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Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
E.g. that many americans agree about beating kids is a good way to give them discipline. I don't agree with that at all and also don't know anybody who would agree with that. Actually you are even outlawed in Germany when you are beating your kids. (Sadly there are still enough) So i'm interested what's the point of view all over the world about that topic. | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
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NuB.xE
United States131 Posts
 Bosnia ftl ( when it comes to child abuse ) | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
Please Clarify which one you mean or else this will get out of hand fast | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
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Eskii
Canada544 Posts
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blue_arrow
1971 Posts
go beat your kids, it's good for them: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=beat | ||
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vx70GTOJudgexv
United States3161 Posts
For example, my parents never "beat" me, but when my brother and I were out of line, a swat on the ass was our punishment. It worked fairly effective, we never did that stuff again. Over here, "beating" your kids, such as punching them in the face and openly striking them is looked down upon and illegal, just like almost everywhere else. | ||
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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
Proverbs 23:13-14 | ||
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Eskii
Canada544 Posts
18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. | ||
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Megalisk
United States6095 Posts
For example, a kid is being very stubborn, so you give it a little slap in the hand, it starts crying but soon stops, then it stops being stubborn. Anything more I believe is wrong. | ||
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shavingcream66
United States1219 Posts
negative reinforcement- "if you don't get straight A's, then you get [a punishment]" positive reinforcement- "if you do get straight A's, then you get [a reward] I used to get beat with sticks and my friends got beat with metal pipes (not too hard, doesn't shatter bones) edit: haha i remember how sometimes my cousin would come to school with bruises down her arms but we were told to say that we "fell down" if someone asked | ||
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Dantak
Czech Republic648 Posts
I HATE to see this new-age bringing up with no beating. Children sometimes just NEED some kind of shock to set them straight, to give them borders, mantinels, in which they can "manuevre". | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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Megalisk
United States6095 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:24 PetrBlaha wrote: I HATE to see this new-age bringing up with no beating. Children sometimes just NEED some kind of shock to set them straight, to give them borders, mantinels, in which they can "manuevre". This, a kid learns not to do something much faster by a small physical demonstration than being told "NO, BAD BOY/GIRL". | ||
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:23 shavingcream66 wrote: not to generalize or anything, but coming from an Asian household, I think its safe to say that almost all asian kids get physically disciplined. Negative reinforcement is preferred over positive reinforcement. Not being racist, just sharing my 2cents here negative reinforcement- "if you don't get straight A's, then you get [a punishment]" positive reinforcement- "if you do get straight A's, then you get [a reward] I used to get beat with sticks and my friends got beat with metal pipes (not too hard, doesn't shatter bones) edit: haha i remember how sometimes my cousin would come to school with bruises down her arms but we were told to say that we "fell down" if someone asked this | ||
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blue_arrow
1971 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:27 Physician wrote: define beating.. i don't think you can beat a girl... or can you? | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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SonuvBob
Aiur21549 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:27 Physician wrote: define beating.. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
Coming from a Caucasian household I can reiterate that the positive reinforcement doesn't work. My dad always offered me 5 bucks for every A or whatever. I didn't care either way. Now if he had beaten me when I got bad grades, well then maybe I would have cared to cheat more often and get an A. | ||
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ilistis
United States828 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:23 shavingcream66 wrote: not to generalize or anything, but coming from an Asian household, I think its safe to say that almost all asian kids get physically disciplined. Negative reinforcement is preferred over positive reinforcement. Not being racist, just sharing my 2cents here negative reinforcement- "if you don't get straight A's, then you get [a punishment]" positive reinforcement- "if you do get straight A's, then you get [a reward] I used to get beat with sticks and my friends got beat with metal pipes (not too hard, doesn't shatter bones) edit: haha i remember how sometimes my cousin would come to school with bruises down her arms but we were told to say that we "fell down" if someone asked Lol, that's what my parents said to me when I was younger. Come to think of it, I've avoided some deep shit because of that. Sure it hurts but it sets you straight. My little cousin actually told on my aunt. Stupid kid. | ||
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koreakool
United States334 Posts
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ilistis
United States828 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:34 CharlieMurphy wrote: Coming from a Caucasian household I can reiterate that the positive reinforcement doesn't work. My dad always offered me 5 bucks for every A or whatever. I didn't care either way. Now if he had beaten me when I got bad grades, well then maybe I would have cared to cheat more often and get an A. How about both? If you get that A, an award, if you don't, a beating. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
I was beaten as a child, never so that it hurt me more than for say a half hour, but it was very effective. There is a line, in fact a thick one, between beatings and abuse. | ||
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shavingcream66
United States1219 Posts
Coming from a Caucasian household I can reiterate that the positive reinforcement doesn't work. My dad always offered me 5 bucks for every A or whatever. I didn't care either way. Now if he had beaten me when I got bad grades, well then maybe I would have cared to cheat more often and get an A. LOL | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:34 CharlieMurphy wrote: Coming from a Caucasian household I can reiterate that the positive reinforcement doesn't work. My dad always offered me 5 bucks for every A or whatever. I didn't care either way. Now if he had beaten me when I got bad grades, well then maybe I would have cared to cheat more often and get an A. Although punishment is twice as effective as rewards, rewards work in the long run. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
yea, school is a joke. Everyone cheats. Its really sad, maybe the teachers should beat kids when they get caught. | ||
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Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
ok now on a serious note, i come from a mexican household and yes i had physical discipline upon me if i did anything bad, constantly or bad enough of course and it worked. i personally say this is favorable but going to the extreme of beating a child is not a good idea. my 2 cents, either extreme is bad | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
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brjdrb
United States577 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:43 Frits wrote: Although punishment is twice as effective as rewards, rewards work in the long run. the problem with that is that most children are more concerned with immediate consequences. telling a child that if they do well in school, they'll get money at the end of the semester won't work. telling a child to do their homework so that they can go out for the night / weekend is a much more effective method, b/c it has more immediate consequences | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:45 Frits wrote: Just to be clear, beatings are NEVER justified when raising kids, there's always a non violent solution, beating your kids only makes up for your terrible parenting skills. no, beat your kids when they are being little shits in public. If you don't they will abuse the stigma pf societies view to control you. If you only operate on their level with mental discipline they see this and play mind games, show them how you don't take that shit and smack them. | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:14 Eskii wrote: Physical discipline is an entirely fine way to deal with your kids. agreed, as long as they don't have bruises or anything like that i got beaten pretty bad when I was a kid when i was behaving like a little punk, and im thankful for that believe it or not. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
Either it will control them or it won't, but if it succeeds, your children will grow up spineless cowards and if it fails, your children will grow up seething with resentment. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
![[image loading]](http://theworstpageintheuniverse.com/images/parent_web1.jpg) | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:45 xMiragex wrote: so this is how jaedong got his 400+ apm..."your apm is too low" *smack* Jaedong plays for Lecaf, not old KTF. | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:32 CharlieMurphy wrote: If you don't beat your kids, they will be faggots. true story. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:50 MoltkeWarding wrote: Beating your children is a bad control mechanism. Either it will control them or it won't, but if it succeeds, your children will grow up spineless cowards and if it fails, your children will grow up seething with resentment. a choke chain on a dog works because the dog gets hurt when it tries to not listen or run out of his bounds. Eventually the dog (depending on how smart) will learn to listen and obey commands associated with the pain. Then you can remove the choke chain and use a regular leash. PS- I am not a spineless coward, nor do I resent my parents. | ||
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hixhix
1156 Posts
Oh, his parents didnt beat him at all ? | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:48 CharlieMurphy wrote: no, beat your kids when they are being little shits in public. If you don't they will abuse the stigma pf societies view to control you. If you only operate on their level with mental discipline they see this and play mind games, show them how you don't take that shit and smack them. This is classic, you educating me on psychology. I was never beaten (okay maybe a little but that was only during a period of 1 year or so, and it definately had no positive effects, didnt stop any behavior in the long run, etc) and was never a little shit in public because I was raised well. Other people get beaten a lot and are little shits in public, mostly because of their terrible upbringing. And little kids don't play mind games, they are too stupid for that lol. With kids you just need to give rewards and motivate them for good things, even a nice word counts. When you get home and beat the kids there is already too much time passed anyway for it to have any effect. You need to raise your kids right from the start, and beating them is not going to discourage them from acting like shits, it only encourages violent behavior and turn him into a loser. | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:50 MoltkeWarding wrote: Beating your children is a bad control mechanism. Either it will control them or it won't, but if it succeeds, your children will grow up spineless cowards and if it fails, your children will grow up seething with resentment. i think thats a misconception, a common one. There are certain boundaries and rules that parents must respect when using physical discipline, and if used correctly and not beating your kids senseless , this method can be a very effective way for discipline. | ||
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mmgoose
769 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
You can't always blame the parents for shitty kids. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:50 MoltkeWarding wrote: Beating your children is a bad control mechanism. Either it will control them or it won't, but if it succeeds, your children will grow up spineless cowards and if it fails, your children will grow up seething with resentment. But beating women is ok. Am i right? | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:59 Luddite wrote: Beatings are a horrible way of raising a child, they don't even work well on dogs. Basically what you teach your kid is, "might makes right". They'll grow up in fear of their parents, and take it out on any kid smaller than them. There's sooooo many ways to teach a kid without physically abusing them. I never went out beating up other kids. Where do you get this nonsense? | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
i don't think that physical discipline is nearly as bad as many people make it out to be. Getting a smack on the ass or whatever can often bring kids back to reality quickly. that being said, if you were to compare two sets of parents, one set that brought up a child successfully with physical discipline, and another who brought one up equally as successfully without physical discipline, it's pretty clear who the superior parents are. This is true in most situations. If you compare a boss/teacher/mentor who uses negative reinforcement and ones who use positive reinforcement, a pretty clear distinction can be made that while the former [may be] effective, the latter is awe-inspiring. | ||
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NatsuTerran
United States364 Posts
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:00 CharlieMurphy wrote: I never went out beating up other kids. Where do you get this nonsense? from psychological studies which show a far greater rate of bullying in kids that were beaten as a child. That's not to say that every kid does it, but it certainly increases the chance that they will. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:58 CharlieMurphy wrote: No, you smack them on the spot and tell that that no one wants to hear their whining. If they keep whining you threaten to take them to the car and spank them further. If that doesn't work then you beat them. You can't always blame the parents for shitty kids. No you just need to ignore it, beating your kids out of frustration isn't gonna do anything but turn him into the same person. When you ignore your kid when he cries and whines he will become more independant by himself, while you're just acknowledging him by beating him. It's not that hard to ignore, you just need some restraint and patience, I think those qualities are a lot more worthwhile in society than violence. | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:50 MoltkeWarding wrote: Before 40 years ago, everyone got beat. Everywhere. Are you fucking telling me every single person on this planet, bar those born [and even then] from the 80's onward are spineless cowards or hate their parents?Beating your children is a bad control mechanism. Either it will control them or it won't, but if it succeeds, your children will grow up spineless cowards and if it fails, your children will grow up seething with resentment. wtf | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:03 Frits wrote: No you just need to ignore it, beating your kids out of frustration isn't gonna do anything but turn him into the same person. When you ignore your kid when he cries and whines he will become more independant by himself, while you're just acknowledging him by beating him. It's not that hard to ignore, you just need some restraint and patience, I think those qualities are a lot more worthwhile in society than violence. you can't very well walk around ignoring a whining child or a screaming little shit throwing a fit for a toy. You need to discipline him on the spot, no words will shut this child up. Situation demands physical discipline. Who said anything about frustration. There is a time and place for violence, if you wanna call it that. | ||
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white_box921
United Kingdom967 Posts
and yea, I did end up bullying smaller kid at school. nothing wrong with that, there has to be some who bully, and some who takes it. And I have also learnt how to not piss off the people bigger than me (i.e. my parents) | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:08 CharlieMurphy wrote: you can't very well walk around ignoring a whining child or a screaming little shit throwing a fit for a toy. You need to discipline him on the spot, no words will shut this child up. Situation demands physical discipline. Why the hell not? It's gonna run out of energy sometime. The situation does not demand physical discipline at all. | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
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[GiTM]-Ace
United States4935 Posts
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:11 Frits wrote: Why the hell not? It's gonna run out of energy sometime. The situation does not demand physical discipline at all. People like you should be smacked for not smacking your kids. I dont want to hear the little shits whining in public. Please learn to respect others. Letting your kid whine for an hour in public until it is too tired to whine is so wrong. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:15 Mastermind wrote: People like you should be smacked for not smacking your kids. I dont want to hear the little shits whining in public. Please learn to respect others. Letting your kid whine for an hour in public until it is too tired to whine is so wrong. Except I was raised without beating and I always behaved well in public. People like me? lol I have way more insight in the raising of children than most. And if you apply this technique at home your kid won't even act like this in public anyway, people who keep acknowledging their kids crying at an older age are keeping them too dependant for no reason. | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:13 Mastermind wrote: You shouldnt beat your kids, but smacking them once or twice is fine. Dont use excessive force. Just enough so they wont want to repeat their actions. If the kid is being a smart ass, an open palmed light smack to the back of the head is called for. For other things, a light spanking. If you leave a mark, you did it to hard. If they still hurt 10 minutes later, you did it to hard. It should just be a short lasting sensation to smarten them up. why the head? why not the bum, or the arm, or anywhere else? Honestly, if someone hit me at my age now to get my attention, and they did so by hitting me on the arm, bum, leg, or whatever, they would get my attention and i wouldn't give a damn. If someone hit me in the back of my head to get my attention, i'd fucking punch them in the face. | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:17 Frits wrote: People like you should be smacked for not smacking your kids. I dont want to hear the little shits whining in public. Please learn to respect others. Letting your kid whine for an hour in public until it is too tired to whine is so wrong. Except I was raised without beating and I always behaved well in public. People like me? lol I have way more insight in the raising of children than most.[/QUOTE] Why do you feel this way? Most people credit themselves with knowing how to raise children better than the average, often for a plethora of good and bad reasons. I'm curious what you feel has given you such insight (sincerely curious - is it from school? discussion on the subject? lessons handed down from parents?). | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:22 Mora wrote: Why do you feel this way? Most people credit themselves with knowing how to raise children better than the average, often for a plethora of good and bad reasons. I'm curious what you feel has given you such insight (sincerely curious - is it from school? discussion on the subject? lessons handed down from parents?). lol no nothing like that I study psychology at the university of leiden | ||
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enthusiast
United States90 Posts
It seems like there's been a lot of research done into this subject. Why is no one using it? This thread would be totally rad man dude if people used sources. | ||
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Hittegods
Stockholm4641 Posts
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
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SaveYourSavior
United States1071 Posts
This could work if the parents are cock blocks, but if not, beating helps only partially. If you simply talk to the children reasonably when they are still young and not as corrupted, theres a far greater chance that this will work, especially if you make them feel guilty without getting mad or violent | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14893 Posts
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L!MP
Australia2067 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:28 AlphaxOmega wrote: This, a kid learns not to do something much faster by a small physical demonstration than being told "NO, BAD BOY/GIRL". i take it you've never seen the TV show "super nanny." she demonstrates, with relative ease i might add, how easy it is to discipline a child without violence. give 1 warning for bad behaviour and if they persist, put the child aside for a certain period of time and ignore them (unless they move away from that spot). after the time-out explain to them what they did wrong directly, get an apology, show them some love and move on. while it is true that physical disciplining is more immediate in its effectiveness and hence why people do it at all, it is not effective in the long term at all. on the contrary, it causes far more problems. it promotes further behavioural problems and festers hatred towards the abuser. not only that but the child then sees violence as an appropriate way to then treat other people, such as their peers. | ||
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Sadist
United States7228 Posts
Seriously. Youve all seen it, the little kid stealing the car =[ Obviously spanking children isnt IDEAL, but some motherfuckers need it. | ||
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Ichigo1234551
United States649 Posts
if you do then beat ur kids with love act like your crying when you hit them and say this hurt me more than you BAM | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:35 Sadist wrote: What do you do with this kid? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhs8hHvolM0 Seriously. Youve all seen it, the little kid stealing the car =[ Obviously spanking children isnt IDEAL, but some motherfuckers need it. .......lol | ||
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sith
United States2474 Posts
If you kid screws up pretty bad i think it's definitely called for a smack on the butt or slap on the head or something to keep him in line. But for most stuff (didn't do homework or something) just a strong talking to/yelling at is whats needed. | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:35 Sadist wrote: What do you do with this kid? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhs8hHvolM0 Seriously. Youve all seen it, the little kid stealing the car =[ Obviously spanking children isnt IDEAL, but some motherfuckers need it. that kid rocks wtf | ||
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Sadist
United States7228 Posts
I havent seen this one He FOR REAL needs a beating after being on TV a SECOND time. Hitting his grandma?? She has to sleep with her car keys, ROFL. | ||
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Hittegods
Stockholm4641 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:35 Ichigo1234551 wrote: dont beat up ur kids man if you do then beat ur kids with love act like your crying when you hit them and say this hurt me more than you BAM Then do the same with your wife, and live happily ever after. | ||
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thoraxe
United States1449 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:10 Keniji wrote: When my brother came back from US for christmas (he's living in US fo 2 years now) he told me that when he's talking about several things with his american friends, he is still surprised how often they are really conservative from european point of view. E.g. that many americans agree about beating kids is a good way to give them discipline. I don't agree with that at all and also don't know anybody who would agree with that. Actually you are even outlawed in Germany when you are beating your kids. (Sadly there are still enough) So i'm interested what's the point of view all over the world about that topic. You obviously don't know any Mexicans. | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:35 Sadist wrote: What do you do with this kid? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhs8hHvolM0 Seriously. Youve all seen it, the little kid stealing the car =[ Obviously spanking children isnt IDEAL, but some motherfuckers need it. I think that kid was pampered way too much when he was younger, any kid with a normal upbringing can't be THAT retarded. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:35 Sadist wrote: What do you do with this kid? + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhs8hHvolM0 Seriously. Youve all seen it, the little kid stealing the car =[ Obviously spanking children isnt IDEAL, but some motherfuckers need it. It's pretty obvious that the kid is living with it's grandmom and has no parents close to him, that's different. Obviously 1 grandma isn't going to have that much influence on the kid when he's hanging out with peers that already smoke etc. Western kids aren't influenced by their parents that much anyway, hitting is not gonna do shit here most likely. Ofcourse the kid needs to be disciplined but what that kid needs is a lot of attention and parents, not a beating. Great idea, making a kid who's already fucking up his life extra violent. And so many here see beating as the solution to dealing with kids. You guys are forgetting that if you need to beat your kids you are already failing pretty hard at raising a kid. There is a reason that kids who misbehave are beaten all the time and there is never really any progress while there are kids who aren't beaten and never misbehave. This proves that the shaping of a child's behavior doesn't require physical discipline, while physical discipline has been proven to make kids more violent. | ||
