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United States43971 Posts
On July 30 2023 23:36 Artesimo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 23:31 KwarK wrote:On July 30 2023 23:31 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 22:40 KwarK wrote:
You’ve got to remember that Magic Powers, contrary to all historical evidence, still believes in the clean Wehrmacht lie and that his grandfather fought for the Nazis. He has a personal investment in the idea that the Wehrmacht did nothing wrong. There’s no reasoning with that. You've got to remember that KwarK is a liar. Magic Powers never said anything about the Wehrmacht being clean or his grandfather being innocent. That were all words KwarK put in his mouth, KwarK selectively quoted Magic Powers throughout that exchange, to paint him as some sort of nazi sympathiser. In my opinion he did this deliberately. By admission of another mod, he should have been punished for this, but didn't solely because they wanted to avoid any mod drama. He literally said that any member of the Wehrmacht who wasn't found guilty at Nuremberg was, by definition, innocent of all crimes. I really don't think you were following that exchange if you didn't recognize how extreme he was in his defence of the Wehrmacht. I remember that you do not respect the rule of law when it doesn't suit your opinions, yes. Just like how you like to selectively apply basic human rights.
Who did I deny basic human rights to? I think you're confusing me with the Wehrmacht.
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On July 30 2023 23:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 23:36 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 23:31 KwarK wrote:On July 30 2023 23:31 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 22:40 KwarK wrote:
You’ve got to remember that Magic Powers, contrary to all historical evidence, still believes in the clean Wehrmacht lie and that his grandfather fought for the Nazis. He has a personal investment in the idea that the Wehrmacht did nothing wrong. There’s no reasoning with that. You've got to remember that KwarK is a liar. Magic Powers never said anything about the Wehrmacht being clean or his grandfather being innocent. That were all words KwarK put in his mouth, KwarK selectively quoted Magic Powers throughout that exchange, to paint him as some sort of nazi sympathiser. In my opinion he did this deliberately. By admission of another mod, he should have been punished for this, but didn't solely because they wanted to avoid any mod drama. He literally said that any member of the Wehrmacht who wasn't found guilty at Nuremberg was, by definition, innocent of all crimes. I really don't think you were following that exchange if you didn't recognize how extreme he was in his defence of the Wehrmacht. I remember that you do not respect the rule of law when it doesn't suit your opinions, yes. Just like how you like to selectively apply basic human rights. Who did I deny basic human rights to? I think you're confusing me with the Wehrmacht.
Russian soldiers which you were in favour of dehumanizing. But I indeed thought a couple of times that that for someone who always makes these grand posts on fascism and the nazis, you seem to not reflect on your on behaviour, and how it might align with the exact things you are speaking out against.
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United States43971 Posts
On July 30 2023 23:43 Artesimo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 23:39 KwarK wrote:On July 30 2023 23:36 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 23:31 KwarK wrote:On July 30 2023 23:31 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 22:40 KwarK wrote:
You’ve got to remember that Magic Powers, contrary to all historical evidence, still believes in the clean Wehrmacht lie and that his grandfather fought for the Nazis. He has a personal investment in the idea that the Wehrmacht did nothing wrong. There’s no reasoning with that. You've got to remember that KwarK is a liar. Magic Powers never said anything about the Wehrmacht being clean or his grandfather being innocent. That were all words KwarK put in his mouth, KwarK selectively quoted Magic Powers throughout that exchange, to paint him as some sort of nazi sympathiser. In my opinion he did this deliberately. By admission of another mod, he should have been punished for this, but didn't solely because they wanted to avoid any mod drama. He literally said that any member of the Wehrmacht who wasn't found guilty at Nuremberg was, by definition, innocent of all crimes. I really don't think you were following that exchange if you didn't recognize how extreme he was in his defence of the Wehrmacht. I remember that you do not respect the rule of law when it doesn't suit your opinions, yes. Just like how you like to selectively apply basic human rights. Who did I deny basic human rights to? I think you're confusing me with the Wehrmacht. Russian soldiers which you were in favour of dehumanizing. But I indeed thought a couple of times that that for someone who always makes these grand posts on fascism and the nazis, you seem to not reflect on your on behaviour, and how it might align with the exact things you are speaking out against.
I never said any of these people aren't human or shouldn't be treated as humans and I don't know where you're getting these things. You seem to think that if you just make up straw man arguments and tell me that they're what I believe that will somehow be an effective argument. It's not. Stop.
The other part of your argument is classic "if you're intolerant of Nazis then that actually makes you the real Nazi". It doesn't.
