who quoted that bit of text that stated depressed people have a more realistic view of the world. I know I did. Now I just try to forget about all the shittiness that is going on around me. You have to not care that the world is corrupt, that thousands of innocent people die everyday for no good reason, that shitty things happen to good people, etc, etc.
Yes, I am a fucking retard because I don't inject 10000cc of drama into the human experience, where in the end we are just another fucking animal.
For the record, I agree with being a go-getter and a DIY attitude towards life. I'm just saying, you are not failing at life if you are a depressed person, you are just living it differently. If you don't want to use the life given to you, you can end it.
So if you're depressed, either suck it up, or off yourself. Awesome. As has been previously noted, you have a glaring lack of understanding of the medical facts at hand here, and you're making yourself look dumb.
Having depression has nothing to do with not being a 'go-getter' or not having a 'DIY attitude.' Depression isn't just a bad mood, or an overly pessimistic view of the world. It's a physiological disorder, and it's no more valid to tell a depressed person to 'get over it' than to tell that to someone with a broken leg.
EDIT: @ keV. That's true, but that does nothing to dismiss the physiological evidence for depression. You're still failing to take into account the difference between a bad mood and an actual physical illness.
I never said depression was fake.
The consumerists ideal that pills solve everything is what gives anti-depression meds all the wrong power.
Maybe some people really do have this anti-world attitude about everything. That doesn't mean the majority of people who are prescribed anti-depressants aren't just dealing with life's expected woes.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
sometimes they can't deal. sometimes it's chemical imbalance. read about the damn subject before making comments.
Yeah and this chemical imbalance is the result of aspects of your life; stress at work, stress at home, stress at school etc. Why would you medicate for this, instead of changing the stuff that makes you feel bad? That's just supressing symptoms and making you a patient for no reason at all.
That's like telling a person with a broken leg that he should get used to hopping. Believe it or not, there's a great deal of medical literature documenting depression as a physiological disorder, one that's fully correctable with effective therapy. I'm not sure what your issue with depression is, but I'd suggest doing some research.
No it's not the same thing as you can affect your well-being all by yourself by actually doing something; working out, meeting people, eating good food with vitamins/minerals that your body/brain needs, analyze your depressed thoughts etc etc. Someone can't do this by themselves in order to cure a broken leg in the same way, so your comparison doesn't hold at all.
And yeah, I know all about medical literature on depression and I'm not saying depression isn't real in any way. I'm saying it's a result of envivonmental stress on the organism, and the key to feeling better is structuring up your life, learning what makes you feel depressed, eat healthier, work out etc. Surely people have variances in personality and some people feel more negative feelings more often than other people, BUT that is huge dependant on environmental factors. I have probably read 10 times more than you have on depression and other mental "illnesses" btw.
"Effective therapy" doesn't have to include these stupid drugs. The idea that a person needs treatment for these symptoms is quite weird too, he/she is not an object that should be treated since the depression is NOT an isolated event within the person. It's a result of his/her environment and lifestyle.
The idea of comparing depression to a broken leg is so simplistic and like an argument made for 4-year olds to understand, while the actual etiology behind depression is much more complicated.
For example more and more anti-depressants are prescribed, yet people feel worse and report more depression and anxiety at large. Why would that be? Shouldn't these drugs have a huge positive impact on these conditions? Could it be that they actually don't work that well? Yes.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
sometimes they can't deal. sometimes it's chemical imbalance. read about the damn subject before making comments.
Yeah and this chemical imbalance is the result of aspects of your life; stress at work, stress at home, stress at school etc. Why would you medicate for this, instead of changing the stuff that makes you feel bad? That's just supressing symptoms and making you a patient for no reason at all.
That's like telling a person with a broken leg that he should get used to hopping. Believe it or not, there's a great deal of medical literature documenting depression as a physiological disorder, one that's fully correctable with effective therapy. I'm not sure what your issue with depression is, but I'd suggest doing some research.
No it's not the same thing as you can affect your well-being all by yourself by actually doing something; working out, meeting people, eating good food with vitamins/minerals that your body/brain needs, analyze your depressed thoughts etc etc. Someone can't do this by themselves in order to cure a broken leg in the same way, so your comparison doesn't hold at all.
And yeah, I know all about medical literature on depression and I'm not saying depression isn't real in any way. I'm saying it's a result of envivonmental stress on the organism, and the key to feeling better is structuring up your life, learning what makes you feel depressed, eat healthier, work out etc. Surely people have variances in personality and some people feel more negative feelings more often than other people, BUT that is huge dependant on environmental factors. I have probably read 10 times more than you have on depression and other mental "illnesses" btw.
"Effective therapy" doesn't have to include these stupid drugs. The idea that a person needs treatment for these symptoms is quite weird too, he/she is not an object that should be treated since the depression is NOT an isolated event within the person. It's a result of his/her environment and lifestyle.
The idea of comparing depression to a broken leg is so simplistic and like an argument made for 4-year olds to understand, while the actual etiology behind depression is much more complicated.
For example more and more anti-depressants are prescribed, yet people feel worse and report more depression and anxiety at large. Why would that be? Shouldn't these drugs have a huge positive impact on these conditions? Could it be that they actually don't work that well? Yes.
No one is saying that effective therapy to treat depression HAS to include anti-depressants. You make the argument that someone who is depressed should just go out and change their environment and lifestyle. Sometimes that isn't easy for people, and anti-depressants can be effectively used to help a person while they are making lifestyle and environmental changes. It is true that anti-depressants aren't a cure for depression, as they alter chemical concentrations in the brain (dopamine, seratonin, etc.) to mask the symptoms, but if masking symptoms of depression for a little while so a person can get their life in order helps, why not do it?
On June 04 2009 08:27 qrs wrote: LOL, of course there's a link. BREAKING NEWS!!! Links found between chemotherapy and death by cancer. STOP THE PRESSES!!!!
I was watching this A&E show where they show you live cases of solved mysteries and murders and what not. Some kid killed his grandparents and the defense used Zoloft or w/e anti-depressant as their main argument, saying that is triggered some kinda imbalance in his head.
They brought in scientists and what not to agree with their case. But for every scientist or psychiatrist they brought in, the prosecution team also had one to argue AGAINST.
It's weird =\
Anyway, the kid was guilty because he showed enough sense to try and cover up the murder apparently.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
sometimes they can't deal. sometimes it's chemical imbalance. read about the damn subject before making comments.
Yeah and this chemical imbalance is the result of aspects of your life; stress at work, stress at home, stress at school etc. Why would you medicate for this, instead of changing the stuff that makes you feel bad? That's just supressing symptoms and making you a patient for no reason at all.
That's like telling a person with a broken leg that he should get used to hopping. Believe it or not, there's a great deal of medical literature documenting depression as a physiological disorder, one that's fully correctable with effective therapy. I'm not sure what your issue with depression is, but I'd suggest doing some research.
No it's not the same thing as you can affect your well-being all by yourself by actually doing something; working out, meeting people, eating good food with vitamins/minerals that your body/brain needs, analyze your depressed thoughts etc etc. Someone can't do this by themselves in order to cure a broken leg in the same way, so your comparison doesn't hold at all.
Fair enough, there are loads of things that can help treat depression in addition to medication. I'l grant you that. But that doesn't invalidate the usefulness of antidepressants.
On June 04 2009 08:22 Foucault wrote:And yeah, I know all about medical literature on depression and I'm not saying depression isn't real in any way. I'm saying it's a result of envivonmental stress on the organism, and the key to feeling better is structuring up your life, learning what makes you feel depressed, eat healthier, work out etc. Surely people have variances in personality and some people feel more negative feelings more often than other people, BUT that is huge dependant on environmental factors.
A lot of depression is dependent on environmental stress, as you point out, but there's a pretty large amount that isn't, as well. You can't just say that depression is feeling sad about things that happen in life, and write everything else off as 'variances in personality.'
On June 04 2009 08:22 Foucault wrote:I have probably read 10 times more than you have on depression and other mental "illnesses" btw.
Good to know, sport. I've been in treatment for depression for about 2 years, and I've spent the last 18 months working in a state mental hospital. I spent the 2 years before that studying psychiatric nursing. I've done my homework too.
On June 04 2009 08:22 Foucault wrote:"Effective therapy" doesn't have to include these stupid drugs. The idea that a person needs treatment for these symptoms is quite weird too, he/she is not an object that should be treated since the depression is NOT an isolated event within the person. It's a result of his/her environment and lifestyle.
In many cases, you're right, effective therapy doesn't need to include drugs. I know one case in particular where a patient simply didn't like the way that antidepressants made him feel, so he started a strenuous exercise program. He now runs marathons on the weekends. And I'm not sure what your point is with your objectification argument. Are you saying that depression is simply a personality trait and therefore not something that could be treated?
On June 04 2009 08:22 Foucault wrote:The idea of comparing depression to a broken leg is so simplistic and like an argument made for 4-year olds to understand, while the actual etiology behind depression is much more complicated.
You're absolutely right, it is. But saying that it's just a result of environmental circumstances and that you just need to eat better and exercise is equally stupid and simplistic.
On June 04 2009 08:22 Foucault wrote:For example more and more anti-depressants are prescribed, yet people feel worse and report more depression and anxiety at large. Why would that be? Shouldn't these drugs have a huge positive impact on these conditions? Could it be that they actually don't work that well? Yes.
Correlation does not imply causation. Depression is far more widely diagnosed today than even 5 years ago, as the stigma toward mental illnesses decreases and more people actually seek help for depression instead of simply dealing with it. I'd suggest trying to find a study on the incidence of depression among people taking antidepressants; That'd offer some much more relevant statistics.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
sometimes they can't deal. sometimes it's chemical imbalance. read about the damn subject before making comments.
Yeah and this chemical imbalance is the result of aspects of your life; stress at work, stress at home, stress at school etc. Why would you medicate for this, instead of changing the stuff that makes you feel bad? That's just supressing symptoms and making you a patient for no reason at all.
That's like telling a person with a broken leg that he should get used to hopping. Believe it or not, there's a great deal of medical literature documenting depression as a physiological disorder, one that's fully correctable with effective therapy. I'm not sure what your issue with depression is, but I'd suggest doing some research.
And yeah, I know all about medical literature on depression and I'm not saying depression isn't real in any way. I'm saying it's a result of envivonmental stress on the organism, and the key to feeling better is structuring up your life, learning what makes you feel depressed, eat healthier, work out etc. Surely people have variances in personality and some people feel more negative feelings more often than other people, BUT that is huge dependant on environmental factors. I have probably read 10 times more than you have on depression and other mental "illnesses" btw.
