On May 10 2009 02:20 travis wrote: What I am saying is that the system is corrupt and people in power pretty much never give the tiniest fuck about the general populous.
I want you to go and meet your local city council people or whoever is in charge of the water treatment facilities. If you think the various board members and comptrollers are out to simply fuck over people and make a quick buck (wooooooo, $45,000/year salary!), you either live in Detroit or you've got a warped understanding of society.
This reasoning is flawed.
1.) those people weren't involved with the process that got fluoride in the water in the first place.
2.) those people are just doing their job, they aren't people who decide whether or not it is right for water to be fluoridated.
In short: those aren't the people I am talking about.
Those ARE the people who decided to put fluoride in the water. Every single county in the goddamn country decides how to treat their own water. The federal government is completely irrelevant in this discussion, except when the EPA and CDC make suggestions (which, again, has nothing to do with "corrupt politicians.") Search Congress for a bill on fluoride and let me know what you come up with.
Why do you think some people are so vehement about this topic? WTF do they have to gain?
I for one am on the payroll of big business in order to defend their dumping of toxic waste into the water supply on this particular forum. There's at least one of us for every forum, it's the only way to keep the masses quiet.
On May 10 2009 02:20 travis wrote: What I am saying is that the system is corrupt and people in power pretty much never give the tiniest fuck about the general populous.
I want you to go and meet your local city council people or whoever is in charge of the water treatment facilities. If you think the various board members and comptrollers are out to simply fuck over people and make a quick buck (wooooooo, $45,000/year salary!), you either live in Detroit or you've got a warped understanding of society.
This reasoning is flawed.
1.) those people weren't involved with the process that got fluoride in the water in the first place.
2.) those people are just doing their job, they aren't people who decide whether or not it is right for water to be fluoridated.
In short: those aren't the people I am talking about.
Those ARE the people who decided to put fluoride in the water. Every single county in the goddamn country decides how to treat their own water. The federal government is completely irrelevant in this discussion, except when the EPA and CDC make suggestions (which, again, has nothing to do with "corrupt politicians.") Search Congress for a bill on fluoride and let me know what you come up with.
You act as if these politicians work in a vacuum. There are lots of outside factors that may even have more control than politicians themselves. Big business is just one.
On May 10 2009 02:20 travis wrote: What I am saying is that the system is corrupt and people in power pretty much never give the tiniest fuck about the general populous.
I want you to go and meet your local city council people or whoever is in charge of the water treatment facilities. If you think the various board members and comptrollers are out to simply fuck over people and make a quick buck (wooooooo, $45,000/year salary!), you either live in Detroit or you've got a warped understanding of society.
This reasoning is flawed.
1.) those people weren't involved with the process that got fluoride in the water in the first place.
2.) those people are just doing their job, they aren't people who decide whether or not it is right for water to be fluoridated.
In short: those aren't the people I am talking about.
Those ARE the people who decided to put fluoride in the water. Every single county in the goddamn country decides how to treat their own water. The federal government is completely irrelevant in this discussion, except when the EPA and CDC make suggestions (which, again, has nothing to do with "corrupt politicians.") Search Congress for a bill on fluoride and let me know what you come up with.
Why do you think some people are so vehement about this topic? WTF do they have to gain?
I for one am on the payroll of big business in order to defend their dumping of toxic waste into the water supply on this particular forum. There's at least one of us for every forum, it's the only way to keep the masses quiet.
Are you aware that you are trolling?
Are you aware that simply alluding that there is some kind of conspiracy involving big business and lobbyists isn't the same as making a reasonable case? Either make a point or don't make one, don't go "big business... lobbyists... massive profits... corruption..." and hope that people will fill in the blanks and think like you. If you think you can make a real, structured, backed up argument about a conspiracy here then go ahead. Just saying "big business" and "everyone who disagrees with me must have something to gain" doesn't cut it.