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InToTheWannaB
United States4770 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:27 Frits wrote: lol no nothing like that I study psychology at the university of leiden lol I'm not saying this will happen to you or anything. However my aunt is a child psychologist. She was actually the head of social services for a city in Westchester at one point. She had two kids and raised them without ever hitting them. Well her oldist is a goodie goodie. The youngist was however a HELL RAISER!!! So from my limited bases with psychologist they are only batting 50% in the child raising department. I'm not sure a deep understanding of psychology really helps as a parent. I guess it can't hurt but its not a cure all thats for sure. | ||
AltaiR_
Korea (South)922 Posts
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L!MP
Australia2067 Posts
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Frits
11782 Posts
There are always things you can't control. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:50 L!MP wrote: Sadist and Equinox_kr did you actually watch the second video in full? how can you say he needs a beating when it's evident he was initially reared in an abusive environment. the grandmother clearly says that she thinks his behaviour is a result of his parents negative behaviour: "all he's ever seen was his parents do physical, abusive and verbal things and i don't want him to continue in this direction so i'm doing the best i can to get him the help." Yeah this was obvious from watching video 1, the kid isn't living with his parents helloooooo. Can't believe equinox and sadist are so quick to judge a kid like that. | ||
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Sadist
United States7228 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:52 Frits wrote: Yeah this was obvious from watching video 1, the kid isn't living with his parents helloooooo. Can't believe equinox and sadist are so quick to judge a kid like that. he needs to stop playing with his little bastard friends Kids arent usually bad on their own, its when they get in groups ;D | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:15 Mastermind wrote: People like you should be smacked for not smacking your kids. I dont want to hear the little shits whining in public. Please learn to respect others. Letting your kid whine for an hour in public until it is too tired to whine is so wrong. oh you are so wrong! if your kids whine in public clinics or a libararies you should: 1. Ignore him, psycological pressure> phyisical, I find it in a book thanks to yahoo answers. 2. Let him hit the "climax" of his whining, he'll probably get tired or give up eventually. and condede his argument, THATS when you should start the conversation with him. 3. Talk about what he did wrong, or potentially could had, he'll feel the guilt and will beg for forgiveness, after all children are known for being very consequent of their actions in the middle of their tantrums,and for rationalizing them if you talk to them nicely. 4. If he slaps you, get out your laptop immediately and use your home-made power point presentations to teach him about respect and give show him family values 5. If this still doesn't work, give him a TIME-OUT, where you hypothetically freeze your child's time continuum preferibly in a corner or your car, where he could not do anything except masturbate to local girls on the passenger seat. or if you don't have time for this bs 1. Punch him in the teeth. | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
Clearly none of you know how parenting works, nor understand the negative outcomes of beating your children. I would try to convince you that it is a bad thing and there are many positive alternative parenting methods, however I feel that I would be arguing with a brick wall, so I'm not going to waste my time. If you are interested in other methods, go read up on any book or article that deals with proper parenting. | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:32 CharlieMurphy wrote: If you don't beat your kids, they will be faggots. And CharlieMurphy, that is by far the dumbest and ignorant comment I have ever read on this site. Read a book. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
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29 fps
United States5724 Posts
most asian kids have experienced this. sometimes a kid deserves it. in public wouldn't be good, though, as it is humiliating for both the parent and the child. As long as it's not out of line, like bloody cuts or black eyes, then a smack once in a while can keep kids in line. ever watch that dave chapelle clip on swapping wives? "man, time out is SWEET!" time outs don't work all the time. neither does smacking, but it still needs to be done. probably a balance of the two would be good (or a good scolding/talk instead of time out [basically non-violent methods]. kids need to know the boundaries. verbal warning first. then if they still don't get it, then a smack should be justified. | ||
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Underwhelmed
United States207 Posts
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Archaic
United States4024 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:14 blue_arrow wrote: damn liberal europeans go beat your kids, it's good for them: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=beat I was just about to link this. | ||
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Kennelie
United States2296 Posts
What I think is that a pouting in the butt is a lesson learned...Now beating is a different story. I was brought up in the southern states and a quick strike to the butt(or pinching or kick or even a fuckin thump to the head) was something to be recognized with. Don't act up and don't get the shock of life slapped out of you. But beating is a whole different subject compared to a quick lesson..I'll read the rest of this when I don't got better things to do with my time. | ||
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:23 shavingcream66 wrote: not to generalize or anything, but coming from an Asian household, I think its safe to say that almost all asian kids get physically disciplined. Negative reinforcement is preferred over positive reinforcement. Not being racist, just sharing my 2cents here negative reinforcement- "if you don't get straight A's, then you get [a punishment]" positive reinforcement- "if you do get straight A's, then you get [a reward] I used to get beat with sticks and my friends got beat with metal pipes (not too hard, doesn't shatter bones) edit: haha i remember how sometimes my cousin would come to school with bruises down her arms but we were told to say that we "fell down" if someone asked It's better to combine them. If you get straight As, you get a reward. If you don't, you get punished. =D | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:56 Frits wrote: This is classic, you educating me on psychology. I was never beaten (okay maybe a little but that was only during a period of 1 year or so, and it definately had no positive effects, didnt stop any behavior in the long run, etc) and was never a little shit in public because I was raised well. Other people get beaten a lot and are little shits in public, mostly because of their terrible upbringing. And little kids don't play mind games, they are too stupid for that lol. With kids you just need to give rewards and motivate them for good things, even a nice word counts. When you get home and beat the kids there is already too much time passed anyway for it to have any effect. You need to raise your kids right from the start, and beating them is not going to discourage them from acting like shits, it only encourages violent behavior and turn him into a loser. Let me speak from experience when I say that the time delay between doing something fucking stupid as a kid and getting hit a few hours later when you're at home doesn't make you forget what you did. The whole damn time, I'm scared shitless and thinking about it the whole time. I'm regretting it, and when my parents do hit me, they make me say my mistakes so I know what I'm getting punished for. After the spanking, they'll give me a hug, tell me they love me, and then take care of me. In theory, it looks as if it will only confuse a child, but you know when you are being loved and when you deserved it. It takes good parenting to make sure the child understands both sides to this. To say spanking is never good is ignorant. There are some kids that it definitely helps with. And to say spanking is always necessary is also ignorant. When it comes down to it, its just overall good parenting that will result in good children, and its the parents call how to deal with their children properly. Hopefully they are smart enough to know how to deal with it instead of using a spanking as a way of "getting back" at the kid and releasing their frustrations, as the child definitely knows when this is happening. The parent needs to have his/her head screwed on properly first before doing any hitting. But then again, the parent needs to have his life together to properly raise a good kid most of the time anyways, or the kid will just go the way of the parent. | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:40 Sadist wrote: ROFL I havent seen this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mw06DZbme8&NR=1 He FOR REAL needs a beating after being on TV a SECOND time. Hitting his grandma?? She has to sleep with her car keys, ROFL. Did she say "walmark"?  | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:46 Equinox_kr wrote: I think that kid was pampered way too much when he was younger, any kid with a normal upbringing can't be THAT retarded. Seriously, take a year and do Teach for America in the inner cities. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 24 2008 12:32 Slaughter)BiO wrote: Oh and Frits and Co who are against beating, the tone of your posts are probably HIGHLY offensive considering your basically saying the majority of the people here have shitty parents. Just because you currently studying psych does not give you some hardcore insider info on parenting and to make judgments about parents that do use physical discipline. Every child is different and will respond different to the environment they are raised in. First of all, yes it does. And I only mentioned it because someone asked me, I am not basing my argument on that fact at all. And I am pointing out why not beating your kids is a better way of raising your children, I am using sensible arguments unlike people like CM who are basing their information on nothing. I am not judging anyone, unless someone here chooses to hit your kids while knowing the information mentioned here. And no shit that every child is different, that doesn't change the fact that there are certain things that influence every child in the same way, just in different doses. Hitting kids is something that has been proven to inspire significantly more violence in kids, while there are plenty of peaceful alternatives. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 24 2008 12:57 Klogon wrote: Let me speak from experience when I say that the time delay between doing something fucking stupid as a kid and getting hit a few hours later when you're at home doesn't make you forget what you did. The whole damn time, I'm scared shitless and thinking about it the whole time. I'm regretting it, and when my parents do hit me, they make me say my mistakes so I know what I'm getting punished for. After the spanking, they'll give me a hug, tell me they love me, and then take care of me. In theory, it looks as if it will only confuse a child, but you know when you are being loved and when you deserved it. It takes good parenting to make sure the child understands both sides to this. To say spanking is never good is ignorant. There are some kids that it definitely helps with. And to say spanking is always necessary is also ignorant. When it comes down to it, its just overall good parenting that will result in good children, and its the parents call how to deal with their children properly. Hopefully they are smart enough to know how to deal with it instead of using a spanking as a way of "getting back" at the kid and releasing their frustrations, as the child definitely knows when this is happening. The parent needs to have his/her head screwed on properly first before doing any hitting. But then again, the parent needs to have his life together to properly raise a good kid most of the time anyways, or the kid will just go the way of the parent. Look, I am not saying that hitting your kid once in awhile makes you a terrible parent by definition. I am saying that it can always be avoided. You are making it sound as if I think that hitting kids is always bad and will fuck a kid up, ofcourse a kid can handle a little spanking. But human behavior is 95% unconscious, if a parent is used to beating his kid everytime it does something wrong, it will always go for for the easy way. That's the bigger picture here. My message is that people generally need to be more focussed on dealing with their kids more peacefully. Besides, think about it. You can't make a policy to hit your kids sometimes for stuff and other times try to talk it out. You either have a general policy to avoid hitting your kids or not. That doesn't mean there won't ever be any exceptions. | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
Take a step back from the psychological thinking and think instead of it in an economics model. You, the parent, are the government. The kid is the people. In order to best serve the people, you need to set rules. Some people (kids) cross a line that shouldn't be crossed, so negative reinforcement must unfortunately be there in the form of prisons (and in our case, spankings). They are positively reinforced when working hard by a good, steady income. Each child has their own utility functions (or in non-econ lingo, ways of deriving pleasure). And everything has a price to it, may it be an price of time of leisure or cash, or even comfort. By letting the kid know that there is the possibility of negative reinforcement implicitly increases the price of doing such a bad action. For if the personal utility the child gets from doing the bad is greater than the utility of your reward, he'll choose the bad everytime. There are two ways to decrease this gap: increase the price of him doing such activity with negative reinforcement or to increase the reward significantly. Sometimes, both are needed. You can even bring in political science theory into this. Take the stance US takes on Taiwan. The fact that we will not rule out using extreme force in the chance that China gets really aggressive with Taiwan DETERS any action significantly from China to take over Taiwan. Sure, we didn't explicitly say it, but we didn't rule it out. Once the child knows you've ruled out physical punishment, some children may be more bold in what they do because the price they pay is significantly less for such actions. Sure, we can positively reinforce China with economic incentives as the trade will benefit them greatly, but the negative reinforcement helps a lot in keeping them in line. EDIT: The main point is that every child is different. So taking the government example, just because you never murdered anybody doesn't mean we don't need a prison system and life-sentences for people who do. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
fuck is it 5:30 am already I really need to sleep lol | ||
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Hippopotamus
1914 Posts
It seems the arguments against corporal punishment are: 1. Buttspanking = sexual. Thankfully this one hasn't shown up yet in this thread. 2. Corporal punishment is a model for violent behavior. 3. Corporal punishment is ineffective. I'm just going to throw out the first argument because it's idiotic. There's no proof for this. The psychologist who made this argument just speculated on it one century ago: it's time to let go of this kind of bullshit. Second argument seems plausible, but I find it amusing that these same people would elsewhere argue against strict game and television control. In fact, I think our common experience shows us that just as we don't take Starcraft as a model for our behavior, we do not take corporal punishment as a model for our behavior. Studies haven't found Chinese people to be more aggressive although in Chinese culture corporal punishment is widely used. Now some would claim that Chinese children who were never physically punished were less aggressive, but this ignores the fact that more aggressive children tend to get punished more. In general, if you're opposed to the lunatics who want children shielded from all violence in games, then you should oppose arguments against corporal punishment as cause of aggression. Third argument is... true. BUT, this applies to the same extent to all punishment. All punishment, physical or not, just teaches "you shouldn't have done that". When kids are small, they don't get it at all. Whether it's a time out or a slap, all that punishment accomplishes is just stopping. It hardly prevents future misbehavior in little kids. When they grow up, then they understand the consequences and understand that punishment teaches "don't do this in future" but then it's a matter of the cost-benefit analysis. In the cost-benefit analysis spanking and losing your "privileges" both stand as just risk variables unconsciously weighed against the possible reward of misbehavior (after all, why misbehave if not for a perceived reward?). If you actually want to influence behavior, the only reliable way to do it is by building up positive behavior. Not understanding this is basically the story of the failure of American society. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On December 24 2008 13:04 Frits wrote: Hitting kids is something that has been proven to inspire significantly more violence in kids, while there are plenty of peaceful alternatives. proof plox | ||
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SingletonWilliam
United States664 Posts
I was hit, and that means slapped in the face one or more times, for doing anything bad. I especially remember getting slapped every time I burped and I haven't burped out loud in 5ish years. All it did was give me a worse attitude. I guess that was how my Mom tried to fill in the father role I didn't have because it was the same for her growing up. I'm not sure how I'm going to raise my kids, I've never seen an alternative style. But I don't think beating your kids is a good idea. It just gave me a worse attitude, and when I turned 11/12 getting slapped did nothing more than make me laugh. I couldn't help but crack up for some reason. It pissed my Mom off enough for her to try to find new ways to keep me in line, like Indian rug burns, but after a week of whatever new punishment she came up with I just smiled and laughed at her. I still laugh when I get slapped these days, and I'm not sure if its a conditioned response or if its just funny. I think it changes from person to person, but I don't want my kids to turn out like me and I don't want myself to turn out like my parents. I feel there needs to be an authority figure, but I don't know if violence is gonna do it. Getting hit as a kid just gave me the impression that violence was ok and I got into fights for the first 12 years of my life before I got my head on straight. Its also weird how I feel I might have been mistreated, but there are still people who got it exponentially worse than me. Shit sucks. | ||
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kdog3683
United States916 Posts
I never really got hit @ all though. Mostly, my dad would scream / throw stuff or grab my ear. When I was little, I had this fluffy white bear about 3 feet high I would sleep with. If i did somthing bad, he would beat the bear with a belt and I would cry | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
Title: Spanking by parents and subsequent antisocial behavior of children Author(s): Straus MA, Sugarman DB, GilesSims J Source: ARCHIVES OF PEDIATRICS & ADOLESCENT MEDICINE Volume: 151 Issue: 8 Pages: 761-767 Published: AUG 1997 Times Cited: 87 Sadly the fulltext article is not available for download for some gay reason and I live 2.5 hours from my faculty. :p Not gonna look up more right now because dealing with my uni's online library is such a huge pain in the ass at night. | ||
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SIUnit
China288 Posts
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Vharox
United States1037 Posts
On December 24 2008 14:20 kdog3683 wrote: When I was little, I had this fluffy white bear about 3 feet high I would sleep with. If i did somthing bad, he would beat the bear with a belt and I would cry Haha awww | ||
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
Use the search function plz! | ||
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Whyzguy
Canada263 Posts
I've been beat, just not beat up. | ||
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vx70GTOJudgexv
United States3161 Posts
Let me start off by saying, I've never raised my own child. But as I said, if I was out of line, I got a smack on the ass. Later, my parents moved to grounding me because it was more long term, but I still (at 18) get hit for certain things, i.e, talking back to my parents, disrespecting family, and the like. I'm from a caucasian family in New York. I did things that were deserving of the punishment because I was curious, not because my parents didn't raise me properly. First of all, I am the farthest thing from a pussy. The spineless pussies I know are the ones who all gasped with their parents when I got a swat in the back of the head because I made a wise remark about my fathers intelligence when I was moving in to my dorm. Second, I'd hold my parents as some of the BEST parents I know. No, they aren't perfect, and they will be the first to admit it. But neither my brother or I are out on the streets hitting up drug dealers and partying out of control every night. Do we enjoy ourselves? Yes, when the time is right, I'll be the first in line for shots of whiskey. But we know how to act about it and know to control ourselves. Compare that to the parents who tried the "non-physical" approach next door. The oldest is in jail, the middle died in a gang-fight and the youngest is expelled. I hung out with these kids all the time until I was about 16, so blame can't be placed on "the crowd" that they hung out with entirely. Yes, they had their own friends and so did I, but more often than not, they were chilling with me in the back yard playing football or shooting hoops. I'm not saying beating is right for everyone. It's a form of discipline I will use, and that's my preference. But for all the high-on-their-horse so-called "experts" who are telling people they had shitty parents and that they are spineless for being beaten...  | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
Also, the whole principle behind it is based on a fundamentally flawed understanding of how behavior is learned. This all has been known for like 40 years. And that's why it's illegal in modern civilized countries. The US just has a poor record here and is far away from modern civilized countries. Like it never ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child as basically the only country in the world because the other country that hasn't recognised these children rights is Somalia and it probably would have if it actually had a government that could do so. There's a series of 15 videos on youtube. First one You aren't allowed to hit people unless they are children? Makes no sense. Not to mention it's even more harmful to children because you are teaching children you can get your way or solve problems by inflicting pain unto others since children are still developing their morality. And parents play a major role here so parents hitting their own children is even worse than hitting some random child which is worse than hitting some random person. Not only does our understanding of learning and development of the mind and personality of children suggest it's very very bad. But statistics clearly show very unsettling relations between corporal punishment of children and then the future criminal and violent behavior of this person as an adult. So it's double fold. We can make predictions and when we test them they turn out to be correct. | ||
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ktp
United States797 Posts
Conclusion: Don't have kids. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17727 Posts
On December 24 2008 14:20 kdog3683 wrote: I have azn parents as well who utilize negative reinforcement. I never really got hit @ all though. Mostly, my dad would scream / throw stuff or grab my ear. When I was little, I had this fluffy white bear about 3 feet high I would sleep with. If i did somthing bad, he would beat the bear with a belt and I would cry poor poor bear | ||
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
Hell, there isn't even a theory that ever existed in the whole field of psychology that supports your view. It's not just that inflicting pain is a bad form of punishment because it teaching violence. The whole idea of teaching through reward and punishment is wrong. | ||
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
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Alizee-
United States845 Posts
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
On December 24 2008 19:05 BlackStar wrote: IzzyCraft both science and statistical studies show you are wrong. Hell, all the principles of behavioral science reject the whole idea. Hell, there isn't even a theory that ever existed in the whole field of psychology that supports your view. Simple logic =p if you are beat enough that you are afraid of getting beat. Then fear is your primary thought meaning once you go past that stage then every time you are lecture etc on something wrong you don't care because all your thinking is I'm not getting hit. Simply put if you have a man with a shotgun in your face one day and shot you in the legs and sometime down the road you see that man what do you think omfg he gonna shoot me. You don't give a crap to what he's really doing etc. The title of the tread is BEATING kids not spanking. Really the only flaw to beating kids is that you have to continually beat them and they relay off of authority figures to show discipline them. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
Rewarding your children when they behave properly does nothing for their moral and personal development. They don't learn anything through that process. It's bad parenting. You may get them to do what you want them to do. But surely 'extortion' doesn't help a person develop into the mold you are trying to 'extort' them into. Punishing them is on another level. And punishing them with pain is off the scale. | ||
