EPTThe Wests demands are unacceptable to Russia.
The war will go on
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 848
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spets1
92 Posts
The Wests demands are unacceptable to Russia. The war will go on | ||
Falling
Canada11361 Posts
Stay inside your own borders and don't kill your neighbours/ steal their land & children. So unacceptable. Hitler also thought it was unacceptable that everyone thought he should stop conquering his neighbours. But you know. I think the Allies were pretty unreasonable, don't you? Both sides made unacceptable demands of each other. World War II went on. War do be like that. | ||
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KwarK
United States42860 Posts
On August 24 2025 08:32 spets1 wrote: Yes those are the demands which are unacceptable to the west. The Wests demands are unacceptable to Russia. The war will go on If Russia was a dog I’d shoot it. | ||
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spets1
92 Posts
If you really want to see reality then you must have the ability to put yourself in your opponents shoes. To understand Putin, Russia. To understand china and all other nations that are not west. Then you will understand what Putin, other perspectives are then you will have a clearer picture of reality instead of just being angry | ||
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Billyboy
1078 Posts
Hard to say who the bad guys are really. | ||
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KwarK
United States42860 Posts
On August 24 2025 08:49 spets1 wrote: Black and white thinking doesn't work in real-world unfortunately. It's a bit more complex than that. If you really want to see reality then you must have the ability to put yourself in your opponents shoes. To understand Putin, Russia. To understand china and all other nations that are not west. Then you will understand what Putin, other perspectives are then you will have a clearer picture of reality instead of just being angry We all understand him. We just don't like him. | ||
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Falling
Canada11361 Posts
Black and white thinking doesn't work in real-world unfortunately. It's a bit more complex than that. If you really want to see reality then you must have the ability to put yourself in your opponents shoes. What part are we not understanding. I gave you three demands that I have seen made by Russia over and over again. You say, yes those are the demands which are unacceptable to the West. ? ? Seems like you acknowledge I understood. You then assert that it is nuanced but then fail to provide anything nuanced. So what. I can give all sorts of nuances and subtleties on why Germany went to war. We can still identify an aggressor nation. And in the real world with no black and white, Poland and the USSR were far from perfect nations with their pogroms against the Jews. We can still say that invading these imperfect countries was unjustifed. Claiming 'nuance' does not prevent us from rendering judgement. | ||
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spets1
92 Posts
Putin and Russian elites around Putin have this understanding: If Ukraine becomes anti Russian, gets militarized and joins NATO, it is an existential threat to Russia. Which was happening since the ban of Russian language and systemic killing of Russian ethnic population in the east of Ukraine since 2014. This existential threat is the most important point that the west doesn't understand deeply. Putin complained and complained and used diplomacy, asked the west to stop it and they didn't. Instead they kept pushing harder. So seeing as this wasn't going to stop and Russia as a country was under existential threat, he lashed out. Began a special military operation which has now grew into a full scale war. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13964 Posts
On August 24 2025 12:37 spets1 wrote: You need to try to look at things thru Putin's eyes. Putin and Russian elites around Putin have this understanding: If Ukraine becomes anti Russian, gets militarized and joins NATO, it is an existential threat to Russia. Which was happening since the ban of Russian language and systemic killing of Russian ethnic population in the east of Ukraine since 2014. This existential threat is the most important point that the west doesn't understand deeply. Putin complained and complained and used diplomacy, asked the west to stop it and they didn't. Instead they kept pushing harder. So seeing as this wasn't going to stop and Russia as a country was under existential threat, he lashed out. Began a special military operation which has now grew into a full scale war. Russia invaded in 2014, the shelling was the Russian supported rebels. There is no existential threat that isn't created in the mind of a russian who beleives they have a divine right to rule over their old territories. Ukraine deserves to determine their future based on them being an independent and soverign state. Russia agreed to not invade it after they gave up their nukes. Russia invading them like they have justifies them wanting to become anti russian, militarize and join NATO. The countries in the former soviet bloc didn't join NATO without good cause and without their own reasons. They deserve to be free states allowed to make their own decisions without the Russian state lording over them. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17298 Posts
