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Magic Powers
Austria4156 Posts
On July 31 2023 01:04 KwarK wrote: Please stop arguing against a strawman and putting my name on it. I quoted what you said in the past. You can say whatever you please now, that doesn't change what you said back then. You didn't try to correct what you said then, so why should I believe you now after you're posting another radical idea? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5569 Posts
On July 30 2023 23:24 Magic Powers wrote: "Russian soldiers who are fighting for the right to genocide the Ukrainians" Is what you said. Don't gaslight me. Their motivation for enabling a genocide does not in any way invalidate the fact that they are engaged in it. | ||
KwarK
United States42775 Posts
On July 31 2023 01:08 maybenexttime wrote: Their motivation for enabling a genocide does not in any way invalidate the fact that they are engaged in it. Russian tv proudly declares to the Russian people that they are fighting for genocide. They're not being tricked into it, they like the genocide part. This wasn't a bait and switch, they want to erase the Ukrainian culture and national identity because it refuses to submit to the natural supremacy of the Russian people. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21702 Posts
On July 31 2023 00:53 Magic Powers wrote: No, we are arguing that what they believe is not relevant to what is happening as a result of their actions.People are essentially arguing that Russian propaganda is so ineffectual that no man should be able to fall for it and that, if they end up fighting an unjust war as a consequence, they're all... incredibly stupid. Or evil. Or selfish. Or all of the above. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5569 Posts
On July 30 2023 23:36 Artesimo wrote: I remember that you do not respect the rule of law when it doesn't suit your opinions, yes. Just like how you like to selectively apply basic human rights. Really? Stating that Wehrmacht soldiers were all participating in a genocide and enabled countless war crimes equals not respecting the rule of law? Is this really the hill you want to die on? | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4156 Posts
On July 31 2023 01:08 maybenexttime wrote: Their motivation for enabling a genocide does not in any way invalidate the fact that they are engaged in it. Yes, I'm aware of that. And that's a nuanced argument that we can reasonably have. As you've certainly noticed I'm being careful with my wording in this regard when I express my own views. We can use a different word instead of "enabling genocide" if you like, but I want to note that we're on a different wavelength from KwarK. While we're willing to discuss the moral implications of being complicit in a genocide in one way or another, KwarK has expressly stated that he doesn't make such a distinction (and he's now vehemently denying not having made that distinction). | ||
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KwarK
United States42775 Posts
On July 31 2023 01:15 Magic Powers wrote: Yes, I'm aware of that. And that's a nuanced argument that we can reasonably have. As you've certainly noticed I'm being careful with my wording in this regard when I express my own views. We can use a different word instead of "enabling genocide" if you like, but I want to note that we're on a different wavelength from KwarK. While we're willing to discuss the moral implications of being complicit in a genocide in one way or another, KwarK has expressly stated that he doesn't make such a distinction (and he's now vehemently denying not having made that distinction). If what I'm currently saying is different from the thing you're imagining I was previously saying then why not simply imagine that I was swayed by your arguments and imagine that you've talked me down to a more reasonable position. Ultimately it doesn't matter whether what I'm saying now is consistent with my prior posts, it's still what I'm saying now. Whether I was always saying it or whether you talked me there doesn't actually make a difference. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4156 Posts
On July 31 2023 01:13 KwarK wrote: Russian tv proudly declares to the Russian people that they are fighting for genocide. They're not being tricked into it, they like the genocide part. This wasn't a bait and switch, they want to erase the Ukrainian culture and national identity because it refuses to submit to the natural supremacy of the Russian people. I need evidence of that. Prove to me please that Russian state TV openly declares (without meaningful pushback) that they're planning to eradicate the Ukrainian people. I really need footage of that, and not just one soundbite. It has to be a compilation that's longer than a few minutes of random soundbites that can only be heard every few weeks or so, or from fringe radicalized stations à la Alex Jones. It has to be reputable Russian TV channels. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4156 Posts
On July 31 2023 01:18 KwarK wrote: If what I'm currently saying is different from the thing you're imagining I was previously saying then why not simply imagine that I was swayed by your arguments and imagine that you've talked me down to a more reasonable position. Ultimately it doesn't matter whether what I'm saying now is consistent with my prior posts, it's still what I'm saying now. Whether I was always saying it or whether you talked me there doesn't actually make a difference. I'm absolutely willing to think that you've changed your mind on things, whether that was because of other people's efforts or your own, either way is great. The problem I have today is that I haven't seen any of that change happen because you've never wrote to me about it and I've also not seen it in this forum. And today I heard you voice another idea of very similar nature as the last time. Can you see how this would rub me the wrong way, and maybe a response similar to mine today can be somewhat expected? | ||
