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On July 30 2023 21:24 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 20:56 Magic Powers wrote:
I want to ask people what they think of when they hear the words "enabling genocide". Because I don't think we're on the same page.
Am I enabling global warming by heating my apartment and buying products from CO2 non-neutral companies? That'd be fairly absurd in my mind. It'd imply that people are enabling all kinds of suffering that they're not responsible for.
I would not use the word "enable" this way. It means something more willful and autonomous. At least three conditions must be met, that is 1) I'm aware that my actions contribute to a cause that I'm also aware of, and 2) I have reasonable means to end my contribution without threat of harm to myself, and 3) I can be said to be mostly or entirely in control of my actions.
Without these conditions I don't think people can be considered enablers. And I don't think that these conditions all apply to all Russian soldiers regarding the genocide in Ukraine. Side topic. Based on your criteria you are enabling global warming. You are aware you contribute CO2 and other pollutants by your purchases and actions. You can change lifestyle to reduce CO2 easily. To get to 0 we can discuss if that is without threat of harm to you, but you could at worst afford climate compensation once you have lowered impact. You are entirely in control of your actions. You can decide to join the Amish as an extreme example. You can change lifestyle so you don't have to use a personal vehicle, buy "green" electricity and go vegan.
If I stopped heating my apartment during winter, that would cause harm to myself. So in that regard I'm certainly not an enabler of global warming. I can't just turn off my heating without a major health risk.
If I stopped purchasing a product of a company that is CO2 non-neutral, and if my well-being depended on that product, then I'm not the one enabling the CO2 emissions - unless there are alternatives. If there are no alternatives then the company is solely responsible.
I really think people need to understand that there's a crucial difference between being an active enabler and just being aware of the outcome of your actions. It's not the same thing.
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On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there.
If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself.
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United States42775 Posts
On July 30 2023 19:34 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 30 2023 16:51 Magic Powers wrote:
These words sound righteous on the surface, unfortunately in the context of the drone attacks in Moscow they're very misled. They aren't hitting any Nazis or their families. These are regular folk who don't want anything to do with any of this. I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence. P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Maybe I should remind you that KwarK is the same person who put all Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine under the umbrella of Nazism. He thinks if a Russian soldier shoots a Ukrainian, they're categorically disqualified from being treated as a human. I'm not making this up. In this context, do you really think that KwarK is being misrepresented now?
I never said that Nazis aren’t human. You’re absolutely misrepresenting me. Maybe let me speak for myself.
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On July 30 2023 20:43 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 20:18 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 20:04 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 19:50 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:27 Acrofales wrote:On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night.
[quote]
There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA.
[quote]
The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Blasting some poor Babushka's shop to ruins is still collateral, even if she isn't there at the time. Cool, let me know when that happens. The district hit by that drone is Moscow's equivalent of Canary Wharf. It's unlikely anyone poor suffered material damage. Also, when speaking of collateral damage, most people think of people getting injured or killed. Russia has the means to compensate people suffering material damage. It's not on Ukraine to shield ordinary Russians from the consequences of war. On July 30 2023 19:34 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night.
[quote]
There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA.
