NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
Facts don't determine the winner or losers, or even the motivation to war harder.
Exactly my point. If you actually re-read my posts you'll see that what I'm saying is that those claims are made by Putin's Russia. And many millions of people believe that as much as you believe your story. And there is no way to change the minds of believers. Or at least very very hard as it becomes their identity and their ego cannot accept anything else
Back when NS blew up I'm sure there would be been people 100% sure that Russians did it. And would've argued to no end that anyone saying it's not Russians is a Russian propaganda. They were wrong. Just like now you should be able to realise that some of your beliefs could be wrong.
It really is a staple of not having a good argument that people drop down to talking about how arguments work mechanically, same thing happened in the Palestine thread.
It is obvious that anyone "could be wrong" at all times, that's how making factual claims work. Now what you get to do with that is, if you think the claim is wrong, show why you think that, and then we discuss it. Or, if you think the claim is right, agree with it. Amazing, isn't it?
There's already a problem in the way you are presenting your arguments because when you talked about Russians you asserted that truth doesn't matter and what mattered was that they believed in their story, and now you're talking about us and suddenly truth matters again and we need to realize that we could be wrong for some nebulous reason.
Guys if you havn't noticed I'm choosing my words very carefully because if god forbid I say anything against the narrative in this thread I will get attacked hard. Even with me being carefully staying in line Im still getting attacked. These are some of the quotes in my short few pages of discussion i got told
"Russian propaganda." "random 60 posts account wakes up from the dead and start short posting until it gets banned" "If Russia was a dog I’d shoot it. " "Russia spit in it's face." "You're literally just making things up." "guess you got tired with the bullshit facade, mask off? ;-) " "how fucking naive our leaders" "Russian puppets like AfD or Konfederacja" "your nonsense is nonsense...Russia has lost" "Putin's wet dream" "narcissists and psychopaths " "Russian troll you are"
Im a bit too scared to even start to say anything against the narrative because id probably get much much worse abuse here. And this is what the attitude of the west is to Russia. A moral high ground.I even see it in debates that I watch like on Piers Morgan Uncensored. Where a russian tries to convey his points and the americans and europeans straight up just laugh at him and berate him. Theres no way to have a conversation. Now you will say oh but what about you the bad guy, you invaded ukraine, but how can you say that when USA and UK has invaded and had coups in pretty much every country on earth and everyone is still doing diplomacy with USA, so this argument doesnt hold up with me.
I just wanted to let you know what its like to even enter a thread like this from an opposing perspective. An opposing perspective that has millions if not billions of people that live outside of the western countries. They are all wrong and the west is morally higher?
Anyway, please flame away, im surely gonna get owned for this post.
Well yeah. Because Russia is invading their neighbour for no reason other than to conquer them. They are bombing civilian populations and infrastructure regularly. Whereever they got pushed out of any area, horrific abuses of the civilian population were found. It is really not hard to have the moral high ground here. Russia is obviously and objectively the bad guy here.
I kinda don't get where the "opposing perspective" is here. Do you dispute that that is what Russia is doing? Or do you dispute that it is a bad thing to do?
Also, a lot of people here are also very against the US invading other countries. But this is not the "US is invading other country" thread, this is the "Russia is invading Ukraine" thread, so it is not really a topic here. There is also a difference between having done a thing in the past, and doing a thing right now.
Feel free to go back to the Iraq/Afghanistan war treads here and you won't find many people defending the US there... Well, you will find a few, it's mostly the conservatives that are now loving to protect Russia.
Oh and.. Yes, the west is morally so superior to Russia, it isn't even a contest. Abu Grahib wouldn't even make the news in Russia.
Russia has no points to make in this conflict, it is the agressor with obvious genocidal intent, the stated goal is to wipe Ukraine from the map and destroy Ukrainian culture.
I kinda don't get where the "opposing perspective" is here.
Ive just posted the perspective of Putin and the Elites around him and their attitude towards events leading up to and following ukraine invasion (including propaganda that they feed to the russian population and any other nations) and still i copped all those quotes from above. If i try to explain the reasons putin invaded ukraine it'd be worse, there wont be a civil discussion.
Oh no, the propagandist defending imperialist fascist Russia is pretending to be a victim, how original.
Buddy, if you come here and post obvious and clear lies you are going to get shat on, especially if you continue ignoring requests to provide sources for your shitty propaganda.
In the case of Ukraine, who decided to side with the West when their puppet president tried to re-neg on his EU promises and got removed by a popular movement, yes, the West does have the moral high ground, it's helping a sovereign state defend it's own borders.