"Effective therapy" doesn't have to include these stupid drugs. The idea that a person needs treatment for these symptoms is quite weird too, he/she is not an object that should be treated since the depression is NOT an isolated event within the person. It's a result of his/her environment and lifestyle.
The idea of comparing depression to a broken leg is so simplistic and like an argument made for 4-year olds to understand, while the actual etiology behind depression is much more complicated.
For example more and more anti-depressants are prescribed, yet people feel worse and report more depression and anxiety at large. Why would that be? Shouldn't these drugs have a huge positive impact on these conditions? Could it be that they actually don't work that well? Yes.
If you have any real-world contact with the field of psychiatry, you will see just how many people anti-depressants have positively influenced. You using a blanket term of "stupid drugs" is both a sign of ignorance and moreover, an insult to the many patients whose lives were changed for the better by these medications.
In addition, depression, like most things, is the result of the combination of both physiological and environmental factors. Medications treat one aspect of depression, and by no means are miracle drugs. Many people expect them to be, and that may explain why when it doesn't seem to immediately improve the symptoms, people may quickly write them off as useless. Add to the fact that people have different sensitivities to anti-depressants, and you can see why negative reports can easily surface.
Drug companies are not the evil behemoths that people make them out to be. They ARE profit driven, but the science behind the drugs are in the vast majority of cases, very sound. The FDA is extremely tight in controlling new drugs for approval, and although there have been scandals in the past, I assure you that all the necessary precautions are implemented nowadays for drug approval. Drug companies, in fact, are super sensitive to all drawbacks of medications, especially with the litigitous culture of today.
Doesn't matter if this happened once, or 10,000 times, it wouldn't be convincing. Just warranting of some attention. That said, there's more to be discussed here than just a news clipping. Anti-depressants have always had very unpredictable effects, helping some people, and making things worse for others. Neural science isn't even close to being well understood. It's more like trial and error right now.
On June 04 2009 07:12 Lucktar wrote: I've been on antidepressants for about 2 years, and I've had no really significant side effects. To my understanding, the suicide risk works something like this:
Deeply depressed Bob is deeply depressed. Can't be arsed to do much of anything, but eventually gets some help and starts taking antidepressants.
The antidepressants start to kick in and stir Bob out of his listlessness after a while, but with a problem. Bob is still very depressed. Only now, he's got more motivation. That is to say, he is much more likely to act on those suicidal thoughts he's been contemplating than he was several weeks prior.
I didn't experience a scenario like this, but antidepressants affect different people very differently. It's always good if you're starting on antidepressants to avoid being alone constantly, and to let somebody know what's going on so they can check up on you. The suicidal tendencies are usually rather short-lived, but they do happen.
EDIT: Just wanted to add that although the OP only mentioned 1 instance of antidepressants leading to suicide, there have been a pretty decent number of reported cases, and many antidepressants now carry suicide warnings on the packaging info.
When people are truely in severe depression, they don't have the motivation to do anything, even suicide.
If I recall correctly: There's a well documented link between antidepressants and suicide.
The warnings on antidepressants drugs tell you to immediately stop taking the drugs and see your doctor if suicidal thoughts don't abate or increase. Also people who don't suffer from depression taking antidepressants can lead to increased suicide.
I am not a doctor. Don't take important medical advice from the internet. Talk to your psychiatrist if you have any serious questions.
On June 04 2009 07:12 Lucktar wrote: I've been on antidepressants for about 2 years, and I've had no really significant side effects. To my understanding, the suicide risk works something like this:
Deeply depressed Bob is deeply depressed. Can't be arsed to do much of anything, but eventually gets some help and starts taking antidepressants.
The antidepressants start to kick in and stir Bob out of his listlessness after a while, but with a problem. Bob is still very depressed. Only now, he's got more motivation. That is to say, he is much more likely to act on those suicidal thoughts he's been contemplating than he was several weeks prior.
I didn't experience a scenario like this, but antidepressants affect different people very differently. It's always good if you're starting on antidepressants to avoid being alone constantly, and to let somebody know what's going on so they can check up on you. The suicidal tendencies are usually rather short-lived, but they do happen.
EDIT: Just wanted to add that although the OP only mentioned 1 instance of antidepressants leading to suicide, there have been a pretty decent number of reported cases, and many antidepressants now carry suicide warnings on the packaging info.
When people are truely in severe depression, they don't have the motivation to do anything, even suicide.
lol
I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, but that is what they teach in medical schools, at least in the United States.
On June 04 2009 07:12 Lucktar wrote: I've been on antidepressants for about 2 years, and I've had no really significant side effects. To my understanding, the suicide risk works something like this:
Deeply depressed Bob is deeply depressed. Can't be arsed to do much of anything, but eventually gets some help and starts taking antidepressants.
The antidepressants start to kick in and stir Bob out of his listlessness after a while, but with a problem. Bob is still very depressed. Only now, he's got more motivation. That is to say, he is much more likely to act on those suicidal thoughts he's been contemplating than he was several weeks prior.
I didn't experience a scenario like this, but antidepressants affect different people very differently. It's always good if you're starting on antidepressants to avoid being alone constantly, and to let somebody know what's going on so they can check up on you. The suicidal tendencies are usually rather short-lived, but they do happen.
EDIT: Just wanted to add that although the OP only mentioned 1 instance of antidepressants leading to suicide, there have been a pretty decent number of reported cases, and many antidepressants now carry suicide warnings on the packaging info.
Was anyone reminded of Stephan Pastis's Pearls Before Swine when reading about deeply depressed Bob?
From what I understand people who are severely depressed can get to a point where its is difficult to even get out of bed. The Antidepressants give you enough motivation to kill yourself. They don't actually create the thoughts of suicide.
I think you guys are confusing sadness with laziness. Like most people here, I am very lazy but very happy
I think "depression" is a mix of both, and I suspect the anti-depressants might cure more laziness than sadness I suppose. Though I will proly never know for sure and don't really want to lol
its good to see that some here on tl aren't deluded by the idea that depression is a "disease", that sufferers are immune from personal responsibility
that "its a chemical imbalance" argument that you hear from depressed celebrities looking to preserve their own sense of worth is far too widely accepted imo
On June 04 2009 14:10 no_comprender wrote: its good to see that some here on tl aren't deluded by the idea that depression is a "disease", that sufferers are immune from personal responsibility
that "its a chemical imbalance" argument that you hear from depressed celebrities looking to preserve their own sense of worth is far too widely accepted imo
There are people with real chemical imbalances in their brain, and people who aren't. I don't think one should jump to conclusions simply because some people are not clinically depressed but blame their problems on factors other than themselves using this method.
In any case, I personally believe that it's possible that there's at least some sort of link between anti-depressant use in some cases and increased suicidal thoughts. I really don't think a "one size fits all" approach is good for treating illnesses like depression, and in some cases I imagine that it may cause problems. Either the drug doesn't treat the symptoms correctly or can even make it worse. The disclaimers on most anti-depressant advertisements indicate that the manufacturers aren't confident that there is no relationship.
It's a definable illness that a lot of people don't realize. It's not simply being sad, or being lonely, or having a comparatively shitty life. It's something different, observable, definable, and yes, treatable.
I've tried 1 SSRI, and an NaSSA in dealing with severe anxiety and depression. Mostly anxiety. People tell you to relax or to chill our or to cheer up and that's not how it works. When only certain pistons are firing in your brain that effect how you feel, then nomatter how many times you tell them to cheer up, they won't.
(Depression and Anxiety disorders go hand in hand so I will talk about about Anxiety aswell here.) The symptoms of both are real physical symptoms. Within 5 minutes of a trigger, I could get the worst diarrhea of my life, lasting for days because my brain perceives something harmless as a threat, and the spiral continues until it really fucks up my eating and sleeping. I have been diagnosed with GAD, Depression (closely tied together,) and Anorexia because of the physical symptoms I receive from the GAD.
The problem is that, though it is real, it's very difficult to diagnose because of how situational a lot of the symptoms can be and because of how a lot western medicine is treated. It's much easier to give someone a prescription for effexor that it is to really fully analyze them to figure out what they're dealing with.
There's no doubt that they are prescribed way too often, to people without disorders or chemical imbalances that require alteration, but instead to people who are simply sad or stressed situationally.
It's not a decision to be sad or to cause drama, it's areas of your brain that perceive threats and emotions that become either under active or hyper active, creating a feeling of dread. Nothing in life appeals to you, not even the things or people you used to love. With anxiety, something VERY tiny can trigger a spiral that can start me down and cause me 30-45 hours of no sleep or food and being very physically ill and dizzy, without being afflicted by any bug or disease. And despite the fact that you KNOW it's anxiety, you know it's in your head, that realization and rationalizing does nothing to sooth a brain that is firing it's stress fight-or-flight response.
Currently, an effective treatment for me is Take-as-needed Clonazepam, a benzodiazapine which slows down the central nervous system. This type of medication, antianxiolitic virtually wipes away these responses that my body gets simply by sedating it and pulling you out of that spiral.
It's not a happy pill, infact it does nothing to raise mood other than how happy you might feel to not be anxious. Sadly, Benzo's are short term relievers for anxiety as they are habit forming, cause withdrawals as you come off and your body grows a tolerance to it.
As for Anti-depressants, there are many different kinds working on many different receptors. Each one has an associated "If you have thoughts of suicide, consult a physician immediately!" warning. I've researched this a bit and asked my psychiatrist who told me that the link is merely there because people who tend to need AD's, are the same types that are so fucked up that they might slight their throat.
AD's do not cause thoughts of suicide. It would be weird to create a drug that could accurately produce a thought such as suicide and persuade you into doing it.
AD's have some side effects as you come on and come off. These include Anxiety, and a bunch of physical ailments that suck. It's not uncommon for people to become more depressed during the initial few weeks of starting an AD because those side effects suck. Also, each AD effects people differently.
The truth is though, AD's DO help many people. The effects are not imaginary, and they are not happy pills. They do not "make you happier," they just slowly take away a cloud that looms inside you telling you that your life is meaningless. It takes away physical manifestations of depression and anxiety that could otherwise make it nearly impossible to lead a normal life.
The link makes me angry. "X and Y school shooters were on Anti-depressants! Holy shit!" Yeah well, when a kid is REALLY fucked up, doctors try things like giving them medication that _MIGHT_ help them, sometimes it doesn't and sometimes they kill people.