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KwarK
United States42775 Posts
On June 06 2023 11:51 KwarK wrote: Russian state propagandists arguing that the Ukrainian question must be solved and that they need to kill every living thing in the Kharkiv oblast. Man, woman, child. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5569 Posts
On July 31 2023 00:33 Magic Powers wrote: Being ignorant is definitely an excuse for many things, and I won't budge on this. To a brainwashed Russian soldier, we sound like complete madmen. Being ignorant may be relevant in terms of a moral judgement, but whether those soldiers are enabling a genocide is not a moral judgement. It's a factual statement which happens to be true. And as Kwark pointed out, even having access exclusively to Russian propaganda is not enough to absolve anyone as that propaganda actively advocates for a genocide of Ukrainians. Russian soldiers have everything they need to realise that they are not the good guys. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28674 Posts
The climate change parallel is quite apt tbh. There are some people who have pushed consumerism and consumption of fossil fuels and destruction of forests to produce more beef and these people are more responsible, but if your biological footprint is greater than 1, you are not innocent. Your vegan friend who bikes everywhere, refuses to fly, wears only second hand clothing and adds an extra layer of clothing rather than increases the heat during winter might be, but a solid 98%+ of people in western countries are not. | ||
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Artesimo
Germany546 Posts
On July 31 2023 00:49 Nezgar wrote: While I disagree with calling them Nazis, they ARE fascists. Their government is fascist, their ideology is fascist - they are fascists. And that includes everyone who supports that government, its actions and the actions of the Russian army. Anyone who has picked up a gun, especially those who have fired it at Ukrainians in Ukraine, and anyone helping the war effort directly or indirectly, is guilty of enabling that invasions and bears responsibility. I don't think a residential building in Moscow was the target for that drone because that's simply not the kind of warfare that Ukraine has been waging so far, but anyone arguing for firebombing Dresden and dropping nukes on Japan has to concede that this IS how you fight fascism. The entire ideology is based on the notion that might makes right, that they are superior and invincible. Russian fascism also has the neat little addition that they believe that the Russian people are special, their version of manifest destiny, and that they are eternally innocent as a nation and people. You cannot negotiate with that. You cannot reason with that. You cannot appease that. We have learned that over the course of the last 20 years, especially the Germans. The only thing that has historically worked is to shatter that notion of invincibility and superiority and to force them to do some serious reflecting. NATO isn't going to occupy Saint Petersburg. Ukrainian troops are not going to march on Moscow. But the Russian people have to learn that war is not just a neat little thing that happens to other, inferior people. Even if they are guilty, Russian soldiers who have become POW still deserve to be treated like human beings. I am always happy when I see Russians surrender and from what I have seen so far, the vast majority of them are treated with dignity and respect. But I am not going to lose sleep when a HIMARS rocket riddles a Russian soldier's body with hundreds of tungsten balls while he's aiming his artillery piece at Ukrainian villages. They have made their bed, they cannot complain when Ukrainians drone-drop grenades into it. At the risk of derailing the thread or completely misunderstanding you: The strategic bombings of ww2 are unacceptable by todays standards, and nobody who has even the most miniscule integrity agrees with them. I am not a fan of the euphemistic term, and thus will rather use the much more honest term "terrorbombing" when talking about strategic bombing intended to break the moral of a population, despite its baggage of often having been used by german right wingers. I am not talking about strategic bombing with the goal to reduce the warfare capabilities by destroying military factories, logistics, production etc. The german nazi government was a bunch of despicable criminals fighting a total war, so naturally they were fine with nazi germany terrorbombing cities indiscriminately. Today, people who have a informed opinion on the matter do not support that decision. The allied terrorbombings have been controversial even among the allies themselves at the times (a little less so when it came to japan, but thats how it goes. further away, racism, pick your favourite reason and you won't be completely wrong), and nobody with an informed opinion on it today defends them past maybe a "it was different times". They would be completely unacceptable today, and they are definitely not an accepted way to fight fascism. At least not among "western values" which people in here at least like to pretend to hold up. The moral high ground comes at the cost of having to endure some things without dealing back in kind. Because once we start arguing in favour of something "because they did it too", we lose all of our claim to morality. I read your post as the exact flawed reasoning that the allies had back then, which today is not only morally unacceptable, but on which the consensus at the moment is also that it doesn't work. You don't fight fascism by terrorising the population that lives under fascism. The