Telling you that you are a liar and spreading propaganda is not flaming you, it's stating facts.
ETisME also posts his pro-Russian bs but no one flames him because he at least attempts to argue in good faith. You are, just like Zeo just regurgitating lies and pretending to be a victim, so you get treated accordingly.
It all boils down to reciprocity. "what would happen if we turn the table".
If Serbia had the same laws as Russia, Zeo would currently be sitting in jail for many years for what he has written here. We all would be sitting in jail in Russia. Yet somehow, Zeo would be free in any country he so thoroughly hates.
@spets1 if you post something out of line, you will be warned or banned. If it hasn't been warned or banned, we have considered it fair conversation. You join in the discussion a bit late, and we have been through this discussion of understanding Russia from it's leaders eyes and it always end up in some useless arguments.
This video is from 2018 and tells you everything about what you need to know on that subject.
Anyone in currently living in Russia should even avoid reading this thread, no matter their opinion even supporting Putin is not enough to keep you safe from the "reading western propaganda".
I kinda don't get where the "opposing perspective" is here.
Ive just posted the perspective of Putin and the Elites around him and their attitude towards events leading up to and following ukraine invasion (including propaganda that they feed to the russian population and any other nations) and still i copped all those quotes from above. If i try to explain the reasons putin invaded ukraine it'd be worse, there wont be a civil discussion.
We know the perspective of Russia. Everyone here can acknowledge what their perspective is. Its just that it is black and white ethically and morally wrong.
A serial killer also thinks they are in the right, that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop them from ever killing someone again.
I kinda don't get where the "opposing perspective" is here.
Ive just posted the perspective of Putin and the Elites around him and their attitude towards events leading up to and following ukraine invasion (including propaganda that they feed to the russian population and any other nations) and still i copped all those quotes from above. If i try to explain the reasons putin invaded ukraine it'd be worse, there wont be a civil discussion.
What you don't seem to understand is that yes, we know what Putin and his Cronies say. People just don't think it is a valid or ethical way of thinking, and often don't even believe that they believe what they are saying, because it tends to change a lot, and is always a convenient excuse.
Just because I could post Hitlers stated reasons to invade Poland (they attacked us first!) doesn't make that a valid or believable position, and if I posted those reasons without contextualization, i could also expect to get some flak. To me, Putins invasion of Ukraine has similar ethical standing as the German behaviour in 1939.
I kinda don't get where the "opposing perspective" is here.
Ive just posted the perspective of Putin and the Elites around him and their attitude towards events leading up to and following ukraine invasion (including propaganda that they feed to the russian population and any other nations) and still i copped all those quotes from above. If i try to explain the reasons putin invaded ukraine it'd be worse, there wont be a civil discussion.
You haven’t. Putin doesn’t believe that ethnic Russians were being massacred. He knows better than that.
I kinda don't get where the "opposing perspective" is here.
Ive just posted the perspective of Putin and the Elites around him and their attitude towards events leading up to and following ukraine invasion (including propaganda that they feed to the russian population and any other nations) and still i copped all those quotes from above. If i try to explain the reasons putin invaded ukraine it'd be worse, there wont be a civil discussion.
Don't worry the discussions on this forum are rarely civil, you won't stand out. Until you do I'll have to assume that you have no good justifications for what Putin is doing and you're trying to hide that fact behind the lack of civility.
I kinda don't get where the "opposing perspective" is here.
Ive just posted the perspective of Putin and the Elites around him and their attitude towards events leading up to and following ukraine invasion (including propaganda that they feed to the russian population and any other nations) and still i copped all those quotes from above. If i try to explain the reasons putin invaded ukraine it'd be worse, there wont be a civil discussion.
You'll get abused either way. You might at least have the moral courage to say what you really think.
Alright this is what I think. Been thinking really in my head whats the best way for Europe to go forward with the current situation:
First eu as a collective needs to understand that Putin's Russia is brainwashed enough that they will not give up the fight. And throughout all Russian history Russians always endured a truckload of pain and suffering under their own corrupt leadership starting with Grozny and currently with Putin and all the wars, Napoleon, hitler, polish wars, Baltic wars, Mongols etc. they always fight and never give up even if it means dieing for the motherland.
So now that almost every country is in NATO they need to come up with some kind of agreement that will give some land to Russia from Ukraine. Because the Russians won't give up. Then keep some part of Ukraine neutral, ie no army , no NATO as a buffer zone between EU and Russia. This set up will allow the killing to stop. And also set up a safety zone between the west/NATO and Russia. And to keep the Putin mafia happy
Then for security guarantees EU needs to pump up their military. So that Russia won't invade anyone again.