[quote]
The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Maybe I should remind you that KwarK is the same person who put all Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine under the umbrella of Nazism. He thinks if a Russian soldier shoots a Ukrainian, they're categorically disqualified from being treated as a human. I'm not making this up. In this context, do you really think that KwarK is being misrepresented now? Is this something he said or is this your interpretation? Does being a Nazi disqualify someone from being treated as a human? Is this your view or his? I'm honestly confused. KwarK believes that all Russian soldiers are Nazis. Categorically. He thinks they're all actively participating in genocide because they're actively fighting against Ukrainian soldiers. They're enablers of genocide at best, and committing genocide at worst. That is factually correct, aside from the Nazi part. That's what he thinks. It follows for him that all Russian soldiers have surrendered all of their rights, that includes the right to be treated with basic dignity and respect under any circumstances, and only if they lay down their weapons can they be considered human. To KwarK there's no distinction between Russian soldiers who are forced or coerced into participation and those who are gladly willing to kill Ukrainians. They're all the same in his mind. Is this something he said or is this your extrapolation from the earlier statement? I'm also skeptical that he makes no distinction between Russians willingly fighting in this war and those coerced. The latter are a small minority, from what I can tell. Many Russian soldiers are forced into participation. How does that make them either Nazis or enablers of genocide? Show nested quote +Many is a relative term. We're talking about a country of 140M people. Even a small fraction of the population can be considered "many". What fraction of the Russian soldiers participating in the war were coerced to it? What proportion of those refusing are doing so because of shitty commanders, lack of ammunition, food etc.? From what I can tell, they make up the vast majority of those refusing. So we're talking about a minority within a minority. Probably considerably less than 1% of the troops. To the second part: I didn't extrapolate anything. He said these things, I'm only paraphrasing what he said. I'm being quite careful with my wording. He makes no meaningful distinction between Russian soldiers if they're actively fighting in this war. To him they're all either committing genocide or enabling genocide. That is either directly or indirectly. Note my choice of words: they're all knowing participants of genocide, not ignorant. They're at best willing to actively create the conditions for genocide, and at worst they are directly committing genocide. But they are either committing a genocide or enabling it. That's a fact. And do you mind showing me where he said they are disqualified from being treated as human? I do not consider it factual to say that all Russian soldiers are enabling genocide. That would imply things about them that we cannot assume, like having full autonomy over their lives. This cannot be said about soldiers who are not in a position to refuse orders. But they can't all refuse orders, and it's not always possible to surrender to Ukrainian soldiers (even assuming that a Russian soldier is at all aware that they're on the wrong side of history, which we cannot assume due to all the Russian propaganda). A lot of the time Russian soldiers are forced to fight because they're stuck in a catch 22. Even those who are aware that a genocide is happening (which certainly isn't all of them) in many cases don't have the means to escape their predicament.
They are enabling a genocide whether they are doing so willingly or not. Their intent is completely irrelevant here.
We also had a discussion about the Russians being unable to refuse orders. Some examples of Russians doing just that (and getting punished for it) were posted. Your claim is blatantly not true. And before they were put in a position where they had to decide whether to follow the orders, they had many opportunities to not end up in Ukraine in the first place. The vast majority of them made a conscious choice to go to war. They were not snatched from the street. They were simply enticed by material gain: money, the ability to plunder or escaping prison.
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United States42775 Posts
You’ve got to remember that Magic Powers, contrary to all historical evidence, still believes in the clean Wehrmacht lie and that his grandfather fought for the Nazis. He has a personal investment in the idea that the Wehrmacht did nothing wrong. There’s no reasoning with that.
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On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself.
It's your low bar for "forced" that's the problem here. Unless you were cryogenically frozen before Feb '22 and defrosted in a trench in Donetsk stuck between Ukrainians and Russian enforcers, you had ways of avoiding ending up in that situation without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance. It's not enough for there to be any punishment or inconvenience whatsoever to absolve you, it has to be a comparable one.
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On July 30 2023 22:44 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself. It's your low bar for "forced" that's the problem here. Unless you were cryogenically frozen before Feb '22 and defrosted in a trench in Donetsk stuck between Ukrainians and Russian enforcers, you had ways of avoiding ending up in that situation without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance. It's not enough for there to be any punishment or inconvenience whatsoever to absolve you, it has to be a comparable one.
It should be stressed that outside of people snatched from the protests and sent directly to war (maybe dozens or hundreds), the punishment for ignoring the summons was a small fine (it's changing now). The choice was not between killing Ukrainians and prison. The choice was between being paid handsomely for killing Ukrainians and a small fine. The people who have participated in the war have chose the former.
