I never really understood the fun in trolling. I can understand why you would wanna argue over the internet, even if you fully realise how pointless this may be, especially when you're bored. But defending something that's so obviously wrong, I dunno.. I guess my conscience is too sensitive. Why don't you elaborate on the pleasures of trolling and allow us a glance into the psyche of a fierce troll, inc? Or should I say, bitch nigga
On December 25 2008 06:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Again, you can hate me all you like but in the end it is you who will be banned for being a pretentious uppity faggot.
I actually think you're pretty awesome, but I'll take that last point as a GG xD
You know more than I do that you can never prove anything 100% but there seems to be enough evidence in this thread to conclude that it's likely spanking is not the best way to raise your child (not the worst either). For those who can't be bothered to look back:
did you watch either of those videos or are you just quoting them?
i watched them. they prove nothing. they don't quote studies, they just re-iterate the same sentiments that incontrol has complained about: "studies show....".
I want the actual studies. I just wasted an hour of my time watching this horse shit. If the people in this thread are so convinced by their 'studies' surely they have one bookmarked that backs up their unwavering opinions.
The onus is not on those of us who think that spanking is fine. They have their own personal experience to prove that physical discipline can be successful. The onus is on those who are saying they are wrong, when the only evidence in this thread (their relative success as adults) would indicate otherwise.
For what it's worth: i do not believe in physcial discipline. (i was never exposed to physical discipline. infact, from my mom i never received discipline at all - she used reason instead of discipline to teach me right and wrong - and from my father i received moderate verbal abuse from for my entire life). It's from my personal experience between both methods of parenting that has made me intrinsically believe that reason alone can be used to be an effective parent.
But i'm not throwing around that 'studies have shown' that my opinion is right. I've never actually seen any studies on the matter at all. I've watched several videos of doctors who affirm my sentiments, and often they say "studies have shown" or "some evidence suggest", but as to actually seeing the study and its sample size and control factors and methods? Never.
I think that the best of parents are ones that don't use physical discipline. That being said, i am not convinced that spanking is bad or harmful, and if that is the case, i'd like to see the proof.
On December 25 2008 06:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And I am the one who is stupid? what?!?!?
I thought I just mentioned the big social problem the US has with science and public opinion colliding.
If you did it wasn't in the post where you called me very stupid and then said you overestimated the US. If somehow the next line was supposed to indicate a throwback to another post you made then you have a LOT to learn about posting.
It makes sense that you'd think that makes sense though.. cause you are fucking terrible at posting.
i watched them. they prove nothing. they don't quote studies, they just re-iterate the same sentiments that incontrol has complained about: "studies show....".
Incontrol complained about citing studies. Not about not citing them.
i watched them. they prove nothing. they don't quote studies, they just re-iterate the same sentiments that incontrol has complained about: "studies show....".
Incontrol complained about citing studies. Not about not citing them.
On December 25 2008 07:06 {88}iNcontroL wrote: WHAT?
NO
NO NOOOOOOOOOO
Mora was absolutely correct about what I was complaining about.
Shut the fuck up already. You are getting annoying. There's actually people that want to be responsible people that want to learn how human behavior develops because they want to be responsible parents. You have no respect for me. Fine. At least respect them.
On December 25 2008 06:08 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I don't care what studies have shown. That is a garbage dump of logic that people quote to make themselves feel established. I was raised by parents who spanked and I turned out absolutely fine.
I don't know how violent you are or how violent you would've turned out if not spanked, this proves nothing and it's silly to bring up 1 unresearched case to counter controlled research concerning multiple groups with test groups etc.
Our bodies use pain to tell us that something is wrong. Our parents are in charge of raising us with the notion that we need to learn right from wrong. Mild pain that causes no physical damage/trauma as a form of discipline is fine.
This isn't about trauma, this is about bringing up kids in a way that doesn't inspire them to be generally more violent, which all studies show. There is no study that contradicts this. And who are you to decide that it is fine? If there are peaceful alternatives that is proven to have better effects on children in later life why not employ those methods? And the point here was not that kids could not associate pain right or become traumatized, the point is that spanking inspires certain forms of antisocial behavior. We want kids to respond in a social way with eachother after all.