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On July 30 2023 23:45 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 23:43 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 23:39 KwarK wrote:On July 30 2023 23:36 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 23:31 KwarK wrote:On July 30 2023 23:31 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 22:40 KwarK wrote:
You’ve got to remember that Magic Powers, contrary to all historical evidence, still believes in the clean Wehrmacht lie and that his grandfather fought for the Nazis. He has a personal investment in the idea that the Wehrmacht did nothing wrong. There’s no reasoning with that. You've got to remember that KwarK is a liar. Magic Powers never said anything about the Wehrmacht being clean or his grandfather being innocent. That were all words KwarK put in his mouth, KwarK selectively quoted Magic Powers throughout that exchange, to paint him as some sort of nazi sympathiser. In my opinion he did this deliberately. By admission of another mod, he should have been punished for this, but didn't solely because they wanted to avoid any mod drama. He literally said that any member of the Wehrmacht who wasn't found guilty at Nuremberg was, by definition, innocent of all crimes. I really don't think you were following that exchange if you didn't recognize how extreme he was in his defence of the Wehrmacht. I remember that you do not respect the rule of law when it doesn't suit your opinions, yes. Just like how you like to selectively apply basic human rights. Who did I deny basic human rights to? I think you're confusing me with the Wehrmacht. Russian soldiers which you were in favour of dehumanizing. But I indeed thought a couple of times that that for someone who always makes these grand posts on fascism and the nazis, you seem to not reflect on your on behaviour, and how it might align with the exact things you are speaking out against. I never said any of these people aren't human or shouldn't be treated as humans and I don't know where you're getting these things. You seem to think that if you just make up straw men arguments and tell me that they're what I believe that will somehow be an effective argument. It's not. Stop. The other part of your argument is classic "if you're intolerant of Nazis then that actually makes you the real Nazi". It doesn't.
No, the argument is that your behaviour doesn't live up to your larping as a great bastion against nazis and fascism. I did not mean to insist that you are a nazi, I question you having a problem with the things I mentioned because you do them yourself. I am calling you inconsistent, not a nazi. And your strategy when faced with criticism seems to be also very dishonest.
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United States43971 Posts
Look, it's very simple. The genocidal soldiers in the genocidal army fighting for genocide are, by definition, participants in that genocide.
It's true of the Wehrmacht in Eastern Europe and it's true of the Russian Armed Forces today. A single evil man at the top can give all the evil orders he wants but other men still pull the trigger.
I don't think they're inhuman, I don't think they're animals, I don't think that they should be treated as animals. I do think that they're complicit and should be treated as being complicit.
This idea that genocide is caused by a single evil man and that everyone else just somehow got swept along is very convenient for post war reconciliation but it doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny. It's a lie that societies tell themselves to avoid addressing the uncomfortable truth of the average man's capacity to do evil acts.
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On July 30 2023 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 23:29 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 22:44 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself. It's your low bar for "forced" that's the problem here. Unless you were cryogenically frozen before Feb '22 and defrosted in a trench in Donetsk stuck between Ukrainians and Russian enforcers, you had ways of avoiding ending up in that situation without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance. It's not enough for there to be any punishment or inconvenience whatsoever to absolve you, it has to be a comparable one. Ardias is a good man. He's still in Russia even though he could've technically left. He has personal reasons for that decision. Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide? The condition I wrote applies all the same to people we know of (like Ardias) and to people we don't know of, why wouldn't it? If he can avoid ending up in a kill or be killed situation in Ukrainian mud without having to make a comparable sacrifice then he ought to do it. So what is your conclusion about Ardias then? He decided to stay in Russia, for his own reasons. What is your judgement of him as a person? Please tell us.
Based on that alone? None. As others have wrote, leaving the country isn't the only way to avoid ending up in the scenario you wrote.
But anyone that refuses the inconvenience of leaving, then refuses the fine or jail time for avoiding the summons, then refuses to take a beating from their commander for not following orders, then refuses the risk that comes with desertion, cannot be absolved of being an enabler of this genocide attempt. And that's not even an exhaustive list, there's people that bribed their way out of it, and probably other ways I'm missing right now.
I can't find it right now but I recall an interview with a Russian that fled to Germany at the start of the invasion and was volunteering with the humanitarian aid logistics for Ukraine, he was asked he feels any responsibility for the war and he said he shares at least "1 / 140 million" of the blame. I think that's the healthy approach to this.
In the most circulated clip of the drone explosion from last night in Moscow the first thing I felt was empathy towards the terrorized woman filming it, I don't want anyone to feel that scared. But then I immediately felt mad knowing that if a hundred million Russians had thought about those terrorized people hiding in basements in Kharkiv for months in the same way, we wouldn't fucking be here.