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On July 30 2023 22:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 19:34 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 19:22 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 19:19 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 18:46 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:40 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On July 30 2023 18:28 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 18:01 lolfail9001 wrote:On July 30 2023 16:51 Magic Powers wrote:
These words sound righteous on the surface, unfortunately in the context of the drone attacks in Moscow they're very misled. They aren't hitting any Nazis or their families. These are regular folk who don't want anything to do with any of this. I mean, ultimately the reason they hit random people is the same reason GPS has not been working properly ever since that funny incident with drone hitting the Russian Flag in Kremlin: it is interfered to all hell so the only navigation that can reasonably work to send them into buildings that matter now is "offline" (And i can confidently tell you it is more hassle than these drones are worth). If people getting hit should be mad at anyone that would be the genius decision of Russian Ministry of Invading to use comm blockers instead of actual air defence. P. S. And how much the people that get randomly hit in process don't want to do with any of this is really up to debate even in Moscow. Pedestrians generally enjoy getting hit by drone attacks? In what world exactly? Where in this footage is the military target? Afaik, there are many governmental offices in that district. They are a valid target, especially at night. I will not stop countering KwarK's extremely misled views on terrorism against innocent people. He's talking as if these pedestrians are equally valid targets as actual Nazis. I will push back against this kind of talk 100% of the time. There is zero evidence that Ukraine was targeting innocent people and they have every incentive not to do that. We don't even know whether the drone hit its intended target as Russia is using EW to take down those drones instead of proper AA. Civilians living in the same country as the genocidal psychopath who oppresses them are not valid targets of drone attacks. There's no world in which this kind of action should be trivialized or justified. The genocide is perpetrated and cheered on by those ordinary Russians. It's not Putin who's kidnapping those Ukrainian children, committing massacres, torturing people, attacking residential areas, hospitals and shelters. It's Russian soldiers who do that and Russian people who support that. Read KwarK's comment again and tell me you agree with everything he said. Then we can discuss this further. I think he's incorrect in calling them Nazis, but otherwise I fully agree. The vast majority of Russians are imperialists. They come in different flavours - Stalinist, nationalist, and anything in-between - but they all believe that Russia has a divine right to violently subjugate smaller nations. At no point did he suggest that the civilians were the intended targets or that it would be justified. The last sentence together with the rest of his post pretty much turns it into "ends justify the means", which is not explicitly related to the drone attack, but I am past granting him the benefit of the doubt that he just felt like giving a completely unrelated speech. Its the kind of ideology that got us indiscriminate bombings in the past, and its something we do no longer see acceptable in the west. It also is incredibly bad for the credibility of "our side" as in the pro ukraine side. Just concede that it is regrettable collateral damage, maybe have a discussion on if its really a ukrainian attack and not from some other party. Maybe discuss if there was a military target that justified the risk (note on that part: being part of the government in general does not make you a valid military target according to international law. There has to be a direct connection to the war. Like an attack of the defence minister would be fine, the minister of public health and safety not so much.). Maybe discuss if the attack was really ukrainian or like others in the past potentially by ukraine affiliated parties/anti putin parties that are not under direct ukrainian control. Don't incite some weird ideological war to outright justify bombing cities. Reading KwarKs post often make me feel there is some secret TL election running that I am not aware of. They sound grand, but the contents are often vile and full of hatred once you think about them. I'm pretty sure he meant the incidents we have seen occur over the last year, and not carpet bombing Russian cities, although I could be wrong. And what regrettable collateral damage. Afaik, there were no casualties. Maybe I should remind you that KwarK is the same person who put all Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine under the umbrella of Nazism. He thinks if a Russian soldier shoots a Ukrainian, they're categorically disqualified from being treated as a human. I'm not making this up. In this context, do you really think that KwarK is being misrepresented now? I never said that Nazis aren’t human. You’re absolutely misrepresenting me. Maybe let me speak for myself.
I didn't accuse you of that. I accused you of seeing all Russian soldiers as Nazis, and of claiming that they're all actively participating in genocide.
I have proof.
And I also have proof of you subsequently trying to paint my family and myself as Nazis who support genocide.
Even other moderators told you to cool it.