People are ignorant if they think emotional "abuse" is anything different. You scold a child, tell them they were wrong/did things poorly they are being subjected to the same level of abuse only in a different form. In fact it can be more/less traumatizing.. based on that childs tendencies.
What a bunch of bullshit, you're just like CM, you think you can explain psychological theory with a little observation and common sense, it's not that simple. There is definately a difference in the 'abuse', the way you teach your kids to do things will make the kid copy your behavior, if you are used to talking things out with your kid than the kid will be more likely to do this with his peers. The childs tendencies are not as genetic based as you think, the more you beat your kid, the more tendencies he has towards violence. All studies point towards this, I don't see what's wrong with pointing this out. Besides, as previously pointed out: When raising kids there needs to be an emphasis on positive reinforcement, and when you do have to punish your kid, do it without violence.
If you are parenting the child to assume pain is somehow connected to anything other than "I did something wrong" then you are doing it wrong. It should be clear why they are being punished so the lesson can be learned. That goes for any parenting though.. you raise a child to be verbally abusive due to an unclear understanding of why they are being lectured and you run into higher chances of that kid being a snot.
Unclear understanding of why they are being lectured? Im pretty sure the kid will easily be able to attribute a beating or lecture correctly. Although a lecture might be more effective than a beating when too much time has passed. Sure, the kid will remember the beating, but it won't be conditioned to actually stop the behavior, so the beating can often be ineffective. Like I've said before, roughly 90-95 % of our behavior is unconscious, beating needs to be on the spot for it to have any lasting effect, and this effect will still last shorter than positive reinforcement. Raising a kid to be verbally abusive has to do with how much the parents use cuss words, not how much lectures they give by the way.
You are looking at this too black and white, there are certain principles you can raise your kids by that improves the chances of it turning out well, it's exactly like poker: The better parent does more things right generally, but a kid can still turn out badly. Never use 'but X turned out fine' as an argument.
edit: It's amazing how much the clarity of your mind differs from 23 pm to 6 am.
I am baffled too. A few guys here really need to learn about the very concept of evidence. "Studies have shown that spanking your kids is retarded and harmful and will fuck up their minds and only morons and cavemen like Incontrol do this". Errrr. No. In fact you have to quote almost a whole study to describe it accurately. What population was studied, what was labeled "physical punishment", was was the age of the kid, what frequency of "beating" was starting to show tendencies to violence, etc... Your studies seem to show (more or less) that exposition to violence as a child tend to make you violent. Period. Saying that with every slap across the face you face the risk of turning your kid into a psycho is mind bogglingly stupid and nowhere near what these studies say. If I ever have kids, I want to avoid hitting them whenever I can. But who knows? And moreover, nothing has been said about emotional violence, which I think is a lot worse then physical violence : you can be a terrible dad without ever hitting your kid. And on a side note, like it or not, iNcontroL actually made a point. And a valid one.
On December 25 2008 07:26 Uraeus wrote: I am baffled too. A few guys here really need to learn about the very concept of evidence. "Studies have shown that spanking your kids is retarded and harmful and will fuck up their minds and only morons and cavemen like Incontrol do this". Errrr. No. In fact you have to quote almost a whole study to describe it accurately. What population was studied, what was labeled "physical punishment", was was the age of the kid, what frequency of "beating" was starting to show tendencies to violence, etc... Your studies seem to show (more or less) that exposition to violence as a child tend to make you violent. Period. Saying that with every slap across the face you face the risk of turning your kid into a psycho is mind bogglingly stupid and nowhere near what these studies say. If I ever have kids, I want to avoid hitting them whenever I can. But who knows? And moreover, nothing has been said about emotional violence, which I think is a lot worse then physical violence : you can be a terrible dad without ever hitting your kid. And on a side note, like it or not, iNcontroL actually made a point. And a valid one.
Who the hell is saying anything like
Studies have shown that spanking your kids is retarded and harmful and will fuck up their minds and only morons and cavemen like Incontrol do this"
in this thread? I have never seen anything taken out of context so badly, what a rediculous strawman.