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On July 30 2023 23:59 KwarK wrote:
Look, it's very simple. The genocidal soldiers in the genocidal army fighting for genocide are, by definition, participants in that genocide.
It's true of the Wehrmacht in Eastern Europe and it's true of the Russian Armed Forces today. A single evil man at the top can give all the evil orders he wants but other men still pull the trigger.
I don't think they're inhuman, I don't think they're animals, I don't think that they should be treated as animals. I do think that they're complicit and should be treated as being complicit.
This idea that genocide is caused by a single evil man and that everyone else just somehow got swept along is very convenient for post war reconciliation but it doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny. It's a lie that societies tell themselves to avoid addressing the uncomfortable truth of the average man's capacity to do evil acts.
That was not your argument at all. You argued that all Russian soldiers should be treated equally. You didn't make a nuanced point that "not all Russian soldiers are innocent". You didn't argue that "Putin isn't doing this all by himself". These are actually reasonable arguments, and you didn't make these arguments. Instead you painted all Russian soldiers as willfully doing Putin's bidding of committing genocide. I posted your comments, so why are so blatantly denying what you said?
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On July 31 2023 00:18 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 23:59 KwarK wrote:
Look, it's very simple. The genocidal soldiers in the genocidal army fighting for genocide are, by definition, participants in that genocide.
It's true of the Wehrmacht in Eastern Europe and it's true of the Russian Armed Forces today. A single evil man at the top can give all the evil orders he wants but other men still pull the trigger.
I don't think they're inhuman, I don't think they're animals, I don't think that they should be treated as animals. I do think that they're complicit and should be treated as being complicit.
This idea that genocide is caused by a single evil man and that everyone else just somehow got swept along is very convenient for post war reconciliation but it doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny. It's a lie that societies tell themselves to avoid addressing the uncomfortable truth of the average man's capacity to do evil acts. That was not your argument at all. You argued that all Russian soldiers should be treated equally. You didn't make a nuanced point that "not all Russian soldiers are innocent". You didn't argue that "Putin isn't doing this all by himself". These are actually reasonable arguments, and you didn't make these arguments. Instead you painted all Russian soldiers as willfully doing Putin's bidding of committing genocide. I posted your comments, so why are so blatantly denying what you said? Yes, all Russian soldiers in Ukraine are wilfully doing Putin's bidding of committing genocide (or enabling it) simply by being part of the invading army that allows the genocide to happen.
The simple fact they are an invading soldier actively invading a country makes them so.
If they didn't want to be wilfully engaging in enabling genocide they shouldn't be part of an invading army and should do everything in their power to get out.
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On July 31 2023 00:15 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 23:29 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 22:44 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself. It's your low bar for "forced" that's the problem here. Unless you were cryogenically frozen before Feb '22 and defrosted in a trench in Donetsk stuck between Ukrainians and Russian enforcers, you had ways of avoiding ending up in that situation without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance. It's not enough for there to be any punishment or inconvenience whatsoever to absolve you, it has to be a comparable one. Ardias is a good man. He's still in Russia even though he could've technically left. He has personal reasons for that decision. Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide? The condition I wrote applies all the same to people we know of (like Ardias) and to people we don't know of, why wouldn't it? If he can avoid ending up in a kill or be killed situation in Ukrainian mud without having to make a comparable sacrifice then he ought to do it. So what is your conclusion about Ardias then? He decided to stay in Russia, for his own reasons. What is your judgement of him as a person? Please tell us. Based on that alone? None. As others have wrote, leaving the country isn't the only way to avoid ending up in the scenario you wrote. But anyone that refuses the inconvenience of leaving, then refuses the fine or jail time for avoiding the summons, then refuses to take a beating from their commander for not following orders, then refuses the risk that comes with desertion, cannot be absolved of being an enabler of this genocide attempt. And that's not even an exhaustive list, there's people that bribed their way out of it, and probably other ways I'm missing right now. I can't find it right now but I recall an interview with a Russian that fled to Germany at the start of the invasion and was volunteering with the humanitarian aid logistics for Ukraine, he was asked he feels any responsibility for the war and he said he shares at least "1 / 140 million" of the blame. I think that's the healthy approach to this. In the most circulated clip of the drone explosion from last night in Moscow the first thing I felt was empathy towards the terrorized woman filming it, I don't want anyone to feel that scared. But then I immediately felt mad knowing that if a hundred million Russians had thought about those terrorized people hiding in basements in Kharkiv for months in the same way, we wouldn't fucking be here.
Dead bodies of dead Russian soldiers say otherwise. Do you claim that they're all guilty? That would be a claim of omnipotence. You're not omnipotent, you can't just blanket state that all of these soldiers are guilty. Why are you presuming their guilt if you don't know anything about what happened in their lives?