A nice overview of the Russian shadow fleet. I must say I wasn't aware of the scale of this operation. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17298 Posts
On August 24 2025 12:37 spets1 wrote: You need to try to look at things thru Putin's eyes. Putin and Russian elites around Putin have this understanding: If Ukraine becomes anti Russian, gets militarized and joins NATO, it is an existential threat to Russia. Which was happening since the ban of Russian language and systemic killing of Russian ethnic population in the east of Ukraine since 2014. This existential threat is the most important point that the west doesn't understand deeply. Putin complained and complained and used diplomacy, asked the west to stop it and they didn't. Instead they kept pushing harder. So seeing as this wasn't going to stop and Russia as a country was under existential threat, he lashed out. Began a special military operation which has now grew into a full scale war. How is it an existential threat to Russia? Apart from the US, which other NATO country has actively invaded other country? Pretty much all of NATO operations were security or peace-keeping missions. It speaks volumes about the Russian mindset if they consider other countries engaging in a defensive alliance an existential threat to themselves... If they're so concerned, why not join NATO themselves? If Russia was a reasonable actor them joining NATO would actually be good for everyone. Russia would no longer have to unreasonably fear NATO and there would be a big player in the alliance to somewhat thwart the US dominance within it. Win-win if you ask me. Sadly, Russia is not a reasonable actor. | ||
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Falling
Canada11361 Posts
2) NATO did not push. Eastern Europe fled into NATO. Russia had 50+ years to convince Eastern Europe that they are a chill neighbour. Eastern Europe fled the opposite direction as soon as they had a chance. And the lastest war has only solidified that wisdom. If you are in NATO, you are safe. If you are out of NATO, you get picked off by Russia. 3) Why aren't Finland and the Baltics entering NATO equally an existential threat? 4) If the goal was to prevent an anti-Russian Ukraine, Putin has failed miserably. 5) "and systemic killing of Russian ethnic population in the east of Ukraine since 2014" This is a lie. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6223 Posts
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spets1
92 Posts
"If Ukraine becomes anti Russian, gets militarized and joins NATO, it is an existential threat to Russia. " If the west still want to pursue it, then Putins Russia will fight to the end. imo a smarter policy from the west and US would be to befriend Russia so they have a chance against the real geopolitical threat of China. Otherwise let the war go on. Let the west try to defeat Russia. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10738 Posts
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KwarK
United States42860 Posts
On August 24 2025 12:37 spets1 wrote: If Ukraine becomes anti Russian, gets militarized and joins NATO, it is an existential threat to Russia. Which was happening since the ban of Russian language and systemic killing of Russian ethnic population in the east of Ukraine since 2014. This existential threat is the most important point that the west doesn't understand deeply. None of that is real. As in it literally didn't happen. The Russian language wasn't banned, Ukraine wasn't becoming anti-Russian (until Russia invaded it, then they took that personally), there wasn't any killing of Russian ethnic population, even the insurgency was essentially over. It spiked in 2014 when Russia invaded the Donbas but by 2020 it was over. You're literally just making things up. You might as well say that Russia was forced to invade to stop Godzilla. Putin doesn't believe those things happened, you ask us to consider it from Putin's perspective and then list a bunch of things that botfarms spammed on facebook. Putin isn't on facebook, he doesn't know about Ukrainian Godzilla or whatever. Edit: it's pretty hard to overstate the sheer amount of contempt I have for this kind of ignorance when it is used to justify a war that is killing hundreds of thousands. It reminds me of how a minority of Americans mistakenly believed that Saddam was behind 9/11 purely because 9/11 happened and then Bush invaded Iraq and so illiterate cretins mentally constructed their own assumed link because it helped them rationalize it. It's like if you were here going "you need to look at it through Bush's eyes, Bush believes that Saddam did 9/11, that's why this is happening". Like first of all, whether or not he believes that, it's just not true. And secondly, no he fucking doesn't. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6298 Posts