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
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Nazarene
Denmark996 Posts
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
On December 24 2008 18:52 ktp wrote: Conclusion: Don't have kids. That's not a real solution....its essentially not answering the question because if people followed your advice the question wouldn't exist. Beating kids makes a lot of sense. You can't reason with a child (non-violent discipline) because their mind is not developed yet. To become a functional adult, a lot of things have to happen in a specific way. At contraception, a sperm fertilizes an egg. From there, given a proper growth environment, it develops into an embryo then fetus based on a specific program encoded in the DNA itself. At some point, the brain is ready to be developed (probably mostly after birth). The brain is hard-wired to nerves and sensory organs, and begins to develop, still working largely off of the original DNA's program. Now is the time where interaction with other humans comes into play. Languages and basic communication is learned. Now you want to teach the child right and wrong. You are trying to teach advanced concepts of responsibility, etc. You can't really use words to teach these concepts because you are trying to teach new concepts in terms of old concepts. Its like trying to heat something to a higher temperature with a large mass of things at lower temperature (not possible). You have to bootstrap a set of basic concepts (a foundation) from which to build upon, the bootstrapping part being using a direct connection to the brain (nerve endings). Since everything is relative, at some point, logically, there can't be a "because". You must start by stating an assumption (axiom), and build all your logic off of that. The spanking gives a clear beginning point for reason because there is no "because" behind it. ![[image loading]](http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9215/avatar94802fu2.gif){kind=avatar} | ||
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IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
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OGzan
United States289 Posts
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NrG.ZaM
United States267 Posts
Then again, it could all be bullshit, it was high school, after all. | ||
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bubblegumbo
Taiwan1296 Posts
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Uraeus
France1378 Posts
Imo, beating kids is wrong in every way, and using violence too often is counter productive. The worst, I think, is parents who act like idiots and punish their kids for doing things they would themselves do, and justify themselves with things like "It's OK for ME, I am a grown up". I think this is the best way to raise your kid a bully and a violent father later. Just my 2 cents though. | ||
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jjun212
Canada2208 Posts
On December 24 2008 19:19 Alizee- wrote: I stick a molten iron rod up my kid's ass, is that ok? What do you think? I donno.. it's too debatable. Almost all of my Asian/Indian/Arab friends were physically disciplined as kids and we've grown up to be cool people I think... I mean like, do well in school, love our families, hang out with each other, etc... We didn't turn out to be mentally challenged, or "Angry at the world" kinda people because we were hit when we were younger. But at the same time, there have been cases of kids being abused constantly and becoming all fucked up. I guess physical discipline is alright but there is a line that once crossed can fuck over the kid's life. You just gotta be aware of that risk, I suppose. | ||
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Epicfailguy
Norway893 Posts
My parents always explained to me why I couldnt do this and that, and it worked. I think its a misstake to punish someone if they didnt know what they did wrong, so they wont do it again out of fear, rather than understanding why they shouldnt do it again. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 24 2008 20:17 jjun212 wrote: were physically disciplined as kids and we've grown up to be cool people I think... I mean like, do well in school, love our families, hang out with each other, etc... We didn't turn out to be mentally challenged, or "Angry at the world" kinda people because we were hit when we were younger. Statistics are clear. People who received corporal punishment are more violent. Not all of them are more violent than people that were not spanked. And violent people can be nice and hard-working, etc etc. Really, you must be very stupid to even try to make this argument. | ||
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lakrismamma
Sweden543 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
the most common arguement "for" spanking children is: "well I was spanked and I turned out just fine" anyone who uses this arguement however, did not turn out fine : for fucks sake, they are advocating hitting their own children. there never exists a moment through a childs upbringing where hitting your child is necessary and where it is not possible to deal with the issues through talking (at least not unless the parent has fucked up prior to this, in which case the child might not respect him or her ) I could go on for pages about this but I don't have time. | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
On December 24 2008 20:34 Liquid`Drone wrote: there never exists a moment through a childs upbringing where hitting your child is necessary and where it is not possible to deal with the issues through talking (at least not unless the parent has fucked up prior to this, in which case the child might not respect him or her ) I still think my above post made a couple good points. For example, how does a child have the concept of respect? (btw, are you a parent? I'm not) | ||
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barth
Ireland1272 Posts
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Epicfailguy
Norway893 Posts
On December 24 2008 20:41 Klogon wrote: Talking doesn't solve everything. Otherwise we wouldn't have wars. Are you serious? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
On December 24 2008 20:45 fight_or_flight wrote: I still think my above post made a couple good points. For example, how does a child have the concept of respect? (btw, are you a parent? I'm not) a child learns the concept of respect like it learns anything else. it also needs to be allowed to get the concept of respect wrong, like it is allowed to get everything else wrong - this is part of the learning process. if a child does not understand something, this is because it has not been explained it adequately - not because it is "bad", thus hitting the child because you did an inadequate job explaining something is just cruel and horrible. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 24 2008 20:54 barth wrote: but physical disciplining children definetly doesnt bring any mental harm for them in the future. The world definitely is flat. Humans and animals learn absolutely nothing through positive and negative reenforcement. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
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Rayzorblade
United States1172 Posts
P.S. Should he be beaten? | ||
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Dariush
Romania330 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:14 Eskii wrote: Physical discipline is an entirely fine way to deal with your kids. Amen, put a stop to continuous pussyfication of the world. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
You can see this clearly with langauge. There is a sensitive period where the organ needs to be stimulated. If not, it will never develop. Morality has a similar period. Then you can be very skilled and refined and there are different languages. Same with morality. If you want a hard-working child you need to influence how that child thinks how hard a person is supposed to work. If it has hardworking parents then it will view this as normal and adopt this lifestyle. 'Right' and 'wrong' has nothing to do with it. Neither has any reasoning. That all comes afterwards. People here that support corporal punishment do so because that's what their parents did or that's what the norm in the society they grew up in was. The arguments they make are fabricated afterwards. Hell, you can even see this in how they mix up the two, turning their reason for supporting it into a fallacy (I turned out right). Same with all those silly comments about a child having to endure hardship and pain so not to be a pussy. Just have some primitive manhoodright instead and stop mixing it up with proper 21th century parenting and especially with morality. I understand that certain societies have differet virtues and certain macho cultures have different views on manhood. But why do we need to endure pain anyway? And what is the link with sex? It's so strange. | ||
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0z
Luxembourg877 Posts
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Naib
Hungary4843 Posts
Go study some psychology before you chime in with your fucked up views. Actually, I was just thinking about something the other day. Maybe it started from a quote I heard in some TV series or something a long time ago... ...but how come people don't need to do tests, have a licence etc. to raise kids? I mean, we do need a driver's licence to drive a card - which is significantly less harder. This thread alone shows how some people are simply not qualified to have kids. We should make them do some simple psychology tests before earning the right to have children - I'd bet that would decrease (not cease - I'm not that much of an optimist) child abuse ratios. I guess it's too bad that would violate or freedom of rights or something like that, huh? *hides from the shitstorm of CharlieMurphy-like people* | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On December 24 2008 20:41 Klogon wrote: Talking doesn't solve everything. Otherwise we wouldn't have wars. That statement is just amazing ! Everyone who learnt / read / studied psychology and has a insight knows: Beating children is never the best way to solve problems. And in most cases it doesnt solve problems, at all. When a child is crying because it wants something and you give in it will forever be crying because it realized that it get's what it wants this way. So you have as soon as possible the duty to not give in if your child is using this '' Cry & thus get what it wants '' strategy. Im witnessing this so often with my girlfriends sister and her parents who are just not capable of properly educating that cute little human being. I know this has nothing to do with beating your children but its also wrong.. It all depends on what you know about child education and psychology and stuff like that. I can just say: Never beat your kid. And IF you feel u have to at least do it in a way that the child realizes that you dont want to harm it but just want to show how serious it is to you.. But getting regularly beaten by parents -/- getting a little , light slap on your ass once a year when you do something very bad.. And the first one is DEFINITELY WRONG,BAD AND NOT GOOD FOR YOUR CHILD WHAT SO EVER.. important edit: To all this videos and stuff where we see children behaving like shit. Thats exactly when its basicaly too late to really change something. THAT is exactly what happens when education went wrong and we see the outcome. So its as everyone with a little insight might now, VERY IMPORTANT to educate properly and correctly from 0-6 years because thats where most things are developed.. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:54 CharlieMurphy wrote: a choke chain on a dog works because the dog gets hurt when it tries to not listen or run out of his bounds. Eventually the dog (depending on how smart) will learn to listen and obey commands associated with the pain. Then you can remove the choke chain and use a regular leash. PS- I am not a spineless coward, nor do I resent my parents. Here's a tiny little difference: You can't explain something verbally to a dog and expect it to work. You can with a human. | ||
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29 fps
United States5724 Posts
On December 24 2008 20:34 Liquid`Drone wrote: there never exists a moment through a childs upbringing where hitting your child is necessary and where it is not possible to deal with the issues through talking (at least not unless the parent has fucked up prior to this, in which case the child might not respect him or her ) hard to believe, but sometimes there's a language barrier between kids and parents. i have a lot of asian friends whose parents weren't born in America and speak hardly any English. It might not always be possible to talk things out with this obstacle. you cant blame the parents either. that's when the stick comes in. probably why it still happens in asian families today. | ||
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Vharox
United States1037 Posts
On December 24 2008 22:05 Naib wrote: ...but how come people don't need to do tests, have a licence etc. to raise kids?( That's from The Outsiders, and Pony Boy says it. On December 24 2008 21:08 Rayzorblade wrote: Latarian Milton has nothing on this kid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GHWRkaHnZQ&feature=related P.S. Should he be beaten? Ooooh my god. Where the hell is the belt at. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On December 24 2008 22:21 FrozenArbiter wrote: Here's a tiny little difference: You can't explain something verbally to a dog and expect it to work. You can with a human. I think he was joking. At least I hope he is. On December 24 2008 12:57 CharlieMurphy wrote: When My 1 year old acts out I smother him with a pillow. Little shit, always crying for milk. | ||
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Vharox
United States1037 Posts
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ManBearPig
Belgium207 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 24 2008 21:08 Rayzorblade wrote: Latarian Milton has nothing on this kid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GHWRkaHnZQ&feature=related P.S. Should he be beaten? He already was. Otherwise he wouldn't behave like that. He already learned might makes right. Hell, he's even hitting his mother already at that age. You first want to learn the child might makes right and then when he starts to employ it you just want to break his win through torture so he won't? I don't know wtf that argument is all about. But maybe the kid is actually right. Who knows. And then suddenly spanking is not ok anymore? If you support adults spanking children if the child is wrong then surely you would support children spanking adults if the adults are wrong, right? | ||
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On December 24 2008 21:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: and I mean like, if you're arguing that "but the child is too young to understand words" and "thus is needs to be told what it cannot do in other ways" then this is just downright retarded. you're expecting the child to understand that you are hitting him or her because you love him or her (a truly necessary part of physical punishment IF it should take place) but not to understand other concepts explained through words? What? Hitting child sole purpose is to punish wrong doings. Downright retarded is thinking that there's something else behind it. With such logic, for parent just looking at child with angry expression is wrong. Fast, harmless but annoying spanking here is just to reinforce meaning of such expression. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
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Uraeus
France1378 Posts
Lightly slapping his hand because he is about to put something harmful in his mouth? I would say right, provided you EXPLAIN why you did that.Try "No darling! You should really not eat that because ..." and you will be calling an ambulance before your speech is over because your kid is choking on that colorful shining marble he just found. Violence solves nothing. And if you have to use violence on your kids, I guess you failed as a parent at some point. Be it physical or moral violence (which is not less harmful). But I don't think some light "physical punishments" can be considered violent. Last time my mother slapped me was like 12 years ago (I was 16 or so) because as every teenager rebelling against parental authority, I occasionnally was an arrogant self centered prick. I hurt her feelings (unintentionally), so she slapped me and told me how wrong what I said was. I hurt her. She hurt me. Fine. You call it violence? I don't, though it is borderline. Anyone thinks I would even remember it had she NOT slapped me and just babbled about it? I certainly don't think so. I bet I hurt her (morally) more than she hurt me (physically). I don't think I even got slapped 10 times during my life, but with hindsight, I would say most of these were well deserved. And useful, as I was always offered an explanation for the slappings. Some people here are quoting studies and stuff. Okay, I couldn't disagree with them. But every case is specific, and saying "No! I will never slap my kid" on an Internet forum while you are slouching in your chair is easy. Try NOT doing it when a car brushes past your 5-year-old who started crossing the street while you were readjusting the blanket on your newborn in his pram. | ||
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sith
United States2474 Posts
"GOD DAMMIT. DIDN'T I TELL YOU TO GET THE HELL OFF OF THERE" booming through the kids mic. He just says kind of meekly "uhhh guys i really gotta go". He disconnects with lightning speed and the last thing i hear on vent is "JESUS FUCKING CHRIST". Ahahah we would have been pissed if it hadn't been so funny and scary at the same time. If anyone got the belt, that kid did. | ||
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KurtistheTurtle
United States1966 Posts
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jjun212
Canada2208 Posts
On December 24 2008 20:27 BlackStar wrote: Statistics are clear. People who received corporal punishment are more violent. Not all of them are more violent than people that were not spanked. And violent people can be nice and hard-working, etc etc. Really, you must be very stupid to even try to make this argument. Do you think I am stupid? I am more than "hard-working", along with my friends actually. I just said that I along with friends who are not of the "white" Canadian skin colour were physically disciplined when we were younger and that we have been living life the way "normal" people have been. We've had ups and downs and still striving to become something better. (Going to school, working, volunteer work, studying, finding jobs, w/e) I don't think any of us have any hidden violence within us wtf? We're all just part-time working students, involved in our community, university accepted students and actually I am in my 3rd year and yea so I am stupid. Fuck you, you stupid fucking cunt. The words you quoted me on, I wasn't even making an argument anyway douchebag. All I was trying to say was you don't see me taking crack, going to rehab and all that shit like little rich kids who never got hit probably. Not every case is the same, obviousfuckingly. You don't think I've heard in classes and on the news of those "quiet" type killers? Who were normal all their lives and suddenly snapped due to some childhood shit, w/e. I can't provide evidence for that, I'm not ISAP specialist. But what I do know is that I fucking told you, that my friends and I who were hit for making mistakes like stealing or arguing back as kids, are living the same, hanging out the same and everything as some of our "White" Canadian friends who said they were never hit I think you're probably very stupid to even respond in such a way, fuck you. Don't even know me, quote me on the wrong words and try to accuse people of being stupid out of nowhere? Who the fuck are you? | ||
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Epicfailguy
Norway893 Posts
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jjun212
Canada2208 Posts
On December 25 2008 02:40 Epicfailguy wrote: Yeah, you sound extremely friendly to me. Well I don't take nicely to random people on the internet who say such dumb things. I usually ignore that kinda stuff like when people talk shit on SC and I know what I wrote was going against what I was trying to say but honestly, calling me stupid for nothing? That is just rubbish. Not everyone on TL-net is a random retard and is some lazy idiot. Some people actually take offense to being called stupid and you're trying to make me sound bad for responding to an insult? Alright, w/e. That's what sucks about insults, sometimes you just want to respond and it makes you look worse in the end. Whatever I can't help in, that guy is a fag still, fuck him. I still don't take back what I said. | ||
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Proposal
United States1310 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
Ghandi being the most non-violent person ever, if he would be, and being hit says absolutely nothing. I didn't even read what kind of excuse you have because there can be none. This has nothing to do with YOU. Try to understand that. No matter what shit society put you through and no matter against which odds you were succesful, you are still wrong and stupid for being so obviously wrong. And all that doesn't take anything away about you which is worthwhile or whatever. Also, what has lazy to do with being stupidly wrong? | ||
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Epicfailguy
Norway893 Posts
On December 25 2008 02:44 jjun212 wrote: Well I don't take nicely to random people on the internet who say such dumb things. I usually ignore that kinda stuff like when people talk shit on SC and I know what I wrote was going against what I was trying to say but honestly, calling me stupid for nothing? That is just rubbish. Not everyone on TL-net is a random retard and is some lazy idiot. Some people actually take offense to being called stupid and you're trying to make me sound bad for responding to an insult? Alright, w/e. That's what sucks about insults, sometimes you just want to respond and it makes you look worse in the end. Whatever I can't help in, that guy is a fag still, fuck him. I still don't take back what I said. Heh, I react the same way myself, no worries =) You speak from your heart at least, I always try to be "the bigger man" or whatever, and sugarcoat my replies...but its basically the same. | ||
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jjun212
Canada2208 Posts
On December 25 2008 02:54 BlackStar wrote: Claiming your own individual irrelevant experiences 'proof' wrong carefully caried out studies using scientific method is clearly stupid. Ghandi being the most non-violent person ever, if he would be, and being hit says absolutely nothing. I didn't even read what kind of excuse you have because there can be none. This has nothing to do with YOU. Try to understand that. No matter what shit society put you through and no matter against which odds you were succesful, you are still wrong and stupid for being so obviously wrong. And all that doesn't take anything away about you which is worthwhile or whatever. If you didn't read my "excuse" then you are clearly ignorant. I'm guessing.... GUESSING, that you took what I wrote and took it the wrong way. So just for that sake, I'm just gonna rephrase or try to say again what I wanted to say originally in a quick summary: As a child, I was hit for doing stupid things. I feel normal though and am following that classic path to adulthood still. As for actual hitting kids. I do not have scientific proof to support the benefits or consequences of this issue but morally, I feel that there is some buffer room in between acceptable physical discipline and abuse. Once that line is reached, I feel that the parent or guardian has lost all competency. But of course, that is a personal opinion and if you want to argue it, go ahead, but insulting my intelligence is just being a jerk. *Also, I never tried to write an essay using my personal life as evidence to condone abusing children. What I did was use my personal experience to sum up a personal response. I never took any clear side on "beating" children or even tried to defend either side with my so called "personal evidence' as you put it, so fuck you still, learn to comprehend better. Idiot. I already feel like I'm getting banned for acting irrationally so I'm just gonna leave this thread and hope that mods are nice today, if not, before I am banned if I am to be banned, I just want to say again, BlackStar, you're a fucking douchebag. It's people like you who start shit intentionally or unintentionally. All you had to do was make a counter argument instead of insulting another person's intelligence. Because you obviously took what I wrote the wrong way. So fuck you, fucking cuntbag. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
And now suddenly you claim I didn't comprehend you right? If that's true you would have said that initially. Whatever. | ||
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xJacky
China375 Posts
On December 24 2008 14:41 SIUnit wrote: 不打不成才 yo FUCKIN WIN! Chinese parents ftw, although it gets annoying sometimes | ||
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Uraeus
France1378 Posts
On December 25 2008 03:08 BlackStar wrote: because I am the one being right on the very critical subject . Guy, you could have some humility beaten into you. No, joking. Kind of. Seriously, quoting a real scientific study and agreeing with it doesn't make you RIGHT. I am not saying the study is wrong or anything. All it says is that statistically, children who suffer from violence ARE MORE LIKELY to become violent personns (I oversimplied it, I know). From that point, you conclude that every single minor slapping in the world is morally wrong and you are a fucking douchebag if you believe otherwise. This is pushing imo. And insulting a guy's intelligence because he quotes his own experience that happens to belong to the minority (according to said study) is at least narrow minded. | ||
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JudgeMathis
Cuba1286 Posts
