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Physician
United States4146 Posts
- this guy represents, and is talking as a spokesman for over 7000 EPA scientists and employees. - even if ur a stubborn mule half way through u won't need to hear much more to realize it's in ur best interest to be concerned; if ur not worried by the end, ur outright retarded.. (I speak of course to those that live in areas were the water is fluoridated, double pun not intended even though humor might be found) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8903910725020792574 | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
http://www.whistleblowertv.org/2009/03/episode10/ - it's all interesting but the fluoride part starts at minute 17, it's short but it will explain to u why that union is so important. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
I haven't bothered correcting many of the ignorant or outright incorrect statements made by many about the fluoride subject, on both sides; that's not my interest even if I had the time for it - still I might review a few of the most harmful comments this weekend if I find time just to dissipate some the misconceptions that offend critical thinking the most. Physician please read this back and imagine someone posted this who wasn't you and state how this is a reasonable comment. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 14 2009 10:03 Frits wrote: Physician please read this back and imagine someone posted this who wasn't you and state how this is a reasonable comment. I thought it was perfectly reasonable, assuming he actually knows what he is talking about. | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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Frits
11782 Posts
On May 14 2009 10:09 travis wrote: I thought it was perfectly reasonable, assuming he actually knows what he is talking about. No it's a bunch of pompous bullshit, either you use arguments and add to the discussion or shut up until you actually find the time to do so. Any discussion should be based on it's arguments, not the (self-proclaimed) authority of someone. You will find this in any critical thinking textbook which makes the comment about it somewhat ironic. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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aRod
United States758 Posts
In the past, it made sense to fluoridate water to prevent cavities. But nowadays people brush their teeth and visit the dentist more frequently and we no longer see increased cavity rates in regions without fluoridated water. Also the increases in bone mass provided by fluoride don’t seem to correlate with bone strength or health and may even increase the rates of osteosarcoma and fractures. The original reason we started fluorinating water don’t seem to apply to today’s world (Not necessary for cavity prevention or bone health). It may be the case that a low level of fluoride is still beneficial, but I don’t see any reason for the fluoride currently in the water supply. | ||
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Shizuru~
Malaysia1676 Posts
kinda weird though this thread has been hijacked for 20+ page on an issues not quite related to the op lol... btw physician, are u a doctor in RL? | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On May 14 2009 08:37 travis wrote: correct me if I am wrong, but natural water fluoridation comes from fluorine, whereas human fluoridation is done through various fluorine compounds, which are just believed to dissolve with no ill effects. I wasn't talking about fluorine I was talking about the waste sources that the fluorine compounds we use come from. I guess that is misleading on my part. But my point is that sodium fluoride, as well as the other compounds we use, are derived from hazardous waste. I am sure that almost all of it dissolves. But what about the bit that doesn't? And what about all the other possible chemical processes that can occur in our water thanks to the introduction of various fluoride compounds? And what about potential radioactivity? I really don't know, this is pure speculation. But do you know? I really am not trying to support my argument here..I really don't have much knowledge of chemistry. Just trying to introduce ideas. My argument is centered around the fact that the whole process was clearly an agenda to make money and remove waste, and for that reason alone we shouldn't be inclined to trust it. fluorine, sodium fluoride, hydrosiloflouoricicic acid, fluoridation, fluoride, this whole thing is starting to confuse me now Alright, I don't know how much chemistry you know already, but let me try to give you a chemistry lesson about Fluorine, Fluoride, toothpaste, and fluoridated drinking water, without using too much chemistry jargon. "Fluorine" is the element. "Fluoride" = Fluorine ion. An "ion" is just an atom with missing electrons or extra electrons, making it either positively- or negatively-charged, respectively. In this case, a Fluoride ion is a Fluorine atom plus one electron, making it negatively-charged. "Sodium Fluoride", used in toothpaste, is an "ionic" compound consisting of positively-charged Sodium ions (Sodium minus one electron) and negatively-charged Fluoride