On June 04 2009 14:10 no_comprender wrote: its good to see that some here on tl aren't deluded by the idea that depression is a "disease", that sufferers are immune from personal responsibility
that "its a chemical imbalance" argument that you hear from depressed celebrities looking to preserve their own sense of worth is far too widely accepted imo
There are many causes for depression. When you see celebrities on TV whining about how people don't understand how hard their life is, it isn't a chemical imbalance in their brain, but rather the result of the lifestyle they choose. In cases like that, a change in lifestyle would perhaps be more beneficial than an anti-depressant.
However, there are chemical imbalances in the brain that can cause depression regardless of environment/lifestyle, which could classify it as a "disease" or disorder. People with defects in the seratonin transporter gene are much more likely to suffer symptoms of depression than those with a normal gene. In cases like these, or in cases where people need additional help coping with whatever is going on in their lives, the supervised use of anti-depressants, such as SSRIs like Prozac, can help alleviate the symptoms of depression.
On June 04 2009 14:10 no_comprender wrote: its good to see that some here on tl aren't deluded by the idea that depression is a "disease", that sufferers are immune from personal responsibility
that "its a chemical imbalance" argument that you hear from depressed celebrities looking to preserve their own sense of worth is far too widely accepted imo
There are many causes for depression. When you see celebrities on TV whining about how people don't understand how hard their life is, it isn't a chemical imbalance in their brain, but rather the result of the lifestyle they choose. In cases like that, a change in lifestyle would perhaps be more beneficial than an anti-depressant.
However, there are chemical imbalances in the brain that can cause depression regardless of environment/lifestyle, which could classify it as a "disease" or disorder. People with defects in the seratonin transporter gene are much more likely to suffer symptoms of depression than those with a normal gene. In cases like these, or in cases where people need additional help coping with whatever is going on in their lives, the supervised use of anti-depressants, such as SSRIs like Prozac, can help alleviate the symptoms of depression.
On June 04 2009 14:10 no_comprender wrote: its good to see that some here on tl aren't deluded by the idea that depression is a "disease", that sufferers are immune from personal responsibility
that "its a chemical imbalance" argument that you hear from depressed celebrities looking to preserve their own sense of worth is far too widely accepted imo
You're absolutely right. Clearly chemical processes within the brain have absolutely no effect on what a person feels, and even if they did it's totally inconceivable that they run abnormally in certain people. What a ridiculous concept, using medicine to combat physical abnormalities which prevent people from functioning in society. Why, it's downright preposterous.
i'm hardly suggesting that people with real depression don't have a real problem, or that there aren't people who do suffer from mental illness that they can't control. but a persons own actions and thoughts have far more of an effect on your brain chemistry than supposed 'random fluctuations' that aren't random and happen for a reason.
i think many alleviate the blame on themselves for not doing as much as they could have due to that kind of view. a psychiatrist i know who says probably 70% of people coming to his practice claiming to have depression (and often seeking medication) are not even close to having the type of depression that requires treatment, yet due to the media buzz assume they have some chemical imbalance that needs to be medicated and go straight to the doctor before thinking about how they can fix the problem themselves.
the thing people don't realize about mental illness is that the depression/schizophrenia/whatever is YOU, it's not a foreign pathogen that infected you somehow, it is an aspect of who you are no matter how you try and deny it. yeah you might feel happier on the drugs, but thats you on drugs, not the real you somehow freed of an affliction. a person has a right to seek medication if they wish, but REAL recovery and management of mental illness is 99% perspiration, the drugs are only a band-aid
of course some people are so fucked up they don't have the capacity to help themselves, but attitudes like that one i derided enable people to give up easier because they think it's not their fault. and that's why i think those attitudes are damaging
On June 04 2009 16:14 no_comprender wrote: i'm hardly suggesting that people with real depression don't have a real problem, or that there aren't people who do suffer from mental illness that they can't control. but a persons own actions and thoughts have far more of an effect on your brain chemistry than supposed 'random fluctuations' that aren't random and happen for a reason.
i think many alleviate the blame on themselves for not doing as much as they could have due to that kind of view. a psychiatrist i know who says probably 70% of people coming to his practice claiming to have depression (and often seeking medication) are not even close to having the type of depression that requires treatment, yet due to the media buzz assume they have some chemical imbalance that needs to be medicated and go straight to the doctor before thinking about how they can fix the problem themselves.
the thing people don't realize about mental illness is that the depression/schizophrenia/whatever is YOU, it's not a foreign pathogen that infected you somehow, it is an aspect of who you are no matter how you try and deny it. yeah you might feel happier on the drugs, but thats you on drugs, not the real you somehow freed of an affliction. a person has a right to seek medication if they wish, but REAL recovery and management of mental illness is 99% perspiration, the drugs are only a band-aid
of course some people are so fucked up they don't have the capacity to help themselves, but attitudes like that one i derided enable people to give up easier because they think it's not their fault. and that's why i think those attitudes are damaging
Don't treat it like a weakness. It's something most people don't have and limits you a lot. Why not take a medication that was specifically designed to _CORRECT_ the imbalance? I agree about the 70% who show up thinking they have it and don't, but the 30% aren't insane. They simply have a chemical disorder. It can be partially corrected with medication, partially corrected with CBT therapy, and partially corrected with diet and exercise. But it's still a limiting disability that you don't have. That's like saying "You CAN walk without that cain, it just takes perspiration!" to a bunch of old people.
People who are on SSRI wish they didn't have to be on it. It doesn't make them happier than the general populous, and most only report mild/moderate relief of symptoms of depression and anxiety. Yes, it's you on a drug. Tylenol is you on a drug. Having a beer is you on a drug. Walking with a Cain is you on a Cain.
Maybe it is a bandaid. But sometimes bandaids are necessary. Sometimes Cains are necessary. They're both designed to give people the ability to live normally without risking injury or worsening the condition.
Don't diminish the real medical need and relief that modern science has for this incredibly painful and dangerous illness.
it's pretty incredible how people like foucault have the audacity to post on a complex subject armed only with wikipedia blurbs and a few googled papers. really, you think that sitting in front of your computer playing e-psychiatrist qualifies you to dismiss entire categories of drugs? really?
sure, i realize using mental disorders as a blanket excuse for poor life choices is weak. but between you suggesting that problems such as depression manifest solely from external forces or some clown saying that it's the direct result of faults in the constitution of a person is... unbelievable. look - you can come up with your own theories on why these people are 'sad' but i can't imagine anyone who has not experienced it before to understand what it feels like to have a severe depressive episode. it's not something you can just brush off by going 'oh yay today i'm going to meet people! and make a to-do list! hang out with friends!'
if you are arguing that drugs aren't a surefire solution for every single person in the world, or that alternate forms of therapy may have equal or even more merit, well no shit good job being profound. how can people have such uninformed but polarized opinions?
People who take anti-depressants are usually depressed ...Hmm... That doesn't make any sense, it's usually all the manically happy people who commit suicide!
Did you know there is a correlation between drinking coffee and lung cancer? Also between wearing sunscreen and skin cancer! Correlation is not causation.
On June 04 2009 17:17 intrigue wrote: it's pretty incredible how people like foucault have the audacity to post on a complex subject armed only with wikipedia blurbs and a few googled papers. really, you think that sitting in front of your computer playing e-psychiatrist qualifies you to dismiss entire categories of drugs? really?
sure, i realize using mental disorders as a blanket excuse for poor life choices is weak. but between you suggesting that problems such as depression manifest solely from external forces or some clown saying that it's the direct result of faults in the constitution of a person is... unbelievable. look - you can come up with your own theories on why these people are 'sad' but i can't imagine anyone who has not experienced it before to understand what it feels like to have a severe depressive episode. it's not something you can just brush off by going 'oh yay today i'm going to meet people! and make a to-do list! hang out with friends!'
if you are arguing that drugs aren't a surefire solution for every single person in the world, or that alternate forms of therapy may have equal or even more merit, well no shit good job being profound. how can people have such uninformed but polarized opinions?
I have no idea where you get the audacity from to be condenscending towards me, when not having the slightest idea of my backgroud. I've eaten 6 different SSRI:s, gotten 4-5 different diagnosis; depression, anxiety bs. I feel good right now, I'm soon done with my education and I don't eat any meds. Also I've written essays on psychiatry, I've studied psychology for a couple of semesters at uni as well and i've read books on SSRI/SNRI and medical companies.
So please, for the love of god shut up.
Also you don't seem to have any real clue about what depression is, and I assume you yourself or someone close to you has been severly depressed judging by your tone. Depression is a real state of being, but calling it a "disease" and creating patients out of people with the use of SSRI is so stupid. And YES, I believe almost any depression can be fixed with proper nutrition, exercise, having connections with other people, lifestyle etc. Since these are the things that create depression in the first place. Do you think it just happens usually for no reason whatsoever? There's ALWAYS a reason that something happens.
People need to look at our society more for the roots of depression.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote: It's a definable illness that a lot of people don't realize. It's not simply being sad, or being lonely, or having a comparatively shitty life. It's something different, observable, definable, and yes, treatable.
A "definable" illness, lol. Sure it's vaguely describable but 2 different people can both be depressed without even having the same symptoms. Speaking of criterias for "mental illness" is very sketchy. Different psychiatrists give people different diagnosis, there isn't any REAL mental illness comparable to physical illness, since they can't be measured in a scientific way. They are effects of a faulty environment, lifestyle etc. Which definately doesn't have to be the persons fault, so don't get me wrong here.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote: I've tried 1 SSRI, and an NaSSA in dealing with severe anxiety and depression. Mostly anxiety. People tell you to relax or to chill our or to cheer up and that's not how it works. When only certain pistons are firing in your brain that effect how you feel, then nomatter how many times you tell them to cheer up, they won't.
Yeah I know what you mean. It's very hard to change how you feel sometimes, because your brain isn't listening to logic. However, everyone gets this once in a while. Ride it out, why is anxiety so bad? It's a perfectly healthy mechanism that is momentarily out of hand.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote: (Depression and Anxiety disorders go hand in hand so I will talk about about Anxiety aswell here.) The symptoms of both are real physical symptoms. Within 5 minutes of a trigger, I could get the worst diarrhea of my life, lasting for days because my brain perceives something harmless as a threat, and the spiral continues until it really fucks up my eating and sleeping. I have been diagnosed with GAD, Depression (closely tied together,) and Anorexia because of the physical symptoms I receive from the GAD.
