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On June 04 2009 18:51 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2009 17:17 intrigue wrote:
it's pretty incredible how people like foucault have the audacity to post on a complex subject armed only with wikipedia blurbs and a few googled papers. really, you think that sitting in front of your computer playing e-psychiatrist qualifies you to dismiss entire categories of drugs? really?
sure, i realize using mental disorders as a blanket excuse for poor life choices is weak. but between you suggesting that problems such as depression manifest solely from external forces or some clown saying that it's the direct result of faults in the constitution of a person is... unbelievable. look - you can come up with your own theories on why these people are 'sad' but i can't imagine anyone who has not experienced it before to understand what it feels like to have a severe depressive episode. it's not something you can just brush off by going 'oh yay today i'm going to meet people! and make a to-do list! hang out with friends!'
if you are arguing that drugs aren't a surefire solution for every single person in the world, or that alternate forms of therapy may have equal or even more merit, well no shit good job being profound. how can people have such uninformed but polarized opinions?
I have no idea where you get the audacity from to be condenscending towards me, when not having the slightest idea of my backgroud. I've eaten 6 different SSRI:s, gotten 4-5 different diagnosis; depression, anxiety bs. I feel good right now, I'm soon done with my education and I don't eat any meds. Also I've written essays on psychiatry, I've studied psychology for a couple of semesters at uni as well and i've read books on SSRI/SNRI and medical companies. So please, for the love of god shut up. Also you don't seem to have any real clue about what depression is, and I assume you yourself or someone close to you has been severly depressed judging by your tone. Depression is a real state of being, but calling it a "disease" and creating patients out of people with the use of SSRI is so stupid. And YES, I believe almost any depression can be fixed with proper nutrition, exercise, having connections with other people, lifestyle etc. Since these are the things that create depression in the first place. Do you think it just happens usually for no reason whatsoever? There's ALWAYS a reason that something happens. People need to look at our society more for the roots of depression.
You seem to hate depression medications with a passion, since it didn't work for you. There are many people like you, but even more people for whom anti-depressants positively changed their lives.
Depression, as I mentioned earlier in another post, is multi-factorial, and it seems from medical literature that it has both genetic/physiologic and environmental roots. Most doctors are not the pill-pushers you seem to illustrate in your posts... In fact, any reasonable doctor would suggest a regimen of lifestyle changes, group therapy, psychotherapy, and if needed, medications.
It is unfortunate that anti-depressants didn't work for you. But do not be so overbearing in your posts in denouncing these "stupid drugs". They are not miracle drugs, but in a lot of people it has dramatically improved their lives, as I have seen firsthand in the hospital. Also, anyone can "write essays" (were these essays published in a peer-reviewed journal?) and "read books" on this subject; it by no means make you anything close to an expert on this subject.
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On June 04 2009 16:14 no_comprender wrote:
[...]depression/schizophrenia/whatever is YOU, it's not a foreign pathogen that infected you somehow[...]
Haha yeah lets throw it all in there and mix it all up, its all the same, every mental illness is the same it all can be cured by changing yourself
whats next? I mean think about it, down syndrome is also just about who YOU are, its not a foreign pathogen that infected you somehow...-
Are there a lot of people just bitching about their life? yes. Are there many drugs prescriptions that are unnecessary? yes.
Doesn't change the fact that drugs help a lot of people who actually do need them
btw I agree with Gokeys post, Foucault is obviously not as stupid and ignorant as people like kev or what his name was, but I think you are anything but objective on this matter.
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On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote:
Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
Depression is when you feel depressed all the time for no reason at all. Your brain chemistry is off and this is the result. It is dangerous to say something you say here. Know the difference between people with clinical depression and people that just feel depressed for a few days because something didn't work out for them.
Idiot.
As for this topic. People that take anti-depressives are going to commit suicide more often because they are supposed to be depressed.
How are you going to prove the AD caused the suicide? You can't as far as I can tell. Only way to try is to compare depressed people with placebo vs depressed people on the actual medicine.
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On June 04 2009 19:41 Diomedes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote:
Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL. Depression is when you feel depressed all the time for no reason at all. Your brain chemistry is off and this is the result. It is dangerous to say something you say here. Know the difference between people with clinical depression and people that just feel depressed for a few days because something didn't work out for them.
I'm going to focus on that paragraph, just to point out a few things. Depression doesn't really occur for no reason at all, it depends on what factors caused the person to go into depression. In some peoples cases there are chemical imbalances causing them to be that way, but often times there's some factor, or factors, that contribute to causing the depression.