On August 24 2025 08:12 Sermokala wrote: Its such a werid propaganda fueled one dimentional take. He hasn't even been told yet that the "breakthrough" was cut off and most of the units that broke through died already. Even then 13 square kilometers isn't that much when you've got a birds eye look at things and have the ability to systematically search the area. Someone thinking the information they receive on their own would be able to visualize that as a werid thing to say "well Ukraine now has lost the ability to know where anyone is now". It's been an attritional war for Russia the entire time after the initial rush, and Ukraine has managed to pull off a few offensives that have worked and a couple that haven't. They've also cost Russia through diplomacy a lot domestically, and have shown Russians that the war can touch them. The war in the black sea has shown to be a wilder change to warfare than drones have been. "though tank production through the roof" is very clearly a mistranslated line with no real backing or evidence. Russia has never shown an ability to go on on combined arms offensive in the war successfully. When the lines have broken up they have been wrecked every time. Ah right, most of the units that entered the wedge were destroyed which is why Russian forces retain 2/3rds of the area claimed by pro-UKR sources and Deep State hasn’t updated their map in 10 days. Its almost as if people claimed anywhere recon units were sighted were areas under RU control. The problem for Kiev is that they sent 5 elite brigades that were already deployed to the front line in other areas and all they managed to do was contain the wedge while opening themselves up to FAB strikes. Here’s a math problem for you, if units are sighted 13km behind the front line, with a width of 6km what is the total area contested? I’ll give you a hint, its not 13 square kilometers. This isn’t a video game, you cannot just ‘call in a UAV’ and ‘scan’ an area that size to find groups of 2-3 people that don’t want to be seen on foot with red dots flashing. Ukraine lost the bulk of its offensive capabilities in 2023 with the failed counteroffencives toward Rabotino and Bahmut. And what was left was burned through in the Sudza incursion. They still have the ability to counterattack on localized fronts but with units pulled from elsewhere on the front line. Maybe you have an example from the last 30 months where they managed an offensive that resulted in a positive territory gain, unlike the Russian who according to you haven’t been successful in advancing 6000 square km over the same period. I'm going to split the next part off from this post: -------------------------------------------------- No evidence of tank production you say? Well, let me introduce you to Conflict Intelligence Team, which is a foriegn linked open-source think tank formed by Russian dissident Ruslan Leviev. Their group is banned in Russia with an arrest warrant out for Leviev. How Many Т-90M Tanks does Russia Produce? CIT Research Obviously if you want to read the whole thing the link is above but lets go through the key points: By the outset of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Uralvagonzavod had launched serial production and modernization of the T-90M Proryv [Breakthrough] tank, delivering between 66 and 85 of these tanks to active units. An additional ten were sent to the Kazan Higher Tank Command School. As of late 2021, the company aimed to reach an annual output of around 60 tanks. Thus, by February 2022, the Russian army possessed between 65 and 85 T-90M tanks, along with 370 to 380 older T-90 variants. They state that at the start of the conflict, Russia possessed a total of 65-85 T-90Ms and 370-380 other older T-90 varieties. Got the tank numbers? Moving on Following the start of mobilization, all stored T-90A tanks were withdrawn from reserves and assigned to several units within the Russian Armed Forces. The original T-90s remained in reserve but were subsequently sent back to Uralvagonzavod for modernization. According to our estimates, Uralvagonzavod produced 60-70 T-90M tanks in 2022. In 2023, amid efforts to mobilize the defense industry, output may have increased to 140-180 tanks, and by 2024, it may have surpassed 200 units annually, possibly approaching a production rate of 250-300 tanks per year. Note that while in 2022 Russia was producing 60-70 T-90Ms, by 2023 it had increased to 140-180, and by 2024 it may have reached 200+ per year, and possibly even as high as 300. And here is the kicker: The availability of new armored hulls does not appear to be a limiting factor and has not impeded production. All T-90M tanks currently being produced are newly built. This is the most significant of the statements: they confirm that all T-90Ms currently being built are completely new, and not refurbs of older hulls. Keep in mind this is an anti-Russian analysis team, which means they have no incentive to make things up for Russia’s benefit, in fact the opposite. Since the war began, at least 540-630 T-90M tanks have been manufactured—this includes both newly built and modernized vehicles. Given that over 130 of them have been destroyed, an estimated 410-500 remain in service—approximately 15 percent of the tanks deployed on the front. Uralvagonzavod is actively working to expand its production capacity. The company has issued tenders for the procurement and installation of welding