GAD...how is that even a real "illness"? It's a term used for anxiety that doctors can't label. So if that anxiety stems from the fact that you truly hate your job for example, why is there even a vague diagnosis for it. Btw, GAD is one of those diagnosis that has been created by medical companies in order to get a new market share for new medications; ie Efexor and later on pretty much any SSRI. If you don't believe me, go read books on the matter because I have, and these books are serious business. Don't be so gullible please, question your diagnosis. In fact I think I could probably help you more than any doctor or medication.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote: The problem is that, though it is real, it's very difficult to diagnose because of how situational a lot of the symptoms can be and because of how a lot western medicine is treated. It's much easier to give someone a prescription for effexor that it is to really fully analyze them to figure out what they're dealing with.
Yeah, that's the main issue here. Psychiatry is so influenced by general medicine that it has adopted it's ways of treating, namely with medication. Should you even treat psychological conditions with medication? Almost in no cases imo. Go to the root of the problems, don't just patch up sociological issues with medications becuase of the fact that people are anxious and depressed in a tougher society where you feel you need to be superman in order to be alright and acceptable.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote: There's no doubt that they are prescribed way too often, to people without disorders or chemical imbalances that require alteration, but instead to people who are simply sad or stressed situationally.
Yeah and not even psychiatrists can tell the difference in a convincing manner. Chemical imbalances are a result of stuff happening outside of you or your thoughts about what is happening. It doesn't just happen without no outside influence.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote: It's not a decision to be sad or to cause drama, it's areas of your brain that perceive threats and emotions that become either under active or hyper active, creating a feeling of dread. Nothing in life appeals to you, not even the things or people you used to love. With anxiety, something VERY tiny can trigger a spiral that can start me down and cause me 30-45 hours of no sleep or food and being very physically ill and dizzy, without being afflicted by any bug or disease. And despite the fact that you KNOW it's anxiety, you know it's in your head, that realization and rationalizing does nothing to sooth a brain that is firing it's stress fight-or-flight response.
Yeah it can be tough, definately. But ask yourself other stuff; Do you work out? Do you eat alot of refined sugars, drink coffee, smoke, do drugs etc etc. Do you get a healthy dose of vitamins? Enough magnesium, B-vitamins, Fish oil? These kind of nutritional supplements and avoiding bad stuff mentioned above, make wonders for many people.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote: Currently, an effective treatment for me is Take-as-needed Clonazepam, a benzodiazapine which slows down the central nervous system. This type of medication, antianxiolitic virtually wipes away these responses that my body gets simply by sedating it and pulling you out of that spiral.
Yeah and will you ever learn to cope with life without a crutch? Anti-anxiolitic medication is some of the most counter-productive medication there is.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote: It's not a happy pill, infact it does nothing to raise mood other than how happy you might feel to not be anxious. Sadly, Benzo's are short term relievers for anxiety as they are habit forming, cause withdrawals as you come off and your body grows a tolerance to it.
Which makes me wonder why the first option for treatment isn't cutting back on stimulants, coffee, sugar, nicotine and adding in workouts and proper nutrition. There's no habit forming, withdrawals or tolerance there. Geez, this medical paradigm of medication for everything is retarded.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote: As for Anti-depressants, there are many different kinds working on many different receptors. Each one has an associated "If you have thoughts of suicide, consult a physician immediately!" warning. I've researched this a bit and asked my psychiatrist who told me that the link is merely there because people who tend to need AD's, are the same types that are so fucked up that they might slight their throat.
AD's do not cause thoughts of suicide. It would be weird to create a drug that could accurately produce a thought such as suicide and persuade you into doing it.
AD's have some side effects as you come on and come off. These include Anxiety, and a bunch of physical ailments that suck. It's not uncommon for people to become more depressed during the initial few weeks of starting an AD because those side effects suck. Also, each AD effects people differently.
Then again your psychiatrist REALLY doesn't know that at all. He tells you what he's been told my medical companies, who want to sell their products. Stop being so gullible, that goes for all of yous. I think SSRI-medication can definately provoke suicidal thoughts in perfectly normal people. There are tons of people whos lives have been fucked up by medication, while there weren't that many problems in the first place. There's nothing accurate about anti-depressants at all. They are based on a vague theory of Serotonine (Yeah, it's a theory) that probably isn't all that good. The idea that one single fucking transmittor substance should control how we feel entirely is truly preposterous and naive, and this has been discussed alot in the medical community the last couple of years.
On June 04 2009 14:24 404.Nintu wrote: The truth is though, AD's DO help many people. The effects are not imaginary, and they are not happy pills. They do not "make you happier," they just slowly take away a cloud that looms inside you telling you that your life is meaningless. It takes away physical manifestations of depression and anxiety that could otherwise make it nearly impossible to lead a normal life.
The link makes me angry. "X and Y school shooters were on Anti-depressants! Holy shit!" Yeah well, when a kid is REALLY fucked up, doctors try things like giving them medication that _MIGHT_ help them, sometimes it doesn't and sometimes they kill people.
Anti-depressants also make many, many people much worse. The effects are usually very much imaginary. I don't know how many studies and test results I've seen where placebo is higher than the effect of the drug. Explain that, please. You sound exactly like an information leaflet for a random SSRI, that is written by a medical company in order to promote their money-making medication.
About school shooters, there is good reason to suspect that anti-depressants have been an inluential factor. Both columbine and the asian guy at the tech school shooting were on anti-depressants and in the Columbine case, the guys had just come off the meds. I think they were also on Ritalin. It's totally naive to think that these meds have nothing to do with behavious since they effect our brain in ways we don't even surely know.
We have on our hands essentially a generation of human guinea pigs.
On June 04 2009 17:17 intrigue wrote: it's pretty incredible how people like foucault have the audacity to post on a complex subject armed only with wikipedia blurbs and a few googled papers. really, you think that sitting in front of your computer playing e-psychiatrist qualifies you to dismiss entire categories of drugs? really?
sure, i realize using mental disorders as a blanket excuse for poor life choices is weak. but between you suggesting that problems such as depression manifest solely from external forces or some clown saying that it's the direct result of faults in the constitution of a person is... unbelievable. look - you can come up with your own theories on why these people are 'sad' but i can't imagine anyone who has not experienced it before to understand what it feels like to have a severe depressive episode. it's not something you can just brush off by going 'oh yay today i'm going to meet people! and make a to-do list! hang out with friends!'
if you are arguing that drugs aren't a surefire solution for every single person in the world, or that alternate forms of therapy may have equal or even more merit, well no shit good job being profound. how can people have such uninformed but polarized opinions?
I have no idea where you get the audacity from to be condenscending towards me, when not having the slightest idea of my backgroud. I've eaten 6 different SSRI:s, gotten 4-5 different diagnosis; depression, anxiety bs. I feel good right now, I'm soon done with my education and I don't eat any meds. Also I've written essays on psychiatry, I've studied psychology for a couple of semesters at uni as well and i've read books on SSRI/SNRI and medical companies.
So please, for the love of god shut up.
Also you don't seem to have any real clue about what depression is, and I assume you yourself or someone close to you has been severly depressed judging by your tone. Depression is a real state of being, but calling it a "disease" and creating patients out of people with the use of SSRI is so stupid. And YES, I believe almost any depression can be fixed with proper nutrition, exercise, having connections with other people, lifestyle etc. Since these are the things that create depression in the first place. Do you think it just happens usually for no reason whatsoever? There's ALWAYS a reason that something happens.
People need to look at our society more for the roots of depression.
You seem to hate depression medications with a passion, since it didn't work for you. There are many people like you, but even more people for whom anti-depressants positively changed their lives.
Depression, as I mentioned earlier in another post, is multi-factorial, and it seems from medical literature that it has both genetic/physiologic and environmental roots. Most doctors are not the pill-pushers you seem to illustrate in your posts... In fact, any reasonable doctor would suggest a regimen of lifestyle changes, group therapy, psychotherapy, and if needed, medications.
It is unfortunate that anti-depressants didn't work for you. But do not be so overbearing in your posts in denouncing these "stupid drugs". They are not miracle drugs, but in a lot of people it has dramatically improved their lives, as I have seen firsthand in the hospital. Also, anyone can "write essays" (were these essays published in a peer-reviewed journal?) and "read books" on this subject; it by no means make you anything close to an expert on this subject.
On June 04 2009 16:14 no_comprender wrote: [...]depression/schizophrenia/whatever is YOU, it's not a foreign pathogen that infected you somehow[...]
Haha yeah lets throw it all in there and mix it all up, its all the same, every mental illness is the same it all can be cured by changing yourself whats next? I mean think about it, down syndrome is also just about who YOU are, its not a foreign pathogen that infected you somehow...-
Are there a lot of people just bitching about their life? yes. Are there many drugs prescriptions that are unnecessary? yes. Doesn't change the fact that drugs help a lot of people who actually do need them
btw I agree with Gokeys post, Foucault is obviously not as stupid and ignorant as people like kev or what his name was, but I think you are anything but objective on this matter.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
Depression is when you feel depressed all the time for no reason at all. Your brain chemistry is off and this is the result. It is dangerous to say something you say here. Know the difference between people with clinical depression and people that just feel depressed for a few days because something didn't work out for them.
Idiot.
As for this topic. People that take anti-depressives are going to commit suicide more often because they are supposed to be depressed.
How are you going to prove the AD caused the suicide? You can't as far as I can tell. Only way to try is to compare depressed people with placebo vs depressed people on the actual medicine.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
Depression is when you feel depressed all the time for no reason at all. Your brain chemistry is off and this is the result. It is dangerous to say something you say here. Know the difference between people with clinical depression and people that just feel depressed for a few days because something didn't work out for them.
I'm going to focus on that paragraph, just to point out a few things. Depression doesn't really occur for no reason at all, it depends on what factors caused the person to go into depression. In some peoples cases there are chemical imbalances causing them to be that way, but often times there's some factor, or factors, that contribute to causing the depression.
Depression gets used way too much, and often times in replacement of just being sad, or feeling down. Feeling down/sad is not depression, but people mistake it as such all the time, which is why there are people that look down on it as a real problem.