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On December 25 2008 03:03 jjun212 wrote: If you didn't read my "excuse" then you are clearly ignorant. I'm guessing.... GUESSING, that you took what I wrote and took it the wrong way. So just for that sake, I'm just gonna rephrase or try to say again what I wanted to say originally in a quick summary: As a child, I was hit for doing stupid things. I feel normal though and am following that classic path to adulthood still. As for actual hitting kids. I do not have scientific proof to support the benefits or consequences of this issue but morally, I feel that there is some buffer room in between acceptable physical discipline and abuse. Once that line is reached, I feel that the parent or guardian has lost all competency. But of course, that is a personal opinion and if you want to argue it, go ahead, but insulting my intelligence is just being a jerk. *Also, I never tried to write an essay using my personal life as evidence to condone abusing children. What I did was use my personal experience to sum up a personal response. I never took any clear side on "beating" children or even tried to defend either side with my so called "personal evidence' as you put it, so fuck you still, learn to comprehend better. Idiot. I already feel like I'm getting banned for acting irrationally so I'm just gonna leave this thread and hope that mods are nice today, if not, before I am banned if I am to be banned, I just want to say again, BlackStar, you're a fucking douchebag. It's people like you who start shit intentionally or unintentionally. All you had to do was make a counter argument instead of insulting another person's intelligence. Because you obviously took what I wrote the wrong way. So fuck you, fucking cuntbag. perhaps if you weren't beaten as a child you'd be better to handle your temper with others' misbehavior. if your responses aren't a clear indication that abuse of children doesn't perpetuate abuse (in your case verbal), then nothing is. | ||
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MarklarMarklar
Fiji1823 Posts
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QuanticHawk
United States32054 Posts
On December 25 2008 02:35 jjun212 wrote: All I was trying to say was you don't see me taking crack, going to rehab and all that shit like little rich kids who never got hit probably. No, but getting popped in the noggin too many times seems to have damaged your ability to handle basic math http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=84659 | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
Reinforcement: Action taken as a result of good behavior Punishment: Action taken as a result of bad behavior Positive: Adding something Negative: Taking something away Positive and negative reinforcement are both GOOD in the eyes of the child, since either something good is being added (given) or something bad is taken away. Punishment is always bad, and something bad is given or something good is taken away. | ||
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ManBearPig
Belgium207 Posts
Again: studies have shown that hitting your children is not only not good, it is possible that your child will grow up to be more violent than average people as a result of your disciplining him/her. If you think hitting/slapping your child can be beneficial, you are ignorant (this is ok). If you have read scientific studies on the subject and still think slapping your child can be beneficial, you are stupid (this is not so good). Also, the 'I turned out ok' argument is not valid. Also, this is one of the most retarded blogs ever lol On December 25 2008 04:24 Hawk wrote: No, but getting popped in the noggin too many times seems to have damaged your ability to handle basic math http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=84659 | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On December 24 2008 14:41 SIUnit wrote: 不打不成才 yo LMAO....this guy completely owned this thread. Good thing I got smacked a few times by my dad, I wouldn't want to be any less grown up lol. | ||
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On December 25 2008 04:58 ManBearPig wrote: People are still saying hitting your children is ok? Again: studies have shown that hitting your children is not only not good, it is possible that your child will grow up to be more violent than average people as a result of your disciplining him/her. And when you don't beat the child it's impossible for him to grow up more violent than average people... What kind of beating they were studying? How they ensured hitting was the cause of violence? That's stupid. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On December 25 2008 04:35 Ancestral wrote: I think some of you are confused about terms, and it's best to use the right nomenclature if you plan on discussing something Reinforcement: Action taken as a result of good behavior Punishment: Action taken as a result of bad behavior Positive: Adding something Negative: Taking something away Positive and negative reinforcement are both GOOD in the eyes of the child, since either something good is being added (given) or something bad is taken away. Punishment is always bad, and something bad is given or something good is taken away. thanks for this. i was not aware of the distinctions. edit - now that i think about it, if you know the specifics of operant conditioning, then perhaps you have an opinion on the matter? care to share it? | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
You have to be a weak parent to hit your child; there are always other ways of dealing with situations. And as said many times it doesn't even work. If you still think it's alright to beat children; imagine if you're child misbehaved at school so the teacher smacked him in the face. Would that be alright? He was merely "negatively reinforcing" a bad behavior. Of course it wouldn't, the teacher would be a coward and a terrible professional. In no other area of society is it alright to hit other people, children should be no different. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 25 2008 04:35 Ancestral wrote: Positive and negative reinforcement are both GOOD in the eyes of the child, since either something good is being added (given) or something bad is taken away. Behaviorism has been dead for about 35 years. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 05:36 Klive5ive wrote: Of course you can raise a child without hitting them. This should be completely obvious. You have to be a weak parent to hit your child; there are always other ways of dealing with situations. And as said many times it doesn't even work. If you still think it's alright to beat children; imagine if you're child misbehaved at school so the teacher smacked him in the face. Would that be alright? He was merely "negatively reinforcing" a bad behavior. Of course it wouldn't, the teacher would be a coward and a terrible professional. In no other area of society is it alright to hit other people, children should be no different. Sports-> boxing, football, basketball etc. Law enforcement-> police baton, self defense etc.. Discipline through some form of physical punishment is fine. Obviously anything in excess will be bad but a spanking from time to time is no big deal. Uppity pansies that think it is the end of the world when a 9 year old gets spanked for stealing from the neighbors are what blow me away. People that use objects like belts, spoons etc kinda disturb me. I am also fairly against slapping or "beating" in so far as a closed fist etc. Spanking is fine imo. | ||
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MarklarMarklar
Fiji1823 Posts
i guess it depends on the childs genetics as well and other things, but still. There are better alternatives to raising a child than fucking spanking. friggin american retards, thats right i said it, even tho obama has been elected and my dislike for yanks has gone down, when it comes to this FUCK YANKS. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On December 25 2008 05:53 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Sports-> boxing, football, basketball etc. Law enforcement-> police baton, self defense etc.. Discipline through some form of physical punishment is fine. Obviously anything in excess will be bad but a spanking from time to time is no big deal. Uppity pansies that think it is the end of the world when a 9 year old gets spanked for stealing from the neighbors are what blow me away. People that use objects like belts, spoons etc kinda disturb me. I am also fairly against slapping or "beating" in so far as a closed fist etc. Spanking is fine imo. I don't think it's that's bad to spank a child.. I don't believe it works as intended but it's not a big deal. Your examples are wrong though.... You can't "sport" someone without their permission. It's not alright to body check someone on the street and claim you were practicing for the football team. Both parties agree to the engagement. And as for law enforcement they certainly aren't allowed to hit people, only in self defence. Restraining is not the same as hitting either. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:00 MarklarMarklar wrote: friggin american retards, thats right i said it, even tho obama has been elected and my dislike for yanks has gone down, when it comes to this FUCK YANKS. Fiji has a nice government. But hey I guess I can't blame you because they won't allow elections. | ||
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MarklarMarklar
Fiji1823 Posts
went 2 fiji once tho | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
People are ignorant if they think emotional "abuse" is anything different. You scold a child, tell them they were wrong/did things poorly they are being subjected to the same level of abuse only in a different form. In fact it can be more/less traumatizing.. based on that childs tendencies. If you are parenting the child to assume pain is somehow connected to anything other than "I did something wrong" then you are doing it wrong. It should be clear why they are being punished so the lesson can be learned. That goes for any parenting though.. you raise a child to be verbally abusive due to an unclear understanding of why they are being lectured and you run into higher chances of that kid being a snot. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:08 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I don't care what studies have shown. That is a garbage dump of logic that people quote to make themselves feel established. I was raised by parents who spanked and I turned out absolutely fine. I'm quite sure this is come conspiracy to troll me. I won't fall for it. Just read back. Now stop being funny. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:02 Klive5ive wrote: I don't think it's that's bad to spank a child.. I don't believe it works as intended but it's not a big deal. Your examples are wrong though.... You can't "sport" someone without their permission. It's not alright to body check someone on the street and claim you were practicing for the football team. Both parties agree to the engagement. And as for law enforcement they certainly aren't allowed to hit people, only in self defence. Restraining is not the same as hitting either. Uh you said it isn't ok in any area of society to hit someone. I clearly indicated it in fact is. Consent is an entirely seperate issue. It isn't even relevant to this thread. Do you think parents sit the child down and ask if it is ok to spank them? No. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:09 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Uh you said it isn't ok in any area of society to hit someone. I clearly indicated it in fact is. Consent is an entirely seperate issue. It isn't even relevant to this thread. Do you think parents sit the child down and ask if it is ok to spank them? No. I'm going to assume you're drunk, it is Christmas Eve after all. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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QuanticHawk
United States32054 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:00 MarklarMarklar wrote: but incontrol, studies have shown that spanking aint really good for the child, just like other forms of violence. to make a person feel pain to show that something is wrong to do = connects certain things in that childs head that shouldnt be connected which means likelyhood of violence in adolescence etc etc i guess it depends on the childs genetics as well and other things, but still. There are better alternatives to raising a child than fucking spanking. friggin american retards, thats right i said it, even tho obama has been elected and my dislike for yanks has gone down, when it comes to this FUCK YANKS. So was it too much abuse, or a lack of spanking that led you to become a attention seeking, cross dresser on the internetz? | ||
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MarklarMarklar
Fiji1823 Posts
generalize more you fuckhead, throw all studies in one fucking pile the size of your Ass. p.s. our bodies use pain to tell us something is wrong yeah, but if our mind knows its being done by a human being on purpose it shows that the childs psychology can change towards the concept of violence and so on. Not every child, but enough of em. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:11 {88}iNcontroL wrote: you guys are fucking shitty posters. stop trolling and engage the fucking argument or just leave the thread You're accusing me of trolling when you start a post with "I don't care what studies have shown" followed by lines of your own psychological analysis. I feel you're defending your own parents, which is fair enough. I got hit occasionally and it wasn't a big deal but there are other methods of negative and positive reinforcement that don't involve violence or confuse a child more. | ||
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ManBearPig
Belgium207 Posts
Yeah we'll just ignore scientific studies and go with what you think sounds logical. Do you know anything about epistomology? | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:12 MarklarMarklar wrote: "that is a garbage dump of logic that people quote to make themselves feel established" generalize more you fuckhead, throw all studies in one fucking pile the size of your Ass. p.s. our bodies use pain to tell us something is wrong yeah, but if our mind knows its being done by a human being on purpose it shows that the childs psychology can change towards the concept of violence and so on. Not every child, but enough of em. I don't have to generalize to lump your terrible argument with all the other seudo intellectuals who say "well Barthes once said.. SO IT MUST BE TRUE." Saying "studies show" is the most vague attempt at claiming legitimacy I have ever heard. Do you realize I could run a fucking "study" right now and determine that 100% of Washitonians (me) believe Dinosaurs exist on the moon? If you want to cite a specific study, one we can engage or discuss that is fine. But blandly stating that STUDIES HAVE SHOW means nothing. Don't get all fucking pissy when I point out that you are a dinner table intellectual who would love it if people just fucking assumed when a person says "studies have shown" that they are obviously right. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:14 ManBearPig wrote: lol incontrol Yeah we'll just ignore scientific studies and go with what you think sounds logical. Do you know anything about epistomology? Ok jackass.. read my below post. Studies have conflicting results. If anyone wants to display a specific study that we can engage that is fine. Studies have shown that the earth is flat (long ago). Studies have also shown that milk is bad for you. Then studies showed that milk is good for you. Studies have shown stretching before a physical activity is bad for you. IT MEANS NOTHING | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
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MarklarMarklar
Fiji1823 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:11 Hawk wrote: So was it too much abuse, or a lack of spanking that led you to become a attention seeking, cross dresser on the internetz? new blog time | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:14 Klive5ive wrote: You're accusing me of trolling when you start a post with "I don't care what studies have shown" followed by lines of your own psychological analysis. I feel you're defending your own parents, which is fair enough. I got hit occasionally and it wasn't a big deal but there are other methods of negative and positive reinforcement that don't involve violence or confuse a child more. 3rd time I address this: I am attacking the notion that people can cite the universal "studies" and claim legitimacy. | ||
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ManBearPig
Belgium207 Posts
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MarklarMarklar
Fiji1823 Posts
for people who hasnt read the studies, like you. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:16 BlackStar wrote: {88}iNcontroL, don't try to make amusement about a topic that involves violence against children. If this was about politics or something I guess I could accept it on christmas evening. But this is bad taste. Are you really that dumb? In this post alone you somehow get that my support of moderate spanking is a joke. Then you assert that politics are ok to joke about.. but not spanking children. Like, I am baffled at how incredibly retarded such a small post can be. It is literally crammed with the most illogical posting...jesus christ. You'd be an achievement if it weren't for how bad you are. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:18 ManBearPig wrote: I think at least one, maybe two studies have been cited in this thread, one by frits, who studies psychology at a good university. So yeah. Not by the people I am addressing now. And like I said, other studies have shown spanking is fine. Does that mean they are right? No, it means they have a result motivated by a study. Btw: going to a good university (subjective) and studying psychology is a close second in vague retarded claims to legitimacy to "studies have shown." I have friends at Georgetown, Stanford, Harvard etc.. and they are fully capable of bad opinions like anyone else. | ||
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ManBearPig
Belgium207 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:16 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Ok jackass.. read my below post. Studies have conflicting results. If anyone wants to display a specific study that we can engage that is fine. Studies have shown that the earth is flat (long ago). Studies have also shown that milk is bad for you. Then studies showed that milk is good for you. Studies have shown stretching before a physical activity is bad for you. IT MEANS NOTHING Oh my good lord, the fallacies, THE FALLACIES. 'Studies' haven't shown the earth is flat, not even long ago, if you wanna use the word 'studies' in an acceptable manner. I think milk IS bad for you, but I'm not aware of studies on this subject so I won't go into this. At any rate, pointing out conflicts in former studies on completely unrelated subjects, has nothing to do with our subject and the studies performed thereon, neither does it have any consequences for the reliability of scientific knowledge in general, because, believe it or not, it requires multiple studies, with double-blind experiments and all that shit. You're stupid. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:19 MarklarMarklar wrote: for people who hasnt read the studies, like you. *Haven't I debated this issue on a collegiate circuit for numerous years. I will go ahead and assume I have read countless more "studies" on said issue than you. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:19 {88}iNcontroL wrote: In this post alone you somehow get that my support of moderate spanking is a joke. Then you assert that politics are ok to joke about.. but not spanking children. I guess this is your way of apologizing? One wasn't really necessary. But fun stuff has to be fun first and foremost. No hard feelings here either. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:22 ManBearPig wrote: Oh my good lord, the fallacies, THE FALLACIES. 'Studies' haven't shown the earth is flat, not even long ago, if you wanna use the word 'studies' in an acceptable manner. I think milk IS bad for you, but I'm not aware of studies on this subject so I won't go into this. At any rate, pointing out conflicts in former studies on completely unrelated subjects, has nothing to do with our subject and the studies performed thereon, neither does it have any consequences for the reliability of scientific knowledge in general, because, believe it or not, it requires multiple studies, with double-blind experiments and all that shit. You're stupid. I'm sure you will understand if I don't take your "you're stupid" comment too seriously? You are in fact completely retarded.. and a new poster around here. You have nothing to work with aside from your ignorant defense of the almighty "studies have shown." I look forward to the day I see you banned  We have enough shitty posters around here as is evident with blackstar and such. | ||
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MarklarMarklar
Fiji1823 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote: *Haven't I debated this issue on a collegiate circuit for numerous years. I will go ahead and assume I have read countless more "studies" on said issue than you. that was at yank ones tho and everyone knows how yank feel about spankin', go to a european one and have a different experience. | ||
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ManBearPig
Belgium207 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:21 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Not by the people I am addressing now. And like I said, other studies have shown spanking is fine. Does that mean they are right? No, it means they have a result motivated by a study. Btw: going to a good university (subjective) and studying psychology is a close second in vague retarded claims to legitimacy to "studies have shown." I have friends at Georgetown, Stanford, Harvard etc.. and they are fully capable of bad opinions like anyone else. lol So I have to quote his study again, even if it was cited in the SAME THREAD ONLY PAGES AGO? Did you just say there are conflicting studies on spanking without citing any? Because I think you were just attacking EXACTLY THIS? Yeah the authority is irrelevant, but you were saying unqualified people were making claims about 'some studies'. I refuted this. God I hate you | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:16 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Studies have shown that the earth is flat (long ago). You're not trusting "historical studies" for that information I hope. You better have some decent evidence to back that up that you can cite RIGHT NOW in this thread to contain my zerg anger. | ||
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InfeSteD
United States4658 Posts
beating helps... I wasnt beaten and I can tell you that Im a little spoiled little bitch and a fagget... beating your kid helps... trust me.. + Show Spoiler + I mean beating by spanking and reasonable physical discipline, not fucking them up or anything likethat | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
can people start citing some sources as to all these 'studies' going on that 'prove' that spanking (and nothing more severe than that) combined with good parenting (we need to control for other factors), increases the chance that kids will be violent. this is actually pretty interesting stuff to me, particularly because i want to know if i should hit my kids or not. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:12 mahnini wrote: shitstorm incoming Mahnini see the future; people beware. | ||
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ManBearPig
Belgium207 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:28 Mora wrote: inc has a point. can people start citing some sources as to all these 'studies' going on that 'prove' that spanking (and nothing more severe than that) combined with good parenting (we need to control for other factors), increases the chance that kids will be violent. this is actually pretty interesting stuff to me, particularly because i want to know if i should hit my kids or not. Oh god no what has he done | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:25 ManBearPig wrote: lol So I have to quote his study again, even if it was cited in the SAME THREAD ONLY PAGES AGO? Did you just say there are conflicting studies on spanking without citing any? Because I think you were just attacking EXACTLY THIS? Yeah the authority is irrelevant, but you were saying unqualified people were making claims about 'some studies'. I refuted this. God I hate you I don't need to cite specific counter studies because that isn't the point I am making.. the point I was making is that studies are independent and do not create some kind of truth. Only what they found. You guys can continue to nit pick my bad example of the earth being flat study.. but the point I was making is still there. Studies conflict, studies are done with bias, studies are made in error. Citing "studies have shown" is moronic and terrible. You guys don't seem to want to accept this and defend the incredibly vague notion that it is ok to call upon the universes amazing powers of logic in such a single sweeping statement. Again, you can hate me all you like but in the end it is you who will be banned for being a pretentious uppity faggot. | ||
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InfeSteD
United States4658 Posts
actually my little boy does listen to me.. but the way he shows love to me is by hitting me and he is barely one year old.. and he loves to hit.. so maybe its not a good thing.. I dont even know O_O | ||
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ManBearPig
Belgium207 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I don't need to cite specific counter studies because that isn't the point I am making.. the point I was making is that studies are independent and do not create some kind of truth. Only what they found. You guys can continue to nit pick my bad example of the earth being flat study.. but the point I was making is still there. Studies conflict, studies are done with bias, studies are made in error. Citing "studies have shown" is moronic and terrible. You guys don't seem to want to accept this and defend the incredibly vague notion that it is ok to call upon the universes amazing powers of logic in such a single sweeping statement. Again, you can hate me all you like but in the end it is you who will be banned for being a pretentious uppity faggot. Lol I actually missed the part where blackstar pointed out you were trolling, but when I read this last post I just laughed at its stupidity I still hate you | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
One can't even propose a theory as to why punishing a child would work in the first place. Let alone with violence. And teaching through reward has been a dead theory for 35 years. I already posted a video of the main guy behind the revolution that followed. You can find his main paper freely on the net. I also linked to 15 videos by several experts on child psychology, education and pedagogy, etc. They probably at least hint at some studies which you can then find. And apparently two links to studies were posted earlier. It's not just some random studies. It's a comprehensive scientific consensus specifiically against corporal punishment. Don't listen to InControl. He's just doing some satire of some rednecks and luring out some anti-americans, stirring up shit. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Again, you can hate me all you like but in the end it is you who will be banned for being a pretentious uppity faggot. I actually think you're pretty awesome, but I'll take that last point as a GG xD You know more than I do that you can never prove anything 100% but there seems to be enough evidence in this thread to conclude that it's likely spanking is not the best way to raise your child (not the worst either). For those who can't be bothered to look back: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em1pwqlvMCs&15m#t=15m3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x_KDDeqEHY&feature=channel_page | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