Depression gets used way too much, and often times in replacement of just being sad, or feeling down. Feeling down/sad is not depression, but people mistake it as such all the time, which is why there are people that look down on it as a real problem.
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On June 04 2009 17:05 404.Nintu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2009 16:14 no_comprender wrote:
i'm hardly suggesting that people with real depression don't have a real problem, or that there aren't people who do suffer from mental illness that they can't control. but a persons own actions and thoughts have far more of an effect on your brain chemistry than supposed 'random fluctuations' that aren't random and happen for a reason.
i think many alleviate the blame on themselves for not doing as much as they could have due to that kind of view. a psychiatrist i know who says probably 70% of people coming to his practice claiming to have depression (and often seeking medication) are not even close to having the type of depression that requires treatment, yet due to the media buzz assume they have some chemical imbalance that needs to be medicated and go straight to the doctor before thinking about how they can fix the problem themselves.
the thing people don't realize about mental illness is that the depression/schizophrenia/whatever is YOU, it's not a foreign pathogen that infected you somehow, it is an aspect of who you are no matter how you try and deny it. yeah you might feel happier on the drugs, but thats you on drugs, not the real you somehow freed of an affliction. a person has a right to seek medication if they wish, but REAL recovery and management of mental illness is 99% perspiration, the drugs are only a band-aid
of course some people are so fucked up they don't have the capacity to help themselves, but attitudes like that one i derided enable people to give up easier because they think it's not their fault. and that's why i think those attitudes are damaging
Don't treat it like a weakness. It's something most people don't have and limits you a lot. Why not take a medication that was specifically designed to _CORRECT_ the imbalance? I agree about the 70% who show up thinking they have it and don't, but the 30% aren't insane. They simply have a chemical disorder. It can be partially corrected with medication, partially corrected with CBT therapy, and partially corrected with diet and exercise. But it's still a limiting disability that you don't have. That's like saying "You CAN walk without that cain, it just takes perspiration!" to a bunch of old people. People who are on SSRI wish they didn't have to be on it. It doesn't make them happier than the general populous, and most only report mild/moderate relief of symptoms of depression and anxiety. Yes, it's you on a drug. Tylenol is you on a drug. Having a beer is you on a drug. Walking with a Cain is you on a Cain. Maybe it is a bandaid. But sometimes bandaids are necessary. Sometimes Cains are necessary. They're both designed to give people the ability to live normally without risking injury or worsening the condition. Don't diminish the real medical need and relief that modern science has for this incredibly painful and dangerous illness. i'm not so much questioning the relief that medication can provide short term, but stressing that stuff in the realm of CBT is a far better option for long term management, because if you're going to fix a cognitive condition the underlying issues need to be addressed. imo the general public should be more aware of the effectiveness of CBT because imo its great as a preventative measure too. in my opinion almost everyone has the ability to be a functioning person within the normal range without crutches like drugs
but i also don't think that people who go to psychiatrists without medical depression shouldn't, because there are plenty of ways a professional can help them, after all those people aren't insane either, they did feel the need to see a psychiatrist. i think that demonstrates that many people see drugs as a quick fix when it's just not the case.
drugs might be a better option if you're depressed as a result of some environmental factor or whatever because they can restore the ability of the sufferer to self-motivate and address the problem, they allow people get off their feet and committed to CBT (if needed) and changing diet, getting their sleeping and all that stuff down, but unless sufferers commit to activity promoting changes in their own brain they won't experience the best outcomes possible. especially for people who are chronically depressed because of a fucked up childhood or whatever. when people are on the drugs they feel so much better they think the problem is solved, but it's not really. the brain has a knack for restoring the status quo. as you can tell i'm a huge fan of CBT, but CBT is only an aspect of the things a person can do to mediate their own cognition
anyway i have a strong opinion on this due to extensive personal experience, so i hope you don't view my posts as written by a person who has little idea about the nitty-gritty of mental illness. i know how frustrating it is to know someone who refuses to even take the drugs OR undergo CBT, but i also know how pathetic the situation is when a person sees them self as afflicted by a disease and seems incapable of working to restore the a normal, functioning mindset, and simply allows drugs to keep them afloat. neither are viable long term imo
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I wonder how many of the sources here has scientology origin. They really like this topic for unknown reasons.
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One of my favorite professors and mentors in college suffered from borderline personality disorder ... trust me, being around her so much allowed me to see truly how difficult it is. She was doing everything she could to cope with and treat her imbalance, but even then sometimes it got out of hand. The drugs actually do help her deal with things, including an AD.
I definitely agree with all the people saying correlation does not equal causation. It's still funny that the drug manufacturers still don't know whether there is a correlation or causation lol. Funny in a very dark and ironic way.