Do you strictly refuse to believe that some people were exposed to nothing but Russian state TV so they can't help but believe the west is evil and Russia is good? And do you strictly refuse to believe that some people lack access to actually good information that could help them determine which side is in the right and which side is in the wrong?
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United States43971 Posts
On July 31 2023 00:18 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 23:59 KwarK wrote:
Look, it's very simple. The genocidal soldiers in the genocidal army fighting for genocide are, by definition, participants in that genocide.
It's true of the Wehrmacht in Eastern Europe and it's true of the Russian Armed Forces today. A single evil man at the top can give all the evil orders he wants but other men still pull the trigger.
I don't think they're inhuman, I don't think they're animals, I don't think that they should be treated as animals. I do think that they're complicit and should be treated as being complicit.
This idea that genocide is caused by a single evil man and that everyone else just somehow got swept along is very convenient for post war reconciliation but it doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny. It's a lie that societies tell themselves to avoid addressing the uncomfortable truth of the average man's capacity to do evil acts. That was not your argument at all. You argued that all Russian soldiers should be treated equally. You didn't make a nuanced point that "not all Russian soldiers are innocent". You didn't argue that "Putin isn't doing this all by himself". These are actually reasonable arguments, and you didn't make these arguments. Instead you painted all Russian soldiers as willfully doing Putin's bidding of committing genocide. I posted your comments, so why are so blatantly denying what you said?
What are you talking about?
The post you quoted was consistent with the other quotes. It says that the soldiers are participants.
You're spinning round and round in circles here mate. Talking with you would be a lot easier if you'd take the time to actually read what was written before responding.
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On July 31 2023 00:26 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2023 00:15 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 23:29 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 22:44 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself. It's your low bar for "forced" that's the problem here. Unless you were cryogenically frozen before Feb '22 and defrosted in a trench in Donetsk stuck between Ukrainians and Russian enforcers, you had ways of avoiding ending up in that situation without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance. It's not enough for there to be any punishment or inconvenience whatsoever to absolve you, it has to be a comparable one. Ardias is a good man. He's still in Russia even though he could've technically left. He has personal reasons for that decision. Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide? The condition I wrote applies all the same to people we know of (like Ardias) and to people we don't know of, why wouldn't it? If he can avoid ending up in a kill or be killed situation in Ukrainian mud without having to make a comparable sacrifice then he ought to do it. So what is your conclusion about Ardias then? He decided to stay in Russia, for his own reasons. What is your judgement of him as a person? Please tell us. Based on that alone? None. As others have wrote, leaving the country isn't the only way to avoid ending up in the scenario you wrote. But anyone that refuses the inconvenience of leaving, then refuses the fine or jail time for avoiding the summons, then refuses to take a beating from their commander for not following orders, then refuses the risk that comes with desertion, cannot be absolved of being an enabler of this genocide attempt. And that's not even an exhaustive list, there's people that bribed their way out of it, and probably other ways I'm missing right now. I can't find it right now but I recall an interview with a Russian that fled to Germany at the start of the invasion and was volunteering with the humanitarian aid logistics for Ukraine, he was asked he feels any responsibility for the war and he said he shares at least "1 / 140 million" of the blame. I think that's the healthy approach to this. In the most circulated clip of the drone explosion from last night in Moscow the first thing I felt was empathy towards the terrorized woman filming it, I don't want anyone to feel that scared. But then I immediately felt mad knowing that if a hundred million Russians had thought about those terrorized people hiding in basements in Kharkiv for months in the same way, we wouldn't fucking be here. Dead bodies of dead Russian soldiers say otherwise. Do you claim that they're all guilty? That would be a claim of omnipotence. You're not omnipotent, you can't just blanket state that all of these soldiers are guilty. Why are you presuming their guilt if you don't know anything about what happened in their lives? Do you strictly refuse to believe that some people were exposed to nothing but Russian state TV so they can't help but believe the west is evil and Russia is good? And do you strictly refuse to believe that some people lack access to actually good information that could help them determine which side is in the right and which side is in the wrong? being ignorant is not a defence absolving ones actions.
Whether they believe Russia is evil or not isn't relevant.
Whether they believe genocide is happening isn't relevant.
It is happening, and they are enabling it.
Period, full stop, the end.