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ManBearPig
Belgium207 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:36 Slaughter)BiO wrote: The fact you have ended the last couple of posts with "I hate you" just shows your not even being rational anymore, your just responding with your anger. While Inc is calm and easily drawing you to look more and more foolish. I'm actually having some ice-cream, chilling out, and I'm really bored, so just having a discussion for the sake of discussing seemed appealing to me. Actually I do hate inc, as a poster, and I have hated him for quite some time, it's not due to his trolling here. At any rate, my supposed anger does not make my arguments any less valid. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32054 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
Spanking children in the US is like creationism. A large part of the general population totally opposes the accepted mainstream scientific consensus. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:43 BlackStar wrote: Yeah but the debate has ended long long ago. At least among educated people. That's something, isn't it? Spanking children in the US is like creationism. A large part of the general population totally opposes the accepted mainstream scientific consensus. DUDE You keep asserting I am some kind of satire or w/e but Hawk/Mora and others are all intelligent enough to get my point while you just kinda truck on through it each time. You (very disrespectfully) assert that all intelligent/educated people know that spanking is bad which makes the assumption that dumb/uneducated people think it is ok? Then you move on to creationism... which is an entirely seperate issue. But while we are on the subject of "studies" Ben Stein did a "study" in a documentary called "Expelled" on creationism in the scientific community. Quite a few very intelligent/educated people don't want to rule out intelligent design/creationism. Are they right? Certainly not (conclusively at least) but the point I have been trying desperately to make is it is OK to have conflicting results in a study. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
The argument he repeated line for line is "Those studies are bullshit. I turned out right." which is clearly fallacious and he knows it. You should too. Those studies don't claim he can't possibly be. So that's a straw man right there. Then, his personal case says nothing about a study. Even if the study says something that's clearly wrong in his individual case, which isn't even true, then still that doesn't mean anything is wrong with that study. Not to mention not all studies are equal. Just because some studies are bad doesn't mean these one are. Just because some studies are misused and seen as the end to all things doesn't mean these are. Just because studies on some subjects are contradictiory doesn't mean these ones are. Not to mention studies have been a very small part of this whole debate. Even the notions behind spanking are grounded in fundamentally flawed beliefs. | ||
micronesia
United States24680 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:50 Eatme wrote: My mom is a teacher and according to her, the kids that get physicaly disciplined (or whatever you want to call it) behave alot wore than kids that dont. I dont really know if this is regional as the stereotype of asians is not of someone misbehaving at school. This is an oversimplification. However, a violent household will definitely yield more violent children, everything else being equal. | ||
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ManBearPig
Belgium207 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:45 Slaughter)BiO wrote: I just find it funny that you seem to be arguing for different things. Inc isnt arguing about what method is best for raising children. He is arguing about the way people are arguing. And he is right when he criticizes those who just use phrases like "studies show" and then don't follow up. People today seem to use scientific studies as some kind of end all to arguments when any real researcher will tell you to watch very carefully what the study exactly was and what the people claimed it said. Its just funny because since he is attacking those statements he is basically indirectly attacking your arguments because the "beating is bad" side is the one who used it so they feel they need to defend their arguments heh. Are you serious? Yeah people who say 'studies have shown..' while this isn't correct are wrong, I don't think you're gonna get any debate here? That being said, studies about the issue of spanking have been cited in this very thread, as well as videos with experts giving an explanation on the subject, on this very page. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:45 Slaughter)BiO wrote: I just find it funny that you seem to be arguing for different things. Inc isnt arguing about what method is best for raising children. He is arguing about the way people are arguing. And he is right when he criticizes those who just use phrases like "studies show" and then don't follow up. People today seem to use scientific studies as some kind of end all to arguments when any real researcher will tell you to watch very carefully what the study exactly was and what the people claimed it said. Its just funny because since he is attacking those statements he is basically indirectly attacking your arguments because the "beating is bad" side is the one who used it so they feel they need to defend their arguments heh. It is refreshing to see you amongst others get my point 100%. They had me thinking that perhaps I was being confusing or misguided.. but if you got it that means they could/should as well. I am really sensitive to this subject because it was a huge issue in debate. If people were allowed to just cite random surveys, studies or philosophers without actually explaining the tangible connection or allowing for peer access to the literature then you could never argue against them because oh lawd some group of scientists vaguely determined that something is bad for you. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
I thought you were smart. Sorry, my mistake. I stil find it hard to believe. I guess I overestimate the US. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:54 BlackStar wrote: {88}iNcontroL.if you aren't trolling then you are very very very very very, let me emphasis, very stupid. I thought you were smart. Sorry, my mistake. I stil find it hard to believe. I guess I overestimate the US. Suddenly I am the conclusive representative of the overall intelligence of a country of 300 million people? And I am the one who is stupid? what?!?!? | ||
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ManBearPig
Belgium207 Posts
Why don't you elaborate on the pleasures of trolling and allow us a glance into the psyche of a fierce troll, inc? Or should I say, bitch nigga | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And I am the one who is stupid? what?!?!?I thought I just mentioned the big social problem the US has with science and public opinion colliding. | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:37 Klive5ive wrote: I actually think you're pretty awesome, but I'll take that last point as a GG xD You know more than I do that you can never prove anything 100% but there seems to be enough evidence in this thread to conclude that it's likely spanking is not the best way to raise your child (not the worst either). For those who can't be bothered to look back: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em1pwqlvMCs&15m#t=15m3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x_KDDeqEHY&feature=channel_page did you watch either of those videos or are you just quoting them? i watched them. they prove nothing. they don't quote studies, they just re-iterate the same sentiments that incontrol has complained about: "studies show....". I want the actual studies. I just wasted an hour of my time watching this horse shit. If the people in this thread are so convinced by their 'studies' surely they have one bookmarked that backs up their unwavering opinions. The onus is not on those of us who think that spanking is fine. They have their own personal experience to prove that physical discipline can be successful. The onus is on those who are saying they are wrong, when the only evidence in this thread (their relative success as adults) would indicate otherwise. For what it's worth: i do not believe in physcial discipline. (i was never exposed to physical discipline. infact, from my mom i never received discipline at all - she used reason instead of discipline to teach me right and wrong - and from my father i received moderate verbal abuse from for my entire life). It's from my personal experience between both methods of parenting that has made me intrinsically believe that reason alone can be used to be an effective parent. But i'm not throwing around that 'studies have shown' that my opinion is right. I've never actually seen any studies on the matter at all. I've watched several videos of doctors who affirm my sentiments, and often they say "studies have shown" or "some evidence suggest", but as to actually seeing the study and its sample size and control factors and methods? Never. I think that the best of parents are ones that don't use physical discipline. That being said, i am not convinced that spanking is bad or harmful, and if that is the case, i'd like to see the proof. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 07:00 BlackStar wrote: I thought I just mentioned the big social problem the US has with science and public opinion colliding. If you did it wasn't in the post where you called me very stupid and then said you overestimated the US. If somehow the next line was supposed to indicate a throwback to another post you made then you have a LOT to learn about posting. It makes sense that you'd think that makes sense though.. cause you are fucking terrible at posting. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
i watched them. they prove nothing. they don't quote studies, they just re-iterate the same sentiments that incontrol has complained about: "studies show....". Incontrol complained about citing studies. Not about not citing them. Anyway, http://scholar.google.co.uk Studies are less important than theories. What do you want to hear? That Inc is correct or how to teach children/humans/animals? | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 25 2008 07:05 BlackStar wrote: Incontrol complained about citing studies. Not about not citing them. Anyway, http://scholar.google.co.uk Studies are less important than theories. WHAT? NO NO NOOOOOOOOOO Mora was absolutely correct about what I was complaining about. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 25 2008 07:06 {88}iNcontroL wrote: WHAT? NO NO NOOOOOOOOOO Mora was absolutely correct about what I was complaining about. Shut the fuck up already. You are getting annoying. There's actually people that want to be responsible people that want to learn how human behavior develops because they want to be responsible parents. You have no respect for me. Fine. At least respect them. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:08 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I don't care what studies have shown. That is a garbage dump of logic that people quote to make themselves feel established. I was raised by parents who spanked and I turned out absolutely fine. I don't know how violent you are or how violent you would've turned out if not spanked, this proves nothing and it's silly to bring up 1 unresearched case to counter controlled research concerning multiple groups with test groups etc. Our bodies use pain to tell us that something is wrong. Our parents are in charge of raising us with the notion that we need to learn right from wrong. Mild pain that causes no physical damage/trauma as a form of discipline is fine. This isn't about trauma, this is about bringing up kids in a way that doesn't inspire them to be generally more violent, which all studies show. There is no study that contradicts this. And who are you to decide that it is fine? If there are peaceful alternatives that is proven to have better effects on children in later life why not employ those methods? And the point here was not that kids could not associate pain right or become traumatized, the point is that spanking inspires certain forms of antisocial behavior. We want kids to respond in a social way with eachother after all. People are ignorant if they think emotional "abuse" is anything different. You scold a child, tell them they were wrong/did things poorly they are being subjected to the same level of abuse only in a different form. In fact it can be more/less traumatizing.. based on that childs tendencies. What a bunch of bullshit, you're just like CM, you think you can explain psychological theory with a little observation and common sense, it's not that simple. There is definately a difference in the 'abuse', the way you teach your kids to do things will make the kid copy your behavior, if you are used to talking things out with your kid than the kid will be more likely to do this with his peers. The childs tendencies are not as genetic based as you think, the more you beat your kid, the more tendencies he has towards violence. All studies point towards this, I don't see what's wrong with pointing this out. Besides, as previously pointed out: When raising kids there needs to be an emphasis on positive reinforcement, and when you do have to punish your kid, do it without violence. If you are parenting the child to assume pain is somehow connected to anything other than "I did something wrong" then you are doing it wrong. It should be clear why they are being punished so the lesson can be learned. That goes for any parenting though.. you raise a child to be verbally abusive due to an unclear understanding of why they are being lectured and you run into higher chances of that kid being a snot. Unclear understanding of why they are being lectured? Im pretty sure the kid will easily be able to attribute a beating or lecture correctly. Although a lecture might be more effective than a beating when too much time has passed. Sure, the kid will remember the beating, but it won't be conditioned to actually stop the behavior, so the beating can often be ineffective. Like I've said before, roughly 90-95 % of our behavior is unconscious, beating needs to be on the spot for it to have any lasting effect, and this effect will still last shorter than positive reinforcement. Raising a kid to be verbally abusive has to do with how much the parents use cuss words, not how much lectures they give by the way. You are looking at this too black and white, there are certain principles you can raise your kids by that improves the chances of it turning out well, it's exactly like poker: The better parent does more things right generally, but a kid can still turn out badly. Never use 'but X turned out fine' as an argument. edit: It's amazing how much the clarity of your mind differs from 23 pm to 6 am. | ||
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Uraeus
France1378 Posts
A few guys here really need to learn about the very concept of evidence. "Studies have shown that spanking your kids is retarded and harmful and will fuck up their minds and only morons and cavemen like Incontrol do this". Errrr. No. In fact you have to quote almost a whole study to describe it accurately. What population was studied, what was labeled "physical punishment", was was the age of the kid, what frequency of "beating" was starting to show tendencies to violence, etc... Your studies seem to show (more or less) that exposition to violence as a child tend to make you violent. Period. Saying that with every slap across the face you face the risk of turning your kid into a psycho is mind bogglingly stupid and nowhere near what these studies say. If I ever have kids, I want to avoid hitting them whenever I can. But who knows? And moreover, nothing has been said about emotional violence, which I think is a lot worse then physical violence : you can be a terrible dad without ever hitting your kid. And on a side note, like it or not, iNcontroL actually made a point. And a valid one. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 25 2008 07:26 Uraeus wrote: I am baffled too. A few guys here really need to learn about the very concept of evidence. "Studies have shown that spanking your kids is retarded and harmful and will fuck up their minds and only morons and cavemen like Incontrol do this". Errrr. No. In fact you have to quote almost a whole study to describe it accurately. What population was studied, what was labeled "physical punishment", was was the age of the kid, what frequency of "beating" was starting to show tendencies to violence, etc... Your studies seem to show (more or less) that exposition to violence as a child tend to make you violent. Period. Saying that with every slap across the face you face the risk of turning your kid into a psycho is mind bogglingly stupid and nowhere near what these studies say. If I ever have kids, I want to avoid hitting them whenever I can. But who knows? And moreover, nothing has been said about emotional violence, which I think is a lot worse then physical violence : you can be a terrible dad without ever hitting your kid. And on a side note, like it or not, iNcontroL actually made a point. And a valid one. Who the hell is saying anything like Studies have shown that spanking your kids is retarded and harmful and will fuck up their minds and only morons and cavemen like Incontrol do this" in this thread? I have never seen anything taken out of context so badly, what a rediculous strawman.There is nothing wrong with saying that "Studies have shown that corporal punishment generally leads to more violent behavior in children." You don't have to cite anything, have you ever written a scientific article? Technically all you have to do is quote the names of the authors and the year it was published in, which I think goes a little too far on forums, especially when you have incontrol assuming theories without citing anything whatsoever. | ||
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ManBearPig
Belgium207 Posts
On December 25 2008 07:26 Uraeus wrote: I am baffled too. A few guys here really need to learn about the very concept of evidence. "Studies have shown that spanking your kids is retarded and harmful and will fuck up their minds and only morons and cavemen like Incontrol do this". Errrr. No. In fact you have to quote almost a whole study to describe it accurately. What population was studied, what was labeled "physical punishment", was was the age of the kid, what frequency of "beating" was starting to show tendencies to violence, etc... Your studies seem to show (more or less) that exposition to violence as a child tend to make you violent. Period. Saying that with every slap across the face you face the risk of turning your kid into a psycho is mind bogglingly stupid and nowhere near what these studies say. If I ever have kids, I want to avoid hitting them whenever I can. But who knows? And moreover, nothing has been said about emotional violence, which I think is a lot worse then physical violence : you can be a terrible dad without ever hitting your kid. And on a side note, like it or not, iNcontroL actually made a point. And a valid one. You're pretty good at quoting shit nobody ever said lol. I don't think a single soul on this site would consider defending the statements you are attacking ? I think it's like this: it has been shown that, statistically, children are more likely to grow up to be violent when exposed to violence in their childhood, this includes slapping. I don't think a causal effect has been shown here. Apart from this, multiple studies have shown that punishment is not a good way of teaching stuff to a child. I can guarantee a google scholar search will pop up a lot of results on this one. God I'm so bored. | ||
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jjun212
Canada2208 Posts
On December 25 2008 04:24 Hawk wrote: No, but getting popped in the noggin too many times seems to have damaged your ability to handle basic math http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=84659 Honestly, I was just trying to make a laugh for all to enjoy. Because think about it, even if I really did miscalculate it, I could have easily edited it immediately and erased it all. Why didn't I? I thought it'd be funny for all to joke around with. I like TL-net to joke around with. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
And when people mention studies then that doesn't mean it's some universal undisputed truth. If you actually go through 60+ studies all about 35 pages with heavy use of jargon and references of previous studies then sure there will always be contradictions. There will be a lot of them. And of course studies can always have statistical artifacts. But that's all besides the point. When someone says: "studies have shown" then that's just all there is too it. If you say: "It must be wrong, I turned out right." you show both lack of reasoning and ignorance of studies or scientific method in general. Still, one can make arguments against a study. But also the the criticism that respected scientists say "evidence shows" and then don't actually provide sources in a popular science video or interview isn't fair criticism. These studies are all technical literature. How can you cram all that in a 5 minute interview? Anyway, do you really think they are lying about this or all making it up? Sure, it's not up to academic standards. But that's because it isn't academic. And there needs to be a way to make sure they aren't. And there is. Normally sceptical laymen don't go through all the technical literature. If you are just too paranoid you will just not know. One generally goes by the knowledge that if you wanted you could study really hard, read it and confirm it to be true yourself because others have done that. That's how science works. And that's how we all use it everyday. And that's how scientists approach fields in which they aren't qualified. They can't even read the technical literature and appriciate all the nuances and interpret studies the way the consensus in that field claims it ought to be interpreted. No one in this thread claimed that studies are never wrong. And studies played a very minor part all through this debate until people judged studies were somehow a weakness in the position of the science advocates in this debate. [edit] ooh lol I see this debate already went into what I was trying to preempt. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 25 2008 07:39 jjun212 wrote: Honestly, I was just trying to make a laugh for all to enjoy. Because think about it, even if I really did miscalculate it, I could have easily edited it immediately and erased it all. Why didn't I? I thought it'd be funny for all to joke around with. I like TL-net to joke around with. Trust me, the feeling is mutual. | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
What I wanted to point out about this studies: Many studies into the effects of beating your kids have proven to be highly unreliable because they are largely based on the researchers' interpretation of children's behavior. Those undertaken by anti-physical discipline advocates inevitably show that its counter-productive and maybe dangerous. Those undertaken by pro-physical discipline advocates show the opposite: itss safe, effective, and has no long term deleterious results. Also we must note that the definition for "physical discipline" may be interpreted in many different ways and studied differently thus obtaning different results, this is instantly and most common associated with high degree (? dunno how to say it in english)beatings , which is not what those who are in favor of beating your children may agree or subscribe to. Unless they provide a clear definition of what they considered "Beating your kids" in their studies I don' think this studies will be reliable at all. | ||
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TS-Rupbar
Sweden1089 Posts
I have never had a spanking in all my life, though. No one I know has either. | ||
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WindCalibur
Canada938 Posts
Hitting your child does work on some children but not others. Sometimes it can make the child learn but sometimes it can make them violent when they grow up. I have a friend who is 16 ( same age as me) and he was often spanked until the 10. I often go to his house and he is one of the most mature human being I know. He seems to get along with his parents very well. For me, I came to Canada from China in 2000. I went to elementary school and the students along with the teachers used to call me an idiot in my face. Of course I didn't know english that well so I hardly could understand what they were saying but I knew when they called me an idiot. Some kids used to say how I'm mentally retarded and laugh in my face. When I went home, my mom would also say how stupid I am and how I will never accomplish anything when I grow up. After going into highschool, I met some friends. By trying to prove that I'm not an idiot, I tried to find any possible way to show them that I am mentally superior. Now, I get straight As and am currently taking many enriched courses. I never reject anything that involves mental skills such as chess. I showed the whole school (especially those elementary idiots who said I'm a retard) that I'm not stupid by winning the school chess tournament without drawing or losing once. People who used to call me idiots now deeply respect me. By having many people pressure me and calling me a freakin retard, I have learned my own ways to prove that I'm not. Maybe by telling your kids that they are idiots for the things they do, they will stop doing those things because they don't want to be an idiot. Of course this is all personal experience and its only a opinion. | ||
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ilistis
United States828 Posts