On June 05 2023 02:04 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2023 23:54 Artesimo wrote:On June 04 2023 23:43 KwarK wrote:On June 04 2023 18:20 Artesimo wrote:
This is part of the reason why I have been so adamant at arguing against dehumanising russian soldiers “Won’t anyone think of the good concentration camp guards. What did they do to deserve our hate?” I knew I could trust you to come in with some hyperbolic statement that completely mischaracterises what is being said / is happening. Defending the Russian people is one thing, defending the Russian soldiers who are fighting for the right to genocide the Ukrainians is another. These people are at worst Einsatzgruppen and at best the soldiers who kill the people who fight the Einsatzgruppen.
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On June 05 2023 04:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 04:14 ZeroByte13 wrote:On June 05 2023 03:36 Simberto wrote:
If you start from the assumption that everyone wearing the uniform is involved in war crimes, you quickly get into really problematic territory. There's no use in arguing with Kwark, he made up his mind long ago and won't change it so why bother. Look, I can get behind not painting all Russians with the same brush, saying that the people of a dictatorship can't necessarily be blamed for the actions of that dictatorship. Fine, whatever. But the suggestion that we not paint all of the genocidal invading legions of that dictatorship with the same brush is a bridge too far. There are no good Russian soldiers in this war. There are good former Russian soldiers, there are good Russian deserters, there are good Russian POWs, but there aren't any good Russian soldiers. If you stand in the same uniform as the guy who recorded himself raping a toddler and you shoot the people trying to stop him raping more toddlers then you can be judged alongside him. There's no "I don't support what they're doing but I'll kill anyone who tries to prevent it". It's like how My Lai stained the entire US army (with the exception of the heroes who pointed weapons at their comrades and made them stand down at gunpoint), not just the men who did it. If you shoot the men who would have prevented the atrocity then you can't be anything other than complicit.
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On June 05 2023 06:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:31 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:26 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:22 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to remind people that Ardias is still in Russia. I (and presumably others as well) urged him to leave long ago. Would you argue that he's ok with the prospect of killing Ukrainians because he prefers taking the risk of getting drafted than leaving his family? Or would you somehow assume that he has an easy out if he gets drafted? Because people like KwarK are making this all sound really easy and obvious. I want to know how easy and obvious this all really is in reality. Please tell me how you would act in Ardias' shoes so everyone can see how morally superior you are to him. Because that's what you're thinking, right? That you're above Ardias, right? That you're better than him? I'm certainly better than you, but you probably still put on your grandfather's uniform from time to time. Germans and "not having any choice" is an iconic combo. Ardias isn't fighting and I can't speak for what he would do if he was asked to participate in a genocidal war. Let's go back to a simple example though. Two men in two different rooms are both ordered at gunpoint to kill a child. The first person, we'll call him Magic Powers, chooses kills the child to save his sorry worthless skin. The second person, we'll call him KwarK, chooses death and is killed. Which of them had a choice? There we have it. You unironically telling me that you're "certainly better than me" just screams in bold letters that, yes indeed, you're in fact better than me. I'm proud of you, KwarK, for being so incredibly introspective, while essentially calling every single Russian soldier a murderer. When the world is so black and white as it is to you, it's certainly very easy feeling superior to others. You keep bringing up child murder for some absurd reason. Do you know how many Russian soldiers have killed a child in this war? Tell us the number. Tell us what fraction of the Russian soldiers has killed a child. I'm better than you because you are spending your Sunday explaining to us your ethical framework that justifies active participation in genocide.
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On June 05 2023 07:01 KwarK wrote:The courts didn't have a moral backbone. It is interesting though that your argument has now become "if you're judging the Russian soldiers for genocide then why not also the Wehrmacht who also did it". Full mask off phase. You're confirming that you agree that they're the same and think both deserve the same absolution for their sins.