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On July 31 2023 00:29 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2023 00:26 Magic Powers wrote:On July 31 2023 00:15 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 23:29 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 22:44 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself. It's your low bar for "forced" that's the problem here. Unless you were cryogenically frozen before Feb '22 and defrosted in a trench in Donetsk stuck between Ukrainians and Russian enforcers, you had ways of avoiding ending up in that situation without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance. It's not enough for there to be any punishment or inconvenience whatsoever to absolve you, it has to be a comparable one. Ardias is a good man. He's still in Russia even though he could've technically left. He has personal reasons for that decision. Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide? The condition I wrote applies all the same to people we know of (like Ardias) and to people we don't know of, why wouldn't it? If he can avoid ending up in a kill or be killed situation in Ukrainian mud without having to make a comparable sacrifice then he ought to do it. So what is your conclusion about Ardias then? He decided to stay in Russia, for his own reasons. What is your judgement of him as a person? Please tell us. Based on that alone? None. As others have wrote, leaving the country isn't the only way to avoid ending up in the scenario you wrote. But anyone that refuses the inconvenience of leaving, then refuses the fine or jail time for avoiding the summons, then refuses to take a beating from their commander for not following orders, then refuses the risk that comes with desertion, cannot be absolved of being an enabler of this genocide attempt. And that's not even an exhaustive list, there's people that bribed their way out of it, and probably other ways I'm missing right now. I can't find it right now but I recall an interview with a Russian that fled to Germany at the start of the invasion and was volunteering with the humanitarian aid logistics for Ukraine, he was asked he feels any responsibility for the war and he said he shares at least "1 / 140 million" of the blame. I think that's the healthy approach to this. In the most circulated clip of the drone explosion from last night in Moscow the first thing I felt was empathy towards the terrorized woman filming it, I don't want anyone to feel that scared. But then I immediately felt mad knowing that if a hundred million Russians had thought about those terrorized people hiding in basements in Kharkiv for months in the same way, we wouldn't fucking be here. Dead bodies of dead Russian soldiers say otherwise. Do you claim that they're all guilty? That would be a claim of omnipotence. You're not omnipotent, you can't just blanket state that all of these soldiers are guilty. Why are you presuming their guilt if you don't know anything about what happened in their lives? Do you strictly refuse to believe that some people were exposed to nothing but Russian state TV so they can't help but believe the west is evil and Russia is good? And do you strictly refuse to believe that some people lack access to actually good information that could help them determine which side is in the right and which side is in the wrong? being ignorant is not a defence absolving ones actions. Whether they believe Russia is evil or not isn't relevant. Whether they believe genocide is happening isn't relevant. It is happening, and they are enabling it. Period, full stop, the end.
Being ignorant is definitely an excuse for many things, and I won't budge on this.
To a brainwashed Russian soldier, we sound like complete madmen.
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On July 31 2023 00:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2023 00:18 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 23:59 KwarK wrote:
Look, it's very simple. The genocidal soldiers in the genocidal army fighting for genocide are, by definition, participants in that genocide.
It's true of the Wehrmacht in Eastern Europe and it's true of the Russian Armed Forces today. A single evil man at the top can give all the evil orders he wants but other men still pull the trigger.
I don't think they're inhuman, I don't think they're animals, I don't think that they should be treated as animals. I do think that they're complicit and should be treated as being complicit.
This idea that genocide is caused by a single evil man and that everyone else just somehow got swept along is very convenient for post war reconciliation but it doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny. It's a lie that societies tell themselves to avoid addressing the uncomfortable truth of the average man's capacity to do evil acts. That was not your argument at all. You argued that all Russian soldiers should be treated equally. You didn't make a nuanced point that "not all Russian soldiers are innocent". You didn't argue that "Putin isn't doing this all by himself". These are actually reasonable arguments, and you didn't make these arguments. Instead you painted all Russian soldiers as willfully doing Putin's bidding of committing genocide. I posted your comments, so why are so blatantly denying what you said? What are you talking about? The post you quoted was consistent with the other quotes. It says that the soldiers are participants. You're spinning round and round in circles here mate. Talking with you would be a lot easier if you'd take the time to actually read what was written before responding.
"Russian soldiers who are fighting for the right to genocide the Ukrainians"
I said don't gaslight me. Don't try it.
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United States43971 Posts
On July 31 2023 00:35 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2023 00:26 KwarK wrote:On July 31 2023 00:18 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 23:59 KwarK wrote:
Look, it's very simple. The genocidal soldiers in the genocidal army fighting for genocide are, by definition, participants in that genocide.
It's true of the Wehrmacht in Eastern Europe and it's true of the Russian Armed Forces today. A single evil man at the top can give all the evil orders he wants but other men still pull the trigger.
I don't think they're inhuman, I don't think they're animals, I don't think that they should be treated as animals. I do think that they're complicit and should be treated as being complicit.