There is nothing wrong with saying that "Studies have shown that corporal punishment generally leads to more violent behavior in children." You don't have to cite anything, have you ever written a scientific article? Technically all you have to do is quote the names of the authors and the year it was published in, which I think goes a little too far on forums, especially when you have incontrol assuming theories without citing anything whatsoever.
On December 25 2008 07:26 Uraeus wrote: I am baffled too. A few guys here really need to learn about the very concept of evidence. "Studies have shown that spanking your kids is retarded and harmful and will fuck up their minds and only morons and cavemen like Incontrol do this". Errrr. No. In fact you have to quote almost a whole study to describe it accurately. What population was studied, what was labeled "physical punishment", was was the age of the kid, what frequency of "beating" was starting to show tendencies to violence, etc... Your studies seem to show (more or less) that exposition to violence as a child tend to make you violent. Period. Saying that with every slap across the face you face the risk of turning your kid into a psycho is mind bogglingly stupid and nowhere near what these studies say. If I ever have kids, I want to avoid hitting them whenever I can. But who knows? And moreover, nothing has been said about emotional violence, which I think is a lot worse then physical violence : you can be a terrible dad without ever hitting your kid. And on a side note, like it or not, iNcontroL actually made a point. And a valid one.
You're pretty good at quoting shit nobody ever said lol. I don't think a single soul on this site would consider defending the statements you are attacking ? I think it's like this: it has been shown that, statistically, children are more likely to grow up to be violent when exposed to violence in their childhood, this includes slapping. I don't think a causal effect has been shown here. Apart from this, multiple studies have shown that punishment is not a good way of teaching stuff to a child. I can guarantee a google scholar search will pop up a lot of results on this one. God I'm so bored.
On December 25 2008 02:35 jjun212 wrote: All I was trying to say was you don't see me taking crack, going to rehab and all that shit like little rich kids who never got hit probably.
No, but getting popped in the noggin too many times seems to have damaged your ability to handle basic math
Honestly, I was just trying to make a laugh for all to enjoy. Because think about it, even if I really did miscalculate it, I could have easily edited it immediately and erased it all. Why didn't I? I thought it'd be funny for all to joke around with. I like TL-net to joke around with.
On top of what Frits said. It's just not studies but we now have some simple fundamental understanding on how cognitive process develop and they do very differently from what people have thought for thousands of years.
And when people mention studies then that doesn't mean it's some universal undisputed truth. If you actually go through 60+ studies all about 35 pages with heavy use of jargon and references of previous studies then sure there will always be contradictions. There will be a lot of them. And of course studies can always have statistical artifacts. But that's all besides the point. When someone says: "studies have shown" then that's just all there is too it. If you say: "It must be wrong, I turned out right." you show both lack of reasoning and ignorance of studies or scientific method in general. Still, one can make arguments against a study.
But also the the criticism that respected scientists say "evidence shows" and then don't actually provide sources in a popular science video or interview isn't fair criticism. These studies are all technical literature. How can you cram all that in a 5 minute interview?
Anyway, do you really think they are lying about this or all making it up? Sure, it's not up to academic standards. But that's because it isn't academic. And there needs to be a way to make sure they aren't. And there is. Normally sceptical laymen don't go through all the technical literature. If you are just too paranoid you will just not know. One generally goes by the knowledge that if you wanted you could study really hard, read it and confirm it to be true yourself because others have done that. That's how science works. And that's how we all use it everyday. And that's how scientists approach fields in which they aren't qualified. They can't even read the technical literature and appriciate all the nuances and interpret studies the way the consensus in that field claims it ought to be interpreted.
No one in this thread claimed that studies are never wrong. And studies played a very minor part all through this debate until people judged studies were somehow a weakness in the position of the science advocates in this debate.
[edit]
ooh lol I see this debate already went into what I was trying to preempt.
On December 25 2008 02:35 jjun212 wrote: All I was trying to say was you don't see me taking crack, going to rehab and all that shit like little rich kids who never got hit probably.