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On June 05 2023 21:15 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 15:29 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 08:07 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 07:57 Dan HH wrote:On June 05 2023 07:48 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 07:43 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm going to bed. Far too late, but better late than never. The only thing I learned today is that you're in favor of mock trials. The crimes of the Wehrmacht were neither mock nor limited to a small number of individuals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht He didn't argue that, he said "A clear majority though was found guilty, also entirely correctly". You're going too far trying to get under his skin and cause an implosion a la xDaunt, but you don't have the right person for that. Nah, he argued that the lack of convictions of the Wehrmacht meant that their hands were largely clean and therefore the Russian army, which he argued was no less blameless than the Wehrmacht, were also in the clear. No, I didn't argue that. You become (or always were) incapable of reading people's comments correctly when you turn into an over-emotional child and accuse people of being Nazi sympathizers in a blatantly dishonest and even racist fashion. The important quotes to read are the following: >I read a number of the cases >They were in fact innocent >Maybe a handful of them escaped justice >The majority of those who were found innocent were in fact innocent > A clear majority though was found guilty, also entirely correctly You literally misrepresented what I wrote and twisted it into the opposite. You were hell-bent on labelling me as a Nazi sympathizer, and you took the racist route of suspecting me based on my Austrian descent. You saw red because you got serious pushback against your preference for mock trials and that made you throw wild accusations like the over-emotional child that you are. This should not be considered acceptable behavior by a mod. The war crimes of the Wehrmacht were not perpetrated by a small number of war criminals who were all found guilty. The idea that it was limited to a small number of evil people who were found guilty and that the rest were innocent is despicable and ahistorical. The lack of convictions was political. Ultimately though we did reach an agreement that the Russian army is just as innocent as the Wehrmacht. We just disagreed about what that meant.
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On June 05 2023 06:59 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 06:57 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:44 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:31 Magic Powers wrote:On June 05 2023 06:26 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 06:22 Magic Powers wrote:
I'd like to remind people that Ardias is still in Russia. I (and presumably others as well) urged him to leave long ago. Would you argue that he's ok with the prospect of killing Ukrainians because he prefers taking the risk of getting drafted than leaving his family? Or would you somehow assume that he has an easy out if he gets drafted? Because people like KwarK are making this all sound really easy and obvious. I want to know how easy and obvious this all really is in reality. Please tell me how you would act in Ardias' shoes so everyone can see how morally superior you are to him. Because that's what you're thinking, right? That you're above Ardias, right? That you're better than him? I'm certainly better than you, but you probably still put on your grandfather's uniform from time to time. Germans and "not having any choice" is an iconic combo. Ardias isn't fighting and I can't speak for what he would do if he was asked to participate in a genocidal war. Let's go back to a simple example though. Two men in two different rooms are both ordered at gunpoint to kill a child. The first person, we'll call him Magic Powers, chooses kills the child to save his sorry worthless skin. The second person, we'll call him KwarK, chooses death and is killed. Which of them had a choice? There we have it. You unironically telling me that you're "certainly better than me" just screams in bold letters that, yes indeed, you're in fact better than me. I'm proud of you, KwarK, for being so incredibly introspective, while essentially calling every single Russian soldier a murderer. When the world is so black and white as it is to you, it's certainly very easy feeling superior to others. You keep bringing up child murder for some absurd reason. Do you know how many Russian soldiers have killed a child in this war? Tell us the number. Tell us what fraction of the Russian soldiers has killed a child. I'm better than you because you are spending your Sunday explaining to us your ethical framework that justifies active participation in genocide. That's a good one, I'll keep it in mind for when we meet and I'll ask you to repeat your words straight to my face without feeling the slightest embarrassment over it. According to you, every Russian soldier is an active participant in genocide. I'll keep that in mind. I really am beginning to suspect you kept your grandfather's uniform and this is your way of convincing yourself that he wasn't such a bad man. For some reason condemning the soldiers fighting in a genocidal war is a red line for you.
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On June 05 2023 07:19 KwarK wrote:The words of a man explaining that the Wehrmacht weren't guilty of war crimes.
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On June 05 2023 08:07 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 07:57 Dan HH wrote:On June 05 2023 07:48 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 07:43 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm going to bed. Far too late, but better late than never. The only thing I learned today is that you're in favor of mock trials. The crimes of the Wehrmacht were neither mock nor limited to a small number of individuals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht He didn't argue that, he said "A clear majority though was found guilty, also entirely correctly". You're going too far trying to get under his skin and cause an implosion a la xDaunt, but you don't have the right person for that. Nah, he argued that the lack of convictions of the Wehrmacht meant that their hands were largely clean and therefore the Russian army, which he argued was no less blameless than the Wehrmacht, were also in the clear.