This idea that genocide is caused by a single evil man and that everyone else just somehow got swept along is very convenient for post war reconciliation but it doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny. It's a lie that societies tell themselves to avoid addressing the uncomfortable truth of the average man's capacity to do evil acts. That was not your argument at all. You argued that all Russian soldiers should be treated equally. You didn't make a nuanced point that "not all Russian soldiers are innocent". You didn't argue that "Putin isn't doing this all by himself". These are actually reasonable arguments, and you didn't make these arguments. Instead you painted all Russian soldiers as willfully doing Putin's bidding of committing genocide. I posted your comments, so why are so blatantly denying what you said? What are you talking about? The post you quoted was consistent with the other quotes. It says that the soldiers are participants. You're spinning round and round in circles here mate. Talking with you would be a lot easier if you'd take the time to actually read what was written before responding. "Russian soldiers who are fighting for the right to genocide the Ukrainians" I said don't gaslight me. Don't try it.
What are you talking about? All the Russian soldiers involved in this war are fighting for genocide. It's a genocidal war.
You're gaslighting yourself. I keep saying that you're misrepresenting my point and I keep repeating exactly what my point is. Then you insist that what I'm saying isn't what I'm saying because it disagrees with the thing that you're imagining, despite the fact that I've already said that what you're imagining is misrepresenting my point.
Take me at my word about what my argument is. If what I'm saying my argument is disagrees with what you're imagining I'm saying then you have to correct the thing that you're imagining. I am by definition the only authority on what my argument is. If you decide that I'm no longer arguing the point that you previously imagined I was arguing then if you like you can imagine that you defeated that point and imagine yourself to have won that one. I give you permission to do that. Just please stop telling me what you imagine I'm saying, I really don't care.
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On July 31 2023 00:26 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2023 00:15 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 23:29 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 22:44 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself. It's your low bar for "forced" that's the problem here. Unless you were cryogenically frozen before Feb '22 and defrosted in a trench in Donetsk stuck between Ukrainians and Russian enforcers, you had ways of avoiding ending up in that situation without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance. It's not enough for there to be any punishment or inconvenience whatsoever to absolve you, it has to be a comparable one. Ardias is a good man. He's still in Russia even though he could've technically left. He has personal reasons for that decision. Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide? The condition I wrote applies all the same to people we know of (like Ardias) and to people we don't know of, why wouldn't it? If he can avoid ending up in a kill or be killed situation in Ukrainian mud without having to make a comparable sacrifice then he ought to do it. So what is your conclusion about Ardias then? He decided to stay in Russia, for his own reasons. What is your judgement of him as a person? Please tell us. Based on that alone? None. As others have wrote, leaving the country isn't the only way to avoid ending up in the scenario you wrote. But anyone that refuses the inconvenience of leaving, then refuses the fine or jail time for avoiding the summons, then refuses to take a beating from their commander for not following orders, then refuses the risk that comes with desertion, cannot be absolved of being an enabler of this genocide attempt. And that's not even an exhaustive list, there's people that bribed their way out of it, and probably other ways I'm missing right now. I can't find it right now but I recall an interview with a Russian that fled to Germany at the start of the invasion and was volunteering with the humanitarian aid logistics for Ukraine, he was asked he feels any responsibility for the war and he said he shares at least "1 / 140 million" of the blame. I think that's the healthy approach to this. In the most circulated clip of the drone explosion from last night in Moscow the first thing I felt was empathy towards the terrorized woman filming it, I don't want anyone to feel that scared. But then I immediately felt mad knowing that if a hundred million Russians had thought about those terrorized people hiding in basements in Kharkiv for months in the same way, we wouldn't fucking be here. Dead bodies of dead Russian soldiers say otherwise. Do you claim that they're all guilty?
Wtf does whether they are alive any more or not have anything to do with whether they participated in a genocide? Yes, they did, by virtue of being part of a military who invaded another country and committed genocide. This seems difficult for your to understand.
Now they are dead. Those two are not remotely mutually exclusive. All Russian soldiers in Ukraine are guilty, current status of health have no bearing. Or do you think if Putin dropped dead tomorrow, he would immediately be absolved of all sin? Maybe in some religions, but certainly not here on earth
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While I disagree with calling them Nazis, they ARE fascists. Their government is fascist, their ideology is fascist - they are fascists. And that includes everyone who supports that government, its actions and the actions of the Russian army. Anyone who has picked up a gun, especially those who have fired it at Ukrainians in Ukraine, and anyone helping the war effort directly or indirectly, is guilty of enabling that invasions and bears responsibility.
I don't think a residential building in Moscow was the target for that drone because that's simply not the kind of warfare that Ukraine has been waging so far, but anyone arguing for firebombing Dresden and dropping nukes on Japan has to concede that this IS how you fight fascism.