No, but getting popped in the noggin too many times seems to have damaged your ability to handle basic math
Honestly, I was just trying to make a laugh for all to enjoy. Because think about it, even if I really did miscalculate it, I could have easily edited it immediately and erased it all. Why didn't I? I thought it'd be funny for all to joke around with. I like TL-net to joke around with.
didn't read the last 6 pages but, where's the source for this studies?\ What I wanted to point out about this studies:
Many studies into the effects of beating your kids have proven to be highly unreliable because they are largely based on the researchers' interpretation of children's behavior. Those undertaken by anti-physical discipline advocates inevitably show that its counter-productive and maybe dangerous. Those undertaken by pro-physical discipline advocates show the opposite: itss safe, effective, and has no long term deleterious results.
Also we must note that the definition for "physical discipline" may be interpreted in many different ways and studied differently thus obtaning different results, this is instantly and most common associated with high degree (? dunno how to say it in english)beatings , which is not what those who are in favor of beating your children may agree or subscribe to. Unless they provide a clear definition of what they considered "Beating your kids" in their studies I don' think this studies will be reliable at all.
I wouldn't be able to stand myself if I'd ever give my children a spanking. What horrible person could ever do such a thing? A child should have enough respect for their parents, and for themselves, to ever do anything that could justify a spanking twice. Consciousness?
I have never had a spanking in all my life, though. No one I know has either.
From personal experience, mental torture works a lot better than physical torture.
Hitting your child does work on some children but not others. Sometimes it can make the child learn but sometimes it can make them violent when they grow up. I have a friend who is 16 ( same age as me) and he was often spanked until the 10. I often go to his house and he is one of the most mature human being I know. He seems to get along with his parents very well.
For me, I came to Canada from China in 2000. I went to elementary school and the students along with the teachers used to call me an idiot in my face. Of course I didn't know english that well so I hardly could understand what they were saying but I knew when they called me an idiot. Some kids used to say how I'm mentally retarded and laugh in my face. When I went home, my mom would also say how stupid I am and how I will never accomplish anything when I grow up. After going into highschool, I met some friends. By trying to prove that I'm not an idiot, I tried to find any possible way to show them that I am mentally superior. Now, I get straight As and am currently taking many enriched courses. I never reject anything that involves mental skills such as chess. I showed the whole school (especially those elementary idiots who said I'm a retard) that I'm not stupid by winning the school chess tournament without drawing or losing once. People who used to call me idiots now deeply respect me.
By having many people pressure me and calling me a freakin retard, I have learned my own ways to prove that I'm not. Maybe by telling your kids that they are idiots for the things they do, they will stop doing those things because they don't want to be an idiot.
Of course this is all personal experience and its only a opinion.
On December 25 2008 08:12 WindCalibur wrote: From personal experience, mental torture works a lot better than physical torture.
Hitting your child does work on some children but not others. Sometimes it can make the child learn but sometimes it can make them violent when they grow up. I have a friend who is 16 ( same age as me) and he was often spanked until the 10. I often go to his house and he is one of the most mature human being I know. He seems to get along with his parents very well.
For me, I came to Canada from China in 2000. I went to elementary school and the students along with the teachers used to call me an idiot in my face. Of course I didn't know english that well so I hardly could understand what they were saying but I knew when they called me an idiot. Some kids used to say how I'm mentally retarded and laugh in my face. When I went home, my mom would also say how stupid I am and how I will never accomplish anything when I grow up. After going into highschool, I met some friends. By trying to prove that I'm not an idiot, I tried to find any possible way to show them that I am mentally superior. Now, I get straight As and am currently taking many enriched courses. I never reject anything that involves mental skills such as chess. I showed the whole school (especially those elementary idiots who said I'm a retard) that I'm not stupid by winning the school chess tournament without drawing or losing once. People who used to call me idiots now deeply respect me.
By having many people pressure me and calling me a freakin retard, I have learned my own ways to prove that I'm not. Maybe by telling your kids that they are idiots for the things they do, they will stop doing those things because they don't want to be an idiot.
Of course this is all personal experience and its only a opinion.
That doesn't happen all the time though. It could have the complete opposite effect on another person. Instead of trying to prove themselves, another person may actually believe what was told to them.
EPT
what?!?!?