On December 25 2008 08:12 WindCalibur wrote: From personal experience, mental torture works a lot better than physical torture. Hitting your child does work on some children but not others. Sometimes it can make the child learn but sometimes it can make them violent when they grow up. I have a friend who is 16 ( same age as me) and he was often spanked until the 10. I often go to his house and he is one of the most mature human being I know. He seems to get along with his parents very well. For me, I came to Canada from China in 2000. I went to elementary school and the students along with the teachers used to call me an idiot in my face. Of course I didn't know english that well so I hardly could understand what they were saying but I knew when they called me an idiot. Some kids used to say how I'm mentally retarded and laugh in my face. When I went home, my mom would also say how stupid I am and how I will never accomplish anything when I grow up. After going into highschool, I met some friends. By trying to prove that I'm not an idiot, I tried to find any possible way to show them that I am mentally superior. Now, I get straight As and am currently taking many enriched courses. I never reject anything that involves mental skills such as chess. I showed the whole school (especially those elementary idiots who said I'm a retard) that I'm not stupid by winning the school chess tournament without drawing or losing once. People who used to call me idiots now deeply respect me. By having many people pressure me and calling me a freakin retard, I have learned my own ways to prove that I'm not. Maybe by telling your kids that they are idiots for the things they do, they will stop doing those things because they don't want to be an idiot. Of course this is all personal experience and its only a opinion. That doesn't happen all the time though. It could have the complete opposite effect on another person. Instead of trying to prove themselves, another person may actually believe what was told to them. | ||
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Uraeus
France1378 Posts
On December 25 2008 07:33 ManBearPig wrote: You're pretty good at quoting shit nobody ever said lol. Of course no one said exactly what I quoted. I phrased it this way for emphasis, that's all. But seriously, read all the thread again, and honestly some positions are very close to this, or even worse. BlackStar said "And when people mention studies then that doesn't mean it's some universal undisputed truth". Yes, yes, and yes. Yet some people in this thread claim so. Like... BlackStar (page 9) "I don't care if I am an asshole because I am the one being right on the very critical subject of parents using violence against their own children which is severely harming society." ManBearPig : "If you have read scientific studies on the subject and still think slapping your child can be beneficial, you are stupid (this is not so good)." That kind of behavior bothers me especially BECAUSE I have studied sciences. If you cite scientific studies, behave like a scientist. Be humble, and do not try to say more than the results show. "These data suggest". Not "I am the one being right". "If you [...] still think [that], you are stupid". No, I just think some precise cases, if closely studied, would give different results. I think Klive5ive sums the results well : You know more than I do that you can never prove anything 100% but there seems to be enough evidence in this thread to conclude that it's likely spanking is not the best way to raise your child (not the worst either). Not more, not less. I personnally think, that if given on the spot, with a proper explanation and background education, a light corporal punishment can, if used exceptionnally, be beneficial. Unless I misunderstood, the studies you quote do not adress this particular issue at all, and do not differentiate this from brutal pointless beatings given without a reason or explanation. Now, quote me a study that studies precisely this and comes to the conclusion that kids raised this way are more likely to become violent, and I will reconsider my opinion. Otherwise, the funny thing is that I quite agree with you guys and do not doubt your studies at all. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
Being humble like a scientist? I am sorry but that makes no sense. Plus I wasn't being arrogant. Mean, maybe. Not arrogant. Science is interesting. And if you don't agree you can fuck off. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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SerpentFlame
415 Posts
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 25 2008 08:29 SerpentFlame wrote: So far, I've yet to meet anyone who has been physically disciplined moderately (for example, a swat on the ass every now and then as justified punishment for bad behavior) that have sorely wished they hadn't been. The same cannot be said of those who grew up without physical discipline and those who grew up with heavy physical discipline. This, I think, should be enough to demonstrate that spanking can be (but not always is) a legitimate form of punishment. Have you ever seen an antisocial person say, "boy, I wish I wasn't so antisocial"? Your point is silly. Ofcourse children can cope with a little spanking, noone is denying that. The point however is that children who are spanked in their childhood are more likely to show antisocial behavior, namely violence, and that this can be easily avoided. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
What do you mean by 'legitimate' anyway? There's tons of arguments against it but few in support of it. And if you want to talk about legality, it's illegal in 23 countries. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
If my parents ever would've beaten me (or spanked - I don't care about terminology) I'd loathe them more than anything else. I know this from my personality and my stance on these and similar issues. Seeing as how there are people like me; and seeing as how there are so many douchebag parents; and seeing as how these douchebags would probably be the ones exploiting pro violence vs children laws; I can't for the life of me understand how anyone could ever consider it. | ||
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SaveYourSavior
United States1071 Posts
Your kids aren't going to like you a lot probably for the rest of their lives for getting beaten for whatever reason, whether its to teach a lesson or because the dad is an asshole. A beatings a beating, I've been beat since I was 4 (he karate chopped me into the wall before slapping me around further, my earliest childhood memory). If it's a mild spanking, I think its ok, but the way some families do it, they go all out. My dad behaves this way because his dad did the same to him (and also culture). It's the only thing he knows on how to solve problems, get pissed off and beat the shit out of things and blame everybody else. Whether kids become violent or not as a result of beating is a very difficult thing to study since some kids are already violent, become violent because of other shit, become violent as a result of beating, or mature and become quite mild and nice. To conduct experiences on this to me is absurd because it is difficult to form a control group ( the group with no violence on kids) and a randomly selected group with violence and receive conclusive evidence. No family really raises their kid the same exact way, so many things can go wrong in the experiment that skew the results. There's also genes to think about since people are not really completely the same. Do the results differ on different races such as Asian, Caucasian, etc? Yes we are more similar than we are different but to hear people saying EVERYBODY IS EQUAL is plain dumb because simply, we are not. There's obviously going to be plenty of people that take both sides due to personal experience and whatever. There's more evidence for one side based on so-called scientific studies in a laboratory rather than people in their own homes but in the end, there seems to be no correct answer that applies to everybody. (Not saying that these studies are wrong, it's just that there's really no way to conduct completely effective studies without having secret cameras in people's homes for 15~ years to study their growth). People are different, born with different personalities that their environment can only mold them so much (unless you are chained in a house for 15 years since birth). I have no real evidence to base this on but it seems like people are basically 50% personality and 50% the way society made them Psychology is really a science where you can say a lot of things about how things work and as long as you conduct some studies and base them on "evidence", your statements may be hailed as GENIUS. Sigmund Freud thinks little boys want to fuck their mothers and little girls want to fuck their dads. He based this on the fact that he thinks the kids will be jealous of the dad or mom respectively and want to kill them so they can fuck their parents. FUCKED UP. Despite all the obvious controversy, his views were published!! (he also wrote about other stuff that has some true bearing) This is obviously my personal bias but psychology definitely appeals to me in this way and is probably going to be the career I take if I don't fail at life. | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
Have you ever seen an antisocial person say, "boy, I wish I wasn't so antisocial"? Your point is silly. Ofcourse children can cope with a little spanking, noone is denying that. The point however is that children who are spanked in their childhood are more likely to show antisocial behavior, namely violence, and that this can be easily avoided. I don't think those studies make a distinction between a) severe physical discipline, b) minor physical discipline, and c) minor physical discipline accompanied by rationale/reasoning. Hell, we could take this website as a sample size. We could compare the resident asian population here (since i think 90%+ of them were beaten) and compare with whites who were never physically disciplined (there are quite a few of us i think), and see which group is more physically violent. While the above is somewhat of a jest, i do find it odd that the majority [of teamliquid] have results that conflict with all these 'studies'. It seems common sense to me that it's the entirety of a parent's method of being a parent that is deterministic of whether their child is going to grow up to be successful and/or violent. Receiving a spanking would have far less of an impact on a child than the value system that's handed down. How a child is allowed to eat will have far more impact on them then a light spanking. The TV shows and video games and culture that a child is exposed to will have a far greater impact on them than a spanking. Hell, getting disciplined in FRONT of someone is gonna have a far greater impact on someone's psyche than physical discipline in private would. Are all these factors (plus the millions of others) taken into account in all these studies that show that spanking leads to a greater chance to be violent? My assertation is this: shitty parenting leads to violence. the relevance of 'light spanking' is trivial. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
Author(s): GILESSIMS J, STRAUS MA, SUGARMAN DB Source: FAMILY RELATIONS Volume: 44 Issue: 2 Pages: 170-176 Published: APR 1995 Times Cited: 65 This a great article that sums up the whole thing incredibly well. From the first page: Almost all children in the United States are spanked by their parents at some point in their lives. Spanking as a form of discipline receives support based on religious traditions (Greven, 1991) and widespread beliefs in the positive effects of corporal punishment on children (Graziano & Na- maste, 1990; Straus, 1991); however, research indicates that spanking increases a child's risk of both short- and long- term negative side effects (Straus & Kaufman Kantor, in press). Having been spanked as a child and/or adolescent is related to later psychological problems including an increased chance of being depressed and thinking about suicide (Straus, in press), becoming violent and delinquent (Straus, 1991), and experiencing alienation and lower economic achievement (Straus & Gimpel, 1992; Straus, in press). The quoted studies are are peer reviewed and showed significant statistical differences between spanked and not spanked. @Mora, the severity of the punishment here is defined as what is tolerated by the law, so a little tap, spanking, stuff like that. If it exceeds that it will count as abuse and is not included in the study obviously. | ||
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Uraeus
France1378 Posts
On December 25 2008 08:22 BlackStar wrote: Being humble like a scientist? I am sorry but that makes no sense. Yes it does. Real scientists are humble (or should be) in a sense that they don't gather data in order to prove their point. They have a theory, gather data, and check whether the data confirm their theory or not. If not, they try to come up with a new theory instead of twisting the data so they fit their initial theory. Plus I wasn't being arrogant. Mean, maybe. Not arrogant. You said "I don't care being an asshole because I am the one who is right" or something close. Arrogant. Science is interesting. And if you don't agree you can fuck off. Yes. I have studied sciences for years and I am still really interested in them. Plus I don't see where I said it isn't. One of the things that makes science interesting is the scientists' ability to question themselves and their beliefs. You are obviously lacking this, so further debate is futile. Merry Christmas and good luck with your kids, should you ever have any. PS : insulting people gets you nowhere. This is verbal violence and studies show that using violence to educate people makes them all the more violent. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
On December 25 2008 06:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Suddenly I am the conclusive representative of the overall intelligence of a country of 300 million people? And I am the one who is stupid? what?!?!?Lol. Haven't you learnt your lesson yet? An american is ALWAYS a representative for all other americans when he says something that some non-americans find stupid. That's why people all over the world think america and americans are stupid. Of course, that's stupid too. But that doesn't matter, because no american said it. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
I think hitting kids is damaging later on as well. but say, my dad has a pdh in children psychology. he is also a pacifist, and never hit me during my upbringing. his dad spanked him once, which was after my dad had been part of a group that bullied some jehova's witness family, like chanting shit and throwing stones at their house, obviously really bad shit that my dad knew very well not to do even before my granddad caught him. being spanked like that, once during your upbringing, or maybe even twice or three times, after you are say, 10 years old, capable of discerning right from wrong, yet still grossly misbehaving in a way that conflicts with everything you have been told about how to be a good person, is not going to permanently fuck you up. its not the ideal way to deal with an issue, everything that can be taught through spanking can be taught through conversation and positive/negative rewards, it might be harder, but it is also better because it does not teach the added message that might makes right and that violence is a proper way to deal with things. but being spanked once or twice or thrice during your upbringing after you, as a child, do something you know is grossly wrong, and where the spanking is followed by a lenghty talk and explanation, isnt gonna fuck you up permanently, or at all, it's just slightly less than ideal. the reason why spanking has been outlawed in civilized countries is not this kind of spanking, it's the slippery slope allowing this kind of spanking to exist brings forth. and like, the problem with studies is that, while they certainly show negativity associated with spanking children, there's just different degrees of it you know.. it's impossible to study "will my son become more prone to violence if he is spanked twice during his upbringing and where he was thoroughly explained the reason behind the spanking" because the sample size will be so huge and diverse and spread out over 18 years.. this cannot be accurately scientifically studied.. the problem is, it is provable that being hit many times is much, much worse than not being hit at all, and it is also provable that it is very possible to sufficiently raise a child without ever resorting to violence, this merely requires competence. it is thus logical to assume that being hit some is also worse, just to a smaller level. most of the cases of abused children, those who truly end up scarred for life by the abuse, are hit hundreds if not thousands of times during their childhood. if you make a line between someone who is never hit and someone whom is abused, someone whom is spanked even 10 times during his or her childhood will be significantly closer to the person who is never hit or spanked than to the abused person. | ||
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29 fps
United States5724 Posts
i feel bad for all those who misunderstood incontrol's point about randomly saying "studies show" without any proof. it's the same as saying "statistics show"... i dont see how it was so hard to understand what he wrote. he just wanted those people to cite some evidence instead of randomly spouting "so called" proof as for this thread, NO spanking or ALL spanking... they're both bad, and it really just depends on the child. still nobody has addressed my argument. if you dont spank your child, what do you suggest? talk it out? not always possible. what about those families with language barriers between parent and child? | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
Have you ever watched the discovery channel and hear the zookeeper go: "Well, the way we do it is that if they don't gather the coins and place them in the vending machine, we go in there and break their legs. It takes them awhile to understand what's going on but they get it eventually." Only to hear the narrator conclude: "...and so little Chuaka finally gets his banana. With no bones left to support himself, he has learned a valuable lesson." | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
and either way, spanking without the necessary followup talk is abuse by default. you're not teaching the child anything at all then. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
On December 25 2008 09:26 29 fps wrote: there are some very ignorant posts/people in this thread, such as the guy above me [parasitJonte]. stereotypes persist because people like him keep pushing it along further. Lol. I hope for your sake that you don't mean my post where I explain why it's always valid to hold one american as representative for the entire nation as soon as he says something that you find stupid. Because that was irony/satire (w-ever). | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On December 25 2008 09:03 Frits wrote: Title: CHILD, MATERNAL, AND FAMILY CHARACTERISTICS ASSOCIATED WITH SPANKING Author(s): GILESSIMS J, STRAUS MA, SUGARMAN DB Source: FAMILY RELATIONS Volume: 44 Issue: 2 Pages: 170-176 Published: APR 1995 Times Cited: 65 This a great article that sums up the whole thing incredibly well. From the first page: The quoted studies are are peer reviewed and showed significant statistical differences between spanked and not spanked. @Mora, the severity of the punishment here is defined as what is tolerated by the law, so a little tap, spanking, stuff like that. If it exceeds that it will count as abuse and is not included in the study obviously. Thank you for the reference, it's nearly impossible to hold things in context without one. As towards the specifics of the study, this is where i believe controversy over its validity may still occur. The article discusses frequency - particularly in terms of how many times per week or year that a child is spanked. Seemingly, it discusses incidents where children are spanked more than once a year. Now, i'm inclined to believe that most of the people in this thread are condoning 'fairly regular' spankings (as in they feel it is probably necessary about once a month or more), but by my personal consideration of what is an 'appropriate use of spanking', a person should be spanked no more than 10 times in their lifetime. (from my perspective, the only time that i would ever even contemplate physical discipline is if my child is a) too young to understand reason, and b) has done something that threatens their life without giving them correlating feedback [ie: if they touch a stove, they will get burned and learn their lesson. If they suck on a nozzle of a bottle of chemical cleaner, they may get no negative feedback at all]. By giving them a quick slap on the ass, the memory will be stronger because it is associated with another sensation, and more importantly, will be memorable because it is highly irregular. So the question in my scenario would be: how often do children under the age of 6 - after that, reason should be strong enough - do something that is extremely life threatening and has no immediate negative feedback? Well, i'm guessing under 10) But making claims like 'physical discipline is never the best answer' does not allow for this. It is this hard-line approach that i contest. Moreover, while i'm certain the rest of the people in this thread who are pro-physical discipline are probably so in situations i wouldn't be, it then begs the question: where do you draw the 'hard' line? It is for this reason that the studies are called into question; particularly when there are so many other factors that influence whether a person turns out violent or not. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I think too much scolding is bad just like too much spanking. But like the story of your father I would not rule out spanking entirely as a form of punishment. | ||
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29 fps
United States5724 Posts
On December 24 2008 13:19 Klogon wrote: Which is a good message. And which will make parents think twice between hitting their kids, which is healthy. When even the kid knows this, they know they REALLY crossed the line when they get hit, and sometimes they really did cross that line. Take a step back from the psychological thinking and think instead of it in an economics model. You, the parent, are the government. The kid is the people. In order to best serve the people, you need to set rules. Some people (kids) cross a line that shouldn't be crossed, so negative reinforcement must unfortunately be there in the form of prisons (and in our case, spankings). They are positively reinforced when working hard by a good, steady income. Each child has their own utility functions (or in non-econ lingo, ways of deriving pleasure). And everything has a price to it, may it be an price of time of leisure or cash, or even comfort. By letting the kid know that there is the possibility of negative reinforcement implicitly increases the price of doing such a bad action. For if the personal utility the child gets from doing the bad is greater than the utility of your reward, he'll choose the bad everytime. There are two ways to decrease this gap: increase the price of him doing such activity with negative reinforcement or to increase the reward significantly. Sometimes, both are needed. You can even bring in political science theory into this. Take the stance US takes on Taiwan. The fact that we will not rule out using extreme force in the chance that China gets really aggressive with Taiwan DETERS any action significantly from China to take over Taiwan. Sure, we didn't explicitly say it, but we didn't rule it out. Once the child knows you've ruled out physical punishment, some children may be more bold in what they do because the price they pay is significantly less for such actions. Sure, we can positively reinforce China with economic incentives as the trade will benefit them greatly, but the negative reinforcement helps a lot in keeping them in line. EDIT: The main point is that every child is different. So taking the government example, just because you never murdered anybody doesn't mean we don't need a prison system and life-sentences for people who do. i still think this is the best post. it's not a black and white world with spanking. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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micronesia
United States24680 Posts
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On December 25 2008 05:29 Mora wrote: thanks for this. i was not aware of the distinctions. edit - now that i think about it, if you know the specifics of operant conditioning, then perhaps you have an opinion on the matter? care to share it? Sorry, I haven't time to read the rest of the thread since I am about to eat Christmas (eve) dinner with my family, but here's my brief opinion, based on my basic understanding Spanking is usually not very effective conditioning because it often doesn't happen immediately after the transgression, so the child doesn't make a strong enough association with the transgression and the punishment. Also, acts like spanking and similar ones are usually performed when the parent is angry. Although according to some parenting books, it's ok to spank kids "when you're not angry," it's even worse for conditioning if you wait to cool down. Obviously, a spank on the butt doesn't cause lasting physical damage, but there are better forms. A firm "loud" voice informing children of wrongdoing, telling them what will happen if they repeat is better. The second time of course, you can invoke the previous incident ("this time you can't stay up late and watch the Simpsons") The main problem with spanking is that it is indeed usually done angrily, and raging and angry parents is an irresponsible example for children. I think any rational parent should be able to stay calm and devise more effective methods of punishment, and if there are problems so severe that spanking is considered justified, a professional should probably be called in. Not this part is all speculation, but I think that, barring different cultural views where spanking is the norm, frequent spanking is probably the result of parents who had kids and are insufficiently prepared to deal with transgressions (haven't spent enough time considering it) and don't know what to do and feel their child's behavior is deteriorating dangerously. I will not deny that sometimes kids do things that are just bad, but that doesn't mean the parents can too. My $0.02. One of my professors did a research essay on spanking, and it was then cited in an article in some news journal. I'll try to come up with both if this thread is still active in a few days. Edit: In case my implication was not clear, anything that actually physically hurts a child is right out, aside from being illegal. | ||
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Hippopotamus
1914 Posts
Spanking is usually not very effective conditioning because it often doesn't happen immediately after the transgression, so the child doesn't make a strong enough association with the transgression and the punishment. So you just get done reading about operant conditioning, and then you say that? | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