The entire ideology is based on the notion that might makes right, that they are superior and invincible. Russian fascism also has the neat little addition that they believe that the Russian people are special, their version of manifest destiny, and that they are eternally innocent as a nation and people. You cannot negotiate with that. You cannot reason with that. You cannot appease that. We have learned that over the course of the last 20 years, especially the Germans. The only thing that has historically worked is to shatter that notion of invincibility and superiority and to force them to do some serious reflecting.
NATO isn't going to occupy Saint Petersburg. Ukrainian troops are not going to march on Moscow. But the Russian people have to learn that war is not just a neat little thing that happens to other, inferior people.
Even if they are guilty, Russian soldiers who have become POW still deserve to be treated like human beings. I am always happy when I see Russians surrender and from what I have seen so far, the vast majority of them are treated with dignity and respect.
But I am not going to lose sleep when a HIMARS rocket riddles a Russian soldier's body with hundreds of tungsten balls while he's aiming his artillery piece at Ukrainian villages. They have made their bed, they cannot complain when Ukrainians drone-drop grenades into it.
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On July 31 2023 00:48 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2023 00:26 Magic Powers wrote:On July 31 2023 00:15 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 23:31 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 23:29 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 22:44 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself. It's your low bar for "forced" that's the problem here. Unless you were cryogenically frozen before Feb '22 and defrosted in a trench in Donetsk stuck between Ukrainians and Russian enforcers, you had ways of avoiding ending up in that situation without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance. It's not enough for there to be any punishment or inconvenience whatsoever to absolve you, it has to be a comparable one. Ardias is a good man. He's still in Russia even though he could've technically left. He has personal reasons for that decision. Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide? The condition I wrote applies all the same to people we know of (like Ardias) and to people we don't know of, why wouldn't it? If he can avoid ending up in a kill or be killed situation in Ukrainian mud without having to make a comparable sacrifice then he ought to do it. So what is your conclusion about Ardias then? He decided to stay in Russia, for his own reasons. What is your judgement of him as a person? Please tell us. Based on that alone? None. As others have wrote, leaving the country isn't the only way to avoid ending up in the scenario you wrote. But anyone that refuses the inconvenience of leaving, then refuses the fine or jail time for avoiding the summons, then refuses to take a beating from their commander for not following orders, then refuses the risk that comes with desertion, cannot be absolved of being an enabler of this genocide attempt. And that's not even an exhaustive list, there's people that bribed their way out of it, and probably other ways I'm missing right now. I can't find it right now but I recall an interview with a Russian that fled to Germany at the start of the invasion and was volunteering with the humanitarian aid logistics for Ukraine, he was asked he feels any responsibility for the war and he said he shares at least "1 / 140 million" of the blame. I think that's the healthy approach to this. In the most circulated clip of the drone explosion from last night in Moscow the first thing I felt was empathy towards the terrorized woman filming it, I don't want anyone to feel that scared. But then I immediately felt mad knowing that if a hundred million Russians had thought about those terrorized people hiding in basements in Kharkiv for months in the same way, we wouldn't fucking be here. Dead bodies of dead Russian soldiers say otherwise. Do you claim that they're all guilty? Wtf does whether they are alive any more or not have anything to do with whether they participated in a genocide? Yes, they did, by virtue of being part of a military who invaded another country and committed genocide. This seems difficult for your to understand. Now they are dead. Those two are not remotely mutually exclusive
It's not about them being dead. Some of them were brainwashed to such a degree that they're now dead because they thought they were fighting for a just cause.
People are essentially arguing that Russian propaganda is so ineffectual that no man should be able to fall for it and that, if they end up fighting an unjust war as a consequence, they're all... incredibly stupid. Or evil. Or selfish. Or all of the above. Do you think that's reasonable? Men from entire towns being mobilized to be shipped to war. They're all stupid? Or they're all evil? Or they're all selfish? Or they're all of the above? Not one of them can be good, smart and selfless, and just tragically brainwashed?
Really think about it. This would imply that Russian TV propaganda is ineffectual even in the most remote areas where they don't have access to good information.
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On July 31 2023 00:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2023 00:35 Magic Powers wrote:On July 31 2023 00:26 KwarK wrote:On July 31 2023 00:18 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 23:59 KwarK wrote:
Look, it's very simple. The genocidal soldiers in the genocidal army fighting for genocide are, by definition, participants in that genocide.
It's true of the Wehrmacht in Eastern Europe and it's true of the Russian Armed Forces today. A single evil man at the top can give all the evil orders he wants but other men still pull the trigger.