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On June 05 2023 10:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2023 08:25 JimmiC wrote:On June 05 2023 08:22 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 08:15 JimmiC wrote:On June 05 2023 08:07 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 07:57 Dan HH wrote:On June 05 2023 07:48 KwarK wrote:On June 05 2023 07:43 Magic Powers wrote:
I'm going to bed. Far too late, but better late than never. The only thing I learned today is that you're in favor of mock trials. The crimes of the Wehrmacht were neither mock nor limited to a small number of individuals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht He didn't argue that, he said "A clear majority though was found guilty, also entirely correctly". You're going too far trying to get under his skin and cause an implosion a la xDaunt, but you don't have the right person for that. Nah, he argued that the lack of convictions of the Wehrmacht meant that their hands were largely clean and therefore the Russian army, which he argued was no less blameless than the Wehrmacht, were also in the clear. If I change your example to you’re in a room with a child your choice is to kill your child or have them live stream a video of your child, wife and mother raped and murdered. You get to live either way. Do you kill the child? Either way your choice leads to children dying. Are you now a child murderer? If choice A is that a child is killed and choice B is that a child is killed then I don't see where the choice is. That's not the scenario under discussion though. No if you don’t kill the child in A that child lives, it is yours that dies. And yes people families do get consequences if they do not participate. Maybe not the ones I’ve stated but it’s not like yours was exactly realistic either. [...] That's why the argument by our Austrian Wehrmacht enthusiast was so absurd. [...]
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On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself. Hundreds of thousands of Russians fled Russia to avoid conscription, they chose not to enable genocide and kill Ukrainians for their fascist government (whether they thought about this or just their personal safety is a different discussion).
The notion that a Russian soldier in a trench in Ukraine had absolutely no choice about being there is just not true.
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On July 30 2023 22:44 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself. It's your low bar for "forced" that's the problem here. Unless you were cryogenically frozen before Feb '22 and defrosted in a trench in Donetsk stuck between Ukrainians and Russian enforcers, you had ways of avoiding ending up in that situation without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance. It's not enough for there to be any punishment or inconvenience whatsoever to absolve you, it has to be a comparable one.
Ardias is a good man. He's still in Russia even though he could've technically left. He has personal reasons for that decision.
Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide?
Not, not all Russian soldiers could've avoided mobilization. Some of those who wanted to escape Russia lacked the money or other means. Others have lived in areas that know nothing but Kremlin propaganda. The latter are among the ones most commonly being mobilized because they're considered disposable and because they literally don't have access to anything outside of Russian TV propaganda.
Some of the Russian soldiers who have died were completely innocent people who got thrown into the meatgrinder. You cannot reasonably argue against that.
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On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 22:44 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself. It's your low bar for "forced" that's the problem here. Unless you were cryogenically frozen before Feb '22 and defrosted in a trench in Donetsk stuck between Ukrainians and Russian enforcers, you had ways of avoiding ending up in that situation without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance. It's not enough for there to be any punishment or inconvenience whatsoever to absolve you, it has to be a comparable one. Ardias is a good man. He's still in Russia even though he could've technically left. He has personal reasons for that decision. Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide? Not, not all Russian soldiers could've avoided mobilization. Some of those who wanted to escape Russia lacked the money or other means. Others have lived in areas that know nothing but Kremlin propaganda. The latter are among the ones most commonly being mobilized because they're considered disposable and because they literally don't have access to anything outside of Russian TV propaganda. Some of the Russian soldiers who have died were completely innocent people who got thrown into the meatgrinder. You cannot reasonably argue against that. Being ignorant of what is going on doesn't absolve you of the consequences of your actions.
Not knowing Russia is committing genocides doesn't prevent you from enabling said genocides by fighting in Ukraine.