Then EU needs to go back and buy Russian gas and oil because that's the cheapest and most efficient option. Otherwise EU will become uncompetitive in the world markets. Because energy is everything going forwards. No cheap energy means you will be dominated by others that have access to cheap energy. Ie US and China and even India maybe(Alternative energy is end goal but that's like 50 years away). This is what US elites and Chinese want. Weak Europe.
I believe it's not in the interest of eu to keep fighting against Russia because even if Putin's regime will fall, another or even worse one will come around from the mafia that runs Russia.
Or worse if Russia is losing then Putin will launch all his nukes and nuke everyone. He did say if there's no Russia, then there's no point of having a world.
Russia doesn’t want some Ukrainian land. Your proposed peace solution is one that has been vetoed by Russia many times. You have a profound misunderstanding of Russian war aims and your posts are pointless until you spend the time to correct it.
Within your historical examples of Russians never giving up, always fighting for their lands, never surrendering, you’re giving examples of both Russia and Ukraine. They date back to when Muscovy was part of greater Ukraine and through the history of the Russian Empire. You’re arguing that history proves that the people living there will never ever surrender land, they will fight forever to keep their territory, and therefore those same people need to give up land for peace. Khrushchev was Ukrainian, would he have surrendered land for peace? Would Brezhnev?
In any event this insistence that Russia never gives up land and never surrenders somehow ignores their huge surrender of territory to Germany in 1917. It’s a myth. It’s simply not true.
Why exactly did Russia have to attack Ukraine? It not being willing to give up, is not any sort of argument.
Also, such an agreement was in place, Russia violated it when invading the Krym and hasn't stopped since. If Ukraine, a sovereign country, decides it wants closer ties with the EU, thats not Russias business. Nato wasn't seriously on the table before Russia attacked.
I don't mind one bit paying a little more for Gas if it hurts Russia. And in a few years Europe will have enough alternative sources so Russia won't matter anymore and can have a jolly good time being a gas station for China/India.
Also, despite how horrible the US invasion of Iraq was, I don't recall the US stating their goal is to constantly occupy and take Iraq for itself.
On August 25 2025 22:49 spets1 wrote: Alright this is what I think. Been thinking really in my head whats the best way for Europe to go forward with the current situation:
First eu as a collective needs to understand that Putin's Russia is brainwashed enough that they will not give up the fight. And throughout all Russian history Russians always endured a truckload of pain and suffering under their own corrupt leadership starting with Grozny and currently with Putin and all the wars, Napoleon, hitler, polish wars, Baltic wars, Mongols etc. they always fight and never give up even if it means dieing for the motherland.
So now that almost every country is in NATO they need to come up with some kind of agreement that will give some land to Russia from Ukraine. Because the Russians won't give up. Then keep some part of Ukraine neutral, ie no army , no NATO as a buffer zone between EU and Russia. This set up will allow the killing to stop. And also set up a safety zone between the west/NATO and Russia. And to keep the Putin mafia happy
Then for security guarantees EU needs to pump up their military. So that Russia won't invade anyone again.
Then EU needs to go back and buy Russian gas and oil because that's the cheapest and most efficient option. Otherwise EU will become uncompetitive in the world markets. Because energy is everything going forwards. No cheap energy means you will be dominated by others that have access to cheap energy. Ie US and China and even India maybe(Alternative energy is end goal but that's like 50 years away)
I believe it's not in the interest of eu to keep fighting against Russia because even if Putin's regime will fall, another or even worse one will come around from the mafia that runs Russia.
Or worse if Russia is losing then Putin will launch all his nukes and nuke everyone. He did say if there's no Russia, then there's no point of having a world.
[
Weird. I think Russia's brainwashed population is currently not fighting. They have a part of the population fighting for them, the difference is very important. You know where Russian soldiers come from and it is not from Moscow or Saint-Petersbourg.
Why would you think EU needs to go buy back Russian oil when it is Russian oil that put the world in the current state in the first place.
I believe you about the fear of the power vacuum created by Putin's fall, old men dies naturally anyway. (side note, wouldn't it had been hilarious if Putin or Trump had died of natural cause while together in that car). We never saw much weird confusion when Prigozhin turned towards Moscow people realizing instead of Putin, there might be a worst person. It's like any horror movies, they are scary until they show the villain. That video I posted explained this very well, have you had the chance to watch it?