The reason I don't respond to you with anything above ridicule is because you don't deserve it. I can't force you to make a real argument but when you just bash your head against the keyboard and then hit post I'm going to knock you down.
On May 10 2009 02:20 travis wrote: What I am saying is that the system is corrupt and people in power pretty much never give the tiniest fuck about the general populous.
I want you to go and meet your local city council people or whoever is in charge of the water treatment facilities. If you think the various board members and comptrollers are out to simply fuck over people and make a quick buck (wooooooo, $45,000/year salary!), you either live in Detroit or you've got a warped understanding of society.
This reasoning is flawed.
1.) those people weren't involved with the process that got fluoride in the water in the first place.
2.) those people are just doing their job, they aren't people who decide whether or not it is right for water to be fluoridated.
In short: those aren't the people I am talking about.
Those ARE the people who decided to put fluoride in the water. Every single county in the goddamn country decides how to treat their own water. The federal government is completely irrelevant in this discussion, except when the EPA and CDC make suggestions (which, again, has nothing to do with "corrupt politicians.") Search Congress for a bill on fluoride and let me know what you come up with.
That's not what I am saying.
Government, both state and federal, make TONS of decisions where they themselves are completely ignorant of the topic. When the department of health (formerly USPHS) and the ADA both endorse fluoridation, why would state officials possibly argue? It isn't their responsibility to look into this stuff.
And so we go back to why the department of health and ADA endorse fluoridation. Which is pretty simple.
The ADA endorsed fluoridation because they are dentists. They are interested in keeping teeth healthy, which fluoridation helps do. They are not, however, interested in researching the potential hazards of long term fluoride ingestion.
The department of health is a government body. It is political. Just like all the other government bodies, it's primary concern often gets swayed by lobbyists. Ask yourself who stood to profit from fluoridation? There certainly were groups who did. Where do you think fluoride comes from? It was originally a waste product. Fluoridation of water supplies allows big business to not only get rid of their waste, but to make MASSIVE profit doing so.
Why do you think some people are so vehement about this topic? WTF do they have to gain?
Actually, it would make more sense for dentists to be against it, since they'd have those people coming in and paying for flouride, if we're going with this whole 'EVERYONE IS OUT FOR THE GREEN' concept. But don't let a little logic stop ya now!
On May 10 2009 02:20 travis wrote: What I am saying is that the system is corrupt and people in power pretty much never give the tiniest fuck about the general populous.
I want you to go and meet your local city council people or whoever is in charge of the water treatment facilities. If you think the various board members and comptrollers are out to simply fuck over people and make a quick buck (wooooooo, $45,000/year salary!), you either live in Detroit or you've got a warped understanding of society.
This reasoning is flawed.
1.) those people weren't involved with the process that got fluoride in the water in the first place.
2.) those people are just doing their job, they aren't people who decide whether or not it is right for water to be fluoridated.
In short: those aren't the people I am talking about.
Those ARE the people who decided to put fluoride in the water. Every single county in the goddamn country decides how to treat their own water. The federal government is completely irrelevant in this discussion, except when the EPA and CDC make suggestions (which, again, has nothing to do with "corrupt politicians.") Search Congress for a bill on fluoride and let me know what you come up with.
You act as if these politicians work in a vacuum. There are lots of outside factors that may even have more control than politicians themselves. Big business is just one.
No, that's a built in assumption to how our political system works. Interest group pluralism/liberalism- it's got problems (especially with campaign financing) but the good parts outweigh the bad. You are probably part of multiple interest groups, whether you know it or not.
And there is no Big Fluoride lobby paying off the 15,000+ city council people in the US and if you really felt it was an important issue, you have the opportunity to become one of them yourself and change the public policy.
Also, Hawk just crushed it. But I bet the AADA (Anti-American Dentist Association) is behind the fluoridation push.
On May 09 2009 10:55 Shizuru~ wrote: again... educate urself, research on facts before u refutes others blindly... really there are alot of things people would call me a nut job for if i posted them,
Hmm if people would call you a nut job for sharing a ton of the views that you hold, maybe you should re-examine or rethink some of your views.