I don't think they're inhuman, I don't think they're animals, I don't think that they should be treated as animals. I do think that they're complicit and should be treated as being complicit.
This idea that genocide is caused by a single evil man and that everyone else just somehow got swept along is very convenient for post war reconciliation but it doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny. It's a lie that societies tell themselves to avoid addressing the uncomfortable truth of the average man's capacity to do evil acts. That was not your argument at all. You argued that all Russian soldiers should be treated equally. You didn't make a nuanced point that "not all Russian soldiers are innocent". You didn't argue that "Putin isn't doing this all by himself". These are actually reasonable arguments, and you didn't make these arguments. Instead you painted all Russian soldiers as willfully doing Putin's bidding of committing genocide. I posted your comments, so why are so blatantly denying what you said? What are you talking about? The post you quoted was consistent with the other quotes. It says that the soldiers are participants. You're spinning round and round in circles here mate. Talking with you would be a lot easier if you'd take the time to actually read what was written before responding. "Russian soldiers who are fighting for the right to genocide the Ukrainians" I said don't gaslight me. Don't try it. What are you talking about? All the Russian soldiers involved in this war are fighting for genocide. It's a genocidal war. You're gaslighting yourself. I keep saying that you're misrepresenting my point and I keep repeating exactly what my point is. Then you insist that what I'm saying isn't what I'm saying because it disagrees with the thing that you're imagining, despite the fact that I've already said that what you're imagining is misrepresenting my point. Take me at my word about what my argument is. If what I'm saying my argument is disagrees with what you're imagining I'm saying then you have to correct the thing that you're imagining. I am by definition the only authority on what my argument is. If you decide that I'm no longer arguing the point that you previously imagined I was arguing then if you like you can imagine that you defeated that point and imagine yourself to have won that one. I give you permission to do that. Just please stop telling me what you imagine I'm saying, I really don't care.
Just because we in this thread are all, or most of us, rooting for Ukraine, that doesn't mean I have to accept when someone is out of line. There have been numerous attempts by people to dehumanize Russians. You tried to dehumanize the soldiers, and this time you tried to promote the idea of bombing cities. This is not something we're united on, and it's absurd that you think this shouldn't be considered controversial.
You painted me and my family as Nazis when your radical views were exposed, and now after posting another radical view you're trying to gaslight me and again attempted to paint me as a Nazi.
I will not take you at your word. You have a history of posting radical views, and you never attempted to correct people's perception of you. Instead you went on the offense despite being a moderator. You started with someone else (I forgot which user it was), then when you received pushback you moved on to me, and you kept receiving pushback, and then you attempted to smear me and my family with lies. You're not an honest man, and that's the whole truth.
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United States43971 Posts
On July 31 2023 00:49 Nezgar wrote:
The entire ideology is based on the notion that might makes right, that they are superior and invincible. Russian fascism also has the neat little addition that they believe that the Russian people are special, their version of manifest destiny, and that they are eternally innocent as a nation and people. You cannot negotiate with that. You cannot reason with that. You cannot appease that. We have learned that over the course of the last 20 years, especially the Germans.
Just to add on to your excellent post, I want to build on your point about Germany's attempt to reason with them and appease them.
Germany, in good faith, attempted to achieve peace through mutual prosperity with Russia. There was a serious effort to bind the economy of Russia with that of Europe so that the Russians could learn to appreciate the prosperity that comes with peace and trade. Russia is a nation rich in natural resources but it lacked the technological expertise to exploit them and access to the markets in which to sell them. The west was instrumental in Russia's emergence from the post Soviet collapse and subsequent relative wealth.
But, as has been proven by subsequent events, they are ideologically incapable of seeing cooperation for mutual gain as anything but weakness. They don't understand why someone might pursue a policy of mutual gain when they could simply take what they wanted and so they assume that the west is unwilling to fight. Crimea was Russia's Sudetenland, they saw the efforts of a united west to make one last push for peace and prosperity as weakness and an invitation to go further.
We tried asking them not to do this. We tried paying them not to do this. We tried inviting them to join us. We gave them extra chances when they broke the rules. We tried reasoning with the Russian state long after they showed us that they had no interest in being reasoned with.
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United States43971 Posts
On July 31 2023 01:01 Magic Powers wrote:
You tried to dehumanize the soldiers.
On July 30 2023 23:59 KwarK wrote:
I don't think they're inhuman, I don't think they're animals, I don't think that they should be treated as animals.
Please stop arguing against a strawman and putting my name on it.
Also if you don't want people saying you support Nazis then maybe don't go around talking Clean Wehrmacht shit. If I spent all my time quacking I wouldn't be blameless when someone called me a duck.
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