On August 25 2025 22:49 spets1 wrote: Alright this is what I think. Been thinking really in my head whats the best way for Europe to go forward with the current situation:
First eu as a collective needs to understand that Putin's Russia is brainwashed enough that they will not give up the fight. And throughout all Russian history Russians always endured a truckload of pain and suffering under their own corrupt leadership starting with Grozny and currently with Putin and all the wars, Napoleon, hitler, polish wars, Baltic wars, Mongols etc. they always fight and never give up even if it means dieing for the motherland.
So now that almost every country is in NATO they need to come up with some kind of agreement that will give some land to Russia from Ukraine. Because the Russians won't give up. Then keep some part of Ukraine neutral, ie no army , no NATO as a buffer zone between EU and Russia. This set up will allow the killing to stop. And also set up a safety zone between the west/NATO and Russia. And to keep the Putin mafia happy
Then for security guarantees EU needs to pump up their military. So that Russia won't invade anyone again.
Then EU needs to go back and buy Russian gas and oil because that's the cheapest and most efficient option. Otherwise EU will become uncompetitive in the world markets. Because energy is everything going forwards. No cheap energy means you will be dominated by others that have access to cheap energy. Ie US and China and even India maybe(Alternative energy is end goal but that's like 50 years away). This is what US elites and Chinese want. Weak Europe.
I believe it's not in the interest of eu to keep fighting against Russia because even if Putin's regime will fall, another or even worse one will come around from the mafia that runs Russia.
Or worse if Russia is losing then Putin will launch all his nukes and nuke everyone. He did say if there's no Russia, then there's no point of having a world.
[
See this shit is why people call you out. You want to reward Russia for their aggression by giving them land. You want to spread the myth about NATO danger to Russia and wanting a buffer zone. Are you aware Russia already shares multiple borders with NATO countries? Are you aware Russia's border with NATO grew a lot since this conflict began now that Finland officially joined?
Russia was so scared of the big bad NATO that they emptied their border garrisons to send those soldiers to die in Ukraine, that is how scared they are of NATO.
Its horseshit all of it. Russia will never give up? then we never stop giving Ukraine weapons to kill Russians with, it is really that simple. This war ends when Russia goes back to its original borders or the last Russian soldier in Ukraine gets put 6 feet under.
On August 25 2025 22:49 spets1 wrote: Alright this is what I think. Been thinking really in my head whats the best way for Europe to go forward with the current situation:
First eu as a collective needs to understand that Putin's Russia is brainwashed enough that they will not give up the fight. And throughout all Russian history Russians always endured a truckload of pain and suffering under their own corrupt leadership starting with Grozny and currently with Putin and all the wars, Napoleon, hitler, polish wars, Baltic wars, Mongols etc. they always fight and never give up even if it means dieing for the motherland.
So now that almost every country is in NATO they need to come up with some kind of agreement that will give some land to Russia from Ukraine. Because the Russians won't give up. Then keep some part of Ukraine neutral, ie no army , no NATO as a buffer zone between EU and Russia. This set up will allow the killing to stop. And also set up a safety zone between the west/NATO and Russia. And to keep the Putin mafia happy
Then for security guarantees EU needs to pump up their military. So that Russia won't invade anyone again.
Then EU needs to go back and buy Russian gas and oil because that's the cheapest and most efficient option. Otherwise EU will become uncompetitive in the world markets. Because energy is everything going forwards. No cheap energy means you will be dominated by others that have access to cheap energy. Ie US and China and even India maybe(Alternative energy is end goal but that's like 50 years away). This is what US elites and Chinese want. Weak Europe.
I believe it's not in the interest of eu to keep fighting against Russia because even if Putin's regime will fall, another or even worse one will come around from the mafia that runs Russia.
Or worse if Russia is losing then Putin will launch all his nukes and nuke everyone. He did say if there's no Russia, then there's no point of having a world.
[
Why, under those circumstances, would Russia not just go again 3 days after they occupied all the territory they got for free and demilitarized the neutral Ukrainian zone?
Your first paragraph says that they will never stop, and then the second paragraph says "but if we give them this stuff they want while getting nothing in return, and also make it really easy for them to keep on going because now the Ukrainian border is not really fortified anymore, they will stop!"
My counterproposal for a strategy for Europe is: Build factories that produce a million shells a month (ideally starting in 2022, but starting now is better than not doing this at all), and other similar things. Give Ukraine all of that shit. Wait until Russia is tired of all of its men dying for nothing against a superiorly armed foe. Then have a peace that actually lasts because Russia is exhausted and knows it failed the first time.
Because, as you said, Russia is brainwashed, and if it gets anything close to a victory in Ukraine, it will just go again. Either in Ukraine, or somewhere else. Putin has been doing this shit for two decades now.
EPT