terrorbombings of germany against the british, the allied against germany, and most recently russia vs ukraine have shown that terrorising the population only seems to strengthen their resolve against the (perceived) attacker. (Perceived attacker here is supposed to acknowledge that russia is the aggressor in the war, but from the perspective of someone living in a russia city that might get hit ukraine is the attacker in that situation, or they might believe the lies about the war being russia defending itself) To reiterate, I am not suggesting that ukraine is terrorbombing russian cities, I am trying to drive home the point that emotional reactions and rightful speeches of "fascism can only be fought by force" are inherently flawed when their end result is the justification of things we in the west generally see as unacceptable and inexcusable. Unless ofc someone wants to willingly ignore the historic evidence that they are wrong and also voluntarily remove themselves from our western values. To my knowledge, ukraine has not shown anything that points to a deliberate and systematic terrorisation of the russian population, so there is even less of a reason to come up with twisted arguments to justify these sort of actions. I understand the frustration of inaction, but this ain't the way. And as with the great orc debate, I perfectly understand if a ukrainian makes these kinds of arguments due to the situation they are in. They are still wrong, but I would not hold it against them personally. But if you are some forum warrior far away from any danger, the nicest thing I can tell you in this regard is to touch grass and come back when you are ready for our western values. Stop shooting yourself in the foot and stop abandoning the values we are supposed to defend out of a misguided desire. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4156 Posts
Thank you. I wrote a rough transcript (exclamation marks and question marks of the most critical points): (Video uploaded 1 month ago ~June/July 2023) !? - The Ukrainian question must be solved once and for all - Kyiv is a de facto weapon of NATO to wage war against us ? - It's not enough to take their weapon away from them (i.e. from NATO), they must never get this weapon back !? -- I think we should change the very paradigm of the special military operation -- The Great Patriotic War is starting -- This is no longer about defending Russia's new regions (annexed territory) -- Russia and the historic Russian Federation has been attacked! (referring to the towns of Shebekino and Grayvoron, near the border between Russia and Ukraine) -- People are being evacuated from Belgorod -- Russian citizens are constitutionally obligated to defend their Motherland! - There is the Kursk region (another town somewhat near the border), there are drones in Moscow! ? --- There has to be a different approach, it's impossible to solve this through limited means. Additional forces have to be brought in, otherwise the situation will get worse for us - Only Putin can make these decisions !!! - What comes to mind right now, I will say it again, is to destroy every living thing in the Kharkiv region as a punishment and as a deterrent So this is the key quote: "[...] destroy every living thing in the Kharkiv region as a punishment and as a deterrent [...]" That is referring to Putin's decision. It's a suggestion by the woman from the TV channel (since it's scripted, it would be written and approved by the channel). My question would be two-fold: Was this clearly suggested already prior to the waves of mobilization or only after? Are the Russian soldiers at the front free to access this channel? And how often do they realistically receive news updates from that TV station (considering they're often busy fighting)? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5569 Posts
On July 31 2023 00:53 Magic Powers wrote: It's not about them being dead. Some of them were brainwashed to such a degree that they're now dead because they thought they were fighting for a just cause. People are essentially arguing that Russian propaganda is so ineffectual that no man should be able to fall for it and that, if they end up fighting an unjust war as a consequence, they're all... incredibly stupid. Or evil. Or selfish. Or all of the above. Do you think that's reasonable? Men from entire towns being mobilized to be shipped to war. They're all stupid? Or they're all evil? Or they're all selfish? Or they're all of the above? Not one of them can be good, smart and selfless, and just tragically brainwashed? Really think about it. This would imply that Russian TV propaganda is ineffectual even in the most remote areas where they don't have access to good information. As pointed out by a number of people, their motivation has no bearing on whether they are enabling a genocide. By participating in a genocidal war they are, by definition, enabling it. It's a factual statement, not a moral judgement. Being ignorant or differently motivated is completely irrelevant. Secondly, have you ever watched or read any Russian propaganda? Russia's policy towards Ukrainians is openly genocidal. It boils down to: "Ukrainians are brainwashed Russians. We give them two options: become Russians or die." This is no different from ISIS's "convert or die" policy. Russian propaganda also talks openly about attacking civilian infrastructure, freezing the EU to death/Ukrainians into submission, launching nukes on Western capitals and kidnapping Ukrainian children to raise them as Russian (that includes teaching them how to operate drones to kill other Ukrainians - there's a piece on it by RIA). If they see this and think they're fighting for a just cause, it's entirely on them. | ||
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KwarK
United States42775 Posts