Also, the sheer amount of douchebaggery in this thread astounds me. On December 24 2008 20:34 Liquid`Drone wrote: the most common arguement "for" spanking children is: "well I was spanked and I turned out just fine" anyone who uses this arguement however, did not turn out fine : for fucks sake, they are advocating hitting their own children. "People who disagree with me are fucked up." Thanks. On December 24 2008 22:31 ManBearPig wrote: I'm amazed at how people won't change their obviously wrong opinions on spanking children, even when studies have been CITED (this does not happen often in discussions on the internet). It just shows how futile arguing on the internet can be. At least in a conversation you can establish a non-dominant way of 'investigating the issue together', so it's not a competition and minds can be swayed. On the internet, it always seems to be about winning. Child spankers: bow before science and admit your defeat. links links links can't do shit without links On December 24 2008 20:27 BlackStar wrote: Statistics are clear. Causation is not correlation. Really, you must be very stupid to even try to make this argument. He's demonstrating the failure of a mechanism to turn kids fucked up, and generally countering the people who say dumb shit like "if you beat your kids they will either be spineless or resentful." Take a look in the mirror. On December 25 2008 04:16 Mora wrote: perhaps if you weren't beaten as a child you'd be better to handle your temper with others' misbehavior. if your responses aren't a clear indication that abuse of children doesn't perpetuate abuse (in your case verbal), then nothing is. Seriously? What the fuck? "Your responses in this thread mean that your parents were terrible people for spanking you and indicate that you are fucked up and likely to abuse your children." On December 25 2008 06:43 BlackStar wrote: Yeah but the debate has ended long long ago. At least among educated people. That's something, isn't it? "People who don't agree with me are retarded." On December 25 2008 09:03 Frits wrote: Title: CHILD, MATERNAL, AND FAMILY CHARACTERISTICS ASSOCIATED WITH SPANKING Author(s): GILESSIMS J, STRAUS MA, SUGARMAN DB Source: FAMILY RELATIONS Volume: 44 Issue: 2 Pages: 170-176 Published: APR 1995 Times Cited: 65 This a great article that sums up the whole thing incredibly well. From the first page: The quoted studies are are peer reviewed and showed significant statistical differences between spanked and not spanked. I would like to know how these studies separate causation and correlation. Maybe shitty parents are more likely to beat their children; has this possibility been accounted for? | ||
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micronesia
United States24680 Posts
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Sawajiri
Austria417 Posts
Different parenting techniques work for different kids. That is why siblings can be so very different from one another. My brother and I are the complete opposite of one another personality-wise and had completely different attitudes and personalities even as toddlers. We were both raised very liberally without ever getting spanked. While he's a manner guy and the technique obviously worked for him, I think a personality such as mine could have profited from a stricter upbringing. So I think parenting is a highly individual thing and that there is no "one-size-fits-all". | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 25 2008 11:06 Sawajiri wrote: I always think these threads are just so pointless. Different parenting techniques work for different kids. That is why siblings can be so very different from one another. My brother and I are the complete opposite of one another personality-wise and had completely different attitudes and personalities even as toddlers. We were both raised very liberally without ever getting spanked. While he's a manner guy and the technique obviously worked for him, I think a personality such as mine could have profited from a stricter upbringing. So I think parenting is a highly individual thing and that there is no "one-size-fits-all". "could have" please stop with the bullshit personal anecdotes guys they are meaningless | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
also, stats only show "generally kids who are beaten do worse" maybe there are kids/parents for whom beating is useful and kids for whom it is not, with more kids for whom it is not if one is to propose a mechanism for turning kids violent then anecdotal evidence demonstrating failure of said mechanism helps detract from the proposition that beating kids is always bad | ||
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ilj.psa
Peru3081 Posts
On December 25 2008 08:29 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: blackstar your posts make me frown and shake my head | ||
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SerpentFlame
415 Posts
On December 25 2008 08:42 Frits wrote: Have you ever seen an antisocial person say, "boy, I wish I wasn't so antisocial"? Yes I have. In fact, it's actually pretty common? If you're referring to those antisocial by choice, it's because they had a choice, which is fundamentally different than the point at hand here (kids don't choose to be spanked). If you're referring to those who are born with some physical deformity or some mental disability that socially handicaps people, then you can ask them if they wished they didn't have them, most of them will say yes. The studies you linked to are about frustration and anger (pscyhological damage) as a child, and as an adult, they'll definitely know that it's present. Right now your argument states that "People who grow up didn't know what's good for them when they were kids", which is kindof ridiculous. Keep in mind that when you reference statistics, many of those who have been spanked are also those who have been abused in some other form that is more severe than spanking, hence the resulting frustration and anger as an adult or whatever. Not to say that your statistics are invalid, but simply saying that you should take them with a grain of salt. Additionally, many spanking households do so out of parental frustration, as opposed to responsible attitudes. Responsible parents make up a far greater proportion of those who do not spank, hence throwing into question whether spanking is the cause for such behavior, or whether it's simply an indication of parental irresponsibility due to a variety of societal factors. Furthermore, the Straus study deals with the intensity and prevelance of spanking, but bases its claims critically on the categories of spanked and nonspanked in various groups of age (<-- not to say that it doesn't deal with chronicity and recurrence, but the conclusion that Straus issues regarding spanking merely looks at the amalgamation of "spanked" into one cateogry). The data given in the study, however, indicates that the negative results that had significant were those that had a high spanking intensity and high spanking prevalence in age groups of 0-4 years of age. The other results in his study with far more moderate spanking show little significant data, and with a lower chronicity of spanking, the data is largely inconclusive. Putting this all into historical context, conservative spankless parenting never took off until the latter half of the century. In America, spanking has been on the decline (from 94 percent in 1960 to 55 percent in 1998 (Welsh 1998), and yet, rates of social aggression and crime rates are increasing in recent years. This at least, indicates that the effects of moderate spanking are relatively inconsequential (obviously, the same cannot be said of excessive physical discipline) In my view, it boils down to spanking as not being bad, but being done at the wrong times. Traditional spanking doesn't look beyond the surface and into the heart of matters, and therefore is sometimes used in the wrong situation. However, I've been unable to find very much information on the subject matter in research databases (a total of three articles on JSTOR( all of which critically originate from Straus), which critically focuses on Western texts as opposed to those of Southeast Asia or the Middle East). If anyone has a reliable article supporting spanking, posting it would be appreciated | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:14 Eskii wrote: Physical discipline is an entirely fine way to deal with your kids. | ||
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strongwind
United States862 Posts
I think parents should utilize some form of discipline within good judgement. It becomes such a pain for teachers to have to do it all themselves. As in this case, the more time a teacher has to deal with raising children, the less time he/she has to actually teach them. edit: oh, and not to mention it drives teachers crazy ^^ | ||
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29 fps
United States5724 Posts
On December 25 2008 11:16 Frits wrote: "could have" please stop with the bullshit personal anecdotes guys they are meaningless how are they meaningless? there isnt one way to raise kids, otherwise we'd all be a lot more similar. if you're trying to be "scientific" about this, those studies are probably based off of people's lives, aka personal anecdotes. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 25 2008 11:46 29 fps wrote: how are they meaningless? there isnt one way to raise kids, otherwise we'd all be a lot more similar. if you're trying to be "scientific" about this, those studies are probably based off of people's lives, aka personal anecdotes. yes 100 anecdotes with similarities = possible to draw meaningful conclusion 1 anecdote = meaningless | ||
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29 fps
United States5724 Posts
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On December 25 2008 10:40 EmeraldSparks wrote: Seriously? What the fuck? "Your responses in this thread mean that your parents were terrible people for spanking you and indicate that you are fucked up and likely to abuse your children." Did you read the whole thread or just skim over parts that you were convicted to retort on? If you had read the rest of my posts in addition to the one you quoted from me you might have been able to figure out that that post was made in jest. perhaps it was just a failing on my part to be funny, but i will reiterate: read the rest of my posts and try responding to those, as they are the ones with actual content. Infact, after re-reading your post, it seems you took more than just my statement out of context. Are you going out of your way to start arguements? I would advocate trying to read someone else's words with the intention of seeing it from their point of view before trying to burn them. If you do not do this, you run the risk of taking things out of context which is bad for discussion. | ||
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Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On December 25 2008 11:14 Frits wrote: They take a population that is pretty much the same on most grounds, from similar environments, with the exception that one population uses physical punishment and the other doesn't. That should prevent any significant error from something like that. If some parents turn out to show behavior that deviates too much from the norm Im sure they just eliminated them from the experiment. the problem with this is that it's not making a distinction between "proper" physical discipline and child abuse. Couldn't you conduct the same study (measuring violence) between 2 different nations, but target one nation that consumes more bananas than another? Would the result not show that bananas statistically indicate that their consumption increases the chance of violence? As far as i know, i don't think anyone has said that senselessly beating your child is better than not spanking a child. (if anyone has said that, ignore them, as that's not the target of your retorts). That's the only issue those studies address. (using 'physical discipline allowed within the law' is not a good measure either, as using physical discipline without follow-up action is legal, but no less senseless.) Until we can scrutinize the specifics of a study, i see no reason to believe causation over correlation. | ||
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SaveYourSavior
United States1071 Posts
On December 25 2008 09:28 ParasitJonte wrote: And by the way. Has anyone brought up monkeys? How do we get monkeys to behave and do as we please (that is, "be good")? Have you ever watched the discovery channel and hear the zookeeper go: "Well, the way we do it is that if they don't gather the coins and place them in the vending machine, we go in there and break their legs. It takes them awhile to understand what's going on but they get it eventually." Only to hear the narrator conclude: "...and so little Chuaka finally gets his banana. With no bones left to support himself, he has learned a valuable lesson." Monkeys aren't the same as people. If you're trying to prove something otherwise than I dunno | ||
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RamenStyle
United States1929 Posts
That crap of reasoning and discussing with your children is bs. First of all, most kids don't understand the way of adult reasoning, and a parent should be an authority figure that guides their children. While it is good that a parent teaches his kid through reason, there are some cases where a NO is a NO, and a parent shouldn't need to justify that choice, mostly because the kid doesn't understand/give a crap about it. For example, when I as a kid got with some buddies of mine and bullied some poor guy at school(I'm talking when I was really young, like 11-12) my school called all of our parents. First, my parents told me it was cowardice and stupid to bully a poor kid, but all I could think was "but it is damn fun, and the guy is a loser, and if I stop doing it, I'm going to lose my friends". Yeah, retarded reasons, not proud of it, but I believe a lot of people can relate to that at that age. We gave him a break, but few days later we went back on track, and this time we were a little bit harsher on him for being a snitch. School called home again, and I got a little hot mouthed telling my parents the other parents were such a pain in the ass, that they said it was just kids playing. My father smacked me in the head, and no more words needed. If I did it again, I knew I'll get punished again. Didn't understand why they wanted to cut my fun, but I didn't do it again(at least to that kid). Now I look back and I know if I was my father, I would have kicked my ass even harder for being such a moron. But at the time, being a kid, I just didn't get that it was that wrong bullying someone. Had my father beat me to the hospital? Very wrong. Smack me once so I stop acting like an idiot? Now I think it was the good choice. Better than having parents that would just let me continue bullying another kid. And I'm in the light side. I know troublesome kids who I honestly believe are just evil, and since they won't give a crap about what their parents tell them, as a kid, maybe physical punishment is the only choice. I hope no one here seriously believes taking him to the shrink at that age will fix anything at all. And just like with studying. I hated studying. When my parents were telling me, if you don't study you won't get to college, you will screw your life, bla bla bla, all I could think was to go out and play with my friends. I know there are some kids who really study hard since they are little kids, but that's a few minority, and most of the time it comes enforced by their parents. I wouldn't listen to my parents, grades failing, and then my parents told me one of the most feared words I've heard. 종아리 걷어. Which is basically, roll up your pants, because we are going to hit the back of your legs with a wooden ruler X times depending on how bad you screwed up. Looking back, I'm glad they did it, otherwise I might be a drop out right now. And like that, so many other examples(I don't even wanna go there when my parents found out I was smoking pot at HS). Maybe the more conservative part of Korean culture can be a little bit extreme on physical punishment, but you get the point. Beating up a kid for the fun of it, or because some piece of shit parents can only take their anger at their kids, I'll be the first to punch their faces. But I don't think spanking your kid when he doesn't listen can be considered abuse. Of course there are some kids that never misbehave and without once in their lives being yelled at by their parents they turn up great. In my case, if I hadn't some discipline from my parents, it scares the shit out of me the thought of what I could have become. Each kid is a different case, but for a lot of them, some physical punishment can be of use, and it's not like it is going to scar them psychologically for life or anything. Of course there are levels of physical punishment, but in my own experience, it hurts, but it might put you in the right track when you are a stubborn punk kid that won't listen to your parents. Hitting your children for no reason is being a mofo. Hitting them for educational purposes can be acceptable at some degree. But no extreme is good. Nor is good beating up your kid so badly that he will have bruises all over his body, even if it is to "educate" him, but it is equally stupid spoiling your kid, telling him something and if he doesn't listen, just letting him be. The result in both ends is bad. My cousin is a misbehaving psycho punk, and when he was in 3rd grade he threw his pencil to the teacher. His parents just warned him verbally. He did it again. Again, they warned him verbally. And so on. Now he is a mofo that I wouldn't give a job even as a janitor. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On December 25 2008 12:39 Mora wrote: Did you read the whole thread or just skim over parts that you were convicted to retort on? If you had read the rest of my posts in addition to the one you quoted from me you might have been able to figure out that that post was made in jest. perhaps it was just a failing on my part to be funny, but i will reiterate: read the rest of my posts and try responding to those, as they are the ones with actual content. Infact, after re-reading your post, it seems you took more than just my statement out of context. Are you going out of your way to start arguements? I would advocate trying to read someone else's words with the intention of seeing it from their point of view before trying to burn them. If you do not do this, you run the risk of taking things out of context which is bad for discussion. I read the entire thread. I had things to say and I said them, mostly about wanting links or text and asking questions about causation, which I saw little of. I also saw quite a bit of stupidity that I wanted to point out. You may have said many insightful, informative things in this thread; unfortunately for you, I can't remember which of the fifty posters in this thread said what things. There was some pretty dumb shit in this thread so excuse me if I didn't realize that that particular post was in jest. | ||
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Underwhelmed
United States207 Posts
On December 25 2008 14:18 RamenStyle wrote: That crap of reasoning and discussing with your children is bs. First of all, most kids don't understand the way of adult reasoning, and a parent should be an authority figure that guides their children. While it is good that a parent teaches his kid through reason, there are some cases where a NO is a NO, and a parent shouldn't need to justify that choice, mostly because the kid doesn't understand/give a crap about it. Maybe if your kid is stupid. It's interesting your idea of an "authority figure" is somebody who the kid obeys unquestioningly because they don't have a choice, instead of somebody they can respect because they are willing to trust their judgment. If you are unable to justify your decisions, they're probably bad ones. Anyways, since so many people are chiming in with the "I WAS BEAT AS A KID AND I'M NOT MALADJUSTED" line, I'll go ahead and admit that my parents used physical punishment, and I was a pretty violent kid (And even as an adult, I'm probably readier to resort to violence than my peers). Did the spankings contribute? I don't know. And as for the people who are claiming these studies can't be trusted by citing incorrect "studies" (I use the term loosely) not subjected to the scientific method or peer review, you are retards. You are free to dispute the study itself (Maybe data was fudged, the methodology used was flawed, whatever), but if you can't identify where exactly that specific study went wrong, you can't just handwave it away with the "STUDIES CAN BE MANIPULATED TO PROVE ANYTHING" line. That is an act of intellectual cowardice. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 25 2008 14:18 RamenStyle wrote: Parents who beat up their kids should be beat up the same, but I'm talking real abuse. That crap of reasoning and discussing with your children is bs. First of all, most kids don't understand the way of adult reasoning, People talk to toddlers eventhough they don't understand a word of it. But guess what, they actually learn to talk this way. No, reasoning children don't understand. But that's exactly why you should do it because they will have to learn it eventually and this is how it is learned. ...and a parent should be an authority figure that guides their children. . Yes. And a parent is. Parents can brainwash children. Children will believe anything a parent tells them if they are young enough. Santa Claus anyone? What about religion? Hell, even spanking is an example. Most people here just accept spanking as proper parental behavior just because their parents spanked them. I mean, no argument has been made as to why spanking teaches a child 'proper' behavior throughout this topic afaik. And no one even tried. How does this have anything to do with applying the incorrect ideas of reenforcement through punishment and reward? No one is proposing that because spanking is wrong parent and child should have an equal relationship. That's not what science has found out and it's totally unrelated with spanking. And even if it happened to be the conclusion of science then you would just be force to accept it or very very probably be very wrong because of blind dogma. The only thing spanking clearly learns the child is that spanking your children is good or at least ok which science has reached a consensus against quite some years ago. And the theories about how cognittive processes develop also explain why this is. Children copy the behavior or their parents in the exact same way as children learn the language of their parents. And yes, language is basically already hardwired in the brain, ignoring specifics. It just needs to be stimulated so it can bloom and develop in the specific way of the parent. Same with morality. At least that's what cognitive science thinks they found out. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
On December 25 2008 13:13 SaveYourSavior wrote: Monkeys aren't the same as people. If you're trying to prove something otherwise than I dunno We're equal enough that it constitutes a valid point. That's why monkeys are a popular research subject - we're family after all. Monkeys ~ children. The main point is that there are other ways of doing things. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:13 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Children need to be disciplined at a young age once they're old enough to understand what they did wrong and one or two good spankings can do wonders in that they're afraid of it happening again. oh my god. USA scares me I wasnt beated or "spanked" when I was little, but my dad often shouted a lot and got very angry for small things we did. And sometimes he did "violent" stuff, not that bad but I was pretty afraid of him. I have been afraid of him a very long time but it stoped when I was around 14 (I'm 16 soon 17 now). Mostly because he's more calm now than before and he can't really do shit to us anymore lol I dont believe in violence or "spanking". It just made me afraid of my dad. T.T | ||
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Epicfailguy
Norway893 Posts
There are a tons of other ways to "punish" a child other than hitting it. Im amazed that people still think hitting your children is a good way to raise it. Stop holding the rest of us back because you're trying to convince yourself that your parents did a good thing. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
And I m surprised about the amount of shit that has been posted so far. Even by people i had high expectations from when it comes to discussing and cognitive abilities. I d like to make a little overview and everyone here can decide with what he agrees so far: (1) Beating or spanking your child regularly is bad and never the right thing to do (2) It is not entirely proven how much spanking/beating a child influences negative behaviour (3) Studies are not always perfectly true but they are more valid than your very own experience [ note: not for yourself but logically for a >general conclusion< ] Who ever does not agree with those 3 statements please say so and explain why. Im interested to hear any logical approach to prove those wrong. We shouldnt start argufing.. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On December 26 2008 01:15 MaGic~PhiL wrote: Eri's post sums it up pretty well. And I m surprised about the amount of shit that has been posted so far. Even by people i had high expectations from when it comes to discussing and cognitive abilities. I d like to make a little overview and everyone here can decide with what he agrees so far: (1) Beating or spanking your child regularly is bad and never the right thing to do (2) It is not entirely proven how much spanking/beating a child influences negative behaviour (3) Studies are not always perfectly true but they are more valid than your very own experience [ note: not for yourself but logically for a >general conclusion< ] Who ever does not agree with those 3 statements please say so and explain why. Im interested to hear any logical approach to prove those wrong. We shouldnt start argufing.. That is very good questions, I agree to all three of them. Will be funny to see if someone actually has logical arguments against this. | ||
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ish0wstopper
Korea (South)342 Posts
or just not feeding them. they'll get hungry. | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
*Sigh*. As said before, don't judge a whole country by what one, or a few, people say; or even by how the laws may be written in some states. You probably never do that with any other country. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On December 25 2008 16:34 Underwhelmed wrote: Maybe if your kid is stupid. It's interesting your idea of an "authority figure" is somebody who the kid obeys unquestioningly because they don't have a choice, instead of somebody they can respect because they are willing to trust their judgment. If you are unable to justify your decisions, they're probably bad ones. It's pretty easy to justify parenting decisions to other adults. It's harder to explain them to a twelve-year-old; see this thread for tons of anecdotal evidence (somebody feel free to present a study that says only in the minority of cases can one not swiftly reason a child into line,) like the kid who bullies other kids or the kid who throws things at the teacher or who screams for an hour at the mall. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On December 26 2008 02:08 ParasitJonte wrote: *Sigh*. As said before, don't judge a whole country by what one, or a few, people say; or even by how the laws may be written in some states. You probably never do that with any other country. That was a joke to see how badly I was going to get flamed. Worked out good imo | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