You really really have a hard time processing this concept don't you.
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United States42775 Posts
On July 30 2023 23:07 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 22:44 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself. It's your low bar for "forced" that's the problem here. Unless you were cryogenically frozen before Feb '22 and defrosted in a trench in Donetsk stuck between Ukrainians and Russian enforcers, you had ways of avoiding ending up in that situation without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance. It's not enough for there to be any punishment or inconvenience whatsoever to absolve you, it has to be a comparable one. Ardias is a good man. He's still in Russia even though he could've technically left. He has personal reasons for that decision. Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide? Not, not all Russian soldiers could've avoided mobilization. Some of those who wanted to escape Russia lacked the money or other means. Others have lived in areas that know nothing but Kremlin propaganda. The latter are among the ones most commonly being mobilized because they're considered disposable and because they literally don't have access to anything outside of Russian TV propaganda. Some of the Russian soldiers who have died were completely innocent people who got thrown into the meatgrinder. You cannot reasonably argue against that. Being ignorant of what is going on doesn't absolve you of the consequences of your actions. Not knowing Russia is committing genocides doesn't prevent you from enabling said genocides by fighting in Ukraine. You really really have a hard time processing this concept don't you.
Russian propagandists on state tv are openly preaching genocide and ethnic cleansing. Noone in Russia doesn't know that Russia is engaged in genocide in Ukraine. They might not know the word for it but they know what the plan is. They just like that plan.
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United States42775 Posts
On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:
Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide?
Absolutely
On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:
Some of the Russian soldiers who have died were completely innocent people who got thrown into the meatgrinder. You cannot reasonably argue against that.
You cannot reasonably argue it. These are armed men entering a foreign country as part of a campaign of genocide. Their role in that genocide is to shoot anyone who tries to prevent it. They are performing that role.
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On July 30 2023 23:13 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:
Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide? Absolutely Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:
Some of the Russian soldiers who have died were completely innocent people who got thrown into the meatgrinder. You cannot reasonably argue against that. You cannot reasonably argue it. These are armed men entering a foreign country as part of a campaign of genocide. Their role in that genocide is to shoot anyone who tries to prevent it. They are performing that role.
"Russian soldiers who are fighting for the right to genocide the Ukrainians"
Is what you said. Don't gaslight me.
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On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:
Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide?
Let me get this question straight: "If someone, who COULD avoid it, goes to the frontline to participate in genocide, should he be accused of being an active participant in genocide"..?
Yes
Do you ever take a step back to read your own words?
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On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 22:44 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself. It's your low bar for "forced" that's the problem here. Unless you were cryogenically frozen before Feb '22 and defrosted in a trench in Donetsk stuck between Ukrainians and Russian enforcers, you had ways of avoiding ending up in that situation without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance. It's not enough for there to be any punishment or inconvenience whatsoever to absolve you, it has to be a comparable one. Ardias is a good man. He's still in Russia even though he could've technically left. He has personal reasons for that decision. Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide?
The condition I wrote applies all the same to people we know of (like Ardias) and to people we don't know of, why wouldn't it? If he can avoid ending up in a kill or be killed situation in Ukrainian mud without having to make a comparable sacrifice then he ought to do it.
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On July 30 2023 22:40 KwarK wrote:
You’ve got to remember that Magic Powers, contrary to all historical evidence, still believes in the clean Wehrmacht lie and that his grandfather fought for the Nazis. He has a personal investment in the idea that the Wehrmacht did nothing wrong. There’s no reasoning with that.
You've got to remember that KwarK is a liar. Magic Powers never said anything about the Wehrmacht being clean or his grandfather being innocent. That were all words KwarK put in his mouth, KwarK selectively quoted Magic Powers throughout that exchange, to paint him as some sort of nazi sympathiser. In my opinion he did this deliberately. By admission of another mod, he should have been punished for this, but didn't solely because they wanted to avoid any mod drama.