You can argue the benefits of peace once the fascists have been forcibly disarmed and their ideology discredited. Trying to argue it beforehand is how we got the invasion of Poland or Ukraine. The best way of dissuading someone from thinking might makes right is showing them that they’re not mighty and therefore that within their own ideology they are wrong. Once you’ve achieved that you can be magnanimous in victory. By refusing to abuse your power over them the way they planned to abuse their power over others you can demonstrate the virtues of peace. But only after they’ve lost their power. Not before. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23248 Posts
On July 31 2023 01:33 Liquid`Drone wrote: Guilt exists on a spectrum. You can say that Putin, not the soldiers or random russians are the ones responsible for the war, but likewise, 'innocent' should be reserved for people who did more than accept what is happening. The climate change parallel is quite apt tbh. There are some people who have pushed consumerism and consumption of fossil fuels and destruction of forests to produce more beef and these people are more responsible, but if your biological footprint is greater than 1, you are not innocent. Your vegan friend who bikes everywhere, refuses to fly, wears only second hand clothing and adds an extra layer of clothing rather than increases the heat during winter might be, but a solid 98%+ of people in western countries are not. For me the parallel that came to mind is an illegal annexation/occupation and ethnic cleansing campaign that the US and many European governments are arming, training, and subsidizing. If we were to apply some of the reasoning from the last several pages, it's a lot of pot calling the kettle black imo. | ||
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KwarK
United States42775 Posts
On July 31 2023 01:46 Magic Powers wrote: Thank you. I wrote a rough transcript (exclamation marks and question marks of the most critical points): (Video uploaded 1 month ago ~June/July 2023) !? - The Ukrainian question must be solved once and for all - Kyiv is a de facto weapon of NATO to wage war against us ? - It's not enough to take their weapon away from them (i.e. from NATO), they must never get this weapon back !? -- I think we should change the very paradigm of the special military operation -- The Great Patriotic War is starting -- This is no longer about defending Russia's new regions (annexed territory) -- Russia and the historic Russian Federation has been attacked! (referring to the towns of Shebekino and Grayvoron, near the border between Russia and Ukraine) -- People are being evacuated from Belgorod -- Russian citizens are constitutionally obligated to defend their Motherland! - There is the Kursk region (another town somewhat near the border), there are drones in Moscow! ? --- There has to be a different approach, it's impossible to solve this through limited means. Additional forces have to be brought in, otherwise the situation will get worse for us - Only Putin can make these decisions !!! - What comes to mind right now, I will say it again, is to destroy every living thing in the Kharkiv region as a punishment and as a deterrent So this is the key quote: "[...] destroy every living thing in the Kharkiv region as a punishment and as a deterrent [...]" That is referring to Putin's decision. It's a suggestion by the woman from the TV channel (since it's scripted, it would be written and approved by the channel). My question would be two-fold: Was this clearly suggested already prior to the waves of mobilization or only after? Are the Russian soldiers at the front free to access this channel? And how often do they realistically receive news updates from that TV station (considering they're often busy fighting)? You’re not really arguing in good faith here. You keep adding layer after layer of additional evidence I must provide. It’s not reasonable to argue in this way. If I were to provide evidence of the same rhetoric before mobilization you would simply ask for proof that the Russian soldiers had access to those broadcasts. If I provided that then you’d ask for proof that specific Russian soldiers heard them. | ||
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Artesimo
Germany546 Posts
On July 31 2023 01:51 KwarK wrote: You can still believe in the values of peace and tolerance while recognizing that sometimes you need 180000 tungsten balls to defend them. They’re not incompatible. The idea that using force to defend peace is somehow betraying the ideals of peace is naive and simplistic. You can argue the benefits of peace once the fascists have been forcibly disarmed and their ideology discredited. Trying to argue it beforehand is how we got the invasion of Poland or Ukraine. The best way of dissuading someone from thinking might makes right is showing them that they’re not mighty and therefore that within their own ideology they are wrong. Once you’ve achieved that you can be magnanimous in victory. By refusing to abuse your power over them the way they planned to abuse their power over others you can demonstrate the virtues of peace. But only after they’ve lost their power. Not before. Is this a response to my post? If so, quoting it instead of vague posting would be appreciated so one can actually follow the conversation, and it would be important for me to know if I need to respond. | ||
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KwarK
United States42775 Posts
On July 31 2023 01:56 GreenHorizons wrote: For me the parallel that came to mind is an illegal annexation/occupation and ethnic cleansing campaign that the US and many European governments are arming, training, and subsidizing. If we were to apply some of the reasoning from the last several pages, it's a lot of pot calling the kettle black imo. Which one are you referring to here? Israel? | ||
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