Beating children is perfectly fine within reason. Fetch me that belt over there~ | ||
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FXOTheoRy
United States519 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:32 CharlieMurphy wrote: If you don't beat your kids, they will be faggots. my parents didn't beat me. i think that means im a faggot : [ | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
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Uraeus
France1378 Posts
On December 26 2008 01:15 MaGic~PhiL wrote: Eri's post sums it up pretty well. And I m surprised about the amount of shit that has been posted so far. Even by people i had high expectations from when it comes to discussing and cognitive abilities. I d like to make a little overview and everyone here can decide with what he agrees so far: (1) Beating or spanking your child regularly is bad and never the right thing to do (2) It is not entirely proven how much spanking/beating a child influences negative behaviour (3) Studies are not always perfectly true but they are more valid than your very own experience [ note: not for yourself but logically for a >general conclusion< ] Who ever does not agree with those 3 statements please say so and explain why. Im interested to hear any logical approach to prove those wrong. We shouldnt start argufing.. Thanks for summing the whole thread appropriately. I entirely agree with your 3 points. However, I think that subject could hardly be less controversial. Raising kids has been a huge concern for ages, and this debate has always been passionnate. I couldn't count the number of psychologists who are almost stars in France because they write books or make show on how to raise your kids "properly" (whatever that means). There are trends in psychology like everywhere else. These days, the most popular pedopsychologists seem to be leaning towards a "zero constrainst for the kid" behavior. I.e : don't force them to do them homework or eat spinach or tidy their room if they don't feel like it. Of course they are strongly against any kind of physical violence. I personnally think boundaries should be set. Just because you cannot live in a society without constrainsts. Some kids have obviously been raised this way and behave like assholes in public => FAILURE Then how to teach these boundaries? I think violence is NOT a good way, but I cannot blame the parents who occasionnally lose their temper (and by that I mean a light slapping, not a real beating which I think is wrong in every imaginable way and not justifiable) I think it is easy to criticize when you have never been a parent yourself. I hope I can raise my children without ever hitting them, but I don't say I will. | ||
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Sprite
United States1015 Posts
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
I don't think beating is ever right but I don't consider spanking a child or backhanding a teenage son who just did/said something REALLY bad/disrespectful is a "beating". I plan on trying spanking on my young kids with this method: 1. They do something they KNOW is bad 2. You tell them to go to their room 3. You agree with your wife that spanking is best (if wife not home, you cool off, then decide) 4. You tell the kid what they did wrong, then spank with your hand on bare buttocks (use your hand so you know how hard you are hitting) 5. Hold the child while they cry until they are better. 6. Ask them to explain why they were spanked. 7. Tell them you love them and hope they don't do that bad thing again. 8. Be extra nice to them the next day. There you go. My master plan. Hopefully it works. I also plan on using "timeouts". Depends on the kid and the offense. | ||
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EscPlan9
United States2777 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:23 shavingcream66 wrote: not to generalize or anything, but coming from an Asian household, I think its safe to say that almost all asian kids get physically disciplined. Negative reinforcement is preferred over positive reinforcement. Not being racist, just sharing my 2cents here negative reinforcement- "if you don't get straight A's, then you get [a punishment]" positive reinforcement- "if you do get straight A's, then you get [a reward] On a slight tangent... this is a common misunderstanding of what negative reinforcement is. Both positive and negative reinforcement increase the frequency of doing the acts. However, with negative reinforcement, the act is reinforced through removal of an aversive stimulus. For instance, many times I wake up a few minutes before my alarm is about to go off. Instead of letting the alarm go off, I'll shut off my alarm to avoid having to be bothered by its sound. Positive and negative punishment both reduce the frequency of doing the acts. With positive, you add an aversive stimulus (such as beating kids), and with negative you remove a positive stimulus (such as grounding you, not allowing you to watch TV, etc). | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 26 2008 17:16 Cambium wrote: There's nothing wrong with beating a kid. This shit is pretty normal by Chinese standards, and we all grew up fine... I think/hope Something is wrong with you. You think there's nothing wrong with beating kids. That's something wrong and quite an anomaly. Maybe it was caused by you being beaten. Hey, copying your parents behavior and morality, that's exactly what one would expect if applying modern understanding of the development of personality. We know positive and negative reinforcement can't do anything beyond modifying genetic traits already present and is mostly harmful in trying to teach children. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
On December 26 2008 17:16 Cambium wrote: There's nothing wrong with beating a kid. This shit is pretty normal by Chinese standards, and we all grew up fine... I think/hope What are you kidding? They put people in prison there for speaking their mind. No sorry, I'm just kidding; I don't think that has anything to do with spanking of children ;p. | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5094 Posts
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ilistis
United States828 Posts
On December 26 2008 12:17 Savio wrote: In my opinion, no punishment of kids should be done in order to satisfy the parents' need to communicate anger, whether it be yelling or spanking. I don't think beating is ever right but I don't consider spanking a child or backhanding a teenage son who just did/said something REALLY bad/disrespectful is a "beating". I plan on trying spanking on my young kids with this method: 1. They do something they KNOW is bad 2. You tell them to go to their room 3. You agree with your wife that spanking is best (if wife not home, you cool off, then decide) 4. You tell the kid what they did wrong, then spank with your hand on bare buttocks (use your hand so you know how hard you are hitting) 5. Hold the child while they cry until they are better. 6. Ask them to explain why they were spanked. 7. Tell them you love them and hope they don't do that bad thing again. 8. Be extra nice to them the next day. There you go. My master plan. Hopefully it works. I also plan on using "timeouts". Depends on the kid and the offense. Yeah, it would be pretty stupid as a kid to get smacked and then wondering why the farg it happened. So I'm guessing physical discipline is your last resort? | ||
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b3h47pte
United States1317 Posts
Beat your kid they need it. | ||
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Hittegods
Stockholm4641 Posts
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
i will beat. this is the path to success | ||
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MuR)Ernu
Finland768 Posts
It works, it's not even supposed to hurt that much. Then after that you don't even have to like ever discipline them that way again, if they learnt the lesson. Though physical discipline is supposed to be the last resort | ||
KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
On December 24 2008 12:24 Resonance wrote: And CharlieMurphy, that is by far the dumbest and ignorant comment I have ever read on this site. Read a book. WHOOOOSH! | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2748 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 27 2008 06:41 Navane wrote: physical discipline is ok! Except it's against the law. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
We don't do it to animals, other adults or old people who've grown senile. It's just flat out retarded. | ||
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baal
10541 Posts
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On December 26 2008 20:16 BlackStar wrote: Something is wrong with you. You think there's nothing wrong with beating kids. That's something wrong and quite an anomaly. Maybe it was caused by you being beaten. Hey, copying your parents behavior and morality, that's exactly what one would expect if applying modern understanding of the development of personality. We know positive and negative reinforcement can't do anything beyond modifying genetic traits already present and is mostly harmful in trying to teach children. Usually when you're making arguments in a thread you don't use the premise that you're already right as support for what you say. | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On December 26 2008 22:47 ilistis wrote: Yeah, it would be pretty stupid as a kid to get smacked and then wondering why the farg it happened. So I'm guessing physical discipline is your last resort? Yes, I would prefer to use "time-outs". But I would consider spanking if the child didn't think timeout was much of a punishment. | ||
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TeCh)PsylO
United States3552 Posts
On December 27 2008 10:56 Savio wrote: Yes, I would prefer to use "time-outs". But I would consider spanking if the child didn't think timeout was much of a punishment. "Spanking" is typically just hard enough to get the kids attention, and at some point they don't care about that anymore either. I have found taking things away, whether it be objects(toys,videos games, etc) or experiences (going to the park, movies, playing with friends, etc..) to be the best method to deal with behavior issues. When I was a kid my mom always said with freedom comes responsibility. I don't think I figured out what that meant until I was a teenager, but that is my philosophy with my kids. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Mannequin
Canada131 Posts
I think beating your kids for not getting A's on there report cards is just wrong sometimes kids struggle with diffrent things, there not a pinata that if you smack them enough times A's will come out, and hitting your kids with weapons? Seriously come on your hand is enough, i guess if you want your kid to hate you go for the metal pipe. Generally i think its ok with restrictions, but you can't just hit a kid for no real reason, and when you see red I think that should be like a little stop sign on the ass saying ok STOP. | ||
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Mannequin
Canada131 Posts
On December 24 2008 11:15 Mastermind wrote: People like you should be smacked for not smacking your kids. I dont want to hear the little shits whining in public. Please learn to respect others. Letting your kid whine for an hour in public until it is too tired to whine is so wrong. I hope you never have kid if you call a baby a little shit for crying. | ||
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StrikeFLOW
United States369 Posts
Your child does something stupid, you need to punish him. You tell him to bend over, and you take your hand and spank him a few times. (You need to make it memorable, or else he/she will forget, but you do not want to make him/her afraid. Being afraid is when you do not know what to expect. If you come home from work and your child is cowering in the corner, you're doing it wrong.) You pull your child into your arms after you spank; you calm him/her down. You tell him: I don't like doing this to you. I love you though. You must not do that again. I am bigger, stronger, older, smarter than you. Please, listen to me... I love you. You hug him/her tightly, and you forgive him. the end. | ||
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ktp
United States797 Posts
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Dyllyn
Singapore670 Posts
On December 27 2008 12:51 StrikeFLOW wrote: This is how I imagine laying it out..... Your child does something stupid, you need to punish him. You tell him to bend over, and you take your hand and spank him a few times. (You need to make it memorable, or else he/she will forget, but you do not want to make him/her afraid. Being afraid is when you do not know what to expect. If you come home from work and your child is cowering in the corner, you're doing it wrong.) You pull your child into your arms after you spank; you calm him/her down. You tell him: I don't like doing this to you. I love you though. You must not do that again. I am bigger, stronger, older, smarter than you. Please, listen to me... I love you. You hug him/her tightly, and you forgive him. the end. Every year, on christmas eve, me and my family go to a friend's house for a big christmas dinner. However, i only remember one of these dinners from before i was a teenager. it was when i was around 8, and being a total douche or something at the party, i can't remember. anyway, my parents got really angry with me, so they took me home, made me take off my pants, and caned me a few times. it pretty much went along the lines of what strikeflow said. and from that day on. i stopped being stupid at parties n social gatherings and shit this is a testimonial... beating your kids works. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
(ofc crazy shit like beating your kid until your hands hurt or using a lead pipe is right out, i'm supposing eminently reasonable physical punishment here) | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 27 2008 13:15 GenericTerranPlayer wrote: this is a testimonial... beating your kids works. Hilarious. If I look at the horizon I don't see a sphere. It's not round at all. Just a straight line. The earth is flat. Usually when you're making arguments in a thread you don't use the premise that you're already right as support for what you say. I was not making an argument. I thought that was pretty clear. | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
The point is, it works. You say there are other ways, but my way still works. And it works well. And my kids will not have psychological damage because of it. Thus if my way has a higher chance of bringing out better, more responsible and caring people out of my children, my way is the way to go because the observable behavior effectively changes without long-term damage. | ||
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BlackCafe
Vietnam69 Posts
But in hands of shitty parents whose drunk and just want to beat their kids for fun, its gonna produce some future cons for the social to deal with | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
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rKos
Finland131 Posts
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
Sometimes, you just have to bust a beer bottle over their sweet little heads. Or at least spank them. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
but in asia, blind obedience is cherished through all society. an asian boss has considerably more power over his employees (also responsibility) than what is the case in western societies. this can all be connected with how the different cultures raise their children.. | ||
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zizou21
United States3683 Posts
=[ | ||
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inReacH
Sweden1612 Posts
On December 27 2008 09:37 baal wrote: id treat my children as individuals capable of reason, understanding and thought, not as animals who only respond by physical pain. thats what you say now but i've seen you lose your temper in act 5 of LOD if we are neighbors i'm gonna tell my kids to watch their shit around you | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On December 27 2008 12:32 Mannequin wrote: I hope you never have kid if you call a baby a little shit for crying. a kid crying because he doesn't get his way in public is a little shit. | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
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Yogurt
United States4258 Posts
beating is abusing kids for no reason, call it a spanking or something, beating just sounds bad | ||
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Creationism
China505 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On December 28 2008 19:29 Creationism wrote: if beating the shit out of him is what it takes to teach him that, then thats what you must do. Of course principles of psychology say that isn't possible. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
For that reason I think it's useless to throw up studies. I'm not saying that the people who do these studies are stupid; just that they are dealing with an incredibly hard subject. I would instead suggest we make it a political/ideological battle. My core belief, then, would be that no human should ever be physically abused (beaten, spanked etc.) against his or her will. There's no need for studies. It's just as simple as that. Besides, the general pattern for the pro-beating people seem to be something like: "Well, at first you should try to talk to them; but when it doesn't work you have to smack them". That's just a poor argument. "Well, at first you should try to study, but if that doesn't work just cheat." | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On December 28 2008 19:31 BlackStar wrote: Of course principles of psychology say that isn't possible. "That isn't possible" is a blanket statement that can be empirically demonstrated to be false with one piece of anecdotal evidence "this one time my parents beat me when I was small and I learned my place," anywhere, at any time. Are you willing to assert that no-one, nowhere, can honestly say such a thing? On December 28 2008 19:56 ParasitJonte wrote: "Well, at first you should try to study, but if that doesn't work just cheat." The inherent badness of spanking is presupposed in making this analogy. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
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brambolius
Netherlands448 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:12 mahnini wrote: shitstorm incoming /thread | ||
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micronesia
United States24680 Posts
On December 28 2008 18:11 Yogurt wrote: i just have a problem with physical discipline being called beating beating is abusing kids for no reason, call it a spanking or something, beating just sounds bad Obviously this biggest problem with discussions on this topic are how we define things like 'beating' and I also get frustrated. | ||
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Fzero
United States1503 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
Only cultural issue is if you want to teach your child to solve problems through force/violence or not. I mean, if you are 'strong' it works and morality may very well be irrelevant. Especially if you consider cultures since morality is often part of that. | ||
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
On December 24 2008 10:23 shavingcream66 wrote: not to generalize or anything, but coming from an Asian household, I think its safe to say that almost all asian kids get physically disciplined. Negative reinforcement is preferred over positive reinforcement. Not being racist, just sharing my 2cents here negative reinforcement- "if you don't get straight A's, then you get [a punishment]" positive reinforcement- "if you do get straight A's, then you get [a reward] I used to get beat with sticks and my friends got beat with metal pipes (not too hard, doesn't shatter bones) edit: haha i remember how sometimes my cousin would come to school with bruises down her arms but we were told to say that we "fell down" if someone asked This is incorrect. Negative reinforcement is taking away something to make a behavior stick (this is also the hardest to give an example of), but it would be something like taking an internet spying device off your kids computer if he's doing well. Positive reinforcement is adding something that will make a behavior stay, like giving candy, or porn. Positive punishment is adding something that will cause a behavior to become extinct, like a spanking. Negative punishment removes something, like the use of a computer or a car. Positive and negative punishment/reinforcement work equally, however punishment doesn't teach someone how to act, so while they won't behave in the way that would get them punished, they may act in a different way that gets them punished. In general, punishing a child doesn't teach them how to act, it teaches them how not to act. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
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Naib
Hungary4843 Posts
On December 28 2008 11:37 CharlieMurphy wrote: a kid crying because he doesn't get his way in public is a little shit. Sheesh CM, I always knew that you were not too bright seeing your post history, but you took it to a whole new level with this thread. I feel sorry for your future wife (if there'd be any). | ||
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naonao
United States847 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On December 28 2008 18:06 Klogon wrote: Just because he's a child does not make it acceptable behavior. This man speaks the truth | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On December 29 2008 09:45 Naib wrote: Sheesh CM, I always knew that you were not too bright seeing your post history, but you took it to a whole new level with this thread. I feel sorry for your future wife (if there'd be any). I like how everyone always uses the same insult whenever they disagree with me. I feel sorry for your wuss mentality. | ||
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TeCh)PsylO
United States3552 Posts
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micronesia
United States24680 Posts
On December 29 2008 10:22 TeCh)PsylO wrote: How many of you even have children? Theorizing about how to raise a child and actually doing it are very different. This is so true. Most people who argue about this topic don't realize what being a parent is actually like and are just talking big. | ||
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Proposal
United States1310 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On December 29 2008 11:51 Proposal wrote: I think we mostly talk about our parents and how they raised us. Which is completely biased. I have actually baby sat 2-6 year olds before and sometimes they just need a smack when timeout and other shit doesn't work. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
On December 28 2008 19:56 ParasitJonte wrote: "Well, at first you should try to study, but if that doesn't work just cheat." The inherent badness of spanking is presupposed in making this analogy. That's a valid point. However, you use the word "spanking" whereas I would prefer that we simply stick to physical violence. And yes, I think physical violence has an inherent badness. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On December 29 2008 12:42 CharlieMurphy wrote: Which is completely biased. I have actually baby sat 2-6 year olds before and sometimes they just need a smack when timeout and other shit doesn't work. The fact that you babysit is disturbing. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On December 29 2008 07:47 BlackStar wrote: Anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron. Wrong. | ||
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unknown.sam
Philippines2701 Posts
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vAltyR
United States581 Posts
Obviously, as with everything, moderation is key. If the first thing you do when a kid does something wrong is spanking, then you're doing something wrong. | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
I'm not saying that the occasional spank (note, not spanking, i.e. extended session) or slap on the hand is out of line (although I would never recommend either), but anything beyond that is completely unnecessary in my eyes. Once a child is old enough to converse with, there is even less justification for physical discipline as explanation and teaching becomes entirely possible and appropriate. At that point you explain why something is bad, beyond the reason that it will lead to getting hit. Again, this is just my opinion based upon my personal experiences and what I've seen or heard of others' experiences. I'm certainly not going to pretend I understand the difficulties involved in parenting, I appreciate that it's the most difficult and important job most adults will ever have. However, because of that, I think it's important for people to look beyond what works argument, and think about what works best. Both physical and non-physical discipline can be effective, but I think we can all agree that non-physical is preferable so long as it works. As such, I don't think any parent should ever go in with physical discipline as their chosen method before seriously attempting non-physical discipline to the best of their abilities. Any good parent would loathe the idea of inflicting pain upon a child, so why do so unnecessarily? P.S. My parents never resorted to physical discipline (closest was my dad slamming his hand on the table to scare us and let us know we were stepping out of line), and both my brother and I grew up very aware of what was right and wrong, and never got into any serious trouble. My parents taught us what was right and wrong while we were growing up, through words and by example, and my brother and I appreciated and loved my parents enough to respect them and not do things that would upset or disappoint them. Not saying that this confirms that there is no justification for physical discipline, but I thought I'd provide at least one more example of non-physical discipline being very effective. I firmly believe that loving and attentive parents who take the time to teach their kids will never need to resort to physical discipline, and will always get better results than those who do use it. Physical discipline is often (not always) used to compensate for a lack of care or attention. | ||
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