ions (Fluorine plus one electron). When Sodium and Fluorine come together, each Sodium atom gives an electron to each Fluorine atom, making one a positive ion and the other a negative ion. As you might guess, since the two ions have opposite charges, they attract each other, causing them to stick to each other. "Sodium Chloride" (table salt) is similar: positive Sodium ions and negative Chloride ions. Ionic compounds like these dissolve fairly easily in water because water molecules have a positive side and a negative side. You can picture water molecules as bar magnets, with north and south poles. To picture an ionic compound dissolving, picture taking a really big bar magnet and placing one end on a table filled with smaller bar magnets. E.g. put the north end on the table and all the surrounding magnets will turn so that their south ends point towards it. This is what it looks like when an ion dissolves in water. The individual Sodium and Fluoride/Chloride ions end up surrounded by water molecules. Now that you can visualize Fluoride ions dissolved in water, you can start to understand why we talk about fluoridated water without specifying how it's fluoridated. In the end, the fluoride ions separate from the rest of the compound when it dissolves. The only concern is, what is the rest of the compound made of? According to Wikipedia, the three compounds used to fluoridate water are Sodium Fluoride and two compounds consisting of Fluorine, Silicon, and either Hydrogen or Sodium. Clearly the Sodium ions are fine: we ingest them all the time from salt. And Hydrogen ions just mean the water is a tad more acidic (I'll explain this in my next post, in case you're curious). But what about the Silicon? You might be interested to know that one of these Silicon compounds is "a cheap liquid byproduct of phosphate fertilizer manufacture". Getting worried?  Well, there's no reason to be: "Silicon is in human connective tissues, bones, teeth, skin, eyes, glands and organs. It is a major constituent of collagen which helps keep our skin elastic, and it helps calcium in maintaining bone strength." (source) Not to mention these compounds contain 6 times as much Fluorine as they do Silicon.So in conclusion, the substances used to fluoridate water are, aside from their Fluorine content, harmless. | ||
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
The different acid names tell you where the extra Hydrogen / protons come from, e.g. Sulfuric Acid consists of H2SO4 dissolved in water, where it splits into two positive H+ ions and one negative SO4- ion. The opposite of acids, bases, are water with extra hydroxide (OH-) ions, which are negatively-charged. When you combine an acid and a base, the positive H+ ions and the negative OH- ions combine to form H2O, i.e. water. Cool, huh? That's acids and bases in a nutshell.  (By the way, if you ever look up acids on Wikipedia, you'll see them talking about "protons" and "Hydronium ions". These are just different names for H+ ions. Since Hydrogen is one proton and one electron, a positive Hydrogen atom is actually a lone proton.)Now here's something crazy: apparently water doesn't just sit there as H2O: it spontaneously splits into H+ and OH- ions, which spontaneously combine to form H2O again.  | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 14 2009 13:04 Bill307 wrote: Now here's something crazy: apparently water doesn't just sit there as H2O: it spontaneously splits into H+ and OH- ions, which spontaneously combine to form H2O again. edit: just realized im stupid anyways thanks for the lesson i learned a lot about the quote, what does that do as far as the functionality that water has for us? i mean water seems to be special in many ways, are any of those ways related to this? | ||
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
If teaching didn't pay so badly I might actually go into it. Water sticks together because the molecules are half-positive and half-negative. Just picture a bunch of mini bar magnets and everything makes sense. That's why water sticks to a lot of materials, as well, like plastics. Any substance where the molecules are slightly positive or slightly negative will stick to water. Any substance where the molecules are all neutral, like oils, will actually repel water. | ||
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On May 14 2009 13:12 travis wrote: about the quote, what does that do as far as the functionality that water has for us? i mean water seems to be special in many ways, are any of those ways related to this? I honestly have no idea what it means, but I think it means nothing (that we'd care about) and isn't related to any of water's special properties at all. It probably means something to chemistry students, but you'd have to ask them. As far as I'm concerned, it's just an example of how stuff at the molecular level is always changing. It's like how the surface of ice is constantly changing back and forth between liquid water and solid ice (like that children's experiment where you put a string on an ice cube in the freezer and after a while the string ends up inside the ice cube). | ||
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
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