On June 04 2009 16:14 no_comprender wrote: i'm hardly suggesting that people with real depression don't have a real problem, or that there aren't people who do suffer from mental illness that they can't control. but a persons own actions and thoughts have far more of an effect on your brain chemistry than supposed 'random fluctuations' that aren't random and happen for a reason.
i think many alleviate the blame on themselves for not doing as much as they could have due to that kind of view. a psychiatrist i know who says probably 70% of people coming to his practice claiming to have depression (and often seeking medication) are not even close to having the type of depression that requires treatment, yet due to the media buzz assume they have some chemical imbalance that needs to be medicated and go straight to the doctor before thinking about how they can fix the problem themselves.
the thing people don't realize about mental illness is that the depression/schizophrenia/whatever is YOU, it's not a foreign pathogen that infected you somehow, it is an aspect of who you are no matter how you try and deny it. yeah you might feel happier on the drugs, but thats you on drugs, not the real you somehow freed of an affliction. a person has a right to seek medication if they wish, but REAL recovery and management of mental illness is 99% perspiration, the drugs are only a band-aid
of course some people are so fucked up they don't have the capacity to help themselves, but attitudes like that one i derided enable people to give up easier because they think it's not their fault. and that's why i think those attitudes are damaging
Don't treat it like a weakness. It's something most people don't have and limits you a lot. Why not take a medication that was specifically designed to _CORRECT_ the imbalance? I agree about the 70% who show up thinking they have it and don't, but the 30% aren't insane. They simply have a chemical disorder. It can be partially corrected with medication, partially corrected with CBT therapy, and partially corrected with diet and exercise. But it's still a limiting disability that you don't have. That's like saying "You CAN walk without that cain, it just takes perspiration!" to a bunch of old people.
People who are on SSRI wish they didn't have to be on it. It doesn't make them happier than the general populous, and most only report mild/moderate relief of symptoms of depression and anxiety. Yes, it's you on a drug. Tylenol is you on a drug. Having a beer is you on a drug. Walking with a Cain is you on a Cain.
Maybe it is a bandaid. But sometimes bandaids are necessary. Sometimes Cains are necessary. They're both designed to give people the ability to live normally without risking injury or worsening the condition.
Don't diminish the real medical need and relief that modern science has for this incredibly painful and dangerous illness.
i'm not so much questioning the relief that medication can provide short term, but stressing that stuff in the realm of CBT is a far better option for long term management, because if you're going to fix a cognitive condition the underlying issues need to be addressed. imo the general public should be more aware of the effectiveness of CBT because imo its great as a preventative measure too. in my opinion almost everyone has the ability to be a functioning person within the normal range without crutches like drugs
but i also don't think that people who go to psychiatrists without medical depression shouldn't, because there are plenty of ways a professional can help them, after all those people aren't insane either, they did feel the need to see a psychiatrist. i think that demonstrates that many people see drugs as a quick fix when it's just not the case.
drugs might be a better option if you're depressed as a result of some environmental factor or whatever because they can restore the ability of the sufferer to self-motivate and address the problem, they allow people get off their feet and committed to CBT (if needed) and changing diet, getting their sleeping and all that stuff down, but unless sufferers commit to activity promoting changes in their own brain they won't experience the best outcomes possible. especially for people who are chronically depressed because of a fucked up childhood or whatever. when people are on the drugs they feel so much better they think the problem is solved, but it's not really. the brain has a knack for restoring the status quo. as you can tell i'm a huge fan of CBT, but CBT is only an aspect of the things a person can do to mediate their own cognition
anyway i have a strong opinion on this due to extensive personal experience, so i hope you don't view my posts as written by a person who has little idea about the nitty-gritty of mental illness. i know how frustrating it is to know someone who refuses to even take the drugs OR undergo CBT, but i also know how pathetic the situation is when a person sees them self as afflicted by a disease and seems incapable of working to restore the a normal, functioning mindset, and simply allows drugs to keep them afloat. neither are viable long term imo
One of my favorite professors and mentors in college suffered from borderline personality disorder ... trust me, being around her so much allowed me to see truly how difficult it is. She was doing everything she could to cope with and treat her imbalance, but even then sometimes it got out of hand. The drugs actually do help her deal with things, including an AD.
I definitely agree with all the people saying correlation does not equal causation. It's still funny that the drug manufacturers still don't know whether there is a correlation or causation lol. Funny in a very dark and ironic way.
On June 04 2009 21:28 Eatme wrote: I wonder how many of the sources here has scientology origin. They really like this topic for unknown reasons.
Please shut up lol. I hate it when people bring up scientology right away when you're criticizing anti-depressants. I don't think anyone here is a scientologists, so enough. Don't bring slandering into this
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
so stupid
anyway, yes there is a link between suicide and anti depressants but it's not a major link, anti depressants help many more people than they hurt. the main issue with anti depressants (relating to suicide) is that the already skewed chemical imbalance that causes severe depression can become even more skewed if the right dosage or medication isn't used.
there's also a period when you first start the medication that you feel like shit (at least for me there was about a week where I felt much worse than most of the time when I was depressed and wasn't on the medication) which I think can be attributed to the rapid change in the chemicals your body is releasing? that may count for some of the suicides related to anti-depressants.
On June 04 2009 14:10 no_comprender wrote: its good to see that some here on tl aren't deluded by the idea that depression is a "disease", that sufferers are immune from personal responsibility
that "its a chemical imbalance" argument that you hear from depressed celebrities looking to preserve their own sense of worth is far too widely accepted imo
you know how insulting you are to people that actually have real depression? maybe you should try spending time with people that actually have. both my parents were diagnosed with manic depression from a young age and I've seen them at the worst points. my mother went through period a couple years where she'd drink to bottles of wine a night, my father sometimes can't even get out of bed because he feels so terrible and both of them aren't lazy, i rarely seem them ever miss work. infact the only time my father has called in sick last year was when he had an adverse reaction to the antibiotics he got for the cold he had this winter* and passed out in the bathroom. it's not their inability to cope it's an honest chemical imbalance/disorder w/e that's outside of their control without the use of anti depressants.
the fact that you're so ignorant and make rude and insulting statements like that honestly disgusts me beyond measure.
There's a link between anti depressants and suicide, but how many lifes would've been lost if they werent on drugs?
I've had a depression myself, and I agree with people saying its "you". All I did for 6 months was sleep..sleeping was good. But then I changed the way I was thinking about things..negative affirmations keep feeding your sub-consious and its a vicious circle, it just gets worse and worse because you make it worse.
In the end I decided to just fuck it. Ignore everything that made me sad and just look at life as a fucking game. In the end very little matters and you wont achieve anything unless you're willing to fuck all the consequences.
Unless you've actually somehow become a psychopath, I don't think that will help. Lots of depressed people see that as the solution, and will try it for a few days... And then realise they still have feelings that can't just be destroyed.
I think it's very personal how each person must deal with depression. Sometimes there's a root cause in the events of your daily life that makes you depressed. In that case I don't think drugs are the answer, because you're basically curing the symptoms and not the problem (which your poor body is urging you to fix). Other times it's a traumatic event from your past that you've never been able to see objectively and actually separate from the present. In that case I also don't think drugs are the answer. And of course, sometimes it's just a genetic anomaly that keeps a person from being happy. These people may need drugs.
Most people understand the first two (of which there are more related), but lots of people seem to misunderstand the last. We don't understand the brain that well, as a scientific community, but we know enough to know that everyone's is different. We know that some people have significant less serotonin to release than others. For those people, no matter how good their lives are, they can only be a little happy at a time. If the brain for whatever reason rarely releases that little bit of happiness, that's what one might consider an illness.
Whatever anecdotal evidence you have like 'I was depressed once. Just manned up and toughed it out and now I'm great' is pretty meaningless because unless you're representative of the human race, it doesn't reflect what other people need to do. We're all glad that worked for you, and thanks for sharing your story. Just don't asset that it's the be all and end all solution.
I just want to make clear that it's about so much more than a single transmittor substance called Serotonin. The neurobiology of the brain is 100000 times more complex than that, and the idea that you should just affect one neurotransmitter and that would allieviate depression, anxiety, PMS, anorexia etc is:
Also, you can boost your serotonin levels through "natural" means rather than anti-depressants, a fact many people don't seem to understand.
Now, exercise and proper nutrition and sleep probably has the same efficacy or better than anti-depressants (hell even placebo has better efficacy in many tests). Why would you want to get the drug then? Someone who has been on anti-depressants knows all about the sexual dysfunction for instance. Why the hell isn't this side-effect more widely debated? It literarly sucks ASS not being able to fuck or jerk off or whatever you do. It's so bad it's not even worth it for a high percentage of people eating anti-depressants. And btw, I've seen studies that say that up to 50% of all people (I don't like the word "patients" in this context) who are prescribed anti-depressants, quit taking them because of side-effects, the medicine not working etc.
The medical community are having a hard time seeing alternatives to medicines as treatment. That is their biggest achilles heel by far.
On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote: Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
This is not really true, you dont think its possible that a person accepts that he is living the 'high life' even when hes unhappy and the knowledge that theres nothing much better to aim for is depressing?
Serious depression (that is, medication is applied) typically means two things:
* you are depressed * you are inactive/passive.
Antidepressants fix both things:
* they reduce the depression ("cheer you up") * they make you more active ("activation")
Now the critical point is: if the activation comes BEFORE the cheering up (due to a certain drug or your biology or whatever), you are in a state of being deeply depressed and highly active. This is what often leads to suicide when someone is on antidepressants. You are deeply depressed, but very active - enough for possible self damage (if you're the type).
So a "good" (aka working for you) antidepressant cheers you up BEFORE it makes you more active... then nothing bad should happen.
On June 05 2009 01:52 Foucault wrote: Also, you can boost your serotonin levels through "natural" means rather than anti-depressants, a fact many people don't seem to understand.
Now, exercise and proper nutrition and sleep probably has the same efficacy or better than anti-depressants (hell even placebo has better efficacy in many tests). Why would you want to get the drug then? Someone who has been on anti-depressants knows all about the sexual dysfunction for instance. Why the hell isn't this side-effect more widely debated? It literarly sucks ASS not being able to fuck or jerk off or whatever you do. It's so bad it's not even worth it for a high percentage of people eating anti-depressants. And btw, I've seen studies that say that up to 50% of all people (I don't like the word "patients" in this context) who are prescribed anti-depressants, quit taking them because of side-effects, the medicine not working etc.
The medical community are having a hard time seeing alternatives to medicines as treatment. That is their biggest achilles heel by far.