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On June 04 2009 21:28 Eatme wrote:
I wonder how many of the sources here has scientology origin. They really like this topic for unknown reasons.
Please shut up lol. I hate it when people bring up scientology right away when you're criticizing anti-depressants. I don't think anyone here is a scientologists, so enough. Don't bring slandering into this
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On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote:
Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
so stupid
anyway, yes there is a link between suicide and anti depressants but it's not a major link, anti depressants help many more people than they hurt. the main issue with anti depressants (relating to suicide) is that the already skewed chemical imbalance that causes severe depression can become even more skewed if the right dosage or medication isn't used.
there's also a period when you first start the medication that you feel like shit (at least for me there was about a week where I felt much worse than most of the time when I was depressed and wasn't on the medication) which I think can be attributed to the rapid change in the chemicals your body is releasing? that may count for some of the suicides related to anti-depressants.
On June 04 2009 14:10 no_comprender wrote:
its good to see that some here on tl aren't deluded by the idea that depression is a "disease", that sufferers are immune from personal responsibility
that "its a chemical imbalance" argument that you hear from depressed celebrities looking to preserve their own sense of worth is far too widely accepted imo
you know how insulting you are to people that actually have real depression? maybe you should try spending time with people that actually have. both my parents were diagnosed with manic depression from a young age and I've seen them at the worst points. my mother went through period a couple years where she'd drink to bottles of wine a night, my father sometimes can't even get out of bed because he feels so terrible and both of them aren't lazy, i rarely seem them ever miss work. infact the only time my father has called in sick last year was when he had an adverse reaction to the antibiotics he got for the cold he had this winter* and passed out in the bathroom. it's not their inability to cope it's an honest chemical imbalance/disorder w/e that's outside of their control without the use of anti depressants.
the fact that you're so ignorant and make rude and insulting statements like that honestly disgusts me beyond measure.
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There's a link between anti depressants and suicide, but how many lifes would've been lost if they werent on drugs?
I've had a depression myself, and I agree with people saying its "you".
All I did for 6 months was sleep..sleeping was good. But then I changed the way I was thinking about things..negative affirmations keep feeding your sub-consious and its a vicious circle, it just gets worse and worse because you make it worse.
In the end I decided to just fuck it. Ignore everything that made me sad and just look at life as a fucking game. In the end very little matters and you wont achieve anything unless you're willing to fuck all the consequences.
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Unless you've actually somehow become a psychopath, I don't think that will help. Lots of depressed people see that as the solution, and will try it for a few days... And then realise they still have feelings that can't just be destroyed.
I think it's very personal how each person must deal with depression. Sometimes there's a root cause in the events of your daily life that makes you depressed. In that case I don't think drugs are the answer, because you're basically curing the symptoms and not the problem (which your poor body is urging you to fix). Other times it's a traumatic event from your past that you've never been able to see objectively and actually separate from the present. In that case I also don't think drugs are the answer. And of course, sometimes it's just a genetic anomaly that keeps a person from being happy. These people may need drugs.
Most people understand the first two (of which there are more related), but lots of people seem to misunderstand the last. We don't understand the brain that well, as a scientific community, but we know enough to know that everyone's is different. We know that some people have significant less serotonin to release than others. For those people, no matter how good their lives are, they can only be a little happy at a time. If the brain for whatever reason rarely releases that little bit of happiness, that's what one might consider an illness.
Whatever anecdotal evidence you have like 'I was depressed once. Just manned up and toughed it out and now I'm great' is pretty meaningless because unless you're representative of the human race, it doesn't reflect what other people need to do. We're all glad that worked for you, and thanks for sharing your story. Just don't asset that it's the be all and end all solution.
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I just want to make clear that it's about so much more than a single transmittor substance called Serotonin. The neurobiology of the brain is 100000 times more complex than that, and the idea that you should just affect one neurotransmitter and that would allieviate depression, anxiety, PMS, anorexia etc is:
P R E P O S T E R O U S
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Also, you can boost your serotonin levels through "natural" means rather than anti-depressants, a fact many people don't seem to understand.
Now, exercise and proper nutrition and sleep probably has the same efficacy or better than anti-depressants (hell even placebo has better efficacy in many tests). Why would you want to get the drug then? Someone who has been on anti-depressants knows all about the sexual dysfunction for instance. Why the hell isn't this side-effect more widely debated? It literarly sucks ASS not being able to fuck or jerk off or whatever you do. It's so bad it's not even worth it for a high percentage of people eating anti-depressants. And btw, I've seen studies that say that up to 50% of all people (I don't like the word "patients" in this context) who are prescribed anti-depressants, quit taking them because of side-effects, the medicine not working etc.