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On July 30 2023 23:29 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 23:04 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 22:44 Dan HH wrote:On July 30 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On July 30 2023 21:36 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Enable doesn't have a willful component. It just means making something possible. So yes you are enabling global warming like pretty much every human contributing greenhouse gasses in their lives.
Going to Ukrainian soil to kill Ukranians or loading rockets to fire on Ukranian buildings does enable the genocide of Ukranians. Even just paying taxes that buy rockets enables it in a way.
The morality of being forced by existing in a system, or choosing to is a bit different discussion. There's still a choice to not do harm to Ukrainians the end, even if it can come at big personal cost of prison.
Just like we humans choose to use cars because the system expects it of us, even if we know moving around in a 1200kg hunk of iron is a stupid use of energy. You can't claim no morale responsibility for enjoying the convenience of modern transport over walking/biking even if the system demands us to be able to move 100km in an hour to show up somewhere.
It's very difficult to live contrary to the system though. Mobilized definitely share less of the moral burden than the designers and proponents of this invasion/war. But their is still a moral component there. If I was forced into an active warzone and I'm being shot at by Ukrainians, I think I have the right to shoot back to defend myself. It's your low bar for "forced" that's the problem here. Unless you were cryogenically frozen before Feb '22 and defrosted in a trench in Donetsk stuck between Ukrainians and Russian enforcers, you had ways of avoiding ending up in that situation without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance. It's not enough for there to be any punishment or inconvenience whatsoever to absolve you, it has to be a comparable one. Ardias is a good man. He's still in Russia even though he could've technically left. He has personal reasons for that decision. Would you say that, if he were to be sent to the frontline, he should be accused of being an active participant in genocide? The condition I wrote applies all the same to people we know of (like Ardias) and to people we don't know of, why wouldn't it? If he can avoid ending up in a kill or be killed situation in Ukrainian mud without having to make a comparable sacrifice then he ought to do it.
So what is your conclusion about Ardias then? He decided to stay in Russia, for his own reasons. What is your judgement of him as a person? Please tell us.
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United States42775 Posts
On July 30 2023 23:31 Artesimo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 22:40 KwarK wrote:
You’ve got to remember that Magic Powers, contrary to all historical evidence, still believes in the clean Wehrmacht lie and that his grandfather fought for the Nazis. He has a personal investment in the idea that the Wehrmacht did nothing wrong. There’s no reasoning with that. You've got to remember that KwarK is a liar. Magic Powers never said anything about the Wehrmacht being clean or his grandfather being innocent. That were all words KwarK put in his mouth, KwarK selectively quoted Magic Powers throughout that exchange, to paint him as some sort of nazi sympathiser. In my opinion he did this deliberately. By admission of another mod, he should have been punished for this, but didn't solely because they wanted to avoid any mod drama.
He literally said that any member of the Wehrmacht who wasn't found guilty at Nuremberg was, by definition, innocent of all crimes. I really don't think you were following that exchange if you didn't recognize how extreme he was in his defence of the Wehrmacht.
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On July 30 2023 23:31 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2023 23:31 Artesimo wrote:On July 30 2023 22:40 KwarK wrote:
You’ve got to remember that Magic Powers, contrary to all historical evidence, still believes in the clean Wehrmacht lie and that his grandfather fought for the Nazis. He has a personal investment in the idea that the Wehrmacht did nothing wrong. There’s no reasoning with that. You've got to remember that KwarK is a liar. Magic Powers never said anything about the Wehrmacht being clean or his grandfather being innocent. That were all words KwarK put in his mouth, KwarK selectively quoted Magic Powers throughout that exchange, to paint him as some sort of nazi sympathiser. In my opinion he did this deliberately. By admission of another mod, he should have been punished for this, but didn't solely because they wanted to avoid any mod drama. He literally said that any member of the Wehrmacht who wasn't found guilty at Nuremberg was, by definition, innocent of all crimes. I really don't think you were following that exchange if you didn't recognize how extreme he was in his defence of the Wehrmacht.
I remember that you do not respect the rule of law when it doesn't suit your opinions, yes. Just like how you like to selectively apply basic human rights.
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EPT