This is exactly the reason why most doctors don't prescribe anti-depressants right off the bat to most people. Anti-depressants are supposed to be prescribed if lifestyle changes such as more sleep/less stress are not helpful in alleviating symptoms.
If these changes don't work, a doctor can recommend anti-depressants. You make it seem like doctors are forcing anti-depressants on people and now these people have to deal with the side effects of them. Doctors aren't forcing people to take medication. All they can do is suggest it to a patient and talk about it with them. It is up to the individual patient to determine if it is worth all the possible side effects (such as sexual dysfunction).
I am also curious as to what other "natural" or "alternative" treatments you are referring to that haven't already been discussed in this thread. People have all mentioned how lifestyle/environmental changes can alter neurotransmitter levels and effect mood. Anti-depressants are supposed to be recommended in cases where these "natural" means of alleviating symptoms don't work.
pioneer the i'm not being insulting at all. i am simply stating the facts which i have come to know from personal experience. my family is chock full of people with mental illness, my mother has been diagnosed with bipolar and schizophrenia as well as having episodes of severe depression. she is currently institutionalized and will be for the rest of her life. my father has also been depressed at various times. not 2 months ago my 21yo cousin who i've been close with all my life was hospitalized for a psychotic episode and has been chronically depressed for 2 years. one of my best friends has 'borderline personality disorder' and has suffered severe depression. and thats not all! i myself was diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar when was 16, succeeding at addressing my own issues taught me more about the human mind than reading a thousand books or knowing a million mental cases. i'll add too that i'm now a normally functioning person. in every case i know the root or at least have a general idea of why they (and myself) developed those mental characteristics, its not hard to see if you know how to look. there is a reason for everything and nothing is black and white. they weren't people who had everything going for them and were suddenly struck down out of the blue by a random brain chemistry change. there is a reason for everything that happens inside your own brain
with regard to your parents situation, its natural to want to think that they did all a person can do but lost out because "depression is incurable and unavoidable". and maybe they did try but didn't do the right things because they didn't know what to do. but i think the general sentiment is malignant. IMO classifying an aspect of your mind as a foreign agent is a copout. i believe everybody has a baseline mental state that is functional and it is never impossible to restore that order
i essentially agree with everything forcault has said and feel a strong connection with his sentiments. his point about the fact that our society creates an environment where certain people will have a harder time avoiding mental illness is extremely relevant to this whole issue
On June 05 2009 01:46 Foucault wrote: I just want to make clear that it's about so much more than a single transmittor substance called Serotonin. The neurobiology of the brain is 100000 times more complex than that, and the idea that you should just affect one neurotransmitter and that would allieviate depression, anxiety, PMS, anorexia etc is:
P R E P O S T E R O U S
You've set up the typical straw man argument. No one in this thread has said that serotonin is the ONLY thing causing depression. Depression seems to be the result of a complex interplay between genetic/physiologic and environmental factors. Medications are only one part of the current standard of care, which is why doctors recommend it with other forms of treatment, such as lifestyle changes/programs, psychotherapy, etc. In addition, numerous anti-depressant drugs have direct or indirect effects on other neurotransmitters, such as norepinephrine and dopamine.
On June 05 2009 01:52 Foucault wrote: Now, exercise and proper nutrition and sleep probably has the same efficacy or better than anti-depressants (hell even placebo has better efficacy in many tests). Why would you want to get the drug then?
Your solution to depression boils down to "walk it off". Everyone is different; some people are able to take that first, hardest step by themselves; others need a combination of aforementioned therapies, only one of which is medications.
You may point to individual clinical trials that show ambivalent data on certain medications, but taken as a whole in meta-analyses, anti-depressants have strong evidence to back their efficacy. I find it amusing that you make such an adamant, blanket statement ("Why would you want to get the drug then?") after using the word "probably" in the sentence immediately prior.
On June 05 2009 01:52 Foucault wrote: Someone who has been on anti-depressants knows all about the sexual dysfunction for instance. Why the hell isn't this side-effect more widely debated? It literarly sucks ASS not being able to fuck or jerk off or whatever you do. It's so bad it's not even worth it for a high percentage of people eating anti-depressants.
Sexual dysfunction is a possible side effect that is discussed by every competent doctor with the patient before starting on anti-depressants. This side effect is common knowledge and is one of the things that are mandatory to be documented in patient charts; I am not sure how you want it to be "more widely debated". For most people who are severely depressed, they can't function even at a basic level in their daily lives, much less thinking of their sexuality.
On June 05 2009 01:52 Foucault wrote: The medical community are having a hard time seeing alternatives to medicines as treatment. That is their biggest achilles heel by far.
As stated by numerous people in this thread, medications are only one of the many treatment modalities recommended by doctors for people with depression. You have a very one-dimensional and inaccurate view of the medical community's approach to depression.
On June 05 2009 03:03 no_comprender wrote: pioneer the i'm not being insulting at all. i am simply stating the facts which i have come to know from personal experience. my family is chock full of people with mental illness, my mother has been diagnosed with bipolar and schizophrenia as well as having episodes of severe depression. she is currently institutionalized and will be for the rest of her life. my father has also been depressed at various times. not 2 months ago my 21yo cousin who i've been close with all my life was hospitalized for a psychotic episode and has been chronically depressed for 2 years. one of my best friends has 'borderline personality disorder' and has suffered severe depression. and thats not all! i myself was diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar when was 16, succeeding at addressing my own issues taught me more about the human mind than reading a thousand books or knowing a million mental cases. i'll add too that i'm now a normally functioning person. in every case i know the root or at least have a general idea of why they (and myself) developed those mental characteristics, its not hard to see if you know how to look. there is a reason for everything and nothing is black and white. they weren't people who had everything going for them and were suddenly struck down out of the blue by a random brain chemistry change. there is a reason for everything that happens inside your own brain
with regard to your parents situation, its natural to want to think that they did all a person can do but lost out because "depression is incurable and unavoidable". and maybe they did try but didn't do the right things because they didn't know what to do. but i think the general sentiment is malignant. IMO classifying an aspect of your mind as a foreign agent is a copout. i believe everybody has a baseline mental state that is functional and it is never impossible to restore that order
i essentially agree with everything forcault has said and feel a strong connection with his sentiments. his point about the fact that our society creates an environment where certain people will have a harder time avoiding mental illness is extremely relevant to this whole issue
Both my parents eat right and exercise, the general outlines of dealing with depression without medication. And manic depression has been shown to deal directly with chemical imbalances, you'd think someone the talks about knowing so much about the human mind would realize that.
Manic depression =/= not just feeling a little down.
I also have just as much experience with it, my grandmother has severe bipolar disorder and takes medication to deal with it and it works. I know how she acted when she was eating, etc. and doing therapy without medication and I know how she acts now with medication, the difference is massive.
I also have an uncle that blew his brains out when he was 16. It's not me just looking at the best side of things or ignoring reality, I've seen what works and what doesn't and medication is a viable and in many cases the best alternative. You also don't deal with schizophrenia by just 'working through it' it require medication.
On June 05 2009 03:03 no_comprender wrote: succeeding at addressing my own issues taught me more about the human mind than reading a thousand books or knowing a million mental cases.
No. No they did not. Believing your own limited, subjective experiences give you any sort of reasonable understanding of any topic as complex as this is one of the worst kinds of ignorance.
On June 05 2009 03:03 no_comprender wrote: succeeding at addressing my own issues taught me more about the human mind than reading a thousand books or knowing a million mental cases.
No. No they did not. Believing your own limited, subjective experiences give you any sort of reasonable understanding of any topic as complex as this is one of the worst kinds of ignorance.
Agreed 100%. The anecdotal fallacy is one of the hardest to uproot in people, especially when it is deepseated in narcissism.
I agree with Foucault wholeheartedly even though I'm not too fond to this topic.
But I did take conspiracy 101 and there is a motivation for pharmaceuticals and research institutes to put you on drugs since they make their earnings off of it.
I suggest we look at the history of depression to look beyond what modern medicine can provide us as far as scientific and irrefutable proof. Well from my 10 minutes of googling I couldn't find any wikipedia excerpts to which brag newfound knowledges about, but I sustain the idea below from my intuition so feel free to call me a retard:
Depression wasn't ever treated with drugs in history. It just wasn't considered a disease at all until all the new psychologists from the XX century started saying we're sick. It was said those depressed were just feeling down, which is normal, lots of reasons to be down about in the post-industrial society. But now they have "Major Depressive Disorder". A fraction of these people commit suicide (dare I guess its about 5%), and perhaps just as many do have biological disfunctions which are inevitable regardless of the person's environment, and do need medical support. But for the vast majority, 95%, don't, never did. They're just feeling down, d00d.
My point is, depression shouldn't be diagnosed so easily to 95% of the people, THEY're just milking our moneyz. Profiting from a sick society, will you.
Also I blame the schools and eugenicists but I don't want to go there atm.
Oh yeah, about schizophrenia, man that is such a bullshit diagnose, even worse than depression. I'm a 100% positive that if I went to a psychologist or psychiatrist they'd diagnose me with Paranoid Schizophrenia just because my world view doesn't match theirs. There's so many new diagnoses being invented these days to put us on meds... and they never address the environmental causes!
To the OP: it's hard because you'd have to find a link to people who use antidepressants and don't have some sort of depression. The fact that they're depressed is a gigantic confounding variable.
On June 05 2009 12:21 Yurebis wrote: Oh yeah, about schizophrenia, man that is such a bullshit diagnose, even worse than depression. I'm a 100% positive that if I went to a psychologist or psychiatrist they'd diagnose me with Paranoid Schizophrenia just because my world view doesn't match theirs. There's so many new diagnoses being invented these days to put us on meds... and they never address the environmental causes!
Man, I'm just reading this post, and then I thought of replacing the word rollin' with "trollin' in this video:
On June 05 2009 12:15 Yurebis wrote: A fraction of these people commit suicide (dare I guess its about 5%), and perhaps just as many do have biological disfunctions which are inevitable regardless of the person's environment, and do need medical support. But for the vast majority, 95%, don't, never did. They're just feeling down, d00d.
My point is, depression shouldn't be diagnosed so easily to 95% of the people, THEY're just milking our moneyz. Profiting from a sick society, will you.
You're suggesting that it's not depression unless they commit suicide?...
There are certain criteria, both temporal and qualitative, that are used to make the diagnosis of major depressive disorder. It's not so arbitrary as you seem to imply. And if you think "they're just feeling down", well, I suggest you go to a psychiatry clinic and see the real patients for yourself.