While I don't agree with you that fluoride is as terrifying as some make it out to be, I do agree that the government should either:
1) educate people with veritable facts about fluoride because obviously if you leave people in the dark about certain facts, some paranoid folks will start doing their own research and come to unreasonable conclusions. After some amount of research (via google, because this is what most people would use to find information), I come to the conclusion that at the very least, the government is doing a pretty shitty job of REASSURING people that fluoride is safe.
2) Give the no-fluoride option to people who don't want it. Yes, in the big picture fluoride benefits society as a whole, but come on, what if I was an old lady who didn't care about my teeth? What if I didn't have any teeth in the first place? What if I was just some paranoid guy who really REALLY didn't want those chemicals in me because it psychologically unsettles me?
Option 1 pretty much negates option 2 there, at least it should in any realistic society. The world isn't perfect, you can't spend tons on impractical bullshit for a few people. I'm not for the tyranny of the masses usually, but given the circumstances it is completely acceptable. There will always be neurotic people with an unrealistic world view, we can't go around spending money (which we don't even have) to put some unfounded arguments to rest, this is what your first option is for.
On May 09 2009 19:58 Shizuru~ wrote: fluoride works when apllied directly onto the teeth's surface, there is no need to ingest it, they put it in our water, saying its for the health for our teeth? its like saying putting some parts of shampoo in our water supply and saying it'll help our hair's look/health while people are gonna drink that water?
Hitler put fluoride into the water the Jewish drank in the concentration camp during the holocaust as a poison...
Guess what!? When you drink water with small amounts of floride in it; it touches your teeth! Yes I know what a concept..things you drink touch your teeth, no fucking way!? Guess what? It works too, studies have clearly shown better tooth health in communities exposed to florided water. Think. Things. Through.
And in case you missed it, that was idras point. *shakes head* You're really dense.
uhm... let me repeat my points.... currently, they put fluoride into our water, so that when we drink it, it would touches our teeth and benefits our oral heatlh... my points is, since u don have to ingest(IE:DRINK) the fluoride for it to have it benefits, why put that thing into our drinking water when there's known side effects.... most of european countires doesn't have fluoride in their water supplies... and yet they don't have as much of an oral health issues as people who had fluoride in their water did.
Show me an actual study somewhere that says fluoride doesn't benefit your teeth if you ingest it, because as far as I know, by ingesting the fluoride, your body incorporates that into your teeth.
I mean, seriously, how often do you think the fluoride would stay in contact with your teeth if all you do is brush with fluoride. It'll barely do anything.
Juciyfruit that's completely wrong, by ingesting flouride you aren't doing shit for your teeth, your body just shits it out (so long as it's in small amounts). You know how teeth is made from a calcium compound, well acids break down calcium bound to chlorine atoms somewhat easily. However, acids have a harder time breaking down a harder compound made from flouride and calcium. Essentially a chemical reaction takes place very slowly when flouride is present that replaces the chloride in your teeth molecules to flouride which makes the teeth less prone to decay.
Chemistry FTW.
Close, but not quite. The fluoride ion actually replaces a hydroxide group, not a chlorine atom. But you have the general idea. Ingesting fluoride does appear to make a difference, but only in children whose permanent teeth are in the process of being formed. Once you have your adult teeth, ingesting it appears to be pretty pointless by all accounts.
On May 09 2009 19:58 Shizuru~ wrote: fluoride works when apllied directly onto the teeth's surface, there is no need to ingest it, they put it in our water, saying its for the health for our teeth? its like saying putting some parts of shampoo in our water supply and saying it'll help our hair's look/health while people are gonna drink that water?
Hitler put fluoride into the water the Jewish drank in the concentration camp during the holocaust as a poison...
Guess what!? When you drink water with small amounts of floride in it; it touches your teeth! Yes I know what a concept..things you drink touch your teeth, no fucking way!? Guess what? It works too, studies have clearly shown better tooth health in communities exposed to florided water. Think. Things. Through.