The medical community are having a hard time seeing alternatives to medicines as treatment. That is their biggest achilles heel by far.
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On June 04 2009 07:52 keV. wrote:
Depression spawns from the idea that other people have a better life than you.
THEY DON'T
LIFE IS HARD. DEAL.
This is not really true, you dont think its possible that a person accepts that he is living the 'high life' even when hes unhappy and the knowledge that theres nothing much better to aim for is depressing?
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(Did not read thread, but I think this is new)
Serious depression (that is, medication is applied) typically means two things:
* you are depressed
* you are inactive/passive.
Antidepressants fix both things:
* they reduce the depression ("cheer you up")
* they make you more active ("activation")
Now the critical point is:
if the activation comes BEFORE the cheering up (due to a certain drug or your biology or whatever), you are in a state of being deeply depressed and highly active. This is what often leads to suicide when someone is on antidepressants. You are deeply depressed, but very active - enough for possible self damage (if you're the type).
So a "good" (aka working for you) antidepressant cheers you up BEFORE it makes you more active... then nothing bad should happen.
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On June 05 2009 01:52 Foucault wrote:
Also, you can boost your serotonin levels through "natural" means rather than anti-depressants, a fact many people don't seem to understand.
Now, exercise and proper nutrition and sleep probably has the same efficacy or better than anti-depressants (hell even placebo has better efficacy in many tests). Why would you want to get the drug then? Someone who has been on anti-depressants knows all about the sexual dysfunction for instance. Why the hell isn't this side-effect more widely debated? It literarly sucks ASS not being able to fuck or jerk off or whatever you do. It's so bad it's not even worth it for a high percentage of people eating anti-depressants. And btw, I've seen studies that say that up to 50% of all people (I don't like the word "patients" in this context) who are prescribed anti-depressants, quit taking them because of side-effects, the medicine not working etc.
The medical community are having a hard time seeing alternatives to medicines as treatment. That is their biggest achilles heel by far.
This is exactly the reason why most doctors don't prescribe anti-depressants right off the bat to most people. Anti-depressants are supposed to be prescribed if lifestyle changes such as more sleep/less stress are not helpful in alleviating symptoms.
If these changes don't work, a doctor can recommend anti-depressants. You make it seem like doctors are forcing anti-depressants on people and now these people have to deal with the side effects of them. Doctors aren't forcing people to take medication. All they can do is suggest it to a patient and talk about it with them. It is up to the individual patient to determine if it is worth all the possible side effects (such as sexual dysfunction).
I am also curious as to what other "natural" or "alternative" treatments you are referring to that haven't already been discussed in this thread. People have all mentioned how lifestyle/environmental changes can alter neurotransmitter levels and effect mood. Anti-depressants are supposed to be recommended in cases where these "natural" means of alleviating symptoms don't work.
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pioneer the i'm not being insulting at all. i am simply stating the facts which i have come to know from personal experience. my family is chock full of people with mental illness, my mother has been diagnosed with bipolar and schizophrenia as well as having episodes of severe depression. she is currently institutionalized and will be for the rest of her life. my father has also been depressed at various times. not 2 months ago my 21yo cousin who i've been close with all my life was hospitalized for a psychotic episode and has been chronically depressed for 2 years. one of my best friends has 'borderline personality disorder' and has suffered severe depression. and thats not all! i myself was diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar when was 16, succeeding at addressing my own issues taught me more about the human mind than reading a thousand books or knowing a million mental cases. i'll add too that i'm now a normally functioning person. in every case i know the root or at least have a general idea of why they (and myself) developed those mental characteristics, its not hard to see if you know how to look. there is a reason for everything and nothing is black and white. they weren't people who had everything going for them and were suddenly struck down out of the blue by a random brain chemistry change. there is a reason for everything that happens inside your own brain
with regard to your parents situation, its natural to want to think that they did all a person can do but lost out because "depression is incurable and unavoidable". and maybe they did try but didn't do the right things because they didn't know what to do. but i think the general sentiment is malignant. IMO classifying an aspect of your mind as a foreign agent is a copout. i believe everybody has a baseline mental state that is functional and it is never impossible to restore that order
i essentially agree with everything forcault has said and feel a strong connection with his sentiments. his point about the fact that our society creates an environment where certain people will have a harder time avoiding mental illness is extremely relevant to this whole issue
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CONSPIRACY!
I knew it! Those bastards are trying to kill the depressed FASTER!!!