On June 05 2009 12:15 Yurebis wrote: I sustain the idea below from my intuition so feel free to call me a retard:
On June 05 2009 12:21 Yurebis wrote: Oh yeah, about schizophrenia, man that is such a bullshit diagnose, even worse than depression. I'm a 100% positive that if I went to a psychologist or psychiatrist they'd diagnose me with Paranoid Schizophrenia just because my world view doesn't match theirs. There's so many new diagnoses being invented these days to put us on meds... and they never address the environmental causes!
On June 05 2009 12:15 Yurebis wrote: I agree with Foucault wholeheartedly even though I'm not too fond to this topic.
But I did take conspiracy 101 and there is a motivation for pharmaceuticals and research institutes to put you on drugs since they make their earnings off of it.
I suggest we look at the history of depression to look beyond what modern medicine can provide us as far as scientific and irrefutable proof. Well from my 10 minutes of googling I couldn't find any wikipedia excerpts to which brag newfound knowledges about, but I sustain the idea below from my intuition so feel free to call me a retard:
Depression wasn't ever treated with drugs in history. It just wasn't considered a disease at all until all the new psychologists from the XX century started saying we're sick. It was said those depressed were just feeling down, which is normal, lots of reasons to be down about in the post-industrial society. But now they have "Major Depressive Disorder". A fraction of these people commit suicide (dare I guess its about 5%), and perhaps just as many do have biological disfunctions which are inevitable regardless of the person's environment, and do need medical support. But for the vast majority, 95%, don't, never did. They're just feeling down, d00d.
My point is, depression shouldn't be diagnosed so easily to 95% of the people, THEY're just milking our moneyz. Profiting from a sick society, will you.
Also I blame the schools and eugenicists but I don't want to go there atm.
So part of your argument is that depression wasn't treated with drugs in past history, so this must clearly be a phenomenon invented by psychologists looking to make a buck?
It wasn't until very recently that we have been able to really see how brain signals such as neurotransmitters effect things such as mood (even now, our knowledge is very basic). You are correct when you say that major depressive disorder should not be given as a diagnosis so quickly, but this does not mean that the disease itself isn't real, or that the drugs the pharmaceutical companies make are just a scam.
It's not a total scam, I gave it a threshold of 5%. What I'm saying is, it's nowhere as common as they want to portrait it is. Antidepressants and other psychotic drugs are part of a big industry now, and doctors aren't looking at the causes but only at the symptoms, and drugging you whenever possible.
If you don't believe it I don't blame you, I wouldn't believe it either a few years ago; I got no proof or experts backing me up, so whats the point. Just throwing it out there so perhaps it makes sense for you or someone else, some other time.
Also I'm no troll. That's what I believe in, I just don't feel like writing and elaborating too much right now.
On June 05 2009 12:15 Yurebis wrote: I agree with Foucault wholeheartedly even though I'm not too fond to this topic.
But I did take conspiracy 101 and there is a motivation for pharmaceuticals and research institutes to put you on drugs since they make their earnings off of it.
I suggest we look at the history of depression to look beyond what modern medicine can provide us as far as scientific and irrefutable proof. Well from my 10 minutes of googling I couldn't find any wikipedia excerpts to which brag newfound knowledges about, but I sustain the idea below from my intuition so feel free to call me a retard:
Depression wasn't ever treated with drugs in history. It just wasn't considered a disease at all until all the new psychologists from the XX century started saying we're sick. It was said those depressed were just feeling down, which is normal, lots of reasons to be down about in the post-industrial society. But now they have "Major Depressive Disorder". A fraction of these people commit suicide (dare I guess its about 5%), and perhaps just as many do have biological disfunctions which are inevitable regardless of the person's environment, and do need medical support. But for the vast majority, 95%, don't, never did. They're just feeling down, d00d.
My point is, depression shouldn't be diagnosed so easily to 95% of the people, THEY're just milking our moneyz. Profiting from a sick society, will you.
Also I blame the schools and eugenicists but I don't want to go there atm.
Jeez you even say yourself you dont know what you are talking about so why not just stfu.
And lol " I gave it a threshhold of 5%" You said 5% commit suicide.. so you really do think only people who commt suicide are depressed, I see, thank you for the enlightenment I'm still not convinced youre not a troll
On June 05 2009 12:21 Yurebis wrote: Oh yeah, about schizophrenia, man that is such a bullshit diagnose, even worse than depression. I'm a 100% positive that if I went to a psychologist or psychiatrist they'd diagnose me with Paranoid Schizophrenia just because my world view doesn't match theirs. There's so many new diagnoses being invented these days to put us on meds... and they never address the environmental causes!
Man, I'm just reading this post, and then I thought of replacing the word rollin' with "trollin' in this video: IE: No way anyone is believing that.
No he's right. Schizophrenia is a sketchy diagnose, which has been debated immensely. Recently 5 different english psychiatrists were diagnosing a woman suffering from delusion and while her original diagnosis was schizophrenia, she got 1 paranoid schizophrenia diagnose, 1 schizotypal diagnose, 2 manic-depressive diagnoses and I forgot what the last one was.
Basically the diagnostic tools of psychiatry are very vague, and schizophrenia is a vague diagnose.
And yeah, 90% emphasis should be put on environmental causes, since the environment shapes our genetic dispositions.
On June 05 2009 12:21 Yurebis wrote: Oh yeah, about schizophrenia, man that is such a bullshit diagnose, even worse than depression. I'm a 100% positive that if I went to a psychologist or psychiatrist they'd diagnose me with Paranoid Schizophrenia just because my world view doesn't match theirs. There's so many new diagnoses being invented these days to put us on meds... and they never address the environmental causes!
Holy fuck, this thread just reached a new low.
Please read up on the history of psychiatry. Not long ago psychiatry was veeery fucked up, and back then people were like "the doctors know what they're doing, those treatments work for the patients". The treatments were putting people in cold baths for days, depriving them of sleep, scaring them etc etc. Do you really think we have come such a long way from 5-6 decades back, that psychiatrists knows exactly what they are doing, when they never really have had a clue at any point in history.
I think we will look back in 50 years and shake our heads at this mass-prescription of mind altering substances; anti-depressants, ritalin, concerta etc etc. Hopefully mankind will then have realized that society/environment is to blame for psychological issues and that these can be corrected by fixing environmental factors.
On June 05 2009 03:33 Gokey wrote: You've set up the typical straw man argument. No one in this thread has said that serotonin is the ONLY thing causing depression. Depression seems to be the result of a complex interplay between genetic/physiologic and environmental factors. Medications are only one part of the current standard of care, which is why doctors recommend it with other forms of treatment, such as lifestyle changes/programs, psychotherapy, etc. In addition, numerous anti-depressant drugs have direct or indirect effects on other neurotransmitters, such as norepinephrine and dopamine.
Yeah, however patients are often made to both take medicine and get therapy. I've myself had to eat medicine in order to go in therapy, which is ridiculous. Surely they recommend other stuff as well, but not often do they take away medication from the treatment "plan". I know they have effects on these neurotransmitters as well, but I think the whole idea of SSRI is flawed. You can't heal something using medicines that has it's origins outside of the depressed person. It's just masking the symptoms and creating an illusion of well-being. It's a well known problem that peoples problems usually come back once they quite their medication.
On June 05 2009 03:33 Gokey wrote: Your solution to depression boils down to "walk it off". Everyone is different; some people are able to take that first, hardest step by themselves; others need a combination of aforementioned therapies, only one of which is medications.
You may point to individual clinical trials that show ambivalent data on certain medications, but taken as a whole in meta-analyses, anti-depressants have strong evidence to back their efficacy. I find it amusing that you make such an adamant, blanket statement ("Why would you want to get the drug then?") after using the word "probably" in the sentence immediately prior.
Yeah, I know it's easy to speak for everyone and I do make that mistake from time to time. Generalization, we all do it. Anyways, like I said I think the entire medication concept for treating depression/anxiety is going the wrong way about it. What I said above. No anti-depressants do NOT have strong evidence to their efficacy lol. The tests that show that they work have an efficacy of like 10% more than placebo. How is helping 60% of the patients good in any way? And what is the medication actually "helping" with? Let's say someones depressed feelings go away. Good. But what if most of this persons feelings went away, both sad and happy, is that good? No, it's mental lobotomy. Many people report becoming dulled out and numb from SSRI:s.
Taken as a whole, meta-analyses of SSRI-trials (every trial, not only the ones that medical companies choose to show) show that placebo and exercise/lifestyle changes are as good as SSRI for treating mild/moderate depression. SSRI were somewhat better (a few percentages) when it came down to severe depression.
Yeah, the word "probably" was not really intended. I remember reading studies on it but didn't remember exactly what studies. Strike "probably".
On June 05 2009 03:33 Gokey wrote: Sexual dysfunction is a possible side effect that is discussed by every competent doctor with the patient before starting on anti-depressants. This side effect is common knowledge and is one of the things that are mandatory to be documented in patient charts; I am not sure how you want it to be "more widely debated". For most people who are severely depressed, they can't function even at a basic level in their daily lives, much less thinking of their sexuality.
Possible side effect? I don't know anyone who has been on SSRI and hasn't gotten sexual dysfunction. Actually the dysfunction is more like impotence if you're on a normal dose of an anti-depressant. Shit just doesn't work. Why would a medicine with such a serious side-effect even be used for treatment? It boggles my mind. Not mentioning SSRI provoking panic attacks in people who never had them before, they make you sweat, gain weight, tremblings, etc etc.
Yeah but like 90% of the people (stop saying patients please, it's stigmatizing and unnecessary) being prescribed don't have severe depression, but mild/moderate. There has been an change in indication for diagnoses, which means that more and more symptoms are being associated with depression. Even feeling mildly down and having headaches can give you a mild depression diagnoses nowadays, that some doctors will prescribe you anti-depressants for as treatment. Wtf indeed.
On June 05 2009 03:33 Gokey wrote: As stated by numerous people in this thread, medications are only one of the many treatment modalities recommended by doctors for people with depression. You have a very one-dimensional and inaccurate view of the medical community's approach to depression.
I don't think medication should be a treatment option for depression unless it's so severe that the person is suicidal, can't get out of bed, isn't eating anything, doesn't talk etc. Then medication can be used IF the person is supervised.
My view on the medical communitys approach for depression treatment is that medication is always there. Surely they can tell you it's good to go jogging and eat healthy but they'll still tell you to take that pill daily.