And in case you missed it, that was idras point. *shakes head* You're really dense.
uhm... let me repeat my points.... currently, they put fluoride into our water, so that when we drink it, it would touches our teeth and benefits our oral heatlh... my points is, since u don have to ingest(IE:DRINK) the fluoride for it to have it benefits, why put that thing into our drinking water when there's known side effects.... most of european countires doesn't have fluoride in their water supplies... and yet they don't have as much of an oral health issues as people who had fluoride in their water did.
Show me an actual study somewhere that says fluoride doesn't benefit your teeth if you ingest it, because as far as I know, by ingesting the fluoride, your body incorporates that into your teeth.
I mean, seriously, how often do you think the fluoride would stay in contact with your teeth if all you do is brush with fluoride. It'll barely do anything.
Juciyfruit that's completely wrong, by ingesting flouride you aren't doing shit for your teeth, your body just shits it out (so long as it's in small amounts). You know how teeth is made from a calcium compound, well acids break down calcium bound to chlorine atoms somewhat easily. However, acids have a harder time breaking down a harder compound made from flouride and calcium. Essentially a chemical reaction takes place very slowly when flouride is present that replaces the chloride in your teeth molecules to flouride which makes the teeth less prone to decay.
Chemistry FTW.
Close, but not quite. The fluoride ion actually replaces a hydroxide group, not a chlorine atom. But you have the general idea. Ingesting fluoride does appear to make a difference, but only in children whose permanent teeth are in the process of being formed. Once you have your adult teeth, ingesting it appears to be pretty pointless by all accounts.
Yes but I do believe that most of the "negative" effects are also predominant in children as well. I was actually thinking about the process of tooth buildup when I was talking about the benefits of ingesting fluoride, so thanks for the addition.
It seems pretty obvious to me that if the only time fluoride helps you is when it's in direct contact with your teeth, then the overall effect would've been utterly negligible because, again, how many minutes a day do you keep fluoride on your teeth anyways? In any case, my opinion is that it's definitely not POINTLESS to put the fluoride in drinking water.
All those theories that the government is only putting fluoride in the water to help dispose of industrial waste..... seriously, come on now.
On May 10 2009 12:41 Juicyfruit wrote: All those theories that the government is only putting fluoride in the water to help dispose of industrial waste..... seriously, come on now.
This isn't even a question, it's a fact.
hydrofluorosilicic acid - waste from fertilizer.
sodium fluoride - neutralized hydrofluoric acid(waste from fertilizer) these are what is used in fluoridation of water.
there aren't my opinions, this is just easily verifiable fact.
I can buy that 50 years ago it would have been easier to fool the decision makers simply because of the lack of information, and the government might just have been trying to outsource the situation by killing two birds with one stone - getting rid of the fluoride waste (which wasn't shown to have any harm when ingested at the level they were introducing it to the water supply) and even deriving benefits from it.
I am not a conformist by any way. I like to question things that are told, but even from a pure monetary-analysis, it doesn't seem logical to just dump a bunch of chemicals into the water if they thought it would risk deteriorating the health of the public, which would invariably come back and bite them in the ass.
73 references, written by an accredited dentist. If you disagree with what I am saying, then actually bother reading that. But I wonder how many actually will?
(I don't care about arguing with any of you anymore. Respond to me all you want but don't be surprised if I don't reply)
73 references, written by an accredited dentist. If you disagree with what I am saying, then actually bother reading that. But I wonder how many actually will?
(I don't care about arguing with any of you anymore. Respond to me all you want but don't be surprised if I don't reply)
Interesting. Was this easy to find? Because I was looking for something like this for a while now, since what really bugged me and made me unsure about fluoride was the lack of information from a credible source. I will actually give this a good read because unlike most anti-fluoride propaganda, this actually looks legit.
I will reserve my judgment after I actually look at the whole thing, though.
EPT