D:
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On June 05 2009 01:46 Foucault wrote:
I just want to make clear that it's about so much more than a single transmittor substance called Serotonin. The neurobiology of the brain is 100000 times more complex than that, and the idea that you should just affect one neurotransmitter and that would allieviate depression, anxiety, PMS, anorexia etc is:
P R E P O S T E R O U S
You've set up the typical straw man argument. No one in this thread has said that serotonin is the ONLY thing causing depression. Depression seems to be the result of a complex interplay between genetic/physiologic and environmental factors. Medications are only one part of the current standard of care, which is why doctors recommend it with other forms of treatment, such as lifestyle changes/programs, psychotherapy, etc. In addition, numerous anti-depressant drugs have direct or indirect effects on other neurotransmitters, such as norepinephrine and dopamine.
On June 05 2009 01:52 Foucault wrote:
Now, exercise and proper nutrition and sleep probably has the same efficacy or better than anti-depressants (hell even placebo has better efficacy in many tests). Why would you want to get the drug then?
Your solution to depression boils down to "walk it off". Everyone is different; some people are able to take that first, hardest step by themselves; others need a combination of aforementioned therapies, only one of which is medications.
You may point to individual clinical trials that show ambivalent data on certain medications, but taken as a whole in meta-analyses, anti-depressants have strong evidence to back their efficacy. I find it amusing that you make such an adamant, blanket statement ("Why would you want to get the drug then?") after using the word "probably" in the sentence immediately prior.
On June 05 2009 01:52 Foucault wrote:
Someone who has been on anti-depressants knows all about the sexual dysfunction for instance. Why the hell isn't this side-effect more widely debated? It literarly sucks ASS not being able to fuck or jerk off or whatever you do. It's so bad it's not even worth it for a high percentage of people eating anti-depressants.
Sexual dysfunction is a possible side effect that is discussed by every competent doctor with the patient before starting on anti-depressants. This side effect is common knowledge and is one of the things that are mandatory to be documented in patient charts; I am not sure how you want it to be "more widely debated". For most people who are severely depressed, they can't function even at a basic level in their daily lives, much less thinking of their sexuality.
On June 05 2009 01:52 Foucault wrote:
The medical community are having a hard time seeing alternatives to medicines as treatment. That is their biggest achilles heel by far.
As stated by numerous people in this thread, medications are only one of the many treatment modalities recommended by doctors for people with depression. You have a very one-dimensional and inaccurate view of the medical community's approach to depression.
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On June 05 2009 03:03 no_comprender wrote:
pioneer the i'm not being insulting at all. i am simply stating the facts which i have come to know from personal experience. my family is chock full of people with mental illness, my mother has been diagnosed with bipolar and schizophrenia as well as having episodes of severe depression. she is currently institutionalized and will be for the rest of her life. my father has also been depressed at various times. not 2 months ago my 21yo cousin who i've been close with all my life was hospitalized for a psychotic episode and has been chronically depressed for 2 years. one of my best friends has 'borderline personality disorder' and has suffered severe depression. and thats not all! i myself was diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar when was 16, succeeding at addressing my own issues taught me more about the human mind than reading a thousand books or knowing a million mental cases. i'll add too that i'm now a normally functioning person. in every case i know the root or at least have a general idea of why they (and myself) developed those mental characteristics, its not hard to see if you know how to look. there is a reason for everything and nothing is black and white. they weren't people who had everything going for them and were suddenly struck down out of the blue by a random brain chemistry change. there is a reason for everything that happens inside your own brain
with regard to your parents situation, its natural to want to think that they did all a person can do but lost out because "depression is incurable and unavoidable". and maybe they did try but didn't do the right things because they didn't know what to do. but i think the general sentiment is malignant. IMO classifying an aspect of your mind as a foreign agent is a copout. i believe everybody has a baseline mental state that is functional and it is never impossible to restore that order
i essentially agree with everything forcault has said and feel a strong connection with his sentiments. his point about the fact that our society creates an environment where certain people will have a harder time avoiding mental illness is extremely relevant to this whole issue
Both my parents eat right and exercise, the general outlines of dealing with depression without medication. And manic depression has been shown to deal directly with chemical imbalances, you'd think someone the talks about knowing so much about the human mind would realize that.
Manic depression =/= not just feeling a little down.
I also have just as much experience with it, my grandmother has severe bipolar disorder and takes medication to deal with it and it works. I know how she acted when she was eating, etc. and doing therapy without medication and I know how she acts now with medication, the difference is massive.
I also have an uncle that blew his brains out when he was 16. It's not me just looking at the best side of things or ignoring reality, I've seen what works and what doesn't and medication is a viable and in many cases the best alternative. You also don't deal with schizophrenia by just 'working through it' it require medication.
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EPT