stations and machining stands for tank hulls. This equipment is expected to operate 24/7. These steps suggest a likely further increase in production speed. Here we learn that despite potentially reaching 300+ per year production numbers, UVZ is still expanding its production capacity. With armored vehicle use, and therefore losses expected to decline in 2025, current production levels will likely suffice to maintain the RuAF’s tank numbers for at least several more years of combat operations. Russian tank losses have shrunk to such a level, that Russia’s current and expanding production capacities for tanks at this point essentially reach net zero. Russia is reaching the ability to fully maintain its tank losses and keep its current number of tanks indefinitely. Also, the net zero that may have already been reached only pertains to brand new tanks, T-90Ms. But in terms of total tank production, which includes all the refurbished and upgraded T-72, T-80, T-62 still being sent to the front, Russian tank output now vastly surpassed losses. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5602 Posts
On August 24 2025 08:16 spets1 wrote: I think the problem is not that Trump is being conned or not. The problem is that the west is not listening to Russias demands, conditions for peace agreement. Which has been clearly stated from the start and very clearly since russia annexed those oblasts. Those conditions have not changed and have been constant. The demands may seem to be unacceptable to Ukraine and the west. But at least they are clear. The west keeps ignoring the demands and has their own demands instead. If only they heard what the conditions are then everything else is very simple. They could say we don't agree or we agree. The actions speak for themselves though there is no agreement so the war will go on and outcomes will be decided on the battlefield What makes you think the West is unaware of those demands? On August 24 2025 08:49 spets1 wrote: Black and white thinking doesn't work in real-world unfortunately. It's a bit more complex than that. If you really want to see reality then you must have the ability to put yourself in your opponents shoes. To understand Putin, Russia. To understand china and all other nations that are not west. Then you will understand what Putin, other perspectives are then you will have a clearer picture of reality instead of just being angry Do you have an equally "nuanced" view on the Holocaust? On August 24 2025 12:37 spets1 wrote: You need to try to look at things thru Putin's eyes. Putin and Russian elites around Putin have this understanding: If Ukraine becomes anti Russian, gets militarized and joins NATO, it is an existential threat to Russia. Which was happening since the ban of Russian language and systemic killing of Russian ethnic population in the east of Ukraine since 2014. This existential threat is the most important point that the west doesn't understand deeply. Hah, so I guess you got tired with the bullshit facade, mask off? ;-) Before Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, 80+% of Ukrainians had a favorable view of Russia, the vast majority of Ukrainians were opposed to joining NATO, neutrality was enshrined in Ukraine's constitution, and the country had no prospects of joining the alliance. The Russian language was not banned. Do you have any evidence? Also ethnically Russian population was not being was not being systematically killed. Do you have any evidence of that? What made Ukraine anti-Russian was Russia's brutal invasion and attempted genocide. Do you acknowledge that? Putin complained and complained and used diplomacy, asked the west to stop it and they didn't. Instead they kept pushing harder. So seeing as this wasn't going to stop and Russia as a country was under existential threat, he lashed out. Began a special military operation which has now grew into a full scale war. Putin started that war. The pretext he used were a direct copy of Hitler's justification for taking the Sudetenland and attacking Poland. On August 24 2025 14:28 spets1 wrote: I don't want to get into these arguments because i don't want to waste my time about specifics(im pretty sure thats what most of the ~900 pages of this threat are about) . I will just repeat once more this is the way Russian elites and Putin view the situation. It doesnt matter what your opinion of it is. If you think its wrong or right. it doesnt matter. What matters is what Putin thinks. "If Ukraine becomes anti Russian, gets militarized and joins NATO, it is an existential threat to Russia. " If the west still want to pursue it, then Putins Russia will fight to the end. imo a smarter policy from the west and US would be to befriend Russia so they have a chance against the real geopolitical threat of China. Otherwise let the war go on. Let the west try to defeat Russia. There is nothing I'd like to see more than the end of that fascist shithole. ;-) | ||
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KwarK
United States42860 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5602 Posts
https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/pentagon-restricts-ukraines-us-missiles-211324391.html | ||
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