One more thing that is often grossly overlooked in depression treatment is vitamins/minerals. Go look on PubMed for research if you're interested. B-vitamins, especially B6/B12 are sometimes used for treating depression. Same with magnesium and fish oil, which seem to work not only for depression but also anxiety, hyperactivity (fishoil has recently been approved as treatment against ADD/ADHD) and other neurological issues.
Many vitamins/minerals are "natures own" calming, soothing, feeling-happy remedies.Remember that they control a vast number of bodily/brain functions.
Unlike the case with children, in whom antidepressants have generally failed to show they are superior to sugar pills in short-term trials, the drugs have a track record of working in adults. A recent federal study showed that while the drugs do leave much to be desired, treatment provided in the best care settings helped two-thirds of depressed patients recover.
These concerns recently led the FDA to warn that children should not be prescribed Paxil, which is commonly used to treat adults with ADHD. And last year, the Committee on Safety of Medicines in Great Britain made the decision that all SSRI medications, besides Prozac, should not be prescribed for new children diagnosed with depression and that they are contraindicated for children under age 18
Blech. You have adolescents where their brains are running with an undeveloped prefrontal cortex - running on impulse - and then you throw some vaguely understood medication into the mix and do so with a cavalier "what could go wrong" attitude. Antidepressants are great but I'm positive that everyone agrees with the idea that doctors should be a little more cautious when handing them out to kids. With a brain acting irrationally by default, you'd think it's a pretty dangerous time to turn to medicating the problem as the de facto response. There is too much we still don't understand. Antidepressants represent a 50+ billion dollar industry so I'm sure they won't miss the lost profits.
Let's not forget though that it's not just about suicide. There are more concerns with anti-depressants as well; side-effects, hard withdrawal symptoms. And the essential question: Do they really help that much? I say no, they don't. The fact that a person eats a pill might make them think that they are being helped, and that explains why placebo almost has the same efficacy as SSRI medications.
Depression isn't just an isolated event happening inside a person. Environmental factors lead up to it in combination with possible genetic predispositions towards depression. I mean, we really don't know how anti-depressants affect the brain long-term either or what the medications really do.
I don't like this guinea pig approach to the whole shebang.
On June 05 2009 12:21 Yurebis wrote: Oh yeah, about schizophrenia, man that is such a bullshit diagnose, even worse than depression. I'm a 100% positive that if I went to a psychologist or psychiatrist they'd diagnose me with Paranoid Schizophrenia just because my world view doesn't match theirs. There's so many new diagnoses being invented these days to put us on meds... and they never address the environmental causes!
Holy fuck, this thread just reached a new low.
Do you really think we have come such a long way from 5-6 decades back, that psychiatrists knows exactly what they are doing, when they never really have had a clue at any point in history.
Yes, we have indeed come a long way. There were indeed a lot of mistakes made in the field of psychiatry a few decades ago, and it has received its share of backlash, of which I am sure have been illustrated in the books you have read.
The field of research and medicine has been growing exponentially with the development of countless new techniques and technologies in recent times. The amount of new literature being published is astounding. And never before has federal regulations and peer-review scrutinization been stronger. There is also a very strong and powerful shift towards evidence-based medicine in all medical education and literature.
So, yes... Yes we do have reason to trust the research and data. And the overall data does show efficacy of the medications in depressed persons. Developing these different modalities of treatment will ultimately be much more powerful than your singular dogma - "well, just exercise more and make more friends".
On June 05 2009 12:21 Yurebis wrote: Oh yeah, about schizophrenia, man that is such a bullshit diagnose, even worse than depression. I'm a 100% positive that if I went to a psychologist or psychiatrist they'd diagnose me with Paranoid Schizophrenia just because my world view doesn't match theirs. There's so many new diagnoses being invented these days to put us on meds... and they never address the environmental causes!
Holy fuck, this thread just reached a new low.
Do you really think we have come such a long way from 5-6 decades back, that psychiatrists knows exactly what they are doing, when they never really have had a clue at any point in history.
Yes, we have indeed come a long way. There were indeed a lot of mistakes made in the field of psychiatry a few decades ago, and it has received its share of backlash, of which I am sure have been illustrated in the books you have read.
The field of research and medicine has been growing exponentially with the development of countless new techniques and technologies in recent times. The amount of new literature being published is astounding. And never before has federal regulations and peer-review scrutinization been stronger. There is also a very strong and powerful shift towards evidence-based medicine in all medical education and literature.
So, yes... Yes we do have reason to trust the research and data. And the overall data does show efficacy of the medications in depressed persons. Developing these different modalities of treatment will ultimately be much more powerful than your singular dogma - "well, just exercise more and make more friends".
On June 06 2009 07:20 Gokey wrote: Yes, we have indeed come a long way. There were indeed a lot of mistakes made in the field of psychiatry a few decades ago, and it has received its share of backlash, of which I am sure have been illustrated in the books you have read.
The field of research and medicine has been growing exponentially with the development of countless new techniques and technologies in recent times. The amount of new literature being published is astounding. And never before has federal regulations and peer-review scrutinization been stronger. There is also a very strong and powerful shift towards evidence-based medicine in all medical education and literature.
So, yes... Yes we do have reason to trust the research and data. And the overall data does show efficacy of the medications in depressed persons. Developing these different modalities of treatment will ultimately be much more powerful than your singular dogma - "well, just exercise more and make more friends".
I'll second this.
It's not as though doctors (well, good doctors, anyway) aren't aware of the limitations of modern psychiatry. The problem arises when people miss the big picture - that the mind is a system that we can understand to a certain degree and whose operations we can influence to a certain degree with external pharmacological treatments - and instead extrapolate from the admittedly very valid fact that we still don't understand what we're doing very well that it's all got to be bullshit.
So yes, we don't really know exactly what it means that in a certain region of the brain are found certain cells that respond primarily to a certain neurotransmitter subtype. Sure, we can say that, OK, if X neurotransmitter binds to Y G-protein coupled receptor on Z type of neuron, there's a complex A that is formed at the GPCR that activates enzyme B which mediates the concentration of factor C within the neuron, which somehow seems to have to do with subjective feeling D. It doesn't tell us anything concrete about how subjective reality is formed. Most psychiatric drugs don't have a readily identifiable mode of action. So what if an SSRI boosts serotonergic activity, or if an antipsychotic diminishes the activity of dopamine? What we're interested in is that suddenly, some people who were suicidal weren't anymore, a few remained the same, and maybe a very small minority started hearing voices and could be considered worse. People have subtle differences in neurochemistry, and much of psychiatry is finding the diagnosis and treatment that works. Treatment does not necessarily have to be pharmacological, as talking to a therapist, eating different foods, or simply going outside and taking a walk all affect brain chemistry. However, for a lot of diagnoses, the available drug treatments can bring about more sustained improvement in a shorter period of time than any combination and regimen of non-drug treatments. Old-school psychoanalysts had to admit, as much as they didn't want to believe it, that some of their patients did better on a pill than they ever had with decades' worth of expensive weekly psychoanalysis sessions. This caused a revolution in psychiatry as these drugs were discovered from the 1950s onwards, and is the reason why drug treatment is so prominent today.
The fact that we have this ad-hoc, heuristic approach to psychiatry is the reason why some (for example, Scientologists, never mind that L. Ron Hubbard once saw psychiatrists as potential allies only to publicly turn on them once they decided he was full of shit while privately taking psychiatric drugs for his entire life) can claim that "there is no definitive scientific test for mental illness". Again, this misses the point. We can agree that normative thinking is bullshit, but it's a standard. You get diagnosed with a mental illness if you fit the symptoms of one to the degree that it's a detriment to you. What's actually going wrong behind the scenes to cause the same external symptoms may be quite different from one person to another, but for most groups of symptoms (i.e. mental illnesses), the things that are going wrong are similar enough to justify collectively labeling them "depression" or "schizophrenia" or what have you. It's even more evidence for the same when certain classes of drugs only work on certain illnesses.
As for the actual topic of the thread, I've been on an SSRI a couple times - tired old Celexa/citalopram, repatented as the active S-isomer and rechristened Lexapro. My anecdotal experience with it is pretty much par for what you'd expect from an SSRI. It made depression somewhat more bearable by causing apathy, it came with anhedonia and some sexual dysfunction, and it was much more of a bitch to withdraw from than benzodiazepines or opiates. The first time I went through withdrawal involved a month of shitty feelings when I was tapering off it followed by another month for my brain to get back to normal. For the second time I decided to stop taking it cold turkey, which led to 5 days without sleep followed by the same month for my brain to get back to normal. My ex-girlfriend was also on Lexapro; she's one of those people for whom SSRIs causes suicidal ideation and definitely should not have continued to take it, except that she never talked to her psychiatrist after the initial appointment and I eventually tapered her off with Prozac (the SSRI with the longest half-life) so her withdrawal was cake.
Why would my experience be pretty much par for an SSRI? Well, it seems that increasing serotonergic activity causes a compensatory downregulation in dopaminergic activity, causing those lovely side effects of apathy/anhedonia and sexual dysfunction. Makes all sorts of sense when you look at it that way. Apathy/anhedonia is actually the desired effect of SSRIs if you ask me - depression questionaire scores improve because you may still be depressed, but you're not actively depressed.
Now to joke around a bit. If "addiction" wasn't an undesirable side effect according to the medical community, I'd think that opiates could serve as wonderful antidepressants. The next best would probably be MAOIs or low doses of amphetamines. Of course, SSRIs are the safe, boring, just-as-dependence-inducing front-line class of medications here in the real world. Doctors avoid calling it MAOI/SSRI "withdrawal" and instead call it "discontinuation syndrome". I can see the reasoning, though. Our stupid monkey brains just can't deal with drugs that self-reinforce very well.
meditation is good way to handle depression that and release techniques such as boxing letting out what bothering you in each punch etc, excercise itself is helpful.
Zoloft is one the worst for causing sucide thoughts in my view avoid all drugs which are psychotropic.
On June 06 2009 21:35 Un4Seen wrote: Zoloft is one the worst for causing sucide thoughts in my view avoid all drugs which are psychotropic.
Yes, avoid that shit.
I've been on Zoloft, Citalopram, Paxil, Efexor (Venflaxanine or w/e), Buspiron and some other shit. If I had to choose of those I would easily go with Efexor. The other ones are very alike and numbs you out and lots of other shit, definately not worth it